Kill Rattlesnakes

[Lizzard]

I don't see the need, is this what you do?



We did Orderville yesterday, came across a 4' rattlesnake, a little ways down from the first large chokestone. The snake was right in the middle of the watercourse. There were several people that were behind us, decided to kill it for the safety of others.

[Randi]

I don't see the need, is this what you do?



We did Orderville yesterday, came across a 4' rattlesnake, a little ways down from the first large chokestone. The snake was right in the middle of the watercourse. There were several people that were behind us, decided to kill it for the safety of others.


What the heck?!
NOOOOO! This is NOT the right thing to do!
If these people were right behind you, couldn't you (I'm addressing the snake killer here) have simply warned them that a snake was coming up?

I think it's ridiculous to just kill creatures for no reason. And a snake being "in" your way is NOT a legitimate reason to kill it!

~Randi

[ratagonia]

I don't see the need, is this what you do?



We did Orderville yesterday, came across a 4' rattlesnake, a little ways down from the first large chokestone. The snake was right in the middle of the watercourse. There were several people that were behind us, decided to kill it for the safety of others.


What the heck?!
NOOOOO! This is NOT the right thing to do!
If these people were right behind you, couldn't you (I'm addressing the snake killer here) have simply warned them that a snake was coming up?

I think it's ridiculous to just kill creatures for no reason. And a snake being "in" your way is NOT a legitimate reason to kill it!

~Randi

What she said. T :moses:

[Kent K25]

All it takes is a stick and a nudge and that Rattler is out of the way.

[sarahlizzy]

I don't see the need, is this what you do?



We did Orderville yesterday, came across a 4' rattlesnake, a little ways down from the first large chokestone. The snake was right in the middle of the watercourse. There were several people that were behind us, decided to kill it for the safety of others.


The number of nasty human diseases spread by rattlesnakes is very close to zero.

The number of nasty human diseases spread by rats is quite high.

Rattlesnakes eat rats. Please don't kill them.

Sarah, who has 6 pet snakes.

[theking648]

The number of nasty human diseases spread by rattlesnakes is very close to zero.

The number of nasty human diseases spread by rats is quite high.

Rattlesnakes eat rats. Please don't kill them.

Sarah, who has 6 pet snakes.

I see your point, but I think they killed it because it was poisonous.


All it takes is a stick and a nudge and that Rattler is out of the way.

I agree with snake lover. I would probably sit and wait or move them out of the way. I see Kent as scary and dangerous but you don't see me killing him do you. :lol8:

[sarahlizzy]

The number of nasty human diseases spread by rattlesnakes is very close to zero.

The number of nasty human diseases spread by rats is quite high.

Rattlesnakes eat rats. Please don't kill them.

Sarah, who has 6 pet snakes.

I see your point, but I think they killed it because it was poisonous.


I'd also add that killing it probably puts someone at far more risk of envenomation than leaving it alone. If the ethics of leaving no trace, respecting the environment, and letting a useful pest controller live doesn't convince, perhaps self-interest will. A rattlesnake is highly unlikely to bite a human unless provoked. Trying to kill it is ... kinda provocative.

[Iceaxe]

I saw a bear in Orderville once.... true story.... we didn't kill it, it didn't kill us or anyone else.... everyone lived happily ever after....

:cool2:

[theking648]

The number of nasty human diseases spread by rattlesnakes is very close to zero.

The number of nasty human diseases spread by rats is quite high.

Rattlesnakes eat rats. Please don't kill them.

Sarah, who has 6 pet snakes.

I see your point, but I think they killed it because it was poisonous.


I'd also add that killing it probably puts someone at far more risk of envenomation than leaving it alone. If the ethics of leaving no trace, respecting the environment, and letting a useful pest controller live doesn't convince, perhaps self-interest will. A rattlesnake is highly unlikely to bite a human unless provoked. Trying to kill it is ... kinda provocative.

I agree, he increased his chances of getting bit by trying to kill it.

if your going to kill it you better eat it.. on that note does anyone know what snake tastes like?

[Don]

Had to check:

Snakes are classified as non-game animals and are protected by Utah state laws. A person cannot collect or possess a live wild snake without receiving a Certificate of Registration from the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources. With human or domestic pet and livestock safety concerns,
a venomous snake may be killed without a certificate.

It went on the say:

More than half of the reported snake bites were a result of someone trying to handle or kill the snake. It is always best to leave any areas
where you encounter a venomous snake. This will greatly reduce your risk of being bitten.


Found here (http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/NR_WD_008.pdf).

Just something to consider.

[Iceaxe]

if your going to kill it you better eat it.. on that note does anyone know what snake tastes like?

Rattlesnake tastes pretty good.... or maybe it's just the chief as everything I have ever tasted that Ron cooked was outstanding. If you want to try just about anything just call ahead and he'll probably cook it for you.

Buffalo Bistro
http://www.visiteastzion.info/buffalobistro.html

305 N Main St
Glendale, UT 84729

He also has a well stocked beer cooler.....
:slobber:

[ratagonia]

I don't see the need, is this what you do?



We did Orderville yesterday, came across a 4' rattlesnake, a little ways down from the first large chokestone. The snake was right in the middle of the watercourse. There were several people that were behind us, decided to kill it for the safety of others.


Now that we've had fun with this, perhaps, on a more serious note...

Rattlesnakes make a BIG EFFORT to not bite you. They rattle, when you are (generally) well out of range. They have figured out that you are too big to eat, and they just want to let you know that you should stay away from them.

So, WTF? Does rread REALLY BELIEVE the snake was dangerous and had to be killed for the safety of unknown people behind? I doubt it. But:

1. If true, RRead should stay in the city, because the woods are filled with dangerous things like rocks, trees, snakes, bears, mud, bees, other hikers...

2. If not true, then RRead is a cretin (dipshit having already been reserved for a different problem); please stay in the city. Also, killing animals is often the first sign of a certain derangement that really should be taken care of before RRead starts hurting people.

We VISIT the wildlands; don't kill the creatures that live there. It is impolite. Snakes can easily be moved aside with a stick. Or hang out a few minutes and let the other group know the snake is there and they should walk around. Even if the place was too narrow to walk around, you can harass it to a place where the snake will no longer block the canyon.

Etc. WTF?? who were the fellow cretins on this trip that allowed RRead to perpetrate this mischief? RRead deserves to be spanked, and to sit in the corner for a couplea days...

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

I'm willing to wager that Don will not take Blueeyes rappeling without a helmet again and nobody will ever discuss killing snakes or mosquitos while canyoneering. :roflol:
I promise the picture of the snake I posted in Das Boots was dead before I got there. But Bo was there the day before me.......


Mark

[oldno7]

I happen to know rread quite well. He is an exceptional person and a great partner to do canyons with. Judging someone for doing something that is legal, but contrary to your morals, might not be overly beneficial.
But go ahead and bash away, he'll still stop in any canyon and give you the shirt off his back regardless. Someone I'm proud to call a friend.

[stefan]

Judging someone for doing something that is legal, but contrary to your morals,

is it legal to kill snakes in zion national park?

[oldno7]

Judging someone for doing something that is legal, but contrary to your morals,

is it legal to kill snakes in zion national park?

apparently he wasn't in the park, Orderville is not entirely in the park. If you come down here sometime I can show you the exact point in Orderville that it becomes ZNP.

[moab mark]

I was not there so I have no idea what happened. But I would imagine you are allowed to kill anything if you fieel you are in danger of harm. :ne_nau:

Mark

[oldno7]

I was not there so I have no idea what happened. But I would imagine you are allowed to kill anything if you fieel you are in danger of harm. :ne_nau:

Mark

And theres nobody here that can give that answer.

But it sure is fun to speculate and bash someone you don't know.

[ratagonia]

I happen to know rread quite well. He is an exceptional person and a great partner to do canyons with. Judging someone for doing something that is legal, but contrary to your morals, might not be overly beneficial.
But go ahead and bash away, he'll still stop in any canyon and give you the shirt off his back regardless. Someone I'm proud to call a friend.

Good. Then YOU, old no seven, as a newly-carded member of the TJ Fan Club and Auxilary Helmet and Wildlife Protection Police, could go give RRead a nice a-talkin' to, and find out why he is killing non-threatening wildlife (or why he feels threatened by a lil' ol' snake) and perhaps suggest, in a nice way, that perhaps he should not do this again.

Mentioning that he is subject to the WRATH OF TOM might do it for em...

I expect a report on my desk in the morning...

Tom :moses:

[ilanimaka]

COULD rread have done things differently? Sure. Would I have done things differently? Only to the extent that after killing the threatening rattlesnake I would have turned it into my next meal. :twisted: :2thumbs:

To be honest, I'd say that more people would have killed it than would admit it. Also, we don't know the circumstances under which it was killed. Did the following group have children? If so, then I applaud him for dispatching the snake and would hope he buried the head. But then again, if some of the folks here would have just used a stick to fling, chase, herd, or otherwise remove the snake to a distant location, then feel free to continue bashing somebody for making a judgment call. Since this is all online, there's certainly no way that what you post could come back and bite you in the @ss, right? :roll:

[sarahlizzy]

It went on the say:

More than half of the reported snake bites were a result of someone trying to handle or kill the snake. It is always best to leave any areas
where you encounter a venomous snake. This will greatly reduce your risk of being bitten.


Found here (http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/NR_WD_008.pdf).

Just something to consider.

I recall reading that most of the small number of annual deaths from snakebite in north America occur when the victim is a male, either in his late teens or early twenties. The bite would generally be to the arms or upper torso (go figure), and in many cases the death occurred because the victim did not seek medical attention.

In other words, those who get bitten are generally the ones who try to pick the snake up, or interfere with it in some way (otherwise bites would generally be expected to the legs), and of those, the ones who die are those who think they're sufficiently "tough" to not need antivenom.

A bite from a small rattlesnake like this would generally be unlikely to kill a healthy adult human anyway, even without medical attention, and even if it did, it would be hours before the victim was incapacitated. I guess what I'm saying is that a) falling awkwardly and breaking your leg is more likely in a canyon than being bitten by a rattlesnake, and b) the broken leg is probably far more likely to kill you.

Attacking them is also potentially quite a risky activity - they can strike really rather quickly (back to the bites on the arms or upper torso again).

If the snake is on dry land, it can be avoided by walking past it, making sure you stay more than its body length away from the head. While the snake will be a faster climber and swimmer than you are, on terrain where you can walk it stands absolutely no chance of catching you, should it give chase, which it won't, because they're generally terrified of humans (for good reason - too many of us kill them on sight), and just want to be left alone.

Yes, a bite from one will ruin your day to a greater extent than a bite from most small animals, but if you leave it alone, it won't bite you.

Sarah, who speaks from the experience of having been bitten by (non-venomous) snakes more times than she cares to remember.

[oldno7]

No problem Tom

This guy donates his time to take youth groups(scout's) into canyons. I've been with him on several of these occasions and I can tell you he is respected by these youth. He teaches a mean canyon ethic. By the way, he has the ability to rescue the unsuspecting from a double rope situation gone bad.

This may or may not have been the case but if he had a boy pinned in an alcove with a snake at the exit is he still a bad guy? So easy to bash the un defended.(he doesn't come here) just sayin'.

By the way---who said it was un-threatening wildlife, could one have only surmised, and not known fact's?
If rread thought the snake needed killing, I'd been glad to help him.

Report coming....

[ratagonia]

COULD rread have done things differently? Sure. Would I have done things differently? Only to the extent that after killing the threatening rattlesnake I would have turned it into my next meal. :twisted: :2thumbs:

To be honest, I'd say that more people would have killed it than would admit it. Also, we don't know the circumstances under which it was killed. Did the following group have children? If so, then I applaud him for dispatching the snake and would hope he buried the head. But then again, if some of the folks here would have just used a stick to fling, chase, herd, or otherwise remove the snake to a distant location, then feel free to continue bashing somebody for making a judgment call. Since this is all online, there's certainly no way that what you post could come back and bite you in the @ss, right? :roll:

In all seriousness, are you kidding or not?

If the snake was in my (or your, or his) back yard - sure, dispatch it with alacrity. But out in the woods?

Tell me - all y'alls just tweaking me, right? Y'all don't think killing non-threatening wildlife is.... fun? Y'all don't think rattlesnakes are dangerous, do ya? In this day and age? Seriously???

Tom (alienating people since 1999) :moses:

[Bo_Beck]

I'm willing to wager that Don will not take Blueeyes rappeling without a helmet again and nobody will ever discuss killing snakes or mosquitos while canyoneering. :roflol:
I promise the picture of the snake I posted in Das Boots was dead before I got there. But Bo was there the day before me.......


Mark

I thought I was there a few days after you? I went last wednesday. The King Snake startled me for a moment, but that is all. I knew that he was either pretty damned cold or dead anyway. I figure the poor guy was just trying to get out of the pothole and had deceased at the top of the log. I too have run across rattlers in canyons (cougars, scorpions, ringtail cats, and a menagerie of other wildlife.) and have generally always tried to leave them their space. I have to admit though.....18 years ago we killed a rattlesnake after it bit one of the boys we were hiking the Subway with. We took the rattler to the hospital for proper identification and antivenom matchup. The boy stepped over a log in the trees on the descent to Russel Gulch, fell forward and the rattler bit him on the knuckle. No problems. Everyone else had stepped over the rattler without even noticing it! Oh well....sorry to have had killed it anyway, but at the time it seemed to be the appropriate thing to do????!!

[ilanimaka]

Hate to correct you Sarah (well ok... maybe hate is a strong word... :haha: ) but...


Rattlesnakes are born with fully functioning fangs capable of injecting venom and can regulate the amount of venom they inject when biting. Generally they deliver a full dose of venom to their prey, but may deliver less venom or none at all when biting defensively. A frightened or injured snake may not exercise such control. Young snakes are to be considered more dangerous, as they have less control over the amount of venom they inject.[1] A young rattlesnake will often simply inject all its venom, which might be a lethal dose, depending on the bitten animal.

Most species of rattlesnakes have hemotoxic venom, destroying tissue, degenerating organs and causing coagulopathy (disrupted blood clotting). Some degree of permanent scarring is very likely in the event of a venomous bite, even with prompt, effective treatment, and a severe envenomation, combined with delayed or ineffective treatment, can lead to the loss of a limb or death. Thus, a rattlesnake bite is always a potentially fatal injury. Untreated rattlesnake bites, especially from larger species, are very often fatal. However, antivenom, when applied in time, reduces the death rate to less than 4%. Around 8,000 people are bitten by venomous snakes in the United States each year.

So the young tend to be more dangerous because of the sheer amount of toxin injected. I also found another fact site that talked about the toxin in the young to be made up of more neurotoxin than hemotoxin, making the toxin even more dangerous, but I can't seem to find it now.

Also found on Wikipedia:


Crotalus atrox (Western Diamondback) is a venomous pitviper species found in the United States and Mexico. It is likely responsible for the majority of snakebite fatalities in northern Mexico and the second greatest number in the USA after C. adamanteus (Eastern Diamondback).


In all seriousness, are you kidding or not?

If the snake was in my (or your, or his) back yard - sure, dispatch it with alacrity. But out in the woods?

Tell me - all y'alls just tweaking me, right? Y'all don't think killing non-threatening wildlife is.... fun? Y'all don't think rattlesnakes are dangerous, do ya? In this day and age? Seriously???

Though I DO enjoy a good ribbing, I'm just saying that unless you knew the circumstances behind his reasoning, I'd prefer to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I would jump at the opportunity to kill a rattler, but that's more because I want to eat it rather than the possibility of being bitten. If it's in the backyard, I agree. It's going down. Out in the woods by my lonesome? Depends on if I feel like going through the trouble of getting the meat. If I'm not up to it, then I'll move it. But... If there's a group coming along behind me that gave me a reason to think they would put themselves in danger, whether knowingly or unknowingly, from the rattler, then you can bet your hind end I'm killin the sucker, whether I want to eat it or not.

All I'm saying is that you can't just assume that his reasoning was flawed. Would it kill ya to give some guy that you don't know, and somebody else vouches for, the benefit of the doubt? :ne_nau:

Jacob, who speaks from experience of being bitten by numerous species of snakes many, many times over the last 25 years. (Ok... that was a rather troll thing to say but I'm feelin ornery today. :ne_nau: )

[ratagonia]

Hate to correct you Sarah (well ok... maybe hate is a strong word... :haha: ) but...


Rattlesnakes are born with fully functioning fangs capable of injecting venom and can regulate the amount of venom they inject when biting. Generally they deliver a full dose of venom to their prey, but may deliver less venom or none at all when biting defensively. A frightened or injured snake may not exercise such control. Young snakes are to be considered more dangerous, as they have less control over the amount of venom they inject.[1] A young rattlesnake will often simply inject all its venom, which might be a lethal dose, depending on the bitten animal.

Most species of rattlesnakes have hemotoxic venom, destroying tissue, degenerating organs and causing coagulopathy (disrupted blood clotting). Some degree of permanent scarring is very likely in the event of a venomous bite, even with prompt, effective treatment, and a severe envenomation, combined with delayed or ineffective treatment, can lead to the loss of a limb or death. Thus, a rattlesnake bite is always a potentially fatal injury. Untreated rattlesnake bites, especially from larger species, are very often fatal. However, antivenom, when applied in time, reduces the death rate to less than 4%. Around 8,000 people are bitten by venomous snakes in the United States each year.

So the young tend to be more dangerous because of the sheer amount of toxin injected. I also found another fact site that talked about the toxin in the young to be made up of more neurotoxin than hemotoxin, making the toxin even more dangerous, but I can't seem to find it now.

Also found on Wikipedia:


Crotalus atrox (Western Diamondback) is a venomous pitviper species found in the United States and Mexico. It is likely responsible for the majority of snakebite fatalities in northern Mexico and the second greatest number in the USA after C. adamanteus (Eastern Diamondback).

While true that IF the snake bites you it will hurt, and in some cases can be life-threatening. Juvenile snakes mixed with small kids, in particular.

But getting bit by the snake involves either: A. stumbling upon the snake (which once the snake is noticed and seen can be avoided) or B. attempting to handle the snake (usually associated with young men). In other words, once they have discovered the snake, it no longer has the potential to be dangerous. Therefore, killing it is counter-indicated, and does not improve the safety of the group. Thus, cretinous.

"Cretinous" is, of course, a moral judgement, which involves a viewpoint. Since "I" say it, from my viewpoint, it is cretinous. Perhaps the situation required it, and my moral outrage is a result of lack of imagination on my part. I cannot imagine a situation that fits the description in which killing the snake is morally justified. Thus Cretinous.

I have no problem with you reaching a different conclusion. Perhaps you think killing wildlife is fun!!! If so, I would like to know this, so I can exclude you from invitations to trips that I lead, or request that you stay in the city, and don't visit Zion National Park. And if you do, don't pack heat, OK?

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

Hate to correct you Sarah (well ok... maybe hate is a strong word... :haha: ) but...


Rattlesnakes are born with fully functioning fangs capable of injecting venom and can regulate the amount of venom they inject when biting. Generally they deliver a full dose of venom to their prey, but may deliver less venom or none at all when biting defensively. A frightened or injured snake may not exercise such control. Young snakes are to be considered more dangerous, as they have less control over the amount of venom they inject.[1] A young rattlesnake will often simply inject all its venom, which might be a lethal dose, depending on the bitten animal.

Most species of rattlesnakes have hemotoxic venom, destroying tissue, degenerating organs and causing coagulopathy (disrupted blood clotting). Some degree of permanent scarring is very likely in the event of a venomous bite, even with prompt, effective treatment, and a severe envenomation, combined with delayed or ineffective treatment, can lead to the loss of a limb or death. Thus, a rattlesnake bite is always a potentially fatal injury. Untreated rattlesnake bites, especially from larger species, are very often fatal. However, antivenom, when applied in time, reduces the death rate to less than 4%. Around 8,000 people are bitten by venomous snakes in the United States each year.

So the young tend to be more dangerous because of the sheer amount of toxin injected. I also found another fact site that talked about the toxin in the young to be made up of more neurotoxin than hemotoxin, making the toxin even more dangerous, but I can't seem to find it now.

Also found on Wikipedia:


Crotalus atrox (Western Diamondback) is a venomous pitviper species found in the United States and Mexico. It is likely responsible for the majority of snakebite fatalities in northern Mexico and the second greatest number in the USA after C. adamanteus (Eastern Diamondback).

Not sure where you're "correcting" me? A bite from a venomous snake is not the same as a fatality. As for youngsters injecting all their venom, a) at four feet (and people tend to underestimate the lengths of snakes when they see them) the snake was unlikely to be a youngster (if it was, I expect giving birth to it seriously spoiled its mother's day), and b) I'd suggest that "depending on the bitten animal" is a very pertinent part of your quote. If you encounter a rattlesnake whist descending Orderville and you happen to be a squirrel, you may want to worry.

While we're quoting wikipedia, I'll direct attention to this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_victims_of_fatal_snake_bites_in_the_United _States_by_decade

...which states that the annual death toll from snake envenomation in the US each year is between 7-10 people. Note that in the 1980s, there was precisely one reported death from snakebite in Utah that decade.

I will wager that the number of fatalities from bee stings in the same time period was higher. Nobody worries about being pinned in an alcove by a bumblebee, however.

It also states that most of those bites are from copperheads - a snake which is popular amongst snake keepers as a "starter venomous snake" because its bite is generally regarded as insignificant. They are, indeed, probably less toxic than our only native viper here in the UK, Vipera berus, or the adder, for which the usual medical treatment is a hayfever tablet (seriously).

[oldno7]

Tom
Did I ever tell you the story about back in "62" I walked 14 miles across cryptobiotic soil, with snowshoes(as to cause more damage) to dispatch a den of marauding rattlesnakes? I was on my way to bolt some canyons in the roost, just before the christening party for Glen Canyon dam. NO?? Man those were the days. Ahh the livestock was thick and the smell of freshly excavated uranium hung in the air

Ah the stories................... :nod:

I forgot,-- I'm compelled to mention back then all hiking/walking was done uphill. Going downhill was only allowed on holidays and special Sunday services.

[ilanimaka]

While true that IF the snake bites you it will hurt, and in some cases can be life-threatening. Juvenile snakes mixed with small kids, in particular.

But getting bit by the snake involves either: A. stumbling upon the snake (which once the snake is noticed and seen can be avoided) or B. attempting to handle the snake (usually associated with young men). In other words, once they have discovered the snake, it no longer has the potential to be dangerous. Therefore, killing it is counter-indicated, and does not improve the safety of the group. Thus, cretinous.

"Cretinous" is, of course, a moral judgement, which involves a viewpoint. Since "I" say it, from my viewpoint, it is cretinous. Perhaps the situation required it, and my moral outrage is a result of lack of imagination on my part. I cannot imagine a situation that fits the description in which killing the snake is morally justified. Thus Cretinous.

I have no problem with you reaching a different conclusion. Perhaps you think killing wildlife is fun!!! If so, I would like to know this, so I can exclude you from invitations to trips that I lead, or request that you stay in the city, and don't visit Zion National Park. And if you do, don't pack heat, OK?

Tom

:haha: Been a while since I've been involved in a spat like this. I am not one to kill wildlife for fun, though I must admit I do enjoy hunting jackrabbits in large quantities (and yes, I eat those too) but that's a whole other conversation. If you don't want to invite me on one of your trips, I can't say I'd be offended or upset. Most folks think I'm a pretty swell guy with the exception of my ex-wife and her flavor-of-the-month.

BTW - I edited my previous response to speak directly to you, in case you missed it. :2thumbs: :popcorn:

And Sarah, I just reread your post I thought I was correcting. I thought you had said that young rattlesnakes were less of a danger, but I see now that I misread your statement about the "small rattlesnake like this," in regards to the 4' rattlesnake originally being spoken of. I can admit when I'm in the wrong... not that I will, but I'm perfectly capable of it. :haha:

In any case, the search for facts to throw out here was fun as was reading the responses. :popcorn: :2thumbs:

[sarahlizzy]

Tom
Did I ever tell you the story about back in "62" I walked 14 miles across cryptobiotic soil, with snowshoes(as to cause more damage) to dispatch a den of marauding rattlesnakes?

Were they equipped with frickin' laser beams?

[sarahlizzy]

And Sarah, I just reread your post I thought I was correcting. I thought you had said that young rattlesnakes were less of a danger, but I see now that I misread your statement about the "small rattlesnake like this," in regards to the 4' rattlesnake originally being spoken of. I can admit when I'm in the wrong... not that I will, but I'm perfectly capable of it. :haha:

Ah, OK. :haha:

Anyway, past my bedtime. I've just given my snakes fresh water, and they asked that y'all be nice to their brothers and sisters...

Also, for those minded to kill any snakes they encounter, I'll depart with a little fact that may cause you something of a dilemma - one of the things that a kingsnake most likes to eat is ... rattlesnake. :eek2:

[nat]

Hate to correct you Sarah (well ok... maybe hate is a strong word... :haha: ) but...


Rattlesnakes are born with fully functioning fangs capable of injecting venom and can regulate the amount of venom they inject when biting. Generally they deliver a full dose of venom to their prey, but may deliver less venom or none at all when biting defensively. A frightened or injured snake may not exercise such control. Young snakes are to be considered more dangerous, as they have less control over the amount of venom they inject.[1] A young rattlesnake will often simply inject all its venom, which might be a lethal dose, depending on the bitten animal.

Most species of rattlesnakes have hemotoxic venom, destroying tissue, degenerating organs and causing coagulopathy (disrupted blood clotting). Some degree of permanent scarring is very likely in the event of a venomous bite, even with prompt, effective treatment, and a severe envenomation, combined with delayed or ineffective treatment, can lead to the loss of a limb or death. Thus, a rattlesnake bite is always a potentially fatal injury. Untreated rattlesnake bites, especially from larger species, are very often fatal. However, antivenom, when applied in time, reduces the death rate to less than 4%. Around 8,000 people are bitten by venomous snakes in the United States each year.

So the young tend to be more dangerous because of the sheer amount of toxin injected. I also found another fact site that talked about the toxin in the young to be made up of more neurotoxin than hemotoxin, making the toxin even more dangerous, but I can't seem to find it now.



This goes to show how how Wikipidia can be full of shit. If 8,000 people are bitten by venomous snakes a year, probably at least half of those are by rattlesnakes, as they are by far the most widespread and numerous venomous snakes in the country (there are many different species). So, suppose 4,000 are bit by rattlesnakes per year. Now, given that are about 10 (or less) snakebite fatalities a year in the US, that makes at most 10 out of 4,000 or 0.25% fatality rate.

As far as juvenile rattlesnakes go, I've read that sometimes their venom is more toxic, but they inject much less venom (they are much smaller and have less venom to inject).

There is really no problem with rattlesnakes if left alone. I believe they are protected by Utah state law. Once with Tom we rescued 2 rattlesnakes from a pothole in a slot in the Escalante (see Latest Rave around July 2005).

Nat

[Felicia]

What do you do if you are bitten by a rattle snake?

I was thinking about this the other day when I was out on a walk on a trail that had a posted rattle snake warning.

[ratagonia]

Hate to correct you Sarah (well ok... maybe hate is a strong word... :haha: ) but...
...
So the young tend to be more dangerous because of the sheer amount of toxin injected. I also found another fact site that talked about the toxin in the young to be made up of more neurotoxin than hemotoxin, making the toxin even more dangerous, but I can't seem to find it now.



This goes to show how how Wikipidia can be full of shit. If 8,000 people are bitten by venomous snakes a year, probably at least half of those are by rattlesnakes, as they are by far the most widespread and numerous venomous snakes in the country (there are many different species). So, suppose 4,000 are bit by rattlesnakes per year. Now, given that are about 10 (or less) snakebite fatalities a year in the US, that makes at most 10 out of 4,000 or 0.25% fatality rate.

As far as juvenile rattlesnakes go, I've read that sometimes their venom is more toxic, but they inject much less venom (they are much smaller and have less venom to inject).


Nat

So, the wiki is full of poop because the statistics it cites do not line up with your prejudices??

Best when reading the wiki to view the source, which says:

[quote=wikisourcematerial]Venomous snakes found in the United States include rattlesnakes, copperheads, cottonmouths/water moccasins, and coral snakes. They can be dangerous to outdoor workers including farmers, foresters, landscapers, groundskeepers, gardeners, painters, roofers, pavers, construction workers, laborers, mechanics, and any other workers who spend time outside. Although rare, some workers with a severe allergy to snake venom may be at risk of death if bitten. It has been estimated that 7,000

[moab mark]

This is from the division of wildlife site.

(2) All species and subspecies of reptiles not listed in Subsection
(1) are classified as noncontrolled for collection, importation and
possession, except as provided in Subsection (5).
(3) A person may not:
(a) knowingly disturb the den of any reptile or kill, capture, or
harass any reptile within 100 yards of a reptile den without first
obtaining a certificate of registration from the Division; or
(b) indiscriminately kill any reptile.
(4)(a) Western rattlesnakes, Crotalus viridis, may be killed without
a certificate of registration only for reasons of human safety.


Mark

[mmac]

This is from the division of wildlife site.

(2) All species and subspecies of reptiles not listed in Subsection
(1) are classified as noncontrolled for collection, importation and
possession, except as provided in Subsection (5).
(3) A person may not:
(a) knowingly disturb the den of any reptile or kill, capture, or
harass any reptile within 100 yards of a reptile den without first
obtaining a certificate of registration from the Division; or
(b) indiscriminately kill any reptile.
(4)(a) Western rattlesnakes, Crotalus viridis, may be killed without
a certificate of registration only for reasons of human safety.


Mark

There are 7 species of rattlesnakes in Utah, that provision states only that Croatalus viridis (common or western rattlesnake) can be killed if people are in danger, which as this thread demonstrates, is debatable... What about the other 6 species? Can everyone correctly identify them in the field?

[moab mark]

It was the only spot on their whole site that I could find anything about killing snakes?

[theking648]

What do you do if you are bitten by a rattle snake?

I was thinking about this the other day when I was out on a walk on a trail that had a posted rattle snake warning.

it's been a while since I review this but I think the first is to get rid of constricting clothing.. so loosen boots take watch off and rings.

it's best to keep from moving to much and keep your heart rate down so it slows the spread of posion. then get to a hospital as soon as possible

a quick google search will tell you more i'm sure.

[Felicia]

What do you do if you are bitten by a rattle snake?

I was thinking about this the other day when I was out on a walk on a trail that had a posted rattle snake warning.

:mrgreen:

I found the answer to my question:

http://www.calpoison.com/public/snakebite.html

The list of Don'ts has gotten long.

[Brian in SLC]

Western rattlesnakes, Crotalus viridis, may be killed without a certificate of registration only for reasons of human safety.


From this spring, by Delta Utah...

http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/1778.jpg

Took me quite by surprise. Was hiking down a fairly steep slope, covered with boulders. Darn near stepped on them. They were sunning on the downhill side of that rock and I couldn't have seen them from above. And, yeah, I shrieked like a little girl.

I guess if they woulda backed me into a corner...

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

What do you do if you are bitten by a rattle snake?

I was thinking about this the other day when I was out on a walk on a trail that had a posted rattle snake warning.

:mrgreen:

I found the answer to my question:

http://www.calpoison.com/public/snakebite.html

The list of Don'ts has gotten long.

[quote=calpoison]
If you are going to be in the wilderness, it is a good idea to carry a Sawyer Extractor

[Felicia]

hmmm, suspicious. Wilderness Medical Associates, the top WFR/WMA teaching program in the country, teaches that there is no evidence that the Sawyer Extractor does any good at all. Calm, as speedy as possible transport is the indicated 'first aid'.

Tom :moses:

I agree...I no longer carry an extractor.

I have been seeing 2 or 3 snakes a week while hiking - it is snake season in our area. None of the snakes have rattled, none have coiled and all have let us pass by moving slowly off the trail.

I see no reason to kill a snake.

[Kent K25]

All it takes is a stick and a nudge and that Rattler is out of the way.


I agree with snake lover. I would probably sit and wait or move them out of the way. I see Kent as scary and dangerous but you don't see me killing him do you. :lol8:

Haha, how did I miss this one. I'm guilty, definitely a snake lover. You know you only keep me around in case you come across a Rattler Dave.

My niece (3 years old) came across a Rattler several years ago at family vacation (lake camping/boating). None of my nieces and nephews are afraid of snakes since I used to have several, but I taught them that anytime they see one in the wild to tell an adult and not try to handle it. Luckily that message got through.

It was right in our campsite so I grabbed a couple sticks and relocated it. Don't mind the bleached blond hair, I try to do something weird with my hair every family vacation. Don't mind the undies either, I'm a skinny dude and that swimsuit was too big :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/QuenteK25/Vacation%20Critters/KentRattler3.jpg

[Kent K25]

What do you do if you are bitten by a rattle snake?

I was thinking about this the other day when I was out on a walk on a trail that had a posted rattle snake warning.

:mrgreen:

I found the answer to my question:

http://www.calpoison.com/public/snakebite.html

The list of Don'ts has gotten long.

That link contains one of my major snake info pet peeves....referring to a snake as "poisonous"....they are venomous. I know I'm being picky and it honestly doesn't matter at all in this thread. Just putting it out there :)

Venomous, as stated above, refers to animals that deliver (often, inject) venom into their prey when hunting or as a defense mechanism.

Poisonous, on the other hand, describes plants or animals that are harmful when consumed or touched

[sarahlizzy]

hmmm, suspicious. Wilderness Medical Associates, the top WFR/WMA teaching program in the country, teaches that there is no evidence that the Sawyer Extractor does any good at all. Calm, as speedy as possible transport is the indicated 'first aid'.


Received wisdom amongst herpetologists is that these "extractor kits" are snake oil (if you'll excuse the pun) and may do more harm than good by disturbing the wound and spreading the venom faster.

As Tom says, the key is to stay calm, keep your heart rate down, and get medical attention ASAP. It's not like in the movies where the ZOMG DEADLY SNAKES kill in seconds (there are snakes than can kill you in seconds - most, if not all of them are nonvenomous) - it could take a day or more to die from the bite of a rattlesnake, so you generally have plenty of time.

[sarahlizzy]

That link contains one of my major snake info pet peeves....referring to a snake as "poisonous"....they are venomous. I know I'm being picky and it honestly doesn't matter at all in this thread. Just putting it out there :)

Venomous, as stated above, refers to animals that deliver (often, inject) venom into their prey when hunting or as a defense mechanism.

Poisonous, on the other hand, describes plants or animals that are harmful when consumed or touched

That's one of my pet peeves too. No snakes are poisonous, as long as you cook them properly.

[sarahlizzy]

These stats come from the medical journals, so have to be viewed with suspicion. I bet more than half of those are by non-venomous snakes. but that's just pulling suspicions out of a dark and decrepit orifice...


Wouldn't surprise me. You have lots of species of nonvenomous snakes, as well as so-called "rear fanged" snakes in the US. Many of these are often mistaken for venomous species, especially the Hognoses, which are "rear fanged", which makes them technically venomous, but with a bite that has effects similar in style and severity to those of a biting insect. I used to have one (he died of old age last year), and have been bitten and "envenomated" by him several times while handling him. The skin around the area of the bite would go red and itch for a few hours.

Hognose snakes bear a superficial resemblance to rattlesnakes, and are frequently mistaken for them. Because they are small and defenceless, they tend to respond to perceived threats with theatrics, flattening their neck like a cobra, hissing loudly and striking repeatedly in the direction of the threat. This is a harmless attempt to intimidate, and the snake has nothing to back up its empty threats with. Sadly, with humans this tactic tends to be counter-productive, because the snake often succeeds in its aim of convincing the human that it's dangerous, and so the human kills it. :(

Another common error is to mistake the completely harmless milk snake for the moderately venomous coral snake, which is a member of the elapidae (cobra) family (but nowhere near as dangerous as any actual cobra - deaths from coral snake bites are extremely rare).

[ilanimaka]

Sadly, with humans this tactic tends to be counter-productive, because the snake often succeeds in its aim of convincing the human that it's dangerous, and so the human kills it. :(

Humans are illogical.

http://media.comicmix.com/media/2009/05/11/smiley-enterprise.jpg


Another common error is to mistake the completely harmless milk snake for the moderately venomous coral snake, which is a member of the elapidae (cobra) family (but nowhere near as dangerous as any actual cobra - deaths from coral snake bites are extremely rare).

I always learned the adage, "Red on black, better stay back. Red on yellow, leave the fellow." :2thumbs:

[Randi]

hmmm, suspicious. Wilderness Medical Associates, the top WFR/WMA teaching program in the country, teaches that there is no evidence that the Sawyer Extractor does any good at all. Calm, as speedy as possible transport is the indicated 'first aid'.


Received wisdom amongst herpetologists is that these "extractor kits" are snake oil (if you'll excuse the pun) and may do more harm than good by disturbing the wound and spreading the venom faster.

As Tom says, the key is to stay calm, keep your heart rate down, and get medical attention ASAP. It's not like in the movies where the ZOMG DEADLY SNAKES kill in seconds (there are snakes than can kill you in seconds - most, if not all of them are nonvenomous) - it could take a day or more to die from the bite of a rattlesnake, so you generally have plenty of time.

"Plenty of time" may be true with most rattlers, but the Mojave Green is an exception. The Mojave Green's venom consists of both hemotoxins and neurotoxins. So the bite from a Mojave Green may often not even cause any localized damage, as with other rattlers.
Since the snake is so similar looking to the diamondback (same diamond pattern for the most part), and the effects of the bite so different, it may be assumed that a bite victim may have not even been envenomed, when actually they may have been.

Generally speaking, if localized symptoms haven

[davehuth]

Well, I side with an ethic that says leave the wildlife, flora, geology, etc. alone whenever possible.

Tom, perhaps you can add a paragraph on this in the Minimal Impact section of ethics at http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/intro/minimum.php.

Anyone else out there publishing stuff might consider doing the same.

[mmac]

Well, I side with an ethic that says leave the wildlife, flora, geology, etc. alone whenever possible.

Tom, perhaps you can add a paragraph on this in the Minimal Impact section of ethics at http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/intro/minimum.php.

Anyone else out there publishing stuff might consider doing the same.

Your URL caught the period at the end of your sentence :)

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/intro/minimum.php

[ratagonia]

Well, I side with an ethic that says leave the wildlife, flora, geology, etc. alone whenever possible.

Tom, perhaps you can add a paragraph on this in the Minimal Impact section of ethics at http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/intro/minimum.php.

Anyone else out there publishing stuff might consider doing the same.

Seems sad to have to make such obvious statements.

"Don't Kill Things"?

Seems like that has been part of the Judeo-Christian ethic for, say, 4000 years...

Tom :moses:

[ilanimaka]

"Don't Kill Things"?

Seems like that has been part of the Judeo-Christian ethic for, say, 4000 years...

Tom :moses:

I'm not touching that one. :haha:

[davehuth]

Seems sad to have to make such obvious statements.
"Don't Kill Things"?
Seems like that has been part of the Judeo-Christian ethic for, say, 4000 years...

My wife is a high school teacher...it is very surprising to hear how many people growing up these days aren't exposed to wilderness ethic, they grow up terminating anything that isn't wanted in the house or yard.

I agree with you, it is sad that this is not obvious to everyone, and that the urban societal trend is making it less obvious, especially with creatures like snakes and scoprions and spiders that are often portrayed as threats.

[Iceaxe]

Leave no trace is pretty simple.....

it doesn't mean leave no trace except for dead snakes......

[oldno7]

Seems sad to have to make such obvious statements.
"Don't Kill Things"?
Seems like that has been part of the Judeo-Christian ethic for, say, 4000 years...

My wife is a high school teacher...it is very surprising to hear how many people growing up these days aren't exposed to wilderness ethic, they grow up terminating anything that isn't wanted in the house or yard.

I agree with you, it is sad that this is not obvious to everyone, and that the urban societal trend is making it less obvious, especially with creatures like snakes and scoprions and spiders that are often portrayed as threats.

Says the guy holding up the DEAD fish......... :roflol:

[Randi]

Seems sad to have to make such obvious statements.
"Don't Kill Things"?
Seems like that has been part of the Judeo-Christian ethic for, say, 4000 years...

My wife is a high school teacher...it is very surprising to hear how many people growing up these days aren't exposed to wilderness ethic, they grow up terminating anything that isn't wanted in the house or yard.

I agree with you, it is sad that this is not obvious to everyone, and that the urban societal trend is making it less obvious, especially with creatures like snakes and scoprions and spiders that are often portrayed as threats.

Says the guy holding up the DEAD fish......... :roflol:

:lol8: That is funny!
However, I'm sure he didn't kill the fish outta fear.
Killing for food is different...

[davehuth]

Catch and release...thats a live Florida bass.

[cilantro13]

If you are midrappel and you notice electric eels in the pool you are dropping into, can you kill them?

[devo_stevo]

I have a wallet made of eelskin. Some innocent and adorable hagfish had to die to make it. I like the wallet.

I would leave a rattlesnake alone though. They don't want to bite you anymore than you want to be bitten.

[RedRoxx]

Good Grief---I guess anything can happen under any given day. See lots of rattlers down here, they're at your door, in the street when you walk, under bushes on the trail, and sometimes under your butt when you decide to answer a call of nature, as it was for my boyfriend this weekend, a nice Mohave which decided to hide under a rock after viewing uh---- but no bites.

Seriously, a lot of caves we crawl in during summer months under go a snake check at the entrance. I've been less than 8 inches from a blacktail flat out on my stomach and get that certain clench in your gut when you hear that rattle. They truely are more interested in getting away from you than anything.
On digs in Canelo Hills here it is standard operating procedure to remove rattlers in 5 gallon plastic buckets, haul em up and take them out away from the dig. We never kill them, even when they are pissed off when we take them out.
I remember rapping into an airy crack near Holbrook onto a ledge onto a rock. Landed then the whole place started buzzing, five baby snakes under a rock. I made sure I stepped clear, located them, checked on the crack possibilities, carefully leaped up on the rock and ascended. No harm done.

[Scott Card]

WOW! Five pages. Time to move this to the political thread. Did someone kill gay Mormon rattlesnakes named Obama?

[Kent K25]

WOW! Five pages. Time to move this to the political thread. Did someone kill gay Mormon rattlesnakes named Obama?

Yes, and it happened in Israel!

[Iceaxe]

I heard the snakes were enriching uranium.....



http://i39.tinypic.com/2u74vnm.jpg