ACA - Guides - Training

[Don]

Hopefully with the proper training and attentive canyoneering accidents will be averted. Is one of the guide services better than another for training or is there an organization within Bogley for training?

I assume this will start some sort of argument due to the long feelings of old canyoneers but I figure we haven't had a good argument about this for awhile...

The guide services are for profit businesses; they make money by guiding people down canyons. It is not in their long term interest to teach people how to do it themselves.

The best way to learn is to find an experienced canyoneer willing to train you and take you along on trips. Or take courses from the American Canyoneering Association (http://www.canyoneering.net/content/). The ACA is a non-profit training organization. They have a training program for beginners and more advanced training for those interested in furthering their skill set.
The entry level Technical Canyoneering course, some book knowledge and a willingness to go out and train is enough to get you through some beautiful canyons. With those canyons as experience and what you learn from fellow canyoneers in those canyons you decide if you want to further your ACA training. Eventually I'd like to get the advance course and the canyon rescue course...

[rcwild]

Eventually I'd like to get the advance course and the canyon rescue course ...

Thanks for the ACA plug, Don. Just so you know, the offer of free training for OIF and OEF veterans still stands -- it was not a one-time deal -- and it is not limited to the Technical Canyoneering Course. You are welcome to take any course I teach free. That offer applies to Vietnam vets, too.

It's not much compared to the service you guys have given to our country. Just my way of saying thank you.

[Pirana Attack]

The guide services are for profit businesses; they make money by guiding people down canyons. It is not in their long term interest to teach people how to do it themselves.

Or take courses from the American Canyoneering Association. The ACA is a non-profit training organization.
Surely there is someone on these Bogley Forums with more longevity than me and enough huevos to explain to people why and how these two statements are so incorrect.

And how brainwashed Don must be.

[Brian in SLC]

The guide services are for profit businesses; they make money by guiding people down canyons. It is not in their long term interest to teach people how to do it themselves.

Or take courses from the American Canyoneering Association. The ACA is a non-profit training organization.
Surely there is someone on these Bogley Forums with more longevity than me and enough huevos to explain to people why and how these two statements are so incorrect.

And how brainwashed Don must be.

Well, maybe he just knows how to read and "do the math".

Why don't ya fish around on Zion Rock and Zion Adventures websites, look at their prices, then surf on over to the ACA site, and check that out.

Then get back to us...

Thanks,

-Brian in SLC

[oldno7]

The guide services are for profit businesses; they make money by guiding people down canyons. It is not in their long term interest to teach people how to do it themselves.

Or take courses from the American Canyoneering Association. The ACA is a non-profit training organization.
Surely there is someone on these Bogley Forums with more longevity than me and enough huevos to explain to people why and how these two statements are so incorrect.

And how brainwashed Don must be.

Well, maybe he just knows how to read and "do the math".

Why don't ya fish around on Zion Rock and Zion Adventures websites, look at their prices, then surf on over to the ACA site, and check that out.

Then get back to us...

Thanks,

-Brian in SLC

Lee's back.
Same shit, different handle.

[Pubalz]

:popcorn:

[rcwild]

This BS has come up in the past, so let me clarify a few things. The ACA is a non-profit corporation. Non-profit means the corporation does not have any stockholders so no profits are distributed. The ACA has not filed for tax exempt status. If we did, it would be as a 501.c.4. Haven't bothered because we don't make enough money to justify the expenses. If people were beating our door down to give us money, stipulating their donations must be tax deductible, we would reconsider.

A non-profit corporation can pay salaries and reimburse for expenses. If anyone is curious, the ACA paid me around $22,000 in 2008. It will probably be about the same this year. The ACA also reimburses me for expenses. I am reimbursed for mileage and hotels. When the ACA doesn't have enough money to reimburse me, I sleep in my car.

Approximately 80% of the ACA's revenue is generated from courses that I teach personally. It is me supporting the ACA, not the ACA supporting me. I started the first canyoneering guide service in the U.S. in 1990. Every canyon guide in the U.S. either learned from me or learned from someone who learned from me. Most paid very little or nothing for their training. I did it, and continue to do it, out of my own personal passion for this sport.

If anyone has questions about the ACA, just ask.

[ratagonia]

The guide services are for profit businesses; they make money by guiding people down canyons. It is not in their long term interest to teach people how to do it themselves.

Or take courses from the American Canyoneering Association. The ACA is a non-profit training organization.
Surely there is someone on these Bogley Forums with more longevity than me and enough huevos to explain to people why and how these two statements are so incorrect.

And how brainwashed Don must be.

Since I've never been accused of missing a good fight...

Guide Services are a for-profit venture, and (at least at ZAC) we make moola in two categories: 1. Teaching classes for people who want to do it on their own; and 2. Taking people down canyons who have no desire to do it on their own. Did the second one today; great time, great fun.

Rich Carlson (aka The ACA) also teaches classes, offers a somewhat different service and works under a different business structure (including taking a lower wage than I would work for) which allows him to offer training at a lower price. I believe both the ACA and ZAC offer training that is of a high quality.

I received a great deal of training from Rich. For free at the beginning of my canyoneering career, when money was short (thanks Rich) and at a reasonable fee later, when money was slightly more available. I learned a lot. No complaints.

Training costs money. Of course, there are other things that cost money too, like gas for the Suburban, beer, helmets, knowing how to set up your rappel with the right friction, your Wilderness First Aid (WFA) or Wilderness First Responder (WFR) class so you know what to do when your partner loses control of his rap and 'digs in' from 100 feet. Better to get the training for your partner too, that allows him to maintain control of his rappel.

Tom :moses:

[Don]

The guide services are for profit businesses; they make money by guiding people down canyons. It is not in their long term interest to teach people how to do it themselves.

Or take courses from the American Canyoneering Association. The ACA is a non-profit training organization.
Surely there is someone on these Bogley Forums with more longevity than me and enough huevos to explain to people why and how these two statements are so incorrect.

And how brainwashed Don must be.

Or you could explain it yourself since it appears that no one shares your douchebaggery.

Or you could explain why your first post is a blatant attack on a person rather than an introduction or even an opinion on the subject. Thanks for contributing...nothing.

[Don]

Since I've never been accused of missing a good fight...

Guide Services are a for-profit venture, and (at least at ZAC) we make moola in two categories: 1. Teaching classes for people who want to do it on their own; and 2. Taking people down canyons who have no desire to do it on their own. Did the second one today; great time, great fun.

Rich Carlson (aka The ACA) also teaches classes, offers a somewhat different service and works under a different business structure (including taking a lower wage than I would work for) which allows him to offer training at a lower price. I believe both the ACA and ZAC offer training that is of a high quality.

I received a great deal of training from Rich. For free at the beginning of my canyoneering career, when money was short (thanks Rich) and at a reasonable fee later, when money was slightly more available. I learned a lot. No complaints.

Training costs money. Of course, there are other things that cost money too, like gas for the Suburban, beer, helmets, knowing how to set up your rappel with the right friction, your Wilderness First Aid (WFA) or Wilderness First Responder (WFR) class so you know what to do when your partner loses control of his rap and 'digs in' from 100 feet. Better to get the training for your partner too, that allows him to maintain control of his rappel.

Tom :moses:

I stand corrected. I didn't realize you taught canyoneering. And looking back I can see how my post about guide services not training may have come off as offensive to a guide who trains and for that I apologize.

[Don]

Lee's back.
Same shit, different handle.

Who?

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that assclown. Didn't he promise some big revelation about something irrelevant and then never post again?

[Sombeech]

http://i44.tinypic.com/207rwpj.jpg

[oldno7]

Lee's back.
Same shit, different handle.

Who?

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that assclown. Didn't he promise some big revelation about something irrelevant and then never post again?

I'm thinking this is one in the same..........
The one Bruce mentioned might have a severe case of "little, big man syndrome"