Zion Rappel Accident

[Iceaxe]

Just a heads up.... KSL will have a rappelling accident in Zion on tonight. I saw the teaser and it looked like the final rap in Pine Creek.... big ass fall....

"Alex Cabrero: A guy rappelling in Zion NP fell 100 feet to the ground, but WALKED AWAY! His buddy got video of it. We'll show it on KSL 5 News at 10. ..."

:popcorn:

[Don]

I just watched. WTF?

[theking648]

i just saw it..... I hope my mom didn't. she's still conviced that canyoneering is a sin. :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

Man survives 100-foot fall, catches it on tape
June 18, 2009

LEHI -- A Lehi man fell more than 100 feet while rappelling at Zion National Park and walked away with barely any injuries.

Eric Schriever is experienced at rappelling, and admits he made some mistakes, but still can't believe he's alive to talk about it -- not to mention the fact that his friend videotaped the entire fall.

Some say being in Zion National Park is like being closer to a higher power, and Schriever isn't going to argue. "I know there's a God, because there is no other way that I should've come out of there. I was protected," he said.

He and his buddy were getting ready for a 300-foot rappel in the park this past Tuesday. Schriever went first while his buddy videotaped him. Right away, though, both knew something was wrong.

"I lose control and stop midway because there was a knot in the rope. So that saved me from falling even further," Schriever explained while watching the video.

But once he untied the knot, he couldn't stop. Schriever fell more than 100 feet, banging hard against the rock wall before dropping to the rocks below.

"I remember the first hit on my head, and it wasn't until I watched the video that I realized I hit at least two more times on the way down," he said.

In that split second, all Schriever could think of was his wife, two daughters and his unborn son, who is due in just two weeks. "I was like,

[Don]

The friend: Hey, you ok? :popcorn:



Anyone know this guy? I'd really like to know what he meant by didn't use the right gear and rope.

[nonot]

Helmet? Check
Harness? Check
Rigging enough friction? NOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo..........

Wrong rope...WTF?

Looks like he cleared a tangle and had basically let go of his brake hand...I think the "wrong rope" and "not wrapping the safety line enough times" is a load of BS to save face that he fu**ed up and let go of the brake hand.

[Don]

Helmet? Check
Harness? Check
Rigging enough friction? NOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo..........

Wrong rope...WTF?

Looks like he cleared a tangle and had basically let go of his brake hand...I think the "wrong rope" and "not wrapping the safety line enough times" is a load of BS to save face that he fu**ed up and let go of the brake hand.

The lord is my brake hand and he has a plan for me. :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Helmet? Check
Harness? Check
Rigging enough friction? NOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo..........

Wrong rope...WTF?

Looks like he cleared a tangle and had basically let go of his brake hand...I think the "wrong rope" and "not wrapping the safety line enough times" is a load of BS to save face that he fu**ed up and let go of the brake hand.

The lord is my brake hand and he has a plan for me. :2thumbs:

Let's see:

- 300' rappel. You start down and lose control...
- A Miracle - there's a knot in the rope which stops you from going to the bottom - praise the Lord!
- OK, now I'm ready to shake the knot out and continue out of control to the bottom.....

oops.

T

[Sombeech]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6867912

No helmet, no gloves, and a knot in the rope

[denaliguide]

rap his safety line around his rope? what does that mean?

[mrabe1979]

maybe people should pay more attention to what they are doing.. :ne_nau:

[theking648]

rap his safety line around his rope? what does that mean?

O! O! I know this one... my total time rappelling is 3 hours, so don't take my word for it. :lol8:

what is: a small rope that raps around the rappelling rope and hooks into the leg loop so if for some stupid reason you take your brake hand off the rope the safty line will hold it down and keep the break on....


Are you and expert rappeller?

No but i did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

:roflol:

[denaliguide]

rap his safety line around his rope? what does that mean?

O! O! I know this one... my total time rappelling is 3 hours, so don't take my word for it. :lol8:

what is: a small rope that raps around the rappelling rope and hooks into the leg loop so if for some stupid reason you take your brake hand off the rope the safty line will hold it down and keep the break on....


Are you and expert rappeller?

No but i did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

:roflol:

ah yes, the prussik. that must be what they were refering too.

[moab mark]

That is one lucky guy. Can you say GLOVES!!!!!


No gloves rope burns, $14.99 on Mastercard. PRICELESS.

Glad he is ok.

Mark

[oldno7]

That is one lucky guy. Can you say GLOVES!!!!!


No gloves rope burns, $14.99 on Mastercard. PRICELESS.

Glad he is ok.

Mark

Or-----
He could get some training and learn how to rappel correctly as to not heat your hand. I've done Englestead twice and never required a glove, and my hand never got hot. Now that's PRICELESS.

So knowing when to use a 8mm rope.
knowing when to use an auto-bloc, more importantly--HOW(rarely).
knowing how to lock off on rappel.
knowing how to adjust friction on a 300' rappel.(especially 8mm)
getting over your head on canyon selection--priceless

I'm sure all the bogleyfesters know about all these techniques(and more) as they head into Englestead. :nod:
It's all fun and games until someone DIES.

[moab mark]

I wondered how long it would take for you to respond.No matter how much training something can always go wrong. When it does ill take cowhide over flesh.

He's a lucky dude.

[rcwild]

I wondered how long it would take for you to respond.No matter how much training something can always go wrong. When it does ill take cowhide over flesh.

Gloves may have prevented the blisters on his fingers, but unlikely they would have stopped him from falling. Key point is he should have rigged more friction for such a long rappel on 8mm rope.

Autoblock = false sense of security.

[oldno7]

I really don't have a problem with gloves, the problem is mis-use of gloves.
If you already know how to properly control and change friction on rappel and just want a glove to protect your dishwashing softened hands--that's o.k.

If you want to use a glove as a mask, to hide the fact you don't know how to adjust proper friction, that will result in eventual problems.
just sayin' :ne_nau:

[ratagonia]

I really don't have a problem with gloves, the problem is mis-use of gloves.
If you already know how to properly control and change friction on rappel and just want a glove to protect your dishwashing softened hands--that's o.k.

If you want to use a glove as a mask, to hide the fact you don't know how to adjust proper friction, that will result in eventual problems.
just sayin' :ne_nau:

he did not do a good job of hiding...

T

[oldno7]

I really don't have a problem with gloves, the problem is mis-use of gloves.
If you already know how to properly control and change friction on rappel and just want a glove to protect your dishwashing softened hands--that's o.k.

If you want to use a glove as a mask, to hide the fact you don't know how to adjust proper friction, that will result in eventual problems.
just sayin' :ne_nau:

he did not do a good job of hiding...

T


Seems kinda obvious from the video, huh. :eek2:

[Brian in SLC]

Gloves may have prevented the blisters on his fingers, but unlikely they would have stopped him from falling. Key point is he should have rigged more friction for such a long rappel on 8mm rope.

Autoblock = false sense of security.

I dunno. From this picture, almost looks thicker than 8mm? I'm comparing the width of the rope to the width of his thumb...

http://media.bonnint.net/slc/1216/121614/12161487.jpg

I think an autoblock, properly deployed, can be pretty useful.

http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/1803.jpg

One of my main climbing partners (see above) uses one all the time. He can stop and start on a rappel on a dime, with no effort. Of course, its usually on double ropes...

Couple of comments...I can't imagine dropping into Englestead on a single 8mm rope, on a single ATC, and not rigging for additional friction. The very idear is frightening. Glove or not (I didn't use a glove on that or any of the times I've done Heaps). Two ATCs, one above the other: smooth as silk.

Knot in the rope? I can't imagine deploying rope for a long rappel like that and having a knot in the rope. Should be carefully lowering the rope, or, using a rope bag? Yikes. It can be pretty darn scary to stop on a super steep rappel to untangle a rope...

Ain't no miracle. Had enough friction from the ATC on the rope to slow him down enough, but, that video is painful to watch.

Take care out there you canyoneering rappellers!

-Brian in SLC

[rcwild]

One of my main climbing partners (see above) uses one all the time. He can stop and start on a rappel on a dime, with no effort. Of course, its usually on double ropes...

Your EXPERIENCED partner. My issue is with autoblocks being sold to beginners as a panacea. Emphasis should be on rigging for the correct amount of friction. I am seeing people getting slopping with their friction because they "know" their autoblock will save them if they get it wrong. Nervous beginners are unlikely to let their autoblocks lock up. Instinct says to grab the rope tighter when you lose control.


Knot in the rope? I can't imagine deploying rope for a long rappel like that and having a knot in the rope. Should be carefully lowering the rope, or, using a rope bag? Yikes. It can be pretty darn scary to stop on a super steep rappel to untangle a rope...

Knot? Or birds nest form a sloppy throw? Either way, sounds like it was the knot that stopped him ?? He should have locked off above the knot/nest to untie/untangle. Would have given him an opportunity to fix his autoblock -- more wraps, tighter wraps, whatever.

[Brian in SLC]

Your EXPERIENCED partner. My issue is with autoblocks being sold to beginners as a panacea. Emphasis should be on rigging for the correct amount of friction. I am seeing people getting slopping with their friction because they "know" their autoblock will save them if they get it wrong. Nervous beginners are unlikely to let their autoblocks lock up. Instinct says to grab the rope tighter when you lose control.

Absolutely. And, he's got his system super dialed. Learned from a long time guide in the French alps (also a fairly well known Petzl guy)...


Knot? Or birds nest form a sloppy throw? Either way, sounds like it was the knot that stopped him ?? He should have locked off above the knot/nest to untie/untangle. Would have given him an opportunity to fix his autoblock -- more wraps, tighter wraps, whatever.

He was oughta control, hit the knot/tangle, stopped, undid the knot, and went out of control again? Wow.

I think for most folks, if they've blown their friction, and their autoblock isn't working, they won't be able to "fix" most anything on a really steep rappel, especially on a skinny single rope.

Go for the body wrap around! Get your friction on...

Makes my hands sweaty thinkin' about it...

Cheers, Rich!

-Brian in SLC

[rcwild]

He was oughta control, hit the knot/tangle, stopped, undid the knot, and went out of control again? Wow.

I think for most folks, if they've blown their friction, and their autoblock isn't working, they won't be able to "fix" most anything on a really steep rappel, especially on a skinny single rope.

Go for the body wrap around! Get your friction on...

Makes my hands sweaty thinkin' about it...

Cheers, Rich!

-Brian in SLC


Wonder why he thought he would have more control after the knot than he had above it?

Cheers!

[R]

It's all fun and games until someone DIES.

Philosophic aside: this is always true about everything, even life itself.

[oldno7]

It's all fun and games until someone DIES.

Philosophic aside: this is always true about everything, even life itself.

So if next weekend there happens to be a couple of bogleyites get killed it's o.k.?
And "maybe" it could have been prevented, with a little training, but no need to mention it. It was just their time. c'est la vie................

[Iceaxe]

:roll: I think Richard is just pointing out there is danger in everything we do.....

At some point in life people have to cut the apron strings and actually experiance the adventure.

I don't think there is a soul on this forum who considers training a bad thing..... but sooner or later you have to get off the porch and run with the big dogs..... or you could visit Disneyland instead....

:popcorn:

[oldno7]

:roll: I think Richard is just pointing out there is danger in everything we do.....

At some point in life people have to cut the apron strings and actually experiance the adventure.

I don't think there is a soul on this forum who considers training a bad thing..... but sooner or later you have to get off the porch and run with the big dogs..... or you could visit Disneyland instead....

:popcorn:

And I'm not disputing that........
It's all about calculating risk vs, unnecessary risk.
Do we toss the keys to our kids when they're 16 and say, have a great night out on State street. Or do they go through a drivers ed program and learn about what they are doing, then casually sneak down to State street?
I'll be done, sorry for the break in fun.
Think I'll head to disneyland next weekend :mrgreen:

[Iceaxe]

Do we toss the keys to our kids when they're 16 and say, have a great night out on State street. Or do they go through a drivers ed program and learn about what they are doing, then casually sneak down to State street?

Bad example.... drivers ed in the US is probably the biggest joke I know of.....

There is no way in hell my kids are getting the keys to the car until after they have been through a real driving school and completed both a Highway Safety and High Proformace class.... but after the class I'll turn them loose....

FWIW: Miller Motorspors Park teaches them in Salt Lake and Las Vegas Motor Speedway teaches them in Vegas.


:cool2:

[oldno7]

Do we toss the keys to our kids when they're 16 and say, have a great night out on State street. Or do they go through a drivers ed program and learn about what they are doing, then casually sneak down to State street?

Bad example....

There is no way in hell my kids are getting the keys to the car until after they have been through a real driving school and completed both a Highway Safety and High Proformace class.... but after the class I'll turn them loose....



:cool2:

My job is done here............ :haha:

[Don]

I'm going to be in Englestead next Friday for Bogleyfest. We've already done some planning and training for this canyon but we've gone over our plan again this morning because of this.
We'll still do the canyon but it sure gets a person thinking...

[ratagonia]

I'm going to be in Englestead next Friday for Bogleyfest. We've already done some planning and training for this canyon but we've gone over our plan again this morning because of this.
We'll still do the canyon but it sure gets a person thinking...

And what is your plan???

I have 2 - 300' 9mm ropes which you can use. I plan on using them.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

I have 2 - 300' 9mm ropes which you can use. I plan on using them.

Oh, no, not the dreaded, don't say it, double rope rappel?

Pad that edge well would be a decent start...

Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

[R]

It's all fun and games until someone DIES.

Philosophic aside: this is always true about everything, even life itself.

So if next weekend there happens to be a couple of bogleyites get killed it's o.k.?
And "maybe" it could have been prevented, with a little training, but no need to mention it. It was just their time. c'est la vie................

That is so NOT what I meant.

Sorry I even joined the conversation.

[Don]

I'm going to be in Englestead next Friday for Bogleyfest. We've already done some planning and training for this canyon but we've gone over our plan again this morning because of this.
We'll still do the canyon but it sure gets a person thinking...

And what is your plan???

I have 2 - 300' 9mm ropes which you can use. I plan on using them.

Tom

Not having the 300' rope we were going to stage it. Are your ropes available next Friday? Let me talk to Josh but we might take you up on that...

[Iceaxe]

Not having the 300' rope we were going to stage it.

Staging Englestead is not that big of deal. For a number a reasons I prefer to stage this start over the 300' direct entry....

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

I have 2 - 300' 9mm ropes which you can use. I plan on using them.

Oh, no, not the dreaded, don't say it, double rope rappel?
Pad that edge well would be a decent start...
Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

While getting down 2-9mm static ropes would be a worthy challenge, no... I set two ropes up side by side, and two people can rappel at the same time. Helps to do this at the head of the watercourse, because there is no loose rock there (thus allowing a simultaneous rappel). Also, the 'rescue' line is already set up, if someone should get stuck.

Tom

[nonot]

First time could be an accident, second time proves the guy is not the brightest bulb on the shelf.

Someone said it best.

He got out of control and began falling to his death. By some miracle he got stopped halfway. So what does this dimwit decide to do...free the rope with no hesitation and try the second time to kill himself?

Miracle he survived...some divine power? Not really...just shows at least his rappelling device was rigged properly. I've always wondered how fast you would go if you just let go of the rope. Now I know and it doesn't look like there's too much to be scared of as long as you have a helmet...which after looking at the video again, he didn't.

Did anyone else notice his burns are on the tips of his fingers...if I was falling and grabbing onto the rope I damn well would have my palms scarred for life. (Edit: he was wearing fingerless gloves, so this last statement is not applicable)

[Brian in SLC]

Did anyone else notice his burns are on the tips of his fingers...if I was falling and grabbing onto the rope I damn well would have my palms scarred for life.

Hmmm...

Pretty common, when grabbing for rope, that the fingers take the brunt of it.

http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/1804.jpg

Folk who were at the rondy on Crete might remember the above...

-Brian in SLC

[Scott Card]

This accident has me stumped. Could the camera have played a role in this? Trying to look cool and fast from the top? I gotta tell you I hope I would have had the good sense that IF I were to have lost control and by chance a knot has stuck me, I hope I would have tied off, screamed for help like a girl or something other than lose it again. Also, with the weight of the rope, I have never been able to go fast or anywhere near fast at the start of that rap. :ne_nau: It is the bottom 100 feet that needs my attention on that rap and the Heaps final rap.

[nat]

This accident has me stumped. Could the camera have played a role in this? Trying to look cool and fast from the top? I gotta tell you I hope I would have had the good sense that IF I were to have lost control and by chance a knot has stuck me, I hope I would have tied off, screamed for help like a girl or something other than lose it again. Also, with the weight of the rope, I have never been able to go fast or anywhere near fast at the start of that rap. :ne_nau: It is the bottom 100 feet that needs my attention on that rap and the Heaps final rap.

My wife had a similar response on seeing the video: "What the ... is he doing, racing down at the beginning like that; posing for the camera?" :haha:

[Brian in SLC]

Was on this morning's Today Show:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/

Q and A was pretty interesting. One of the mistakes: wrong belay device for the rope diameter as it didn't have enough "tension".

No helmet.

Wore gloves: fingerless (hence the burns).

Less miracle talk than on the KSL piece.

Pretty entertaining bit. Kinda funny too.

You first time "english dead" folks take care in there. This is what, now, at least three folks who've blown this rappel and lived to tell the tale? Not counting the cougar huntin' dog that lived fallling in too (RIP the cougar though).

Get your pack off your back! Rig some adequate friction from the get go and have some additiional friction options! Use a larger diameter rope! Know how to add friction on the fly! Go slowly and methodically, in control!

Crazy stuff.

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

Thanks Brian :2thumbs:

Here is the direct link into the video and interview
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/31461108#31461108

:popcorn:

[nonot]

For all those bashing oldno, he was wearing gloves, albeit fingerless ones.

Gloves are no substitute for knowing how to rig and adjust rappels for proper friction!

[Scott Card]

In my newbie brain, fingerless gloves are almost as useful as shorty wetsuits! :haha:

[moab mark]

So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

Mark

[Iceaxe]

So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

I've been thinking about this myself.....

If you go down you are probably 2 or 3 hours minimum from reaching any help and that's if you jug 260' back out. If it's me I only have very basic emergency medical skills and nothing much to work with in my first aid kit. And let's face it.... this is probably not going to be a band-aids and aspirin fix..... and you are going to need help no matter what....

If you take off immediately you can be at the Zion Ponderosa in 30 minutes and have a major rescue force including trained medical and a helicopter in route to the accident....

I'm heading to the Zion Ponderosa to alert trained rescue and medical as fast as I can.....

:cool2:

[Pubalz]

Hope he didnt have the keys with him :haha:

[rcwild]

You have to rappel down to him to assess his injuries. ABCD -- Airway, Breathing, Circulation, Disability. If he has a blocked airway, isn't breathing, has no pulse or is bleeding profusely, he will be dead before you return with help. Disability relates to level of consciousness and possible spinal injury.

Give him the first aid he needs to save his life, THEN decide whether to stay with him or go for help.

[robjenson]

link to today show interview:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/31461108#31461108

There's a part where the host says "you can't go back up" and he responds "I can't climb 300'." Seems to me like he thought the only way to get back up was climbing up the actual rock...but doesn't he have the rope there..and if he is conscious and fine (except for his fingers), can't he ascend the rope using prusik knots...i haven't done too many canyons, but have practiced using prusiks to ascend 30 feet...just seems to me that this "expert" rappeller doesn't know about ascending ropes...but i could be wrong...300' would be daunting to ascend...

also, seems like he doesn't know how to adjust friction and how to use his rappel device....

[Sombeech]

jeez, I'm going to do something like this so I can get national recognition.


Either that or just go streaking at the next ReAL game

[Iceaxe]

So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

OK... I had the opportunity to put this question to a group of professional paramedics and a life flight crew this past weekend.... and after much discussion and "what if's" the group eventually came to the consensus that your first obligation in this situation would be to get help. The kicker in the conversation was "so you go down and give CPR, and after 20 minutes you have used yourself up and than you are screwed".

It was interesting listening to the pros hash out the options.....

:popcorn:

[Don]

So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

OK... I had the opportunity to put this question to a group of professional paramedics and a life flight crew this past weekend.... and after much discussion and "what if's" the group eventually came to the consensus that your first obligation in this situation would be to get help. The kicker in the conversation was "so you go down and give CPR, and after 20 minutes you have used yourself up and than you are screwed".

It was interesting listening to the pros hash out the options.....

:popcorn:

Pro advice or not; it would be a tough call leaving a buddy without assessing and providing first aid. Alone I would almost certainly go down and assess/aid. I wouldn't go down if it seemed likely I would repeat the accident or if it were clear my parter was already dead.
I think I would prefer having a third team member around which would free up one to run and one to stay...

[oldno7]

So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

OK... I had the opportunity to put this question to a group of professional paramedics and a life flight crew this past weekend.... and after much discussion and "what if's" the group eventually came to the consensus that your first obligation in this situation would be to get help. The kicker in the conversation was "so you go down and give CPR, and after 20 minutes you have used yourself up and than you are screwed".

It was interesting listening to the pros hash out the options.....

:popcorn:


I think I would prefer having a third team member around which would free up one to run and one to stay...

I know we all don't abide by this idea, but it sure changes the procedure, and could save a life in the more remote canyons.
Maybe something to think about when organizing our trips.

[Iceaxe]

I think I would prefer having a third team member around which would free up one to run and one to stay...

I always figured a team of 3 or 4 to be ideal, but I don't think I fully appreciated the safety margin a third member adds until now.

:popcorn:

[rcwild]

[quote=moab mark]OK... I had the opportunity to put this question to a group of professional paramedics and a life flight crew this past weekend.... and after much discussion and "what if's" the group eventually came to the consensus that your first obligation in this situation would be to get help. The kicker in the conversation was "so you go down and give CPR, and after 20 minutes you have used yourself up and than you are screwed".

It was interesting listening to the pros hash out the options ...


Bullsh---

It is possible to play the "what if" game until your buddy makes a miraculous recovery or until everybody, including all the rescuers and bystanders, dies. But, if you presented the scenario as Mark presented it, no competent professional would recommend leaving him without assessing his injuries first.

If you go down and perform CPR for 20 minutes and exhaust yourself, you have plenty of time to rest and recover because your buddy is dead and there is no rush getting help.

Bottom line remains the same ... If you go for help and it turns out your buddy needed basic life support, he will be dead when you return.

The only way you can tweak this scenario to justify going for help instead of going down to assess your buddy is if there are imminent dangers to you, i.e. you don't know how to rappel, there is no rope to rappel on, the rope has been compromised, rockfall, flash flood, etc. etc.

I won't even buy the argument that you can't go down because you don't know how to ascend back up. First things first. Save your buddy's life.

Other tangents to this thread should include -- Is it appropriate to go out with only two people? Especially if they are both beginners? Should there always be at least one person on a team who knows how to ascend? Better for everyone to know how? What kind of first aid kits are people carrying? What kind of first aid skills do people have, especially considering the remote terrain we venture into? Etc. Etc.

[rcwild]

People should start using this scenario for screening partners. If they say they would go for help ... look for a different partner.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: I don't have a dog in this race..... my medical training consists of choosing between a Star Wars or Barbie band-aid.

I'll tell you right now.... if I'm your partner you want me going for help, I'm fast as the wind.... that.... and I think blood is icky......

:cripple:

[Scott Card]

Excellent points and tangents Rich. Running off for help without assessing the situation remindes me of my mother-in-law when one of her kids (now all grown) didn't come home on time. She would hop in the car and start driving. Not driving to a location just driving and looking for them. Made no sense to anyone but the panic and worry took over any rational thought process.

[mmac]

Bottom line remains the same ... If you go for help and it turns out your buddy needed basic life support, he will be dead when you return.

First things first. Save your buddy's life.

Other tangents to this thread should include -- Is it appropriate to go out with only two people? Especially if they are both beginners? Should there always be at least one person on a team who knows how to ascend? Better for everyone to know how? What kind of first aid kits are people carrying? What kind of first aid skills do people have, especially considering the remote terrain we venture into? Etc. Etc.

I agree. If your buddy(s) can assess themselves, get an idea of what's wrong and then go for help. If there's no response, you're responsible for their ABC's.

We always have at least 3 people when we go out. We've generally got two people who carry gear for, and know enough to ascend out of a tricky spot if necessary. I have an EMT certification as well as Wilderness First Responder training. Most of the people I travel with have basic First Aid/CPR. I carry a pretty substantial medkit in my car (if we can make it there, we're set until professional help can arrive), but strip it down a lot when we go into a canyon.

I generally carry:
a pocket knife
2 pairs of non-latex gloves
roll of duct tape
triangle bandage
ace bandage
individually wrapped alcohol and iodine wipes
8 benadryl extra strength
12 advil extra strength
4 aspirin
4 hydrocodone

The Imlay packs we use as well as clothing and the available natural resources have many pieces that can be removed (or cut off) to form splints, litters, bandages, etc... I think those things work pretty well for addressing most common minor-moderate injuries, and could be used to stabilize many patients until professional help can arrive.


Disclaimer!: Good Samaritan Laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law) do not protect a first responder using some of the equipment I've listed above. It is illegal to administer any Rx drugs to a person who was not issued an Rx by their doctor. Proper training and knowledge is required before attempting to administer any form of aid.

[Randi]

Excellent points and tangents Rich. Running off for help without assessing the situation remindes me of my mother-in-law when one of her kids (now all grown) didn't come home on time. She would hop in the car and start driving. Not driving to a location just driving and looking for them. Made no sense to anyone but the panic and worry took over any rational thought process.

OMG ~ I used to do that too, with my kids! I'm pretty sure that all moms think alike. Your mom didn't do that Scott when you didn't come home? :ne_nau:

I agree with all of the points Rich made. Having taken a first responder course, one of the things you learn, as a medically trained individual is that you have an obligation to assess, stabilize, and help a victim, "if" endangering yourself isn't imminent.

But, if you have no medical training, I can also see the dilemma.
(Actually, even with medical training I could envision being torn).
Standing on the edge of a 300

[moab mark]

Sure makes you think about having 3 people when you think of a situation like this. Since I was just there last week my buddy, who is a ER doctor, we have discussed this quite a bit. He votes with Rich on going down to help. By the time help got there his odds are pretty high he would be dead. With your help who knows? It is a tough call. This is where the spot or sat phone really comes into play. I haul a Sat Phone and in most slots it is worthless but you might be able to climb out and make a call. At Englestead a call would go right out. With a spot you could trigger it and leave it at the top.

At least 3 guys seems like the smart way to go. Oh and 2 fm radios. We had two with us and without them you cannot even communicate at that distance.

Mark

[UtahAdventureGuide]

Last couple canyons i've done we've carried a SAT phone with us. Mostly because my friends wife makes us after our Subway trip a couple years ago. We've been able to get brief areas of coverage in canyons like the Subway and Imlay. I'm going to carry a SPOT with me now.

[moab mark]

Sure makes you think about having 3 people when you think of a situation like this. Since I was just there last week my buddy, who is a ER doctor, we have discussed this quite a bit. He votes with Rich on going down to help. By the time help got there his odds are pretty high he would be dead. With your help who knows? It is a tough call. This is where the spot or sat phone really comes into play. I haul a Sat Phone and in most slots it is worthless but you might be able to climb out and make a call. At Englestead a call would go right out. With a spot you could trigger it and leave it at the top.

At least 3 guys seems like the smart way to go. Oh and 2 fm radios. We had two with us and without them you cannot even communicate at that distance.

Mark



I no more hit send and my Doc buddy calls me back from the ER. Him and 4 other ER doctors and the helicopter pilot in the ER have been discussing this scenario at work today.

Where a communication could be sent out in reasonable time they are all voting for going for help. Even at there training level they would go for help and then come back and rappel into the hole. They would not wait for help before going back but they would get help coming. They feel the scenarios of what is probably wrong with the person is beyond most peoples training and you have now increased the time for help to get there by hours.
So it's a bad situation regardless.

As far as spot's somewhere on here is a thread I started this winter about an actual spot rescue of a snowmobiler. Before buying a spot I would go find that thread and read it. They have some merit and are better than nothing but...... I am not sure if I ever followed up on that thread with the final conclusion. Spot did not send the helicopter the guys who rode out and went to someone's home got life flight in route. What spot will pay for is the cost of the helicopter if your insurance doesn't cover it. They do not dispatch helicopters. Lincoln County Search and Rescue did not have to high of a opinion of Spot when talking with my buddy after the fact. They have had multiple false alarms do to them. Spot being used for flats out of gas etc. Not using the function to send a message to buddy but actually pushing the 911 button. He has since bought a Sat Phone.

Mark

[ratagonia]

OK... I had the opportunity to put this question to a group of professional paramedics and a life flight crew this past weekend.... and after much discussion and "what if's" the group eventually came to the consensus that your first obligation in this situation would be to get help. The kicker in the conversation was "so you go down and give CPR, and after 20 minutes you have used yourself up and than you are screwed".

It was interesting listening to the pros hash out the options ...


Bullsh---

It is possible to play the "what if" game until your buddy makes a miraculous recovery or until everybody, including all the rescuers and bystanders, dies. But, if you presented the scenario as Mark presented it, no competent professional would recommend leaving him without assessing his injuries first.

If you go down and perform CPR for 20 minutes and exhaust yourself, you have plenty of time to rest and recover because your buddy is dead and there is no rush getting help.

Bottom line remains the same ... If you go for help and it turns out your buddy needed basic life support, he will be dead when you return.

The only way you can tweak this scenario to justify going for help instead of going down to assess your buddy is if there are imminent dangers to you, i.e. you don't know how to rappel, there is no rope to rappel on, the rope has been compromised, rockfall, flash flood, etc. etc.

I won't even buy the argument that you can't go down because you don't know how to ascend back up. First things first. Save your buddy's life.

Other tangents to this thread should include -- Is it appropriate to go out with only two people? Especially if they are both beginners? Should there always be at least one person on a team who knows how to ascend? Better for everyone to know how? What kind of first aid kits are people carrying? What kind of first aid skills do people have, especially considering the remote terrain we venture into? Etc. Etc.

What he said.

Then again, if the 'partner' cannot ascend the rope, and cannot provide even basic care, it might be better for them to run for help.

T :moses:

[RedRoxx]

Again, from a caver's perspective, if ya go down a rope should learn how to go up a rope and carry something to do that.
The latest NSS journal interviewed an old time caver, he had ascended Golindras ( big Mexico pit cave) three times with knots-----that's over 1000 feet and normally you have to do a free hanging rope transfer about 100 feet from the top.
I'll take my handled ascender thank you ( and my tiblocs).

[sarahlizzy]

Looking at the news report, and what's been said here, I guess this guy's life was saved by a combination of:

a) A knot
b) bouncing off the cliff a few times
c) a less than effectual autobloc
d) third degree burns to the fingers

Does that sound reasonable?

I was looking at the video and thinking right away, "He's going way too fast". I've never done a rap that long, and not on 8mm rope, but as a newbie I think I'd at least want a biner on my leg loop, probably with the rope already through it (and a munter hitch?) at the start, if not a full Z-rig.

And probably two biners on the ATC/belay loop.

Or am I way off base here?

[rcwild]

I no more hit send and my Doc buddy calls me back from the ER. Him and 4 other ER doctors and the helicopter pilot in the ER have been discussing this scenario at work today.

Where a communication could be sent out in reasonable time they are all voting for going for help. Even at there training level they would go for help and then come back and rappel into the hole. They would not wait for help before going back but they would get help coming. They feel the scenarios of what is probably wrong with the person is beyond most peoples training and you have now increased the time for help to get there by hours.

If you don't rap down to assess and instead run for help, when you return I think you will find one of four situations:

1. He wasn't hurt or his injuries were not life-threatening. Long-term prognosis varies from full recovery to paralyzed for life, etc. Basically, he did not have problems with A, B or C. The choice you made was immaterial.

2. He was dead on impact or suffered injuries that were so severe there was nothing anyone could have done to save him. Death may occur in the canyon, while being transported or at the trauma center. The choice you made was immaterial.

3. He suffered injuries that were life-threatening, but beyond your ability to treat. He needs to receive definitive care as quickly as possible. You MIGHT have made the correct decision.

Problem with #3 is that the scenarios include things like head injuries that result in intracranial pressure. You can't treat it in the field. But severe head injuries often result in vomiting, which can create airway problems. He will die faster from the airway problem than he will from the intracranial pressure. With basic first aid skills, you could deal with the airway problem. Another example might be internal bleeding that results in volume shock. You can't treat the internal bleeding in the field, but you can treat for shock to buy him some time.

4. He is dead or will die, but basic first aid - ABCs - could have saved him. You made the wrong decision.

Kinda bothers me when scenarios like this are tweaked with variables like, "What if you don't know how to ascend back out?" or "What if you don't know basic first aid?" Just pondering the scenario should encourage everyone to acquire these skills.

[Don]

Kinda bothers me when scenarios like this are tweaked with variables like, "What if you don't know how to ascend back out?" or "What if you don't know basic first aid?" Just pondering the scenario should encourage everyone to acquire these skills.

+1

[Brian in SLC]

I was looking at the video and thinking right away, "He's going way too fast". I've never done a rap that long, and not on 8mm rope, but as a newbie I think I'd at least want a biner on my leg loop, probably with the rope already through it (and a munter hitch?) at the start, if not a full Z-rig.

And probably two biners on the ATC/belay loop.

You got it.

I guess another thing I'd add to the list would be to get that pack off your back, and, onto your harness. It may have contributed to his "going over" and losing control of the rappel. But...when he smacked against the cliff wall, it was the only thing that prevented him from direct contract with the cliff too.

Here's how I rigged for Englestead:

http://mtncommunity.org/dcforum/User_files/3d78f6fe38e10e15.jpg

I'm not a big fan of that munter hitch on the leg loop. Much bigger fan of adding another rappel device, from the harness, on, say, a full length sling. Smooth. The munter is way too twisty. But, I'd still have a biner more'n likely on each leg loop and one or more handy on the harness in case I wanted to direct the rope back up in a Z.

Also, not a big fan of that rappel device (B-52) as its too "wide open" for my preference (amongst other things). I more commonly use ATCs and/or ATC pro or guides but I've also become quite enamored with my new Petzl Reverso 3 too.

I sometimes add a biner or two to an ATC to give more friction. Its a nice trick to know.

Yeah, I'd never start a rappel that fast. Commonly done, though, when I see some folks practising rappelling, they're all about the bouncy bouncy rapido style. Seasoned climbers typically never do that, as maybe they've gone off so many sketchy anchors, and, ruined a few ropes over edges too, that they're much more cautious and careful as a group, methinks. Slow and steady. It ain't about a bungee jump adrenaline rush, its about gettin' down effectively.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

I was looking at the video and thinking right away, "He's going way too fast". I've never done a rap that long, and not on 8mm rope, but as a newbie I think I'd at least want a biner on my leg loop, probably with the rope already through it (and a munter hitch?) at the start, if not a full Z-rig.

And probably two biners on the ATC/belay loop.

You got it.

I guess another thing I'd add to the list would be to get that pack off your back, and, onto your harness. It may have contributed to his "going over" and losing control of the rappel. But...when he smacked against the cliff wall, it was the only thing that prevented him from direct contract with the cliff too.

Here's how I rigged for Englestead:

http://mtncommunity.org/dcforum/User_files/3d78f6fe38e10e15.jpg

I'm not a big fan of that munter hitch on the leg loop. Much bigger fan of adding another rappel device, from the harness, on, say, a full length sling. Smooth. The munter is way too twisty. But, I'd still have a biner more'n likely on each leg loop and one or more handy on the harness in case I wanted to direct the rope back up in a Z.

Also, not a big fan of that rappel device (B-52) as its too "wide open" for my preference (amongst other things). I more commonly use ATCs and/or ATC pro or guides but I've also become quite enamored with my new Petzl Reverso 3 too.

I sometimes add a biner or two to an ATC to give more friction. Its a nice trick to know.

Yeah, I'd never start a rappel that fast. Commonly done, though, when I see some folks practising rappelling, they're all about the bouncy bouncy rapido style. Seasoned climbers typically never do that, as maybe they've gone off so many sketchy anchors, and, ruined a few ropes over edges too, that they're much more cautious and careful as a group, methinks. Slow and steady. It ain't about a bungee jump adrenaline rush, its about gettin' down effectively.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

And of course, one would want to play with and understand all the variables in a safe environment, as in 10 feet off the ground. I have used the munter hitch leg loop biner several times on the Heaps rap. It is somewhat of a problem as it will try to unclip from the carabiner, but it is adjustable "in combat".

Tom

[ratagonia]

Looking at the news report, and what's been said here, I guess this guy's life was saved by a combination of:

a) A knot
b) bouncing off the cliff a few times
c) a less than effectual autobloc
d) third degree burns to the fingers

Does that sound reasonable?

I was looking at the video and thinking right away, "He's going way too fast". I've never done a rap that long, and not on 8mm rope, but as a newbie I think I'd at least want a biner on my leg loop, probably with the rope already through it (and a munter hitch?) at the start, if not a full Z-rig.

And probably two biners on the ATC/belay loop.

Or am I way off base here?

You discount his claims of divine intervention???

T

[sarahlizzy]

Looking at the news report, and what's been said here, I guess this guy's life was saved by a combination of:

a) A knot
b) bouncing off the cliff a few times
c) a less than effectual autobloc
d) third degree burns to the fingers

Does that sound reasonable?

I was looking at the video and thinking right away, "He's going way too fast". I've never done a rap that long, and not on 8mm rope, but as a newbie I think I'd at least want a biner on my leg loop, probably with the rope already through it (and a munter hitch?) at the start, if not a full Z-rig.

And probably two biners on the ATC/belay loop.

Or am I way off base here?

You discount his claims of divine intervention???

T

Oh yes, silly me! I forgot about the angel catching him at the bottom :haha:

Are we still OK to borrow those ropes, btw?

[ratagonia]

Oh yes, silly me! I forgot about the angel catching him at the bottom :haha:

Are we still OK to borrow those ropes, btw?

Yes, no problem. Tom

[Don]

Oh yes, silly me! I forgot about the angel catching him at the bottom :haha:

Are we still OK to borrow those ropes, btw?

Yes, no problem. Tom

Speaking of borrowed ropes; I never got back to you about borrowing for Engelstead. After talking it over in detail with Josh and then explaining the plan to our other guys we

[ratagonia]

[quote=sarahlizzy]
Oh yes, silly me! I forgot about the angel catching him at the bottom :haha:

Are we still OK to borrow those ropes, btw?

Yes, no problem. Tom

Speaking of borrowed ropes; I never got back to you about borrowing for Engelstead. After talking it over in detail with Josh and then explaining the plan to our other guys we

[Iceaxe]

[quote=Don]One question though. Is there enough room on that ledge for me to hang out and supervise the transition for the guy who

[Don]

[quote=Iceaxe][quote=Don]One question though. Is there enough room on that ledge for me to hang out and supervise the transition for the guy who

[bcubed]

Since it seems that a great deal of this accident was due to a lack of friction I have some newbie questions relating to friction on a rappel device. I am somewhat new to canyoneering and most of my rappelling experience is in climbing i.e. thicker ropes and double strand rappelling.
I recently purchased a Petzel Piranha to rappel with and I really enjoy the ability to adjust friction on it but I haven't done a long rappel on it. I was wondering what friction mode it needs to be put into to be comparable to say the friction from an ATC guide (which I previously used)? If I were to do the 300' rappel that this thread is discussing would I need to put as much friction on the the pirahna as possible AND use a leg carabiner or would the piranha by itself be able to provide enough friction?
I apologize because I do realize this question is likely a bit ambiguous but I would rather ask here then get a video posted of me here falling down a 300' rappel.
As a frame a reference for the friction I would need I weigh about 155 lb.

[Scott Card]

One other factor that may have been an issue, this guy's pack seemed to flip him over. So, not enough friction and a pack he was fighting. You lose the heavy pack fight when the bottom drops out from under you (free hanging) I just looked at the video again and it looks like he flips upside down before the first bounce off the wall. Pack weight??? There is a point in the video that you can't quite see the guy but the pack weight seems to be a factor also. Some don't realize that the added weight of the pack affects greatly how you rap. I will never forget the time I forgot to dangle my pack on the second stage of the last series of raps out of Heaps. Oh how I fought that rap all the way to the pearch. That was not a happy rap.

[ratagonia]

Since it seems that a great deal of this accident was due to a lack of friction I have some newbie questions relating to friction on a rappel device. I am somewhat new to canyoneering and most of my rappelling experience is in climbing i.e. thicker ropes and double strand rappelling.
I recently purchased a Petzel Piranha to rappel with and I really enjoy the ability to adjust friction on it but I haven't done a long rappel on it. I was wondering what friction mode it needs to be put into to be comparable to say the friction from an ATC guide (which I previously used)? If I were to do the 300' rappel that this thread is discussing would I need to put as much friction on the the pirahna as possible AND use a leg carabiner or would the piranha by itself be able to provide enough friction?
I apologize because I do realize this question is likely a bit ambiguous but I would rather ask here then get a video posted of me here falling down a 300' rappel.
As a frame of reference for the friction I would need I weigh about 155 lb.

The other big factor is what rope you are on. Not only brand and size, but also condition (new, old, fuzzy, slick) or wet/dry.

You got a cliff near where you live? While we could give you a formula for what setting to use at your weight and on X rope, it is better to understand the variety of settings and how each feels on a variety of ropes. WITH A BOTTOM BELAY from a friend.

Then, on a long rappel, the weight of the rope makes a big difference across the length of the rappel. At the top, the weight of the rope will slow you down, a LOT, and you will need to be set up 'light'. About halfway down, you will want to make an adjustment. Since there are not ledges on this particular rappel, you cannot easily use the Pirana adjustments to add more friction. I use the opposite-leg-loop biner method, but other method work too.

Which is a bit beyond the capabilities here...

Tom

[moab mark]

Tom is right going out and playing with your piranha is the best way. As far as your question. We just did Englestead on a brand new 300' imlay 9mm. I was the 6th one down. I weigh 190 lbs. Started at the top of the rappel with the rope under both hooks. With a pair of gloves on never had to change anything and went all the way to the bottom with the same setting.
If I would of needed to add a little friction. This may not be a proper technique due to being able to get my glove stuck in the device etc. But I take my left hand squeeze the rope running through the piranha then take the rope up over the small hook and then continue on. Have done it a several times seems to work pretty well.

My Son weighs around 150 lbs. He also went down under both hooks and had no problems.

These are just examples. You need to go out and practice for yourself.

My personal opinion on a rappel of this size. If the first guy downdoes not have his device dialed in. You better belay him down from the top. Once he is on the ground a monkey can go down.

I participate in an extreme adventure race in Moab every spring. They have you do a 300' rappel by Gemini Bridges. The organization has no clue what your rappeling experience is. I was talking to the head guy at the top last year about his concerns with the length. He stated if we watch you rig your device and have a fireman belay were not to concerned. They do make you wear gloves. Over a hundred go down every year. I personally know of about 15 people who that was the first rappel they ever did. They scream a little but they get to the bottom.

[Iceaxe]

Kinda bothers me when scenarios like this are tweaked with variables like, "What if you don't know how to ascend back out?" or "What if you don't know basic first aid?" Just pondering the scenario should encourage everyone to acquire these skills.

I don't see where anyone has tweaked the scenario.... the question was "what would YOU do" ......... there was no right or wrong answer....


So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

I just figure I'll be most useful in getting help....

Now if I had advanced medical skills I might make a different choice....

If I knew I was 40 pounds over weight and running a 1/2 mile would kill me I'd probably go down in the hole....

The benefit of a scenario like this is you can identify areas where improving your skills might be useful, or maybe it will help you diet so you can actually run for help.... yes, I would love to have the medical skills of a surgeon.... I would also like to fly a helicopter and build anther race car for baja.... but I have limited time, canyoneering is just one of several sports I participate in. I'm guessing very few of us on here have lives that revolve around canyoneering so we try to budget our time acquiring skills to the best of our abilities and scenarios help us....

Anyhoo.... just a few thoughts from an occasional canyoneer....

:cool2:

[rcwild]

Now if I had advanced medical skills I might make a different choice....

You can save a life with the skills you learn in an 8 hour Red Cross First Aid course.

[Iceaxe]

You can save a life with the skills you learn in an 8 hour Red Cross First Aid course.

Actually been there.... done that.... and married the paramedic....

:2thumbs:

The rest of you guys probably just got the t-shirt.

:lol8:

[Scott Card]

You can save a life with the skills you learn in an 8 hour Red Cross First Aid course.

Actually been there.... done that.... and married the paramedic....

:2thumbs:

The rest of you guys probably just got the t-shirt.

:lol8:So that is how you passed the class.... someone check his test scores :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

So that is how you passed the class.... someone check his test scores :lol8:

Now you know why I'm only allowed to dispense band-aids.... the kids always go to mom for important medical. I never get to play medic.... If we pass a wicked car wreak or something she makes me stop.... and I always get the important job like holding the flashlight....

:ne_nau:

[zoeimogen]

Since there are not ledges on this particular rappel, you cannot easily use the Pirana adjustments to add more friction. I use the opposite-leg-loop biner method, but other method work too.

Umm, I may be about to make myself look stupid, but why can't you add friction with the Pirana? Admittedly you're more limited double roping than single lining but you can just wrap the rope around on the right hand side, assuming you're right handed. (Twice around and you're basically stopped and could take your hands away without a stopper knot, not that it's a good idea, at least on the 9mm rope I've used with it - but you can't wrap round twice when double-lining)

[moab mark]

Since there are not ledges on this particular rappel, you cannot easily use the Pirana adjustments to add more friction. I use the opposite-leg-loop biner method, but other method work too.

Umm, I may be about to make myself look stupid, but why can't you add friction with the Pirana? Admittedly you're more limited double roping than single lining but you can just wrap the rope around on the right hand side, assuming you're right handed. (Twice around and you're basically stopped and could take your hands away without a stopper knot, not that it's a good idea, at least on the 9mm rope I've used with it - but you can't wrap round twice when double-lining)

Not to speak for Tom, but I think the point he is making is. On a rappel of 300 ft. where you are either free hanging or slightly touching the wall. As you get to the bottom it is pretty hard to bring yourself to a stop to add friction over one of the hooks. So you either have to rig it heavy at the top and then deal with the lack of friction at the bottom or increase your friction as you go down. If you can make it happen then yes it will work. That is one of the concepts behind all the hooks on a piranha.
When wanting to tie off on your piranha I do it a little different then you described. I wrap it once around the hooks bottom to top and then put the slack end thru the carabiner and hook it on the hook on the other side. Its bomber.
You also brought up being right handed. If you are left handed just flip the piranha around on your carabiner this gives the lefty the same
choices.

Hope that all made sense.

Mark

[zoeimogen]

Not to speak for Tom, but I think the point he is making is. On a rappel of 300 ft. where you are either free hanging or slightly touching the wall. As you get to the bottom it is pretty hard to bring yourself to a stop to add friction over one of the hooks. So you either have to rig it heavy at the top and then deal with the lack of friction at the bottom or increase your friction as you go down. If you can make it happen then yes it will work.

OK, so I guess the point is that with a Z-rig or similar, if you're using wiregates then you can basically just shove the rope through the gate and it'll slow you even if the rope is still moving.


When wanting to tie off on your piranha I do it a little different then you described. I wrap it once around the hooks bottom to top and then put the slack end thru the carabiner and hook it on the hook on the other side. Its bomber.

Oh, I tie off as it shows in the manual, with a knot - I woudln't actually take my hands off just having wrapped around twice. It's enough friction to keep you steady but could still slip off.


You also brought up being right handed. If you are left handed just flip the piranha around on your carabiner this gives the lefty the same choices.

Yes, wasn't sure how I should indicate the, uh, spikey side as opposed to the offside you're not braking with :-)

[ratagonia]

Since there are not ledges on this particular rappel, you cannot easily use the Pirana adjustments to add more friction. I use the opposite-leg-loop biner method, but other method work too.

Umm, I may be about to make myself look stupid, but why can't you add friction with the Pirana? Admittedly you're more limited double roping than single lining but you can just wrap the rope around on the right hand side, assuming you're right handed. (Twice around and you're basically stopped and could take your hands away without a stopper knot, not that it's a good idea, at least on the 9mm rope I've used with it - but you can't wrap round twice when double-lining)

I am not fond of the ways to adjust the Pirana friction in combat. Going for the upper hook, you pass briefly through a lower-friction position before getting there - not so good when things are on the edge of control. The positions you can get to without going through the soft spot are TOO much friction.

Tom :moses: