Rappel Device Location

[cilantro13]

Technical question:

What are the pros and cons of connecting your rappel device to a carabiner attached directly to your harness
<versus>
attaching the rappel device to a carabiner that is connected to a sling girth hitched to your harness. In other words, in the latter case, the rappel device is extended out from the harness with the sling.

I have seen videos of a California outfit teaching using the extended method. I had written the technique off until I read the book Self Rescue (see the recommendation in this thread: http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17682). In the book, it shows many examples using a sling to extend the rappel device out method. For example, the section on passing knots shows diagrams where a rappel is started in a "no sling" configuration. The rappel is completed to a knot connecting two ropes. Upon reconnection to the ropes below the knot, the belay device extended with a sling.

Can anybody articulate the pros and cons of using an rappel device extended by a sling? If not considered normal operating procedure, when would it be appropriate to extend the rappel device via sling?

[canyonguru]

Well i know the biggest problem with hanging it out there with a sling will cause your device to get scraped across any tight overhang or log jam. IMO i want my device as close to my body as posible. that way if i run a prusik I place it above my device this way nothing can get pulled up into my device with out me knowing. It is just the way that i learned and it works for me very well. I use a parana most of the time becuase of the quick friction options.

[denaliguide]

the only time i have my rappel device more than one locking biner away from my harness is in the winter when i have too many layers of clothing to see exactly what i am doing. then i just add one more locking biner to it and the distance seems right to me.

[ratagonia]

Technical question:

What are the pros and cons of connecting your rappel device to a carabiner attached directly to your harness
<versus>
attaching the rappel device to a carabiner that is connected to a sling girth hitched to your harness. In other words, in the latter case, the rappel device is extended out from the harness with the sling.

I have seen videos of a California outfit teaching using the extended method. I had written the technique off until I read the book Self Rescue (see the recommendation in this thread: http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17682). In the book, it shows many examples using a sling to extend the rappel device out method. For example, the section on passing knots shows diagrams where a rappel is started in a "no sling" configuration. The rappel is completed to a knot connecting two ropes. Upon reconnection to the ropes below the knot, the belay device extended with a sling.

Can anybody articulate the pros and cons of using an rappel device extended by a sling? If not considered normal operating procedure, when would it be appropriate to extend the rappel device via sling?

This is called "Extending the Rappel", is taught as a standard technique by ATS, and is not generally used by other people except in special circumstances.

Disadvantages:
1. Requires more equipment. Is sloppy, loose, disheveled, inelegant.
2. Not so good for awkward rappel starts that are common in canyons, especially CP canyons outside Zion. The extended rap device tends to get stuck above you.
3. The rig hanging down after the rappel is bad for walking and climbing, and the rappel device will burn your thighs. Requires management of the device after each rappel and before setting up (=slow slow slow).
4. If rigged quite high, the device can be out of easy reach, and then a curlyque or other problem can occur which becomes more difficult to deal with.
5. The rappel extension is usually made using webbing. The rope must NOT rub against the webbing as you rappel - it could burn through.
6. The higher location may be more effective at picking up loose items such as hair, beards, bushy eyebrows, t-shirts, substantial buxoms, etc.

Advantages:
1. Having the device higher allows using both hands on the rope in an equal manner.
2. In the few cases where using an Autobloc is appropriate, it gives more space at the bottom for the Autobloc to operate.
3. The higher location may be more effective at avoiding picking up loose items such as hair, beards, bushy eyebrows, t-shirts, substantial buxoms, etc.
4. The higher location works well for small kids, whose hands are not very strong in the 'down' position. With kids, I like getting the device up high enough that they will not get their little tiny fingers pinched in the device.
5. On long rappels, having the 'hot biner' at face level allows grasping the rig with the free hand to help hold the upper body in. On long free rappels, I usually go ahead and make a chest harness and clip it into the rigging which is in the right place with the rappel device extended.

When I use an extended device:
1. With small kids (under about 10 yrs old).
2. For myself on long rappels (extended with a folded, over the shoulder sling. Two crossed slings make a chest harness and clip in right there).
3. Certain rescue scenarios (tandem rappel).

That said, my normal rappel set up is a Pirana on an Attache clipped to a 10mm Aluminum Rapide, threaded on my belay loop. This provides a small amount of extension (over what most people use), which I find quite agreeable.

There is a fair amount of 'personal preference' involved, but outside Zion and the San Gabriels, one would find the extension a pain in the patootie on the numerous awkward rappel starts.

Tom :moses:

[cilantro13]

Thanks to everybody, and to Tom especially for the detailed explanation.

[canyonguru]

:roflol: :roflol: Substantial Buxoms :roflol: :roflol:


Tom you kill me :roflol:

[Iceaxe]

I have to extend my rappel device about 3-feet so that my daddy parts don't get caught.......

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[karoberts]

This is the product that ATS uses to extend the rappel device
http://www.sterlingrope.com/product/155018/Chain/_/Chain_Reactors

You girth hitch the large loop of the longer green part through both harness loops. Then your biner with atc/pirana goes through the small loop at the end of the larger green part. Usually a williams or other large biner goes on the other green part at the end which can be used to clip to an exposed anchor (for safety) or to a tagline in swiftwater scenarios.

To walk around with it, you clip the device biner into a harness gear loop, and then the biner on the end to a gear loop on your other side. To rappel, you unclip your device biner, hook into the rope, tie your autobloc, and go.

A few reasons I like this method (some similar to Tom's points)
1. The angle of the rope needed to provide friction is less, thus I can actually use my brake hand to steady myself on slippery rappels (san gabriels muck) without losing friction.
2. The autobloc (which I use most of the time in non-swiftwater) goes neatly below the rappel device and can be tended by my left hand with my right further down the brake line.
3. Having a chain always there is handy for hooking into anchors where a slip would be a problem.
4. For certain rescue/self rescue scenarios having that chain there can simplify things.

Problems I've found with it
1. I've scraped my pirana over a few edges. It's only a problem when you go over an edge that is undercut.
2. On free-hanging rappels, the change in position of the device can tend to try and flip you over (especially if wearing a heavy pack)
3. After you finish your rappel, the device is hanging lower and can hit you in the thighs while walking.
4. I sometimes worry about that green webbing part breaking on me. It's basically a doubled/reinforced sling, so I don't worry too much, but it's another item that can fail.

So overall, it's just another tool in the bag.

[ratagonia]

This is the product that ATS uses to extend the rappel device
http://www.sterlingrope.com/product/155018/Chain/_/Chain_Reactors

You girth hitch the large loop of the longer green part through both harness loops. Then your biner with atc/pirana goes through the small loop at the end of the larger green part. Usually a williams or other large biner goes on the other green part at the end which can be used to clip to an exposed anchor (for safety) or to a tagline in swiftwater scenarios.

To walk around with it, you clip the device biner into a harness gear loop, and then the biner on the end to a gear loop on your other side. To rappel, you unclip your device biner, hook into the rope, tie your autobloc, and go.

A few reasons I like this method (some similar to Tom's points)
1. The angle of the rope needed to provide friction is less, thus I can actually use my brake hand to steady myself on slippery rappels (san gabriels muck) without losing friction.
2. The autobloc (which I use most of the time in non-swiftwater) goes neatly below the rappel device and can be tended by my left hand with my right further down the brake line.
3. Having a chain always there is handy for hooking into anchors where a slip would be a problem.
4. For certain rescue/self rescue scenarios having that chain there can simplify things.

Problems I've found with it
1. I've scraped my pirana over a few edges. It's only a problem when you go over an edge that is undercut.
2. On free-hanging rappels, the change in position of the device can tend to try and flip you over (especially if wearing a heavy pack)
3. After you finish your rappel, the device is hanging lower and can hit you in the thighs while walking.
4. I sometimes worry about that green webbing part breaking on me. It's basically a doubled/reinforced sling, so I don't worry too much, but it's another item that can fail.

So overall, it's just another tool in the bag.

I realize that with training, one can be convinced this is a simple and elegant solution :roll: but to me it seems awkward and sloppy.

1. Daisy chain? Daisy chains (or Chain Reactors) are great for climbing, where you are Actually Hanging from anchors and need to micro adjust the length. If you are doing this canyoneering, you are doing different canyons the me! Adjustability in your clip-in sling is not useful and gets in the way when canyoneering. Your clip-in sling should be a reasonable length and tight to the body (when stowed) so it does not get in the way, and so it can be quickly used and stowed. Longish chains require multiple clips to deploy and stow - which is slow slow slow - and having extra things hanging on you is somewhat dangerous. (summary: no benefit, many downsides).

2. Having your clip-in sling and your rappel device clip-in linked is not of benefit, and gets in the way, in the real world. Yes, if the anchors are "text-book", then the whole thing works, but when the safety anchor is over here and the rappel anchor over there (or maybe, over the edge), then it is a distinct liability. Another of your comments brings out another problem - awkward rappel start, heavy pack - why are you wearing the pack? With a separated clip-in sling, the pack can be easily clipped and lowered, without adding an odd force to the rappel device clip in, which is awkward enough already.

I have seen people use this system, and it seems awkward and forced (and slow, and adds some dangers). Bzzzzzzt!

But, your mileage may vary. I place an extra emphasis on simplicity, elegance and speed (in addition to the background level 0 of safety). Perhaps you like things that are complex, inelegant and slow. :haha:

Tom :moses:

[karoberts]

Technical question:

What are the pros and cons of connecting your rappel device to a carabiner attached directly to your harness
<versus>
attaching the rappel device to a carabiner that is connected to a sling girth hitched to your harness. In other words, in the latter case, the rappel device is extended out from the harness with the sling.

Can anybody articulate the pros and cons of using an rappel device extended by a sling? If not considered normal operating procedure, when would it be appropriate to extend the rappel device via sling?

As per the original poster, I was simply answering his questions as to some of the pros and cons from someone who has used that method. I wasn't advocating any particular method. What works well for me may not work for others and vice-versa.

[rcwild]

There have also been several incidents here and overseas involving people using daisy chains as their safety lanyards. Victim goes under water, daisy chain snags on stick or rock and holds them under. Resulted in drownings or near-drownings. One such incident occurred during an ACA rendezvous in Arizona a few years ago. She managed to free herself once she realized what the problem was, but her partners said she was under for well over a minute and a half.

Daisy chain, Metolius PAS, Sterling Chain Reactor -- all create the same risk. All of the benefits espoused by ATS regarding this method can be attained by using a Petzl Spelegyca or a combination of other items, i.e. Imlay Clipster as long leg (lanyard) and Edelrid Fuse as short leg (rappel device extension). And the benefits are attained without the serious drawbacks.

[rcwild]

This is the product that ATS uses to extend the rappel device
http://www.sterlingrope.com/product/155018/Chain/_/Chain_Reactors

From Sterling's description:


The Chain Reactor absorbs enough energy to withstand three factor 2 drops.

Interesting thing about this ... The excessive length of the Chain Reactor (or Metolius PAS or daisy chain) contributes significantly to people setting themselves up for said factor 2 falls. Give someone a long leash and they are more likely to climb above the anchor.

[Felicia]

:roflol: :roflol: Substantial Buxoms :roflol: :roflol:




...not funny - true.

[max32]

WHat about using a short 8" dogbone with 2 locking biners on each side to extend an ATC device for rappelling?

[ilipichicuma]

I've been extending my belay device out on a sling for a few months now, and I'm a little split as to whether I like it or not. I think it does make rappelling a little more comfortable, but Tom was right about it being clumsy, and it does make awkward starts harder. A lot of the time I just pull my device in for that. I think I'm going to stop once I get my hands on a rapide to make my ATS stay straight.

[ratagonia]

I've been extending my belay device out on a sling for a few months now, and I'm a little split as to whether I like it or not. I think it does make rappelling a little more comfortable, but Tom was right about it being clumsy, and it does make awkward starts harder. A lot of the time I just pull my device in for that. I think I'm going to stop once I get my hands on a rapide to make my ATS stay straight.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/product.php?productid=16288&cat=260&page=1

T

[ilipichicuma]

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/product.php?productid=16288&cat=260&page=1

T

Thanks, but I already bought one at Lowe's a couple months ago. I like it a lot, actually. :cool2:

[canyoncaver]

Technical question:

What are the pros and cons of .............. attaching the rappel device to a carabiner that is connected to a sling girth hitched to your harness?

Pro: Extending the rappel device can be nice if you ever have to rappel down an extremely tight crack. If you can get the device up near head level, and keep your hair out of it, it makes squeezing down through a crack while on rope so much nicer. This is the only time I use this method.

Con: All the stuff that Tom said.

[CLE]

Pro: Extending the rappel device can be nice if you ever have to rappel down an extremely tight crack. If you can get the device up near head level, and keep your hair out of it, it makes squeezing down through a crack while on rope so much nicer. This is the only time I use this method.

Con: All the stuff that Tom said.

I agree. I have used this method to rappel in tight, jagged caves. It gets the rappel device up where I can see what's going on, reduces the abuse the device takes from the wall, and gives me a little more clearance where I need it.

[burley]

Thanks, but I already bought one at Lowe's a couple months ago. I like it a lot, actually. :cool2:

Not to be hating, but can anyone clarify? I was under the impression that hardware from Lowe's wasn't safe, and that rapides should be CE or UIAA rated?

[ilipichicuma]

Not to be hating, but can anyone clarify? I was under the impression that hardware from Lowe's wasn't safe, and that rapides should be CE or UIAA rated?

I hadn't heard that, and the guy at the Outdoor store recommended I go to Lowe's when they didn't have what I was after. It's rated for a ridiculously large amount of weight and is made of stainless steel, I think, so I don't see how it wouldn't be safe. And it hasn't given out on me yet!

[canyoncaver]

The difference is that Maillon Rapide links are manufactured as life support gear and as such are individually tested and the minimum breaking strength (MBS) is determined by a rigorous pull-testing regime. The ones from Lowes likely come from China and I can order metal links from China and get whatever I want stamped on the side. That is the difference. I would be interested to know which outdoor store sent you to Lowes!

Many of us make the personal choice to use the hardware store links for rappel rings on anchors. I personally would spend the extra $6 and get a real one for anything that was going to be a permanent part of my vertical gear.

It is up to you to decide what you consider "safe."

[ilipichicuma]

The difference is that Maillon Rapide links are manufactured as life support gear and as such are individually tested and the minimum breaking strength (MBS) is determined by a rigorous pull-testing regime. The ones from Lowes likely come from China and I can order metal links from China and get whatever I want stamped on the side. That is the difference. I would be interested to know which outdoor store sent you to Lowes!

Many of us make the personal choice to use the hardware store links for rappel rings on anchors. I personally would spend the extra $6 and get a real one for anything that was going to be a permanent part of my vertical gear.

It is up to you to decide what you consider "safe."

Well, that's valid. However, I still figure that these things are made to hold a whole lot more weight than my paltry 250 pounds, plus backpack, even if they are made in China, so I'm not too worried. Call me callous or something, but that's the way I see it.

[Cirrus2000]

A perennial disagreement. I'm on the "real deal" side. Especially since the standard 8mm Maillon Rapides for anchor building are only $2.80 each at the Co-op. I throw 'em around like candy. :haha:

The cheapies are made to hold a lot of weight, but they're not tested and can have flaws. I'm not willing to gamble, with my life, that this one might be the one with some kind of weakness. And I'm definitely not going to gamble with putting family or friends on a rappel with hardware that I don't fully - and I mean FULLY - trust.

[oldno7]

Shane/Dan, this should probably split into it's own thread.


kn=224.809

Mallion 8mm Zinc coated rapides are rated for 35kn along the large axis
10kn along the small

Mallion 8mm Stainless
rapides are rated for 45kn along the large axis
10kn along the small

Mallion breaking strength is based of 5X SWL(safe working limit)


Your every day 5/16" home depot,walmart,lowes/hardware store variety need to have a SWL 1760 stamp on the side.
If it has this stamp, the "estimated" breaking strength is 3X =5280lbs.

I have not personally seen the data, but have been told that there was testing done on the rapides with the 1760SWL stamp.
Tests showed actual breaking strength in the 6000lb range, with a large deviation of breaks, but all quite high.(Toms gonna make me find this, but I hope he has the data, or Hank or Sonny)
Mallion on the other hand, tests there lots much more frequently and the deviations are quite small.

I personally have no problem using the 1760swl 5/16 quick links for setting up anchors.
For some reason, I use a mallion on my tether attachment on my harness.

[hank moon]

I have not personally seen the data, but have been told that there was testing done on the rapides with the 1760SWL stamp.
Tests showed actual breaking strength in the 6000lb range, with a large deviation of breaks, but all quite high.(Toms gonna make me find this, but I hope he has the data, or Hank or Sonny)


Excerpt from a (longish) 2008 thread on the canyons group:

Strength of Rapid Links/rap rings
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/43388

Re: Strength of Rapid Links/rap rings

--- In canyons@yahoogroups.com, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote:
>
> Still remember when Tom busted a couple of the teeny 1/4" ones
> (eastern rim hardware store models). Pretty consistant results.
> What, Tom, north of 6000 lbs each, and they busted within 100 pounds
> of each other?
>
> -Brian in SLC
>

First batch, yeah, pretty good.

Second Batch! totally different story.

Bought the 'same item' at the same reputable place (Bolt and Nut
Supply) and they were clearly from a different vendor. Threads barely
meshed. Sonny broke some from the new purchase and some from the old
purchase. The new ones had a fairly tight SD, but at around 3000 lbs
(as I remember), while the old ones were still up around 6k. Needless
to say, the SD on the combined batch was terrible.

Which is why I cringe when people say the rapides they have are good.
yes, maybe they are, but 'hardware store rapid links' is a very, very
loose definition, and some of that will be quite good, and some of it
may be quite bad. Even worse if you buy it on "Ebay". Ebay is a
vast, worldwide flea market, and buying this kind of a thing is a
total crap shoot.

When I buy the stuff from Maillons Rapide, I can be very, very sure of
what I am getting, even if they are not the CE stamped ones.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Excerpt from a (longish) 2008 thread on the canyons group:

Strength of Rapid Links/rap rings
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/43388

Re: Strength of Rapid Links/rap rings

--- In canyons@yahoogroups.com, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote:
>
> Still remember when Tom busted a couple of the teeny 1/4" ones
> (eastern rim hardware store models). Pretty consistant results.
> What, Tom, north of 6000 lbs each, and they busted within 100 pounds
> of each other?
>
> -Brian in SLC
>

First batch, yeah, pretty good.

Second Batch! totally different story.

Bought the 'same item' at the same reputable place (Bolt and Nut
Supply) and they were clearly from a different vendor. Threads barely
meshed. Sonny broke some from the new purchase and some from the old
purchase. The new ones had a fairly tight SD, but at around 3000 lbs
(as I remember), while the old ones were still up around 6k. Needless
to say, the SD on the combined batch was terrible.

Which is why I cringe when people say the rapides they have are good.
yes, maybe they are, but 'hardware store rapid links' is a very, very
loose definition, and some of that will be quite good, and some of it
may be quite bad. Even worse if you buy it on "Ebay". Ebay is a
vast, worldwide flea market, and buying this kind of a thing is a
total crap shoot.

When I buy the stuff from Maillons Rapide, I can be very, very sure of
what I am getting, even if they are not the CE stamped ones.

Tom

Thanks Hank. Was wondering where to dig that out.

The other key point is, the good ones are not all that expensive, just harder to find. Or order here:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=252

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

A perennial disagreement. I'm on the "real deal" side. Especially since the standard 8mm Maillon Rapides for anchor building are only $2.80 each at the Co-op. I throw 'em around like candy. :haha:

The cheapies are made to hold a lot of weight, but they're not tested and can have flaws. I'm not willing to gamble, with my life, that this one might be the one with some kind of weakness. And I'm definitely not going to gamble with putting family or friends on a rappel with hardware that I don't fully - and I mean FULLY - trust.

And of course --- every time you leave one in a canyon, you are participating in putting SOMEONE'S family at risk.

tom

[canyoncaver]

And of course --- every time you leave one in a canyon, you are participating in putting SOMEONE'S family at risk.

Touche', but only SOMEONE who has the same responsibility for their own personal safety as I did. If I'm expected to evaluate anchors and make changes accordingly, then so are they. :nono:

[Cirrus2000]

Touche', but only SOMEONE who has the same responsibility for their own personal safety as I did. If I'm expected to evaluate anchors and make changes accordingly, then so are they. :nono:

Absolutely true. :nod:

[ratagonia]

Touche', but only SOMEONE who has the same responsibility for their own personal safety as I did. If I'm expected to evaluate anchors and make changes accordingly, then so are they. :nono:

In theory, there is little difference between theory and practice. In practice, there's a large difference.

Jes' Sayin'

:moses:

[hank moon]

Touche', but only SOMEONE who has the same responsibility for their own personal safety as I did. If I'm expected to evaluate anchors and make changes accordingly, then so are they. :nono:

Can you explain more about what you mean, here? Others seem to be getting it, but I am not. Are you asserting that your actions/choices are dependent on others' ?

[MrAdam]

Excerpt from a (longish) 2008 thread on the canyons group:

Strength of Rapid Links/rap rings
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/43388

Re: Strength of Rapid Links/rap rings

--- In canyons@yahoogroups.com, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote:
>
> Still remember when Tom busted a couple of the teeny 1/4" ones
> (eastern rim hardware store models). Pretty consistant results.
> What, Tom, north of 6000 lbs each, and they busted within 100 pounds
> of each other?
>
> -Brian in SLC
>

First batch, yeah, pretty good.

Second Batch! totally different story.

Bought the 'same item' at the same reputable place (Bolt and Nut
Supply) and they were clearly from a different vendor. Threads barely
meshed. Sonny broke some from the new purchase and some from the old
purchase. The new ones had a fairly tight SD, but at around 3000 lbs
(as I remember), while the old ones were still up around 6k. Needless
to say, the SD on the combined batch was terrible.

Which is why I cringe when people say the rapides they have are good.
yes, maybe they are, but 'hardware store rapid links' is a very, very
loose definition, and some of that will be quite good, and some of it
may be quite bad. Even worse if you buy it on "Ebay". Ebay is a
vast, worldwide flea market, and buying this kind of a thing is a
total crap shoot.

When I buy the stuff from Maillons Rapide, I can be very, very sure of
what I am getting, even if they are not the CE stamped ones.

Tom

Has there ever been any testing done on the breaking strength of chain links? Are they really safe to use? Lately these are what we have been bringing with us for anchor building and with the test results shown here on the hardware store rapides, it makes me wonder if they are really safe. I vaguely remember reading something about using chain links on Tom's site a while back...

[ratagonia]

Has there ever been any testing done on the breaking strength of chain links? Are they really safe to use? Lately these are what we have been bringing with us for anchor building and with the test results shown here on the hardware store rapides, it makes me wonder if they are really safe. I vaguely remember reading something about using chain links on Tom's site a while back...

Just like the Rapides, "regular" chain is 'probably' OK, but you can improve your odds by using the Proof-Tested (usually gold-colored) chain available for slightly more.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

According to Pegeut, maker of the mallion rapide they do, "Traction tests at the launch of a new series, followed by random tests."

Sounds like they don't individually test their rapides? My bet is they don't.

I think the hardware store rapid links referenced above were 1/4" ones. That's pretty small. I can't imagine one in the 5/16" or bigger failing anywhere near close to ten times any humans body weight.

When you look at how many rappel anchors are used every day in the world, all off "hardware store" rapides, and, you don't ever hear of any failures, you do have to wonder how big a deal they really are...

Most Intron type load testers can't even fail the ones bigger than 1/4".

Anyone have any data on testing rapides?

I did buy a batch of stainless ones that are 5/16" and I need to bust at least one. If I'm feeling generous, I might try to break three of them. Spendy little dudes.

Seriously, though, at 10mm or 3/8", I can't imagine how poor they'd have to be to fail at even 10X anyone's body weight. They'd need to be missing some serious mass in at least two locations! You can't budge these things even when they are left wide wide open.

In other words, you could cut a slot through one with a hacksaw, and, no way you could pull it apart with someone on rappel. Huge margin, even with the worst phony steel imaginable...

At least that's my thoughts...ha ha.

[ilipichicuma]

According to Pegeut, maker of the mallion rapide they do, "Traction tests at the launch of a new series, followed by random tests."

Sounds like they don't individually test their rapides? My bet is they don't.

I think the hardware store rapid links referenced above were 1/4" ones. That's pretty small. I can't imagine one in the 5/16" or bigger failing anywhere near close to ten times any humans body weight.

When you look at how many rappel anchors are used every day in the world, all off "hardware store" rapides, and, you don't ever hear of any failures, you do have to wonder how big a deal they really are...

Most Intron type load testers can't even fail the ones bigger than 1/4".

Anyone have any data on testing rapides?

I did buy a batch of stainless ones that are 5/16" and I need to bust at least one. If I'm feeling generous, I might try to break three of them. Spendy little dudes.

Seriously, though, at 10mm or 3/8", I can't imagine how poor they'd have to be to fail at even 10X anyone's body weight. They'd need to be missing some serious mass in at least two locations! You can't budge these things even when they are left wide wide open.

In other words, you could cut a slot through one with a hacksaw, and, no way you could pull it apart with someone on rappel. Huge margin, even with the worst phony steel imaginable...

At least that's my thoughts...ha ha.


I agree with this ^. Also, I'd like to point out that the rapid link in question from the beginning of this discussion on rapid links looks like this:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Hj3kVxU-pBg/TuvB3KueWdI/AAAAAAAACH0/NKUNMU_FfXM/h301/DSCI0274.JPG

If that thing fails while I'm on rappel, I submit that I have bigger problems than the fact that I'm falling to my death/injury, and that problem is that I weigh about 30,000 pounds. :haha:

Oh, and there's no need to point out that my belay loop is frayed. I know, and I'm getting a new harness. I love excuses to buy new gear!

[oldno7]

I think the "standard" size for anchor settup is 5/16", at least that is what I always try to use and emphasize.

[Brian in SLC]

Look how small the chain is on Fixe's chain anchors:

http://www.fixehardware.com/chain_anchor.htm

This little fella is rated to 30kN!

[ratagonia]

I agree with this ^. Also, I'd like to point out that the rapid link in question from the beginning of this discussion on rapid links looks like this: If that thing fails while I'm on rappel, I submit that I have bigger problems than the fact that I'm falling to my death/injury, and that problem is that I weigh about 30,000 pounds. :haha: Oh, and there's no need to point out that my belay loop is frayed. I know, and I'm getting a new harness. I love excuses to buy new gear!

And if you buy it from me, for 15$, you can have it in Aluminum so it does not weigh 6 ozs.

But perhaps you are a strong lad.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I think the "standard" size for anchor settup is 5/16", at least that is what I always try to use and emphasize.

That would be 8mm.

I carry those, but I mostly sell 7mm, and a few 6mm.

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

And if you buy it from me, for 15$, you can have it in Aluminum so it does not weigh 6 ozs.

But perhaps you are a strong lad.

Tom

Yeah, I am. :haha:

[oldno7]

And if you buy it from me, for 15$, you can have it in Aluminum so it does not weigh 6 ozs.

But perhaps you are a strong lad.

Tom

OR----

You could purchase a "real" harness with a horizointal tie in and avoid the extra gear and weight altogether.:2thumbs::2thumbs:

[canyoncaver]

Can you explain more about what you mean, here? Others seem to be getting it, but I am not. Are you asserting that your actions/choices are dependent on others' ?

Sure Hank, happy to oblige. I am certainly not trying to assert that my choices are dependent on others. Not sure I completely understand what you mean, but I think I am asserting quite the opposite actually.

What I am saying is that I have a responsibility to set up, evaluate, and use safe anchors for everyone in my group. This responsibility exists independently from whatever garbage anchors I find along the way. If I attempt a canyon with 10 rappels, then I need to come prepared with skills and gear sufficient to rig all ten of those drops. In areas other than Zion, it is quite possible that I may have to build anchors at all ten of those places. This can require a fair amount of gear.

Let's say that you were the last person to descend Canyon X. All of your anchors were safe and appropriate for your group, at that time. When I do the canyon six months later, I come across the remnants of your anchors. In the meantime, they have been exposed to sun, a flash flood has come through, and ravens have been making nests out of the webbing. I take a look at an anchor, decide it looks good to me, and then it fails, killing me. Who is responsible for this accident, you or me? I would say me.

When I see an anchor in a canyon, all I really know is that the anchor probably worked for whoever was here last. Is this enough for me to rig in and go? Hell no. I have the same responsibility to evaluate, test, and possibly rebuild, that I have at every other sketchy canyon anchor.

I come across ridiculous gear in canyons all the time, as I'm sure you do. I am just suggesting that it is valid to use whatever is appropriate for your group. Is it safe? Will it work? If somebody else wants to remove that hardware store link and replace it with a maillon then that is fine. If we have a real responsibility for whoever comes next, then we should all be ghosting all the time, or we should constantly be going back and checking on/removing our anchors all over the Plateau.

Now that I know I can get real rapides from Tom for $3 it is a moot point. All the gear stores up here sell them for $6-$7. If you are leaving five of them per canyon, plus 60 feet of webbing, the costs can really add up over a weekend. I will just order some from Tom and then I will be in the "real maillon" club and everyone can be happy, including some other random people's families that I am somehow now vaguely reponsible for. :2thumbs:

(I still think they should not rely on me but rather make their own choices when it comes to their own personal safety.)

[ratagonia]

...
(I still think they should not rely on me but rather make their own choices when it comes to their own personal safety.)

Well stated.

However, regardless of agreement on the point that "they" SHOULD take full responsibility for all anchors, "they" do not. I think that is the point, that you ARE, defacto, the anchor setter for all the groups that come behind you, until another canyoneer who is "smarter than the average bear" comes along. To some extent.

Tom :moses:

[DOSS]

Well stated.

However, regardless of agreement on the point that "they" SHOULD take full responsibility for all anchors, "they" do not. I think that is the point, that you ARE, defacto, the anchor setter for all the groups that come behind you, until another canyoneer who is "smarter than the average bear" comes along. To some extent.

Tom :moses:

Darwin's theory should be allowed to do its job without people initiating survival of the dimmest...

[trackrunner]

Darwin's theory should be allowed to do its job without people initiating survival of the dimmest...

yeah but if it did claim one, there would be a lot of people bolting everything in the name of safety, and probably a very poor bolting job. that's why I agree with: "you ARE, defacto, the anchor setter for all the groups that come behind you, until another canyoneer who is "smarter than the average bear" comes along." :cool2: