Zion Permit System

[Scott Card]

Nice reports! Rangers checking permits..... :frustrated: Thank you rangers for "assisting" in my outdoor/wilderness experience with a police contact. It really makes me feel at home in the "back country" to be asked to fish out my permit. Again I ask, why the contact if a ranger only sees six people? What are they doing wrong that would warrant getting stopped and asked for a permit? It is legal to do canyons just like it is legal to fish. What gives rangers the right to assume "illegal" and ask for a permit. I keep expecting them to say with a german or russian accent, "May I see your papers." They can't do that while I am driving unless I commit a crime or I look like I am13. Must do some research on this one day. :frustrated: My current response is to put my permit in the top part of my pack and get it good and wet as soon as possible and maybe even dump a little Gatoraid on it so when asked I can hand them a wet wad of paper with pretty red gatoraid on it. Ooooo, am I mischevioius or what! :haha:

[Bo_Beck]

Nice reports! Rangers checking permits..... :frustrated: Thank you rangers for "assisting" in my outdoor/wilderness experience with a police contact. It really makes me feel at home in the "back country" to be asked to fish out my permit. Again I ask, why the contact if a ranger only sees six people? What are they doing wrong that would warrant getting stopped and asked for a permit? It is legal to do canyons just like it is legal to fish. What gives rangers the right to assume "illegal" and ask for a permit. I keep expecting them to say with a german or russian accent, "May I see your papers." They can't do that while I am driving unless I commit a crime or I look like I am13. Must do some research on this one day. :frustrated: My current response is to put my permit in the top part of my pack and get it good and wet as soon as possible and maybe even dump a little Gatoraid on it so when asked I can hand them a wet wad of paper with pretty red gatoraid on it. Ooooo, am I mischevioius or what! :haha:

Dang...I'm so sorry to burst your bubble! Bonnie is the Chief Ranger at Zion. It's great to see her mingling with the crowds. She is a super nice person and has a job to do. No mal-intent on her behalf. I'm quite glad she asked for a permit!

I'll be heading into Heaps tomorrow morning because of the permit system. I really wonder how the folks that are 1 day overdue now will feel about the permit system if they are injured or stuck? I truly hope that they just walk out under their own power, but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

[Bo_Beck]

Nice reports! Rangers checking permits..... :frustrated: Thank you rangers for "assisting" in my outdoor/wilderness experience with a police contact. It really makes me feel at home in the "back country" to be asked to fish out my permit. Again I ask, why the contact if a ranger only sees six people? What are they doing wrong that would warrant getting stopped and asked for a permit? It is legal to do canyons just like it is legal to fish. What gives rangers the right to assume "illegal" and ask for a permit. I keep expecting them to say with a german or russian accent, "May I see your papers." They can't do that while I am driving unless I commit a crime or I look like I am13. Must do some research on this one day. :frustrated: My current response is to put my permit in the top part of my pack and get it good and wet as soon as possible and maybe even dump a little Gatoraid on it so when asked I can hand them a wet wad of paper with pretty red gatoraid on it. Ooooo, am I mischevioius or what! :haha:

Dang...I'm so sorry to burst your bubble! Bonnie is the Chief Ranger at Zion. It's great to see her mingling with the crowds. She is a super nice person and has a job to do. No mal-intent on her behalf. I'm quite glad she asked for a permit!

I'll be heading into Heaps tomorrow morning because of the permit system. I really wonder how the folks that are 1 day overdue now will feel about the permit system if they are injured or stuck? I truly hope that they just walk out under their own power, but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

And I forgot to mention...Bonnie didn't stop to check our permit...she just noticed that I was with a group of folks and I hollered to her. She stopped to see how we were. I'm guessing that you've had some bad experiences? So sorry that this may be the case and hope one day you may be less harsh on yourself Scott.

[Iceaxe]

but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

I'll take bets on that.... I bet they are NOT happy with the permit system that probably caused them a late start, didn't allow them to pick their ideal day and inconvenienced them in a dozen other ways..... I bet the permit system is responsible for more rescues than it helps with....

Put all the honey you want on that biscuit.... I'm still not biting.....

And FYI.... the permit system is not a rescue system.... a check in person should be your responsibility and not that of the park...

:soapbox:

Good luck with the SAR, I hope all goes well.....

:cool2:

[Bo_Beck]

but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

I'll take bets on that.... I bet they are NOT happy with the permit system that probably caused them a late start, didn't allow them to pick their ideal day and inconvenienced them in a dozen other ways..... I bet the permit system is responsible for more rescues that it helps with....

And FYI.... the permit system is not a rescue system.... a check in person should be your responsibility and not that of the park...

:soapbox:

Good luck with the SAR, I hope all goes well.....

:cool2:

Thanks Shane, but you are wrong. They got a permit for an overnight starting Saturday. Two other groups had permits for one day hike thrus starting on sunday. One of the groups that had a one day permit for sunday has already been contacted and reported seeing the missing party in Phantom Valley Sunday morning? Hmmmmmmmm? Go figure? Why did the one day groups make it out in the time they had planned, yet the so called "Started Late" because of the permit system party get only as far as Phantom Valley in one day, get passed by the parties that started hiking 24 hours after they began, and yet are considered overdue by you because of the permit system? Oops! You lose the bet. You can pay up next time we meet.

Thanks....I'll hope the SAR doesn't happen, but if it does I appreciate your well wishes!

[Bo_Beck]

but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

I'll take bets on that.... I bet they are NOT happy with the permit system that probably caused them a late start, didn't allow them to pick their ideal day and inconvenienced them in a dozen other ways..... I bet the permit system is responsible for more rescues that it helps with....

And FYI.... the permit system is not a rescue system.... a check in person should be your responsibility and not that of the park...

:soapbox:

Good luck with the SAR, I hope all goes well.....

:cool2:

Thanks Shane, but you are wrong. They got a permit for an overnight starting Saturday. Two other groups had permits for one day hike thrus starting on sunday. One of the groups that had a one day permit for sunday has already been contacted and reported seeing the missing party in Phantom Valley Sunday morning? Hmmmmmmmm? Go figure? Why did the one day groups make it out in the time they had planned, yet the so called "Started Late" because of the permit system party get only as far as Phantom Valley in one day, get passed by the parties that started hiking 24 hours after they began, and yet are considered overdue by you because of the permit system? Oops! You lose the bet. You can pay up next time we meet.

Thanks....I'll hope the SAR doesn't happen, but if it does I appreciate your well wishes!

Well....You don't owe me on the bet. They just came out. 3 days in Heaps because of a flawed permit system that caused them a late start! Thanks for the well wishes.

[ratagonia]

"being served"

[Ryebrye]

Someone (who I wont name to avoid dragging into this discussion) brought up an interesting scenario.

Do you need to have a permit to stand next to a car? Do you need to have a permit to hike with a backpack wearing a wetsuit? last I checked - no, you don't.

I have problems with the permit system in general - using the express system makes it a lot easier - but it could be enhanced if walk-ons were made available after a certain time 2 days in advance to express people.

The problem I have is with them being checked for the permit whenever they feel like it. Seriously? Just because I have a backpack on and I'm at my car I'm a suspected criminal?

The rangerettes at the top of the tunnel no longer check for permits for pine creek because they aren't law enforcement rangers - which has improved things a bit...

<rant>
So when a ranger asks you for your permit when you are at your car, what if you just say "No thank you. Right now I'm just standing here and that doesn't require a permit. If you see me doing something that does require a permit, I'll be more than happy to assist you in your legal responsibilities and show you such a permit."

The other question is... When you are being questioned by a ranger to determine if you need a citation - what happened to your right to remain silent?
</rant>

And bo - I have the upmost respect for the SAR teams and the quality of the teams in Zion. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

[Ryebrye]

"being served"

Wow. No wonder we had a late start into Spry. We were damn near killed by a flash flood because of that permit line. (Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration... but it DID start raining on us...)

I was in a Target the other day buying a thing of tooth paste. There were 4 people in line in front of me - so they opened another register and I was able to quickly buy my $1.25 item.

Just saying...

[theking648]

IMO... I think an atm system could be helpful in this case. come up to a touch screen computer where you'll be able to see if there is a spot open on a canyon or not. if there is you put your credit card in and buy the permit and it prints it off. :ne_nau:

[Ryebrye]

IMO... I think an atm system could be helpful in this case. come up to a touch screen computer where you'll be able to see if there is a spot open on a canyon or not. if there is you put your credit card in and buy the permit and it prints it off. :ne_nau:

Never gonna happen. How would the system shame you and look at you in a condescending way if it was late in the day?

[Don]

IMO... I think an atm system could be helpful in this case. come up to a touch screen computer where you'll be able to see if there is a spot open on a canyon or not. if there is you put your credit card in and buy the permit and it prints it off. :ne_nau:

Never gonna happen. How would the system shame you and look at you in a condescending way if it was late in the day?

Give it the mournful whistle R2D2 made when Han and Luke were stuck out overnight on Hoth.

[Iceaxe]

There is always hope.... Teton NP had a crappy climbing permit system similar to the crappy canyoneering permit system in Zion. Teton eventually discovered they were causing more problems than they were solving and scrapped the climbing permits (you still need a permit in Teton to camp overnight).

:cool2:

[Bo_Beck]

"being served"

Good point! I do remember years ago when Mystery Canyon had a much larger quota (or no quota at all for that matter); Lets see? I think there was a bottleneck at the last two drops. The rain came. I think there were 30 or so folks (3 of whom were employees at my work) wishing they could leave? So...does it make sense to make a free for all "we own the park" system? You know..that would be fine. I know many others do. I never said the permit "system" is the best system. What exactly do you suggest Tom? Get rid of the permits? I know Shane and many others think this would be great. The way I see it.....you want to get rid of the "backcountry experience"? get rid of permits and you'll see everyone you ever wanted (and not wanted) to see (now thats a true backcountry experience). Tell me Tom...what is the resolve? Should there be 18, 24, 36, 48, 96, unlimited...how many should be allowed?
No...I never said the permit system is perfect, nor will it ever be. Maybe you can enlighten me as to what the perfect system is? Can't you get a permit for a canyon as a walk in the day before? I think some permits are available online? You couldn't get one of the online permits? Come the day before then and get it. Oh I see! You can't get there the day before, so you must wait until the window opens that morning. So open the window at midnight? Well...I went to the window Sunday morning at 7AM and waited until it opened to get my Pincreek Permit. There were 5 people in front of me. the guys in the front of the line had been there since 4AM to pick up permits. They got them . If the window had opened at midnight...I'm sure they would have been there. How would you have felt If you had shown up at 1AM and there were 6 folks ahead of you. You wanted a simple walk-in for Mystery. The group in front of you pulled them all when the window opened at Midnight. Your backup was Imlay..the next group pulled those permits....hmmmm? what next? I really don't have a clue? Enlighten me please?

I went 5 years ago and climbed the NE Buttress on Whitney. I got a permit 4 months in advance. It took some planning and re-arranging of my schedule, but it was an awesome experience. I could have imagined 9 fixed ropes on the climb to accomodate the unlimited quota of climbers, but it was much more enjoyable to fix my own.

[Scott Card]

I'll be heading into Heaps tomorrow morning because of the permit system.
I would have been heading into Heaps last Saturday but was aced out of it because of the permit system. Yes. That is a fact. Packs packed and two buddies already in Zion to get a permit. I was buying food and planning on attending either the Whiptail grill event or the Potluck. Then, I got the call to stay home because the permits were all taken. Priceless system (sarcasm intended).


I really wonder how the folks that are 1 day overdue now will feel about the permit system if they are injured or stuck? I truly hope that they just walk out under their own power, but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

I always leave my plans with my wife. She is plenty worried and will take care of business if I am over due. Others I go with do the same. I don't rely on the park permit system at all for any part of my enjoyment. It gets in the way with the lines, late starts and racing from Northern Utah to get to the permit window before they close. I even got a ticket two years ago trying to get a red permit to "get" to park my truck at the grotto to get a very early start for Heaps. I just don't buy most of the logic behind the system and the utter lack of logic behind the limits. MHO

[Scott Card]

And I forgot to mention...Bonnie didn't stop to check our permit...she just noticed that I was with a group of folks and I hollered to her. She stopped to see how we were. I'm guessing that you've had some bad experiences? So sorry that this may be the case and hope one day you may be less harsh on yourself Scott.
Harsh on myself???? :haha: That comment rubs me wrong. Here is why. I am sure Bonnie is a great person. I don't hate anyone and I have always tried to be polite, sometimes direct but never disrespectful to the rangers. I know they have a job and a difficult one at that. Bad experience you ask? Yes. I have moaned about a couple before on this site and the Yahoo site. Have I ever been cited? NO. Have I ever been busted for doing anything wrong in Zion? NO. The most recent bad experience was a result of some junior detectives trying to put two and two together and come up with six. The logic behind them stopping me and getting on me was because of the town I live in and the fact that others from my town, not related to me/ my group, were in the Subway on the same day. I knew them but I was not part of them. I didn't hike with them nor did I drive with them. So, no, if you were inferring with your last comment that I have been in trouble, that is not correct. No need to be harsh on myself as I have done nothing wrong. No guilt, therefore no reason to be harsh on "myself". It is simply the system and the enforcement of it that drives me nuts. Yes, I am very critical or harsh on the system.

Now Bo, I respect you immensely. I admire your SAR experiences. I want to buy stuff from your store. I have thanked you for what you do a couple of times before and I thank you again now. THANKS BO. I mean that sincerely. But you have to understand that you are different from me, Joe Mapleton, when it comes to the Park service. The inference and the assumptions of the rangers when they come in contact with you and me is different. Sorry to rant and derail the thread (split it??) but you kinda called me out and you also defended the system. I think differently about the system. Friends? :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

[b]The Zion Permit System is your typical bureaucratic train wreak

[Ryebrye]

[quote=Iceaxe]has created a large group of rogue canyoneers who don

[jhillock]

My group had a recent unpleasant run in with the park rangers about a month ago just after we had completed The Subway. We did the hike from the top down leaving one car at the bottom and taking two cars up to the top. There were 6 of us in our group.

The first 4 of us had just finished the hike out and reached our car in the parking lot. We were in the process of taking off our backpacks and shoes when a ranger pulled in got out of his truck and came right to us. He asked to see our permit and I very politely pulled it out and gave it to him. He then went on his way and it was no big deal at this point. After the ranger got done checking all the cars in the lot and was getting back in his SUV the other two straglers of our group came strolling down the trail to the parking lot. The ranger jumped out of his car and headed toward them. At this point I yelled, "Its cool they are with us" but the ranger asked to see our permit again...kind of a pain in the A#@ but no big deal, so I showed him the permit again.

By this time the 4 of us that were waiting at the top were sitting on our cooler in the shade drinking a celebritory beer as we waited for our other two hikers to arrive. After the ranger checked our permit for the second time he noticed us drinking beers and now said that he was going to need to see all of our ID's. WHO THE HELL CARRIES THEIR ID THROUGH THE SUBWAY or any other canyon for that matter?? I had my ID because my car was at the bottom but no one else had their ID's. I thought he would check my ID and see that I was 26 and give the rest in our group the benefit of the doubt on being over 21....everyone who was drinking a beer was 25 or older. Nope, the ranger pulled out a pen and paper and took down everyones information and told us to wait there until he had ran all of our info. This took him about 10 or 15 minutes to do, which sucked because by this point we were all done with our beers and ready to hit the road back to our cars at the top. He finally came back and said we were all good, but he then hounded us about not driving if we had been drinking. Two guys in our group don't drink so we told him they would be driving to get our car at the top. Problem is we had two cars at the top so one of us that had had ONE DAMN BEER was going to have to drive a car down....not a big deal it was one utah strength beer.

That ranger finally left us alone, but by the time we had loaded up the gear in the car and the 3 people headed up to get the cars were getting ready to pull out another ranger pulled in and made us show him our permit once again!!! After this harassment they were finally able to pull out and go get the cars at the top.

After sitting at the bottom for about 15 or 20 mins two of our cars finally pulled into the parking lot. We asked where the third car was and they said the ranger that had first talked to us, asked to see our permit twice, and then harassed us about the beer had passed them on their way down and flipped around and pulled over the guy that had had the one beer. 20 minutes later the third car finally pulled into the parking lot. He said the ranger had made him do a complete field sobriety test, and then breathalized him. He passed everything with flying colors.

This was a shitty way to end a great day of hiking the subway. The rangers treated us like criminals from the moment they encountered us, and we had done nothing wrong. We had drove down and gotten the permit just before the permit desk closed the night before our trip(very inconvienent), we carried it with us throught the canyon, and showed it to them 3 damn times.

Not fun, but we didn't let it ruin our day....still had a great time in the subway. Sorry for the rant.

[Scott Card]

Same parking lot where I received the most grief I speak of. Similar treatment sans the beer issue. Lovely. :frustrated: Other bad encounters were at the end of the Narrows.

[Felicia]

Two years ago, we had made the commitment to the trail to the Subway early in the morning. As we hiked along, we were chatting and laughing as we moved across the slick rock and dropped down into the valley - and I swear to gawd - a range jumped out from under a bush and blocked the trail. I was in the front of the group - he scared the crap out of me! I think I scared him when I screamed!

He wanted to see the permit - gave me crap for having a permit for 8 and only having 6 in the group. I explained that we did not know the the other two were not going to show until, they did not show......I got the lecture about how two more people could have enjoyed the canyon if I had been more considerate.

Instead of hiding behind bushes etc. - station someone at the entrance, check all permits, call in the no shows and then leave me alone!

[Scott Card]

Hiding in a bush???? :ghost: :roll: :nono: Amazing.....

[Iceaxe]

I've heard rumors of canyons in zion that are supposedly "heaps quality" - and I'm not suggesting anyone ever mention these in public so we can all suddenly stand in line to get into them - but if someone wanted to do one, could you even get a permit for one?

If there was such a canyon.... the rule would be.... don't let the rangers know about it or they will start requiring a permit to descend it...... It's pretty simple really..... if the rangers don't know about it they don't patrol it and they don't ask for permits.

On anther note.... you can ask for a permit for any canyon or area and the rangers will be happy to take your money and issue you a permit. Zion issues quite a few permits for Fat Man's Misery, even though a permit is not required as the canyon is outside the park. I jumped Ranger Ray about that one day and his response was something like "yeah, we know you don't need one but we like to keep track of who is going where".



Hiding in a bush???? :ghost: :roll: :nono: Amazing.....

That's how I met rangerette Cindy Purcell the first time.... she jumped out from behind a bush in Mystery and scared the shit out of me.....


:eek1:

[Ryebrye]

He wanted to see the permit - gave me crap for having a permit for 8 and only having 6 in the group. I explained that we did not know the the other two were not going to show until, they did not show......I got the lecture about how two more people could have enjoyed the canyon if I had been more considerate.

If they split the "from the top" and "from the bottom" permits up and allowed 18 from the top per day they could still allow about 40 from the bottom no problem. That would be a net difference of 8 per day in their quota (58 more) - which would allow up to 2,920 more people per year to "enjoy the canyon" or up to 14,600 over a 5 year period.

Although I'm guessing if they split permits like that the 'from the top' would be less popular and people might be get those once the "from the bottom" ones ran out and would get themselves in a bad situation.


That's how I met rangerette Cindy Purcell the first time.... she jumped out from behind a bush in Mystery and scared the shit out of me.....

Was her gun drawn? :2gun: She isn't at Zion any more is she?



If there was such a canyon.... the rule would be.... don't let the rangers know about it or they will start requiring a permit to descend it...... It's pretty simple really..... if the rangers don't know about it they don't patrol it and they don't ask for permits.

What about canyons like icebox that are way out of the way? more people do Keyhole in a day than do icebox in a year I'm guessing...


On anther note.... you can ask for a permit for any canyon or area and the rangers will be happy to take your money and issue you a permit. Zion issues quite a few permits for Fat Man's Misery, even though a permit is not required as the canyon is outside the park. I jumped Ranger Ray about that one day and his response was something like "yeah, we know you don't need one but we like to keep track of who is going where".

Yeah, I think that is funny of them. I wonder if you can ask for a permit for a group size of 100 for Fat Mans Misery and see what they say - since it's not like they have any control over group size... etc.

I also wonder - if you are paying for a Misery permit - and someone had a freak accident and needed SAR - It wouldn't be Zion's SAR team would it? even with Englestead (which you have to get a zion permit for) doesn't the county SAR deal with it since the technical part is outside the park?

So for Fat Mans Misery - they really aren't giving you anything but a print out for your money - since it's not like you are even buying your chance at a Zion-lead rescue or anything.

[jman]

I also wonder - if you are paying for a Misery permit - and someone had a freak accident and needed SAR - It wouldn't be Zion's SAR team would it? even with Englestead (which you have to get a zion permit for) doesn't the county SAR deal with it since the technical part is outside the park?


now that's a good question. Property is such a big-deal. I use to work for the BLM in St. George and you would jump through so many hoops trying to put out a fire on private, or state land. IE There is a fire on State Land, not BLM, you then have to call the State asking for permission and how much money they will allocate to fighting the fire. If none, burn it all and no suppression, until it hits BLM land. If there's State approval, they will tell you whether you can bring in heavy machinery or just hand crews to fight the fire, or you can put out the fire and not be fully compensated for your fight. Kinda strange... Maybe they have changed it now.

But back to your question - I would guess Zion (probably 1st to be notified of the incident) would just redirect it to the County and thus Zion can save on resources, but then again, its human life we are talking about.

[ratagonia]

My group had a recent unpleasant run in with the park rangers about a month ago just after we had completed The Subway. We did the hike from the top down leaving one car at the bottom and taking two cars up to the top. There were 6 of us in our group.

The first 4 of us had just finished the hike out and reached our car in the parking lot. We were in the process of taking off our backpacks and shoes when a ranger pulled in got out of his truck and came right to us. He asked to see our permit and I very politely pulled it out and gave it to him. He then went on his way and it was no big deal at this point. After the ranger got done checking all the cars in the lot and was getting back in his SUV the other two straglers of our group came strolling down the trail to the parking lot. The ranger jumped out of his car and headed toward them. At this point I yelled, "Its cool they are with us" but the ranger asked to see our permit again...kind of a pain in the A#@ but no big deal, so I showed him the permit again.

By this time the 4 of us that were waiting at the top were sitting on our cooler in the shade drinking a celebritory beer as we waited for our other two hikers to arrive. After the ranger checked our permit for the second time he noticed us drinking beers and now said that he was going to need to see all of our ID's. WHO THE HELL CARRIES THEIR ID THROUGH THE SUBWAY or any other canyon for that matter?? I had my ID because my car was at the bottom but no one else had their ID's. I thought he would check my ID and see that I was 26 and give the rest in our group the benefit of the doubt on being over 21....everyone who was drinking a beer was 25 or older. Nope, the ranger pulled out a pen and paper and took down everyones information and told us to wait there until he had ran all of our info. This took him about 10 or 15 minutes to do, which sucked because by this point we were all done with our beers and ready to hit the road back to our cars at the top. He finally came back and said we were all good, but he then hounded us about not driving if we had been drinking. Two guys in our group don't drink so we told him they would be driving to get our car at the top. Problem is we had two cars at the top so one of us that had had ONE DAMN BEER was going to have to drive a car down....not a big deal it was one utah strength beer.

That ranger finally left us alone, but by the time we had loaded up the gear in the car and the 3 people headed up to get the cars were getting ready to pull out another ranger pulled in and made us show him our permit once again!!! After this harassment they were finally able to pull out and go get the cars at the top.

After sitting at the bottom for about 15 or 20 mins two of our cars finally pulled into the parking lot. We asked where the third car was and they said the ranger that had first talked to us, asked to see our permit twice, and then harassed us about the beer had passed them on their way down and flipped around and pulled over the guy that had had the one beer. 20 minutes later the third car finally pulled into the parking lot. He said the ranger had made him do a complete field sobriety test, and then breathalized him. He passed everything with flying colors.

This was a shitty way to end a great day of hiking the subway. The rangers treated us like criminals from the moment they encountered us, and we had done nothing wrong. We had drove down and gotten the permit just before the permit desk closed the night before our trip(very inconvienent), we carried it with us throught the canyon, and showed it to them 3 damn times.

Not fun, but we didn't let it ruin our day....still had a great time in the subway. Sorry for the rant.

Superintendent
Zion National Park
Springdale UT 84767

and, your congressman

T :moses:

[Bo_Beck]

And I forgot to mention...Bonnie didn't stop to check our permit...she just noticed that I was with a group of folks and I hollered to her. She stopped to see how we were. I'm guessing that you've had some bad experiences? So sorry that this may be the case and hope one day you may be less harsh on yourself Scott.
Harsh on myself???? :haha: That comment rubs me wrong. Here is why. I am sure Bonnie is a great person. I don't hate anyone and I have always tried to be polite, sometimes direct but never disrespectful to the rangers. I know they have a job and a difficult one at that. Bad experience you ask? Yes. I have moaned about a couple before on this site and the Yahoo site. Have I ever been cited? NO. Have I ever been busted for doing anything wrong in Zion? NO. The most recent bad experience was a result of some junior detectives trying to put two and two together and come up with six. The logic behind them stopping me and getting on me was because of the town I live in and the fact that others from my town, not related to me/ my group, were in the Subway on the same day. I knew them but I was not part of them. I didn't hike with them nor did I drive with them. So, no, if you were inferring with your last comment that I have been in trouble, that is not correct. No need to be harsh on myself as I have done nothing wrong. No guilt, therefore no reason to be harsh on "myself". It is simply the system and the enforcement of it that drives me nuts. Yes, I am very critical or harsh on the system.

Now Bo, I respect you immensely. I admire your SAR experiences. I want to buy stuff from your store. I have thanked you for what you do a couple of times before and I thank you again now. THANKS BO. I mean that sincerely. But you have to understand that you are different from me, Joe Mapleton, when it comes to the Park service. The inference and the assumptions of the rangers when they come in contact with you and me is different. Sorry to rant and derail the thread (split it??) but you kinda called me out and you also defended the system. I think differently about the system. Friends? :2thumbs:

Now I must offer my sincere apologies. It's very easy for me to see what I believe is a blatant attack directed at park staff most likely because of my somewhat unique relationship within Zion National Park. It is easy for me to be one-sided. I am truly interested to know what others experiences are within the park. I love to hear all of the "positive" stories, but when it becomes "negative", up comes my guard. I too can see by virtue of some experiences that the permit system can and has caused grief. I reflect to my earlier days before I became a volunteer-in-park "VIP". Hiking required no permits. There was no problem. Climbing the big walls required no permit (unless bivying). There wasn't and still isn't a problem.
After attending (being invited) to several Backcountry Planning sessions that were solicited as "public input sessions" before and during the presented Backcountry Resource Management Planning Phase, I could see that there were going to be changes that would require concessions from most all of the user groups. During the meetings strong opinions were voiced. Yes...many groups felt betrayed, but others saw the need for changes. Are "canyoneers" being singled out ? Maybe?

I still take the stance that "Canyons" need to be restricted. I guess that I jumped on board the "Canyoneering" scene "Rap and Swim Kiddies" of Zion NP a bit before "Canyoneering" was stigmatized as the adventure activity that it now holds. I enjoyed most of the "Zion Classics" by myself before many even knew that a rope and harness would allow you to explore their depths. No, I'm not a pioneer, nor was I the first to realize this possibility, but I have seen a DRAMATIC increase in visitation by impact and confrontation. It hasn't detracted in my interest for hiking in ZNP, but I certainly have seen how it can become an inconvenience both to time restraints and personal safety. I do see flaws with the current permitting process, but I also believe that eliminating a permit system would create a much compounded problem now and in the future. I look at the recent accidents occuring in canyons such as Englestead as an example. It seems to me that more folks are hopping on board the "canyoneering scene" ill prepared? Englestead? Super long drop or multi-pitch rappel and people are showing no fear? Mystery? Dang...what an easy canyon or so supposed; bottlenecking with 100 new "canyoneers on a busy saturday? It's just hard for me to see what I still consider a "Zion Classic" turn into a social playground?

I cannot make excuses for the "sour experiences" or "unpleasant encounters" others may have had, but can only hope that these events are minimal and everyone can drive home exhausted with a grin on their faces.

Again, I apologize if I seem naive and defensive, but I do take stance in what I believe as a system that acts as the lesser of evils.

[ratagonia]

Now I must offer my sincere apologies. It's very easy for me to see what I believe is a blatant attack directed at park staff most likely because of my somewhat unique relationship within Zion National Park. It is easy for me to be one-sided. I am truly interested to know what others experiences are within the park. I love to hear all of the "positive" stories, but when it becomes "negative", up comes my guard. I too can see by virtue of some experiences that the permit system can and has caused grief. I reflect to my earlier days before I became a volunteer-in-park "VIP". Hiking required no permits. There was no problem. Climbing the big walls required no permit (unless bivying). There wasn't and still isn't a problem.
After attending (being invited) to several Backcountry Planning sessions that were solicited as "public input sessions" before and during the presented Backcountry Resource Management Planning Phase, I could see that there were going to be changes that would require concessions from most all of the user groups. During the meetings strong opinions were voiced. Yes...many groups felt betrayed, but others saw the need for changes. Are "canyoneers" being singled out ? Maybe?

I still take the stance that "Canyons" need to be restricted. I guess that I jumped on board the "Canyoneering" scene "Rap and Swim Kiddies" of Zion NP a bit before "Canyoneering" was stigmatized as the adventure activity that it now holds. I enjoyed most of the "Zion Classics" by myself before many even knew that a rope and harness would allow you to explore their depths. No, I'm not a pioneer, nor was I the first to realize this possibility, but I have seen a DRAMATIC increase in visitation by impact and confrontation. It hasn't detracted in my interest for hiking in ZNP, but I certainly have seen how it can become an inconvenience both to time restraints and personal safety. I do see flaws with the current permitting process, but I also believe that eliminating a permit system would create a much compounded problem now and in the future. I look at the recent accidents occuring in canyons such as Englestead as an example. It seems to me that more folks are hopping on board the "canyoneering scene" ill prepared? Englestead? Super long drop or multi-pitch rappel and people are showing no fear? Mystery? Dang...what an easy canyon or so supposed; bottlenecking with 100 new "canyoneers on a busy saturday? It's just hard for me to see what I still consider a "Zion Classic" turn into a social playground?

I cannot make excuses for the "sour experiences" or "unpleasant encounters" others may have had, but can only hope that these events are minimal and everyone can drive home exhausted with a grin on their faces.

Again, I apologize if I seem naive and defensive, but I do take stance in what I believe as a system that acts as the lesser of evils.

And... it is not a simple question of "This Permit System" or "NO Permit System". The system we have is big and intrusive and cantankerous- and unnecessary. A much smaller system with a lighter intrusion on the canyoneering experience could fulfill all the objectives of the Park managment.

more: http://canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Bo, you have never really had to deal with the permit system on the same level as the rest of us. You are never part of the quota restrictions so you are never denied a canyon. And picking up a permit for you normally consists of calling the backcountry desk and leaving a hand written note on your dashboard..... the main reason you stop by the VC at all is so you can bullshit with your buddies..... Yeah, I can see how the current permit system does not inconvenience you..... I'd probably be pretty happy with the system if the rules were the same for me.

And I'm not bitch that SAR and park employees get special treatment, its just part of the game.... but I find it interesting that you defend a system that you have never had to deal with like the rest of us tourists....

Someone like you is actually part of the problem.... you carry some weight with the Zion rangers.... so they hear you say "the system is not bad" and they listen.... never really noticing that your have never dealt with the "real" permit system.... Someone like you could also be a help... listen to what we are saying..... not one of us "tourists" is happy with the system. That is the message the park needs to hear.... What you say to the park is worth at least 10 of what I say to the park....

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

Bo, you have never really had to deal with the permit system on the same level as the rest of us. You are never part of the quota restrictions so you are never denied a canyon. And picking up a permit for you normally consists of calling the backcountry desk and leaving a hand written note on your dashboard..... the main reason you stop by the VC at all is so you can bullshit with your buddies..... Yeah, I can see how the current permit system does not inconvenience you..... I'd probably be pretty happy with the system if the rules were the same for me.

And I'm not bitch that SAR and park employees get special treatment, its just part of the game.... but I find it interesting that you defend a system that you have never had to deal with like the rest of us tourists....

Someone like you is actually part of the problem.... you carry some weight with the Zion rangers.... so they hear you say "the system is not bad" and they listen.... never really noticing that your have never dealt with the "real" permit system.... Someone like you could also be a help... listen to what we are saying..... not one of us "tourists" is happy with the system. That is the message the park needs to hear....

:cool2:

I'm not sure that is really fair to Bo, Mr. Ice, but...

I, also, do not really have much problems with the permit system, personally. I rarely do the popular canyons, and when I do, I have plenty of choices over which ones I do. I live nearby, so I can spend 2 hours and go get a permit if I REALLY need to. I do not get special treatment, but I know more about the park than most, so I can meet my expectations by adjusting them to fit what I know I can get...

My issues are philosophical and political. Wilderness is about freedom. The current over-bearing permit system is against that principal and - the biggest beef - is unnecessary and counterproductive.

I encourage people to complain about the permit system often and loudly, but ONLY to the Superintendents office. Not to the backcountry desk people, and not to the LE rangers. These people are doing their jobs as set out by their supervisors. Complain to the supervisors.

Tom :moses:

[Reedus]

You can bet your ass if I drove all the way down to Zion to do Heaps or any other canyon I had planned out in advance and the permits were taken... I"d have poached the muthaeffa and wiped my ass with the ticket if issued one. Damn I hate bureaucratic asshats.

[Bo_Beck]

Bo, you have never really had to deal with the permit system on the same level as the rest of us. You are never part of the quota restrictions so you are never denied a canyon. And picking up a permit for you normally consists of calling the backcountry desk and leaving a hand written note on your dashboard..... the main reason you stop by the VC at all is so you can bullshit with your buddies..... Yeah, I can see how the current permit system does not inconvenience you..... I'd probably be pretty happy with the system if the rules were the same for me.

And I'm not bitch that SAR and park employees get special treatment, its just part of the game.... but I find it interesting that you defend a system that you have never had to deal with like the rest of us tourists....

Someone like you is actually part of the problem.... you carry some weight with the Zion rangers.... so they hear you say "the system is not bad" and they listen.... never really noticing that your have never dealt with the "real" permit system.... Someone like you could also be a help... listen to what we are saying..... not one of us "tourists" is happy with the system. That is the message the park needs to hear.... What you say to the park is worth at least 10 of what I say to the park....

:cool2:

Quite contrary to what you hear or believe, I have had to deal with the Zion permit system. It has been in recent years that the park has afforded me the opportunity of hiking "permitted" canyons with the understanding that I would not be drawing from the existing use limits. I like to believe that in some way I have earned that token of appreciation, and they (the park staff) realize that having someone that is familiar with the canyons, practiced in the descent of the canyons, and the fact that they (the park) have invested a lot of time and money training me in NPS Rescue protocol and techniques, that maybe I might continue to be an asset to them when needed?

I defend the system because I have seen canyons in the park in my earlier days go from virtually no visitation and very little impact to major "trade routes" with high visitation and very high impact. I admit...I was and am part of that visitation and impact. I must admit that I preffered earlier days of my visitation when I had more of the first descent, backcountry feel even if I wasn't close to being the first descencionist. I did see the canyons grow in popularity before restrictions were ever placed on them. There wasn't a trail in Left Fork. There wasn't a trail in Right Fork. There wasn't a trail in Mystery. There wasn't a trail in Behunin. There wasn't a trail in Heaps. so on, so on, so on...... I believe that without a limitation in these now "trade routes" that impact would deter from anyones experience. Whether by trash, social trails, crowding and noise or all of the above, and what I seem to hear is that people are desiring a "backcountry" experience without interference from beaurocracy. I ask....who is going to prevent overuse and trashing of the canyons that we all seem to admire? Shane...have you been involved in any NP/Access Fund cleanup days in Zion? I have and have worn rubber gloves and picked up toilet paper, dirty underwear, general garbage, and sanded graffiti off the walls in the Narrows. I took a group through the Subway on my birthday 2 years ago ( I had never asked the park for a permit for 12 before) and said that I would be glad to take gloves and a trash sack and cleanup on the way. Just after the slab bowl in Russell Gulch I picked up a pair of adult underwear that apparently the guy had shit himself and left in the middle of the trail. I don't pat myself on the back..I just hope that the next party through might appreciate that they didn't have to step in shit on a hike that they had waited so long to experience by dealing with a "crappy" permit system. No...I side with permits not with bias of special treatment, I agree because I see what I see. I have dealt with permits all of my life. Some I agree with, some I don't. I still abide by them or I don't visit. Snow Canyon SP has much more rigid restrictions than Zion will ever see. I don't go there as often as I did in earlier days, but when I do I abide by their restrictions.

I carry exactly the same weight as you when it comes to the permit system. I have expressed my understanding and concern of the dissatisfaction there currently is with the permit system to Ray on numerous occasions. He DOES understand that there are problems. He hasn't felt it necessary to explain to me what they plan to do about it if anything at all. On one occasion several years ago I asked to hike Mystery Canyon when the water was above what they had deemed safe in the Narrows. I believe that the max allowed at that time was 120cfs? Tanya and I hiked Mystery when the river was at I believe 170cfs. I reported to Ray that I felt it safe at this level. He didn't agree, but I did see that with some thought he decided that "canyoneers" that had the ability to descend Mystery or Imlay, would certainly have the experience to handle 140cfs. Did he go out on a limb? I have no idea? It seems to me that the "experienced kayakers" this year got in trouble at just over 150cfs? Where does he draw the line?

I am a volunteer in Zion and I know they appreciate what I have done for them in the past, but that is all. Yes they give me some leeway that the "general public" doesn't enjoy, and I'm very grateful for this, but keep in mind that I understand and have dealt with those same problems you deal with. I can only hope that someday a happy solution might come about that works for all.

[Ryebrye]

Just after the slab bowl in Russell Gulch I picked up a pair of adult underwear that apparently the guy had shit himself and left in the middle of the trail.

Can I get those back, by the way? I believe my mom sewed my name and phone number in the elastic on them? :fakelaugh: :lol2:

[Reedus]

Just after the slab bowl in Russell Gulch I picked up a pair of adult underwear that apparently the guy had shit himself and left in the middle of the trail.

Can I get those back, by the way? I believe my mom sewed my name and phone number in the elastic on them? :fakelaugh: :lol2:


Russell Gulch??? No that scary of a canyon. :ne_nau:

[sarahlizzy]

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6z-PiMvacA

[Reedus]

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6z-PiMvacA

There is a better way:
http://bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17785

[Bo_Beck]

Just after the slab bowl in Russell Gulch I picked up a pair of adult underwear that apparently the guy had shit himself and left in the middle of the trail.

Can I get those back, by the way? I believe my mom sewed my name and phone number in the elastic on them? :fakelaugh: :lol2:

:roflol: No way man! A few rinses in the first pool and a perfect fit now!

[Bo_Beck]

Just after the slab bowl in Russell Gulch I picked up a pair of adult underwear that apparently the guy had shit himself and left in the middle of the trail.

Can I get those back, by the way? I believe my mom sewed my name and phone number in the elastic on them? :fakelaugh: :lol2:


Russell Gulch??? No that scary of a canyon. :ne_nau:

I think it was the STEEP bowl from the top of the Hoodoo that made him Poopoo! :haha:

[Bo_Beck]

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

[sarahlizzy]

I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

Or perhaps allocate the walk-ins for The Subway and Mystery with a daily lottery, drawn at 5pm the day before? That would eliminate the whole "up at Stupid O'Clock" thing in one fell swoop.

[Bo_Beck]

I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

Or perhaps allocate the walk-ins for The Subway and Mystery with a daily lottery, drawn at 5pm the day before? That would eliminate the whole "up at Stupid O'Clock" thing in one fell swoop.

I believe that Vermillion Cliffs/Paria Canyon Wilderness "The Wave" uses a system similar to this. However they have a line formed at the door before the doors open the day before intended trip. This too has it's problems. Many people can't get there the day before and if they can, they then wait to see if they "win". If they do or don't they then have to travel back and forth often from long distances. At least if all the legwork is done via internet, you might find out if you've won from at home before travelling long distances.

[sarahlizzy]

I believe that Vermillion Cliffs/Paria Canyon Wilderness "The Wave" uses a system similar to this. However they have a line formed at the door before the doors open the day before intended trip. This too has it's problems. Many people can't get there the day before and if they can, they then wait to see if they "win". If they do or don't they then have to travel back and forth often from long distances. At least if all the legwork is done via internet, you might find out if you've won from at home before travelling long distances.

Bit harsh on wilderness campers or people staying in hotels with no access to printers or even the Internet if you have to go online/print it yourself the day before though.

[Bo_Beck]

I believe that Vermillion Cliffs/Paria Canyon Wilderness "The Wave" uses a system similar to this. However they have a line formed at the door before the doors open the day before intended trip. This too has it's problems. Many people can't get there the day before and if they can, they then wait to see if they "win". If they do or don't they then have to travel back and forth often from long distances. At least if all the legwork is done via internet, you might find out if you've won from at home before travelling long distances.

Bit harsh on wilderness campers or people staying in hotels with no access to printers or even the Internet if you have to go online/print it yourself the day before though.

Ok..so maybe have a line formed at 4 or 5am the day before or day of intended hike. Pass out a different colored "raffle ticket" to all waiting contingent on which hike is being sought. Immediately draw the winners from the hat and winners proceed to get permits. If there isn't a full quota filled on some of the hikes, immediately announce and have those that desire to re-enter into another immediate drawing?

[sarahlizzy]

Ok..so maybe have a line formed at 4 or 5am the day before or day of intended hike. Pass out a different colored "raffle ticket" to all waiting contingent on which hike is being sought. Immediately draw the winners from the hat and winners proceed to get permits. If there isn't a full quota filled on some of the hikes, immediately announce and have those that desire to re-enter into another immediate drawing?

That sounds pretty reasonable.

[Bo_Beck]

Ok..so maybe have a line formed at 4 or 5am the day before or day of intended hike. Pass out a different colored "raffle ticket" to all waiting contingent on which hike is being sought. Immediately draw the winners from the hat and winners proceed to get permits. If there isn't a full quota filled on some of the hikes, immediately announce and have those that desire to re-enter into another immediate drawing?

That sounds pretty reasonable.

And if AM doesn't work...maybe do it in the PM day before? I know this still doesn't work for many people whether AM, PM, day before or day of, but I still hold to my thoughts that some areas need daily restrictions. Some still believe that there should be no restrictions at all, but I just don't see this happenning?

[Jaxx]

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

you mean you didn't fly across "the pond" just to wait in line instead of sleeping or getting started on your trip?

[ratagonia]

Some still believe that there should be no restrictions at all, but I just don't see this happenning?

Other than Wade, who?

Don't pull that old trick, Bo, of mis-stating 'the other sides' case, then pointing out how absurd it is.

Tom

[moab mark]

I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

Or perhaps allocate the walk-ins for The Subway and Mystery with a daily lottery, drawn at 5pm the day before? That would eliminate the whole "up at Stupid O'Clock" thing in one fell swoop.

There not going to like that idea. Then they would have that big ugly line when the VC is busy. Bad P.R.
Mark

[ratagonia]

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

Kiosks.

Having Kiosks at the VC where people could fill out their information without requiring a ranger doing it for them; then pay their money (we know how to do this without a person now, right?); then only a final sign off by the ranger. This would speed up the line.

You could also have kiosks in other locations such as at Lava Point, the East Entrance, The Desert Rat in St George, Zion Ponderosa, Cedar City, Salt Lake City, The Internets... WITH modern technology, many things are possible.

But the Park Service is hampered by an inability to use modern technology.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

I believe that Vermillion Cliffs/Paria Canyon Wilderness "The Wave" uses a system similar to this. However they have a line formed at the door before the doors open the day before intended trip. This too has it's problems. Many people can't get there the day before and if they can, they then wait to see if they "win". If they do or don't they then have to travel back and forth often from long distances. At least if all the legwork is done via internet, you might find out if you've won from at home before travelling long distances.

Bit harsh on wilderness campers or people staying in hotels with no access to printers or even the Internet if you have to go online/print it yourself the day before though.

Ok..so maybe have a line formed at 4 or 5am the day before or day of intended hike. Pass out a different colored "raffle ticket" to all waiting contingent on which hike is being sought. Immediately draw the winners from the hat and winners proceed to get permits. If there isn't a full quota filled on some of the hikes, immediately announce and have those that desire to re-enter into another immediate drawing?

I must be slow, seems like a few computer terminals at the desk to electronically pull your permit solves the majority of the problems.
A couple of terminals for trying to obtain a permit a couple for picking up lottery permits. :ne_nau: They already have this program available on line through express permit. Just put it in the building. :frustrated:

I was typing while Tom was posting. Tom, they have the technology I use it all the time. Can someone take this whole thread print it out and put it together and deliver to the Head Park Supervisor?
Mark

[Bo_Beck]

Some still believe that there should be no restrictions at all, but I just don't see this happenning?

Other than Wade, who?

Don't pull that old trick, Bo, of mis-stating 'the other sides' case, then pointing out how absurd it is.

Tom

Not sure what "trick" you refer to Tom? I'm not very good at navigating, copying, pasting from this thread, but I do remember some comments and posts that suggest "poaching and wiping my ^$$ with any ticket, links from previous threads on the "how-tos of poaching" and not too sure if I read any others? Maybe I read these wrong and the comments just refer to "total dissatisfaction" of the current system and are quite serious or maybe they just are joking?

[moab mark]

Question, why on Subway and Mystery do they even have a walk up program. Why not just lottery them all off? I would imagine most of the people in the line are waiting for one of those permits?

[Bo_Beck]

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

Kiosks.

Having Kiosks at the VC where people could fill out their information without requiring a ranger doing it for them; then pay their money (we know how to do this without a person now, right?); then only a final sign off by the ranger. This would speed up the line.

You could also have kiosks in other locations such as at Lava Point, the East Entrance, The Desert Rat in St George, Zion Ponderosa, Cedar City, Salt Lake City, The Internets... WITH modern technology, many things are possible.

But the Park Service is hampered by an inability to use modern technology.

Tom :moses:

:2thumbs: Seems resonable to me? Has this been presented to the Park?

[ratagonia]

Some still believe that there should be no restrictions at all, but I just don't see this happenning?

Other than Wade, who?

Don't pull that old trick, Bo, of mis-stating 'the other sides' case, then pointing out how absurd it is.

Tom

Not sure what "trick" you refer to Tom? I'm not very good at navigating, copying, pasting from this thread, but I do remember some comments and posts that suggest "poaching and wiping my ^$$ with any ticket, links from previous threads on the "how-tos of poaching" and not too sure if I read any others? Maybe I read these wrong and the comments just refer to "total dissatisfaction" of the current system and are quite serious or maybe they just are joking?

Posturing? On Bogley?

"I am shocked, shocked I say, to see posturing taking place on this website"

But seriously - posturing about poaching is not the same as saying that there should be no use limits on anything. It is a response to frustrations with the current system.

The 'trick' is one currently popular in politics and I think (being a liberal) used aggressively by conservatives. It is the 'strawman' fallacy, detailed well here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

T :moses:

[ratagonia]

Question, why on Subway and Mystery do they even have a walk up program. Why not just lottery them all off? I would imagine most of the people in the line are waiting for one of those permits?

In order to be fair to people coming form overseas, perhaps.

It seems like 'some' should be held for walkups, in order to increase the fairness of the system. Hard to construct a tight argument for it, but it seems like a good idea to me.

Tom

[Bo_Beck]

Some still believe that there should be no restrictions at all, but I just don't see this happenning?

Other than Wade, who?

Don't pull that old trick, Bo, of mis-stating 'the other sides' case, then pointing out how absurd it is.

Tom

Not sure what "trick" you refer to Tom? I'm not very good at navigating, copying, pasting from this thread, but I do remember some comments and posts that suggest "poaching and wiping my ^$$ with any ticket, links from previous threads on the "how-tos of poaching" and not too sure if I read any others? Maybe I read these wrong and the comments just refer to "total dissatisfaction" of the current system and are quite serious or maybe they just are joking?

Posturing? On Bogley?

"I am shocked, shocked I say, to see posturing taking place on this website"

But seriously - posturing about poaching is not the same as saying that there should be no use limits on anything. It is a response to frustrations with the current system.

The 'trick' is one currently popular in politics and I think (being a liberal) used aggressively by conservatives. It is the 'strawman' fallacy, detailed well here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

T :moses:

You're right Tom. A kneejerk reaction on my part. Once again sincerely apologize for my assumptions. Yes....frustrations I can see.

[ratagonia]

Kiosks.

Having Kiosks at the VC where people could fill out their information without requiring a ranger doing it for them; then pay their money (we know how to do this without a person now, right?); then only a final sign off by the ranger. This would speed up the line.

You could also have kiosks in other locations such as at Lava Point, the East Entrance, The Desert Rat in St George, Zion Ponderosa, Cedar City, Salt Lake City, The Internets... WITH modern technology, many things are possible.

But the Park Service is hampered by an inability to use modern technology.

Tom :moses:

:2thumbs: Seems resonable to me? Has this been presented to the Park?

MY presenting suggestions to the Park seems to fall on deaf ears. Perhaps a similar suggestion from Bo Beck would meet with greater listening.

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

you mean you didn't fly across "the pond" just to wait in line instead of sleeping or getting started on your trip?

Waiting in line in such amazing scenery (which can't be seen because it's pitch dark) has to be my idea of the ultimate vacation :haha:

At least today is "take it easy after The Subway day", so we can snooze for a bit, and maybe then soak in the hot tub, potter round the Emerald Pools, and then have a nice dinner at Zion Lodge or something.

Got to book a taxi for Mystery tomorrow too (I believe there's still a permit available - one of our group doesn't feel up to it so we took 5 of the 6) - no way am I hauling all that equipment up from Weeping Rock.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

this whole discussion was started because a party was asked to show their permit while they were on the side of the road getting ready. Shouldn't the ranger already know that there's a party of 6 with a blue chevy pickup truck with a CA license plate xxx xxx that was issued a permit for that canyon. They sure as hell knew that I had an unpaid ticket that was over 5 years old when we hiked out of the Subway one day. The only reason the ranger should actually have to come over and question somebody is if the vehicle that was being used was not in the system for that day.

[Deeps]

this whole discussion was started because a party was asked to show their permit while they were on the side of the road getting ready. Shouldn't the ranger already know that there's a party of 6 with a blue chevy pickup truck with a CA license plate xxx xxx that was issued a permit for that canyon. They sure as hell knew that I had an unpaid ticket that was over 5 years old when we hiked out of the Subway one day. The only reason the ranger should actually have to come over and question somebody is if the vehicle that was being used was not in the system for that day.

I'm turning into the ranger apologist around here. Believe me, this is not the case. I'm grateful the two rangers stopped and asked me what was going on while I was waiting at the wrong location for the Friday Spry group. They didn't impinge negatively on my wilderness experience, instead they helped me find my group and have a wilderness experience.

Now, did they stop to harass me about a permit since I was wearing a pack with a harness and helmet strapped in plain sight to the outside of it, or did they stop to talk and maybe help me? It's all in your point of view. I'm new, and I haven't had a negative experience with the rangers yet.

[moab mark]

Question, why on Subway and Mystery do they even have a walk up program. Why not just lottery them all off? I would imagine most of the people in the line are waiting for one of those permits?

In order to be fair to people coming form overseas, perhaps.

It seems like 'some' should be held for walkups, in order to increase the fairness of the system. Hard to construct a tight argument for it, but it seems like a good idea to me.

Tom
I could be wrong but I imagine most of the walk up crowd is for the subway permits? If this is the case maybe a simple solution would be to use one of the windows for subway and the other for all other permits?
Mark

Oh let me guess there is only one employee there in the morning?

[Iceaxe]

Oh let me guess there is only one employee there in the morning?

Good guess.... :2thumbs:

And the first person in line usually wants to look at pictures and discuss options of every route in the park. Followed by a complete discussion on every rule.... with the one ranger....

Most groups are pretty fast. But I have been behind groups that take 30 minutes or more before....

:bootyshake:

[Odie_Canyon]

Living in Hurricane I have stood in line many times to pick up permits for my group, who mostly come from Vegas.



I could be wrong but I imagine most of the walk up crowd is for the subway permits? If this is the case maybe a simple solution would be to use one of the windows for subway and the other for all other permits?
Mark

I am surprised how many "tourists" show up early in the morning to pickup permits for the Narrows and the West Rim. The first 4 groups in line are almost always for Subway and Mystery; which means someone is going back to bed...



Oh let me guess there is only one employee there in the morning?

Evey time I have gone early for permits there are two rangers. And knowing what I want, I am usually done and gone before the first group convinces the ranger of what they want.

[bruce from bryce]

Kiosks - what a great idea!

I mentioned this during the comment period for the Management Plan that now governs usage of canyons within the park. Apparently fell on deaf ears. I even provided an example of how at Mr Ranier they were using them to print out camping permits where rangers were not always present. Maybe our application would be a little bit more extensive but then again...

However, even with them in place there is no guarantee of success, for example.

At Bryce Canyon we had terminals at the lodge, visitor center, camp store and even out at Ruby's Inn that provided info the tourists could access to assist in planning their trips. So what failed? Software, electricity, hardware? None of these. Some damn tourists kept stealing the ball out of the mouses.

Keep addressing the problem and keep presenting alternates ways of doing business and maybe, just maybe the system will be changed or improved.

bruce from bryce
"retired but not inactive"

[sarahlizzy]

I am surprised how many "tourists" show up early in the morning to pickup permits for the Narrows and the West Rim. The first 4 groups in line are almost always for Subway and Mystery; which means someone is going back to bed...



Oh let me guess there is only one employee there in the morning?

Evey time I have gone early for permits there are two rangers. And knowing what I want, I am usually done and gone before the first group convinces the ranger of what they want.

There were two rangers this morning. Being the second in line, behind a Subway guy, I managed to get seen straight away. I managed to keep the conversation somewhat businesslike:

"Five for Mystery tomorrow please"
"Have you been here before?"
"Yes, but I've not done Mystery before"
...he finds me on the system and verifies my details.
"Have you checked the weather?"
"Yes, and I'll check it again before we leave"
"Do you have a route description?"
"Yes, I have beta and two 120 foot ropes and a 200 foot rope"
That answer seemed to instantly satisfy him, because his facial expression lit up and at that point he just printed out the permit sheet, I signed, and was on my way. The whole thing took about 2 minutes, which presumably pleased the next person in line.

From the conversations I overheard while waiting though, there were a lot of people there who didn't seem to know much about the canyon they wanted a permit for. Almost everyone was there for The Subway.

[sasteve49]

I'm a newbie to this forum, but we did Imlay three days ago. I walked in to the Permit office the day before and got the permit after a 15 minute wait. One thing they could do at the desk, is change the sign above which says "Backcountry Information" to Backcountry Permits only". Because every time I have been for a permit, there have been people in line in front of me simply seeking info about hikes that they could have gotten at the other info desk.By the way, Imlay was awesome, half full, with 3 hooks and one pack toss. 8-1/2 hours from Grotto into the Narrows with 4 people, starting on the right Sneak route.