First Time!

[blueeyes]

As the trip to Zion creeps closer and closer I was getting more nervous. I don

[Cirrus2000]

:nono: Helmets!


(Had to be said... I'm sure others will say it too.)


Way to go, Cher

[Alex]

Also, wear gloves, they really save your hands. Newbies (like me) always get the rope burn

[ratagonia]

[quote=Cirrus2000]:nono: Helmets!
(Had to be said... I'm sure others will say it too.)

Way to go, Cher

[theking648]

:frustrated: no fair you got to go before I did.

looks like you had fun. but one question.... you would rather hang by a rope that could break at anytime. (just like in the movies :haha: ) instead of riding down 3 fingers of death on bearclaw poppy? :lol8:

well I guess I'll see you at bogleyfest.... that is if i don't checken out. :eek2:

[sarahlizzy]

[quote=blueeyes]As he is showing me how these ropes are anchored up at the top he asks me.

[lisa]

Good for you for trying something that scared you! I think we should all do at least a couple things a year that scare the heck out of us.

Thanks for sharing your experience. :2thumbs:

[blueeyes]

[quote=sarahlizzy][quote=blueeyes]As he is showing me how these ropes are anchored up at the top he asks me.

[accadacca]

Awesome! Looks like you had a great experience. Kudos to Don and company. Your all set for Zion! :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

[quote=blueeyes][quote=sarahlizzy][quote=blueeyes]As he is showing me how these ropes are anchored up at the top he asks me.

[Don]

Yeah, we should have had helmets. Funny; I

[Don]

Oh, and about gloves. I don

[ratagonia]

[quote=Don]Oh, and about gloves. I don

[Scout Master]

Chere
Santa is So proud of you

[moab mark]

[quote=ratagonia][quote=Don]Oh, and about gloves. I don

[blueeyes]

one question.... you would rather hang by a rope that could break at anytime. (just like in the movies :haha: ) instead of riding down 3 fingers of death on bearclaw poppy? :lol8:

well I guess I'll see you at bogleyfest.... that is if i don't checken out. :eek2:

Ummmm YES!!!! One fear at a time here. That drop on 3 fingers makes me want to throw up thinking about riding down it. Maybe.... someday...





Even bike helmets are a LOT better than nothing.

Tom

I actually did bring my bike helmet so I could wear it. But I left it in the car and didn't think about it. I was concentrating so hard on every word coming out of Don's mouth. Like I said I PROMISE I will always wear one from here on out. PROMISE!!!


Chere
Santa is So proud of you

Thanks Santa!

[Cirrus2000]

A) Helmets - yeah, Don, I was surprised by safety guy. But I can see it, for sure. Funny how one can get complacent in a familiar place. I'm planning a scramble with a co-worker in a couple of weeks, and we've discussed how he needs to bring his bike helmet along for the... spicier bits. He's joking about bringing along his motorcycle helmet.

B) Gloves - I particularly like them in the North Wash skinnies, when using your hands for galumphing and stemming, etc. I need to have fingerprints available for my security clearance, so I don't want to wear them away. :haha: For the rapping, I like having them on a long, single, skinny rope rappel, but generally don't care to use them much.

C) Friction - this reminds me of when abirken and offspring were rapping the last drop in U-Turn at Moabfest. Alison went ahead of Ben. Ben was at the start of the rappel - thick rope, double strand. Lots of weight hanging on the brake end of the rope (50 feet or whatever.) I had to show him how to actually lift the rope and feed it into the rappel device, because he was too light to get down the rope. Well, he went over the edge, and his mom saw him... "Get your hand back! Hang onto the rope further back!" Well, normally yes, but... not always. There was a wee bit of panic, then parent/child tension for a moment, 'til I called down that he had to do it that way because there was too much friction. :nod:

[abirken]

Kev- Yes I was being a bossy mom. haha!! All I could see at that point was a horribly pinched finger or two. :lol8: I was glad you yelled down to me that you told him to do it that way. Didn't even dawn on me at that point that his weight or lack of weight would affect the rappel. I think I am a glove person? So far, I prefer them b/c I'm not crazy about how hot my hands get on that rope. I may try cutting off the glove fingers in order to be more nimble on the next canyon like someone mentioned above....... :2thumbs:

[Cirrus2000]

Kev- Yes I was being a bossy mom. haha!!

It was really very cute! You could hear just how concerned you were - it was a stressful time for you, for sure! But all's well that ends well! :five:

[Sombeech]

:roflol:

I sure hope you learned your lesson. Don't post photos in the canyoneering section unless you consult with somebody first.

[Scott Card]

Gloves -- I am a desk jocky. I like gloves. I wear them most of the time in canyons. Guess I am still a newb. I can rap without them but why?

[tanya]

:roflol:

I sure hope you learned your lesson. Don't post photos in the canyoneering section unless you consult with somebody first.


:roflol:

[oldno7]

Kev- Yes I was being a bossy mom. haha!! All I could see at that point was a horribly pinched finger or two. :lol8: I was glad you yelled down to me that you told him to do it that way. Didn't even dawn on me at that point that his weight or lack of weight would affect the rappel. I think I am a glove person? So far, I prefer them b/c I'm not crazy about how hot my hands get on that rope. I may try cutting off the glove fingers in order to be more nimble on the next canyon like someone mentioned above....... :2thumbs:

You have serious friction problems on your rappel device. Heres the scenario--you wear your glove on rappel, it hides the fact that you have way to little friction. Your glove heats up but you don't understand what that is telling you. Eventually on a long rappel the glove will get so hot that it burns your hand(literally) you want your hand to cool off because the heat has become extreme. Eventually it will get so hot your option as a beginner is to make the pain go away, you do this by dropping the rope in your brakehand. End result----SPLAT----

OR--you could learn how to safely rappel with adequate friction and no glove. If your hand warms up you have been taught to add friction mid rappel and this makes your hand cool down. You master a particular rappel device until you understand it completely and what it is telling you.
THEN--if you want to wear a glove to protect your hands you have the knowledge and experience to do so safely, without the SPLAT!!

Just food for thought................

[moab mark]

Kev- Yes I was being a bossy mom. haha!! All I could see at that point was a horribly pinched finger or two. :lol8: I was glad you yelled down to me that you told him to do it that way. Didn't even dawn on me at that point that his weight or lack of weight would affect the rappel. I think I am a glove person? So far, I prefer them b/c I'm not crazy about how hot my hands get on that rope. I may try cutting off the glove fingers in order to be more nimble on the next canyon like someone mentioned above....... :2thumbs:

You have serious friction problems on your rappel device. Heres the scenario--you wear your glove on rappel, it hides the fact that you have way to little friction. Your glove heats up but you don't understand what that is telling you. Eventually on a long rappel the glove will get so hot that it burns your hand(literally) you want your hand to cool off because the heat has become extreme. Eventually it will get so hot your option as a beginner is to make the pain go away, you do this by dropping the rope in your brakehand. End result----SPLAT----

OR--you could learn how to safely rappel with adequate friction and no glove. If your hand warms up you have been taught to add friction mid rappel and this makes your hand cool down. You master a particular rappel device until you understand it completely and what it is telling you.
THEN--if you want to wear a glove to protect your hands you have the knowledge and experience to do so safely, without the SPLAT!!

Just food for thought................

I think if you turned that reasoning completely around I could agree. Yes someone maybe has been taught to add friction mid rappel but what if they can't make it happen? So now we put them on a double rope to get them more friction. Some day they are going to probably move from double to single. Do they have any idea how much friction to add at that point? That is a big change in friction. Are they now ready to make that jump without a glove? Then there soft hand is all that is between them and splat. I know training training training. Teach them with the glove on and then when they get comfortable they can make a change. At this point I could easily move to not using a glove. I started out without gloves and burnt my hand bad one time. I set up one time and missed one of the teeth on my piranha. I did not have a fireman belay, first down, and got cruising before I realized I was in trouble. I could of gone crashing down so easily and it was just a simple mistake. In hind sight maybe not a simple mistake but it can happen.
Seems to me that most beginners will start off with a reasonable amount of friction but then they get moving a little to fast and then cannot stop completely to add the needed friction. At this point with a glove on they may have a fighting chance otherwise the fireman had better be paying attention.
Now that beginner is headed down a single rope that is wet at the top and half way down is dry. The change in friction at that point is huge.

How many rappelers add friction mid rappel? The beginner has probably never done that when on a double. I bet most just learn there device and set it properly from the top.

I have never understood the argument that the glove hides the heat? If you start to feel heat in your gloves stop and add friction. The beauty of a glove is one most can stop themselves and two you can just continue on to the bottom with some heat.

If I may use Abirken's example, she is new to the sport I do not think she has had any formal training? Those that were with her probably helped her set her device where they felt she needed it but they were off just a little. Or she was having FUN and going a little to fast. Without the glove she would of burnt her hand or gone splat. Now next time she can go hey Kev my glove was pretty warm. Kev goes ok on this next one lets add a little more friction. Learns without blisters.

I could be off on this but I bet most of the canyoneering groups that are doing 3 level canyons are like me. Have a couple of guys with the needed experience but the rest have either had no formal training or have been to a basic ACA class or the usual comment "I rappelled once years ago". Those classes are awesome to give people a taste of what the sport entails but they are not ready to go out and adjust friction mid rappel. But in most 3 level canyons with an experience leader at the top and one on the ground and a glove on their hand they'll probably get down and not need a belay. Yes they can also get down with proper leadership without a glove, but my wife and kids hands are pretty soft.

One question on ATC's. I have only used one a couple of times, how do you add friction to an ATC mid rappel?

You can all beat me up now I can take it. :2thumbs:

Mark

[nonot]

In your photo 6-10-09 4.jpg

In the future, I would recommend you not place your hand there. I have seen too many people either get their fingers caught up and pinched while rappelling, or shift their hand upwards and burn it on their rappelling device.

I usually ask people to put their hand above their device if they need the upper hand for stability or to guide the rope, or else to get use to leaving their free hand hanging at their side.

Just a tip, I think you've been beaten up enough by the others :D

[oldno7]

Kev- Yes I was being a bossy mom. haha!! All I could see at that point was a horribly pinched finger or two. :lol8: I was glad you yelled down to me that you told him to do it that way. Didn't even dawn on me at that point that his weight or lack of weight would affect the rappel. I think I am a glove person? So far, I prefer them b/c I'm not crazy about how hot my hands get on that rope. I may try cutting off the glove fingers in order to be more nimble on the next canyon like someone mentioned above....... :2thumbs:

You have serious friction problems on your rappel device. Heres the scenario--you wear your glove on rappel, it hides the fact that you have way to little friction. Your glove heats up but you don't understand what that is telling you. Eventually on a long rappel the glove will get so hot that it burns your hand(literally) you want your hand to cool off because the heat has become extreme. Eventually it will get so hot your option as a beginner is to make the pain go away, you do this by dropping the rope in your brakehand. End result----SPLAT----

OR--you could learn how to safely rappel with adequate friction and no glove. If your hand warms up you have been taught to add friction mid rappel and this makes your hand cool down. You master a particular rappel device until you understand it completely and what it is telling you.
THEN--if you want to wear a glove to protect your hands you have the knowledge and experience to do so safely, without the SPLAT!!

Just food for thought................



How many rappelers add friction mid rappel? The beginner has probably never done that when on a double. I bet most just learn there device and set it properly from the top.





Mark

I adjust my friction on almost every rappel that approaches or exceeds 100'.
We teach in our BSW many ways to adjust friction, both before the rappel starts and mid rappel. Not knowing these methods has caused several free falls, the most recent I remember was the guy in Pine Creek. His hand was getting hot, he thought I need to do something. By then it was too late and he free fell 40' and had to be lifted 600' up to the tunnel window and waiting ambulance. If that accident happened today in Pine Creeks current state I would guess he would have been dead.
The methods I describe have been used on thousands of student's with fairly good result's. I think the difference between that and a method that only a few have had success with might be significant. That's not to say another method is wrong, only that the ACA has a track record, not perfect but pretty dang good considering the numbers.
It really comes down to personal preference and safety, with safety always coming first.
It may not be wise for newbies to formulate an opinion after having done 1/2 a dozen canyons.

[nonot]

So let's discuss...long rappel, your hand is getting hot. What are your options:

With a rack, solution is obvious.

On Pirana, add friction with the little horns.

Without, add friction by making use of a leg z-rig

Stop your rappel by pulling the rope behind you, possibly grabbing it with both hands behind you, maybe spitting water on your rappel device several times from your camelback if it is too hot so it doesn't glaze the rope? When you are ready to continue, rappel slower and get your brake hand way into the small of your back?
Others?

Does anyone else enjoy the sizzling sound a figure 8 makes when it cools down after a long rappel into a plunge pool?

Edit: ugh, picture messes up the page display, click below for a pic of a z-rig
http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z.jpg

[moab mark]

In your photo 6-10-09 4.jpg

In the future, I would recommend you not place your hand there. I have seen too many people either get their fingers caught up and pinched while rappelling, or shift their hand upwards and burn it on their rappelling device.

I usually ask people to put their hand above their device if they need the upper hand for stability or to guide the rope, or else to get use to leaving their free hand hanging at their side.

Just a tip, I think you've been beaten up enough by the others :D

I'm not sure of what picture you are talking about but I imagine it shows someone rappeling with both hands below the device.
This is a good point, how many people rappel with both hands below or one below and one above? When we took our class at ZAC's they at the time taught both below.
I actually do it both ways just by how the rappel is going.



Mark

[moab mark]

So let's discuss...long rappel, your hand is getting hot. What are your options:

With a rack, solution is obvious.

On Pirana, add friction with the little horns.

Without, add friction by making use of a leg z-rig

Stop your rappel by pulling the rope behind you, possibly grabbing it with both hands behind you, maybe spitting water on your rappel device several times from your camelback if it is too hot so it doesn't glaze the rope? When you are ready to continue, rappel slower and get your brake hand way into the small of your back?
Others?

Does anyone else enjoy the sizzling sound a figure 8 makes when it cools down after a long rappel into a plunge pool?

Edit: ugh, picture messes up the page display, click below for a pic of a z-rig
http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z.jpg

How about just put on a glove and solve 90% of these problems. I realize everyone has a different way of doing this sport. But the concept that a glove teaches bad habits I am not following. If people want to go without a glove and then adjust if needed more power to them. I prefer to go with a glove and then adjust if needed. If #$%^ hits the fan my odds are a lot better with a 2 gloves on then off.

[moab mark]

Kev- Yes I was being a bossy mom. haha!! All I could see at that point was a horribly pinched finger or two. :lol8: I was glad you yelled down to me that you told him to do it that way. Didn't even dawn on me at that point that his weight or lack of weight would affect the rappel. I think I am a glove person? So far, I prefer them b/c I'm not crazy about how hot my hands get on that rope. I may try cutting off the glove fingers in order to be more nimble on the next canyon like someone mentioned above....... :2thumbs:

You have serious friction problems on your rappel device. Heres the scenario--you wear your glove on rappel, it hides the fact that you have way to little friction. Your glove heats up but you don't understand what that is telling you. Eventually on a long rappel the glove will get so hot that it burns your hand(literally) you want your hand to cool off because the heat has become extreme. Eventually it will get so hot your option as a beginner is to make the pain go away, you do this by dropping the rope in your brakehand. End result----SPLAT----

OR--you could learn how to safely rappel with adequate friction and no glove. If your hand warms up you have been taught to add friction mid rappel and this makes your hand cool down. You master a particular rappel device until you understand it completely and what it is telling you.
THEN--if you want to wear a glove to protect your hands you have the knowledge and experience to do so safely, without the SPLAT!!

Just food for thought................



How many rappelers add friction mid rappel? The beginner has probably never done that when on a double. I bet most just learn there device and set it properly from the top.





Mark

I adjust my friction on almost every rappel that approaches or exceeds 100'.
We teach in our BSW many ways to adjust friction, both before the rappel starts and mid rappel. Not knowing these methods has caused several free falls, the most recent I remember was the guy in Pine Creek. His hand was getting hot, he thought I need to do something. By then it was too late and he free fell 40' and had to be lifted 600' up to the tunnel window and waiting ambulance. If that accident happened today in Pine Creeks current state I would guess he would have been dead.
The methods I describe have been used on thousands of student's with fairly good result's. I think the difference between that and a method that only a few have had success with might be significant. That's not to say another method is wrong, only that the ACA has a track record, not perfect but pretty dang good considering the numbers.
It really comes down to personal preference and safety, with safety always coming first.
It may not be wise for newbies to formulate an opinion after having done 1/2 a dozen canyons.

Kurt,

I had never heard about the guy that fell at Pinecreek. Did he have gloves on?

Everything you are saying I agree with 99% but how does a glove change what the ACA is teaching? Just gives a little more protection.

I guess I look at it like saying, going to go ride motorcycle probably won't need my chest protector but ...... yea probably do not need that glove but.........On a rappel 100' with 2 good leather gloves on I would imagine you would really have to of set your device up with about no friction to not be able to get to the bottom with your gloves hot enough to let go. But without gloves wouldn't take much.

But regardless what it comes down to is whether wearing a glove or not everyone needs to have enough training so they are comfortable with their own method.



Mark

[trackrunner]

One question on ATC's. I have only used one a couple of times, how do you add friction to an ATC mid rappel?

I put a biner on my leg loop. If I need more friction I run the rope through the biner and redirect it, pull up on rope now and you get more friction. Can also do a z-rig mid rappel.

[moab mark]

Trackrunner,

Do you put it on your off leg or brake hand leg?

Mark

[trackrunner]

Trackrunner,

Do you put it on your off leg or brake hand leg?

Mark

I put it on my break hand. Have also heard people put on the non break side and they say it increases the friction even more, but I've never tried it so I can't tell you form my own experience.

[moab mark]

I have very little experience with an ATC. We had a guy last time in Moab that had one that does not have ribs on oneside? He weighed a little over 200lbs. Went down the Arch rappel on ROA in moab. He was moving way to fast at the bottom and had to have the belay help him. He had on bike gloves and wore a hole through and got gel all over the rope. On the last rappel put it through a biner on his leg and he struggled making that work. On the next 100 we did he put it through a biner on his other leg. He could control himself at that point. When you z rig it do you go up to a carabiner clipped on the rope or one clipped somewhere else? I saw a picture of a single rope being placed through both openings on a ATC. Have you ever tried that?
His 120 lb wife has the same device and just goes down slick as can be with no extra friction. Sucks to be heavy.

Thanks
Mark

[trackrunner]

This is what I meant by a z-rig. Also seen it when someone extends the device and then clips the upper biner through the biner running to the device. Note i use a locking biner instead of non lockers

http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z_diagram.jpg

The above works well adding friction mid rappel. You can pre rig an atc by adding a second biner under the divice so the rope goes around two biners instead of one.

[blueeyes]

In your photo 6-10-09 4.jpg

In the future, I would recommend you not place your hand there. I have seen too many people either get their fingers caught up and pinched while rappelling, or shift their hand upwards and burn it on their rappelling device.

I usually ask people to put their hand above their device if they need the upper hand for stability or to guide the rope, or else to get use to leaving their free hand hanging at their side.

Just a tip, I think you've been beaten up enough by the others :D

Beat me up! I can take it... I learn the best from my mistakes. Well I shouldn't say I learn the best, but it seems like when I make a mistake that is so very well pointed out I am very good about NOT making the same mistake twice.

Don told me not to do that. I will work on it.

Seriously I don't mind the feedback or the comments. I want to learn.

[moab mark]

Blueeyes,

Not that it really matters, you got to the bottom. But I'm not sure what is wrong with that picture? It doesn't look like you have your left hand on the rope? If that is what is supposedly wrong. What were you holding onto? Was your device extended from your harness? Were you holding onto the leash?
Your device is a long ways from your waist.
Mark

[blueeyes]

I went back and looked at that pic. It is not the rope that is sliding that I am holding onto. I don't know what part of the contraption you would call that. But it was connected to my harnass, I don't know. Don said it was ok to hold there if it made me feel better and not to hold the rope that I was sliding down on because I would get my fingers caught.

I really was so nervous and the one thing I noticed as soon as I both feet hit firm ground was how sore my left shoulder was. I think I had a death grip on that piece I was holding. Next time I don't think I will be nearly as nervous and probably could just let my left arm dangle.

[moab mark]

Your device was probably extended. I'll bet you had quite a high when your feet touched the ground. Next time will be much easier.

[desotodave]

Blue Eyes, where is that rap in AF Canyon? I have not done that one. How high is it?

[Don]

Blue Eyes, where is that rap in AF Canyon? I have not done that one. How high is it?

Maybe half a mile past the cave visitor's center. Parking is a small pull off on the left, then you walk back down canyon to the climbing spot. It's a bolted sport route that can be top-roped by scrambling up a crack behind the wall. I think it's close but shy of 100 feet. Probably closer to 90 feet. I've got a 60 meter climbing rope that I have used for a double-rope rappel there. When set with the middle of the rope at the anchor both halves will reach the bottom with rope to spare.
Edit: The sport climb is only about half the height of the wall. You top-rope the route by scrambling up the crack, rappelling from bolts down to chains bolted into the wall about mid-way down. Set your climbing rope at the chains then rap to the bottom.

Where are you from? Hit me up in a PM or add me on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=hpskip#!/profile.php?id=567633203) and maybe I could meet you.
Here's a map.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=204821587750412566862.0004a90e9f524ae74c0ab&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=19>

[desotodave]

Don,

I am in Alpine. AF is my regular spot for teaching rappelling. I usually take people up to the Y and go to the spot just on the left hand side on the road toward Tibble fork. Going to be there tomorrow at about 6 with a bunch of newbs.

Dave

[blueeyes]

Ask Don... he and Cody took me. I remember it being on the right side of the canyon as you drove up and I want to say Don told me it was 80ft. But my memory is seriously foggy on this. It was fun!

Edit:

Never mind. Been off the grid for a couple weeks now and using library computer (slow and I am very behind on posts)