How Hard is to Hard For You

[canyonguru]

I have been trying to figure out what canyon i want to do in zion area July 25th. I have the date set but not the canyon. I want this to be the big one of the year but i also don't want to jump in over my head.

I have Kolob, Imlay, Boundary, and maybe Great West in mind but i just cant figure it out. The toughest canyon i have ever done is The Maze here in Las Vegas so if any of you have done this canyon you know what i am talking about.

my delama is that i want to do something big but i don't want bo beck to have to come rescue me. I really like the idea of Imlay and i would have to rent a dry suite but i have all the other gear, bat hooks and that sort of thing and i have a strong team the same guys that did the Maze with me. So just let me know what you guys think and what you did when you took that big leap into the next level of difficulty in slot canyons.

[nelsonccc]

Do Boundary one day, then Imlay the next. Boundary is easy/straightforward. Way easier than the Maze.

The Sneak-peek Imlay is pretty straightforward. granted there are lots of raps and climbs, and potholes, but nothing too complex, IMHO.

Kolob has lots of penalty points. It's long day & when combined with the MIA, you surely wouldn't be the first group to spend the night out there.

I'd hit Boundary to get the MIA under your belt. Then we'll put your posse with my posse and hit Kolob in September. We need to get all of us from Vegas up there together.

[canyonguru]

that acually would sound like a lot of fun in september i already suggested that to one of my guys. If imlay is that straight forward then maybe we will go that route. If i have to to the MIA i am thinking i might as well just do Kolob.

The Maze is a great canyon and it took us about 15 hours at a pretty leasurly pase.

[Scott Card]

The Sneak-peek Imlay is pretty straightforward. granted there are lots of raps and climbs, and potholes, but nothing too complex, IMHO.
.

Careful there. Imlay in low water conditions required some pretty good pothole escape techniques. This ain't a rookie canyon in low water conditions particularly. Better have a guy who is strong, can hook out of keepers and can toss a pack with precision. Also, many of the hook holes are mostly if not completely blown out. In short, it requires advanced pothole escape techniques and "straightforward" and "not complex" are not words I would choose for Imlay, even the Sneak route. In "full" conditions however, Imlay is a water park without too many significant challenges. But my experience is that some of those potholes drain fairly quickly. But on July 25??? Odds are that it will be in hard/mostly empty condition. Who knows. I am sure Tom can blast more info on this.

[nelsonccc]

The Sneak-peek Imlay is pretty straightforward. granted there are lots of raps and climbs, and potholes, but nothing too complex, IMHO.
.

Careful there. Imlay in low water conditions required some pretty good pothole escape techniques. This ain't a rookie canyon in low water conditions particularly. Better have a guy who is strong, can hook out of keepers and can toss a pack with precision. Also, many of the hook holes are mostly if not completely blown out. In short, it requires advanced pothole escape techniques and "straightforward" and "not complex" are not words I would choose for Imlay, even the Sneak route. In "full" conditions however, Imlay is a water park without too many significant challenges. But my experience is that some of those potholes drain fairly quickly. But on July 25??? Odds are that it will be in hard/mostly empty condition. Who knows. I am sure Tom can blast more info on this.

Maybe you're right, but I think there is sometimes a tendancy for the experienced crowd to exagerate the difficulty of these canyons. I don't feel like I'm the model of physical fitness but I've been through all of these canyons multiple times in & low/high water. They can be technical, don't get me wrong, but pothole escape techniques aren't really that difficult, for Imlay anyways. IMHO, IMHO. Most of the potholes in Imlay, even in low water, are straightforward and can be surmounted with pack tosses, hooks, and partner assists. All of which I know that Canyonguru is capable of doing and his posse is strong.

But maybe I'm just a canyon stud and don't know it yet? Or lucky? or stupid? Who knows. To each his own. Just my chunky, little opinion.

[Scott Card]

The Sneak-peek Imlay is pretty straightforward. granted there are lots of raps and climbs, and potholes, but nothing too complex, IMHO.
.

Careful there. Imlay in low water conditions required some pretty good pothole escape techniques. This ain't a rookie canyon in low water conditions particularly. Better have a guy who is strong, can hook out of keepers and can toss a pack with precision. Also, many of the hook holes are mostly if not completely blown out. In short, it requires advanced pothole escape techniques and "straightforward" and "not complex" are not words I would choose for Imlay, even the Sneak route. In "full" conditions however, Imlay is a water park without too many significant challenges. But my experience is that some of those potholes drain fairly quickly. But on July 25??? Odds are that it will be in hard/mostly empty condition. Who knows. I am sure Tom can blast more info on this.

Maybe you're right, but I think there is sometimes a tendancy for the experienced crowd to exagerate the difficulty of these canyons. I don't feel like I'm the model of physical fitness but I've been through all of these canyons multiple times in & low/high water. They can be technical, don't get me wrong, but pothole escape techniques aren't really that difficult, for Imlay anyways. IMHO, IMHO. Most of the potholes in Imlay, even in low water, are straightforward and can be surmounted with pack tosses, hooks, and partner assists. All of which I know that Canyonguru is capable of doing and his posse is strong.

But maybe I'm just a canyon stud and don't know it yet? Or lucky? or stupid? Who knows. To each his own. Just my chunky, little opinion.I hear what you are saying and Canyonguru may be in for a romp with his skills. But I still feel that it is not a beginner canyon and it does carry a 4B R IV rating for a reason. I guess you are just a stud :five: The skills you speak of, pack toss, hooking, etc. are not widely held skills and require practice IMHO before entering Imlay. They are considered advanced canyoneering skills. That last set of narrows can really chew up some time. I saw one group in there that was in on pothole for a couple of hours trying to get out. And hey, don't lump me in with the experienced crowd. Some have titles like "the Emperor", "Darth Vader", etc. I am known as "The Village Idiot" in the canyoneering community. :haha:

[Scott Card]

I guess the reason I am a little sensitive to dumbing down Imlay is that Englestead also carries a 4A IV rating. Look what has happened in Englestead recently. Respect the 4's. :nod:

[bruce from bryce]

When you guys say "The Maze" exactly what are you talking about? Thanks.

bruce from bryce
(now in LV)

[nelsonccc]

When you guys say "The Maze" exactly what are you talking about? Thanks.

bruce from bryce
(now in LV)

Icecube in Redrocks. Its the big one that comes out of Iebox canyon.

[nelsonccc]

I guess the reason I am a little sensitive to dumbing down Imlay is that Englestead also carries a 4A IV rating. Look what has happened in Englestead recently. Respect the 4's. :nod:

You're right of course. Everyone should be prepared and I agree the 4's can be quite difficult, especially if taken too lightly. But i feel if a party is prepared and equipped with the right skills then they can tackle the canyon. I guess I'm just saying to make sure to go in prepared and if you do it won't be so difficult.

[canyonguru]

Thanks for the props nelsonccc. I do think my possie is strong enough for imlay i just wanted other peoples opinions. I am just about 6'4 and around 200lbs i attend the gym 5 days a week not so say that i am buff or anything but should be able to hand the physical part of the canyon and we are planning on taking the first shuttle up canyon to get started. So we should have plenty of time weather permitting to finish the canyon. One of our guys use to rock climb a lot when he was younger so lets hope he can remember those old skills of his :2thumbs: . Thanks for the info guys and trust me we do respect the skill level and dificulty of these canyons and we always come prepared for the worst.

As for the Maze in Red Rock state park here in las vegas here is beta on the canyon. Be carefull if you attemp this canyon the Flash Flood danger is very high and the canyon is not traveled that much maybe 30 people a year from what i figure, so pay close attention to the anchor situation.
we ran into so questionable anchors spots last year.

http://www.dankat.com/swhikes/icecub.htm

[Brian in SLC]

Thanks for the props nelsonccc. I do think my possie is strong enough for imlay i just wanted other peoples opinions. I am just about 6'4 and around 200lbs i attend the gym 5 days a week not so say that i am buff or anything but should be able to hand the physical part of the canyon and we are planning on taking the first shuttle up canyon to get started. So we should have plenty of time weather permitting to finish the canyon. One of our guys use to rock climb a lot when he was younger so lets hope he can remember those old skills of his

Some of the pothole escape stuff won't care if you know how to rock climb and/or are strong. You need to be able to make a couple of hook moves in a row, possibly from blown out holes, starting from treading water. So, if your rock climber has done a bunch of sketchy aid climbing on hooks, you're golden. If not, well, good luck. Folks won't last forever treading cold water...

If were me, I'd make sure I had two bat hooks for the drilled holes, and, as a back up I'd have a hand drill to make the holes useable if need be. Also, a happy hooker, say, 15 or 20 foot worth, will make some of the reaches to the anchors go much quicker if time becomes an issue.

Gotta have both the gear and the skills to employ the gear.

Take care. Imlay isn't an "easy" canyon by any stretch. Even the "trifecta" boys had to hook a couple of times and these fellers have a gob of horse power.

Good luck and be safe...

-Brian in SLC

[Ryebrye]

Routefinding to get to imlay is moderate - if you use a gps to help you make sure you set the datum correctly (dont ask me how I know!)

MIA exit would be very tough without the assistance of someone who has done it before. Nelsoncc (also from vegas) was very good at explaining it and getting us out of it no problems.

If you rent a drysuit, dont trust it until you have tested it. We had a nasty situation caused by a weaker member of our party having a leaky drysuit and getting hypothermic towards the end of imlay. major pita. Take it through keyhole and make sure there are no leaks. If there are, bring it back and bitch about it.

I wouldnt want to do any of those canyons without someone who had done it before, just for the benefit of quicker routefinding and quicker problem solving. Should be easy to find on bogley.

[Randi]

Some of the pothole escape stuff won't care if you know how to rock climb and/or are strong. You need to be able to make a couple of hook moves in a row, possibly from blown out holes, starting from treading water. So, if your rock climber has done a bunch of sketchy aid climbing on hooks, you're golden. If not, well, good luck. Folks won't last forever treading cold water...

If were me, I'd make sure I had two bat hooks for the drilled holes, and, as a back up I'd have a hand drill to make the holes useable if need be. Also, a happy hooker, say, 15 or 20 foot worth, will make some of the reaches to the anchors go much quicker if time becomes an issue.

Gotta have both the gear and the skills to employ the gear.

Take care. Imlay isn't an "easy" canyon by any stretch. Even the "trifecta" boys had to hook a couple of times and these fellers have a gob of horse power.

Good luck and be safe...

-Brian in SLC

X2!
I've done the Maze & Imlay & I wouldn't underestimate Imlay. The maze is very straightforward, and Imlay isn't. Along with the hooking problems, I recall that there's one pack toss that can be quite difficult because you have to have a sort of curving trajectory to your toss. The debris that gets washed in and out of there, changes everything of course. Last time I was there, we had a wall of wood (which could not be efficiently climbed onto) completely blocking our way. Luckily, we were able to tear stuff out of the middle and make a hole large enough to get through.

Fun and interesting bits of work in Imlay, but as Brian said, you're doing all this while treading VERY COLD water! It takes its toll. If I were you, I wouldn't go in there with the mindset that it's gonna be easy. Better to go with the mindset that it

[Bo_Beck]

First time I hiked Imlay, we hiked from Potato Hollow down. We weren't totally prepared (with hooks, etc.). Fortunately for some earlier days practice with a lariat, we were able to lasso a small horn from a 12' deep pothole. The backside of the pothole was just level sand and even a packtoss would have been futile! The water was so deep that with a 2 person assist we still fell 6' short of the top! Hooks on subsequent trips proved very useful! Circa 1996? One consistency is inconsistency!

[nonot]

So a lasso is now recommended escape gear? :lol8:

Too bad there's no video!