Scenario - Flipped Upside Down

[oldno7]

I would venture a guess that 90% of canyoneers are ill prepared for adversity in a canyon.

If you are talking Zion canyoneers I would totally agree.... if talking CP canyoneers as a whole I think your number is way high.... I've found those venturing to areas outside of Zion to be much better prepared...

I've always assumed this is the amusement park type attitude that surrounds Zion. Those who drive 50 miles down crappy dirt roads in the Roost, Escalante and Swell seem to have a much better grasp on reality....

Just my 2 cents.....

:cool2:

Nope, in my very un-official survey, I include all area's.
I think having a grasp on what your getting into, vs. knowing how to get out of the sticky wicket are 2 VERY different things.
This should probably be it's own thread, but----I'll throw out a quick one as I think a majority here rappel double strand.

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. The rope becomes twisted and with his weight on it he is stuck. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

[Iceaxe]

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

Nice setup, but I almost never hear of this type thing being a problem outside of Zion... Honestly... biggest error I usually hear about outside of Zion is navigational and not technical.... YMMV....

:cool2:

[Iceaxe]

Maybe let me put this anther way.....

90% of the canyoneers I run into in Zion scare the shit out of me..... and I think they might die.

Probably only 20% of the canyoneers I run into outside of Zion scare the shit out of me....

Your Mileage May Vary.... I'd like to see a few others attach percentages to see what others think....

:cool2:

[oldno7]

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

Nice setup, but I almost never hear of this type thing being a problem outside of Zion... Honestly... biggest error I usually hear about outside of Zion is navigational and not technical.... YMMV....

:cool2:

I really wasn't throwing this out at you Shane, more at the group to maybe expand on where Tom may or may not have been heading with the discussion.
The more everyone knows, the better off we all are. imo

[oldno7]

Maybe let me put this anther way.....

90% of the canyoneers I run into in Zion scare the shit out of me..... and I think they might die.

Probably only 20% of the canyoneers I run into outside of Zion scare the shit out of me....

Your Mileage May Vary.... I'd like to see a few others attach percentages to see what others think....

:cool2:

I'll even help with the poll--- By throwing in an extra 100' rope to my above scenario. How many canyoneers out of 10 can solve this dilemma? If I'm coming off as snide I'll quit.(not my intention) Just trying to add to the reality check. I could post dozens more scenarios if you want to increase the polls credibility.

[Brian in SLC]

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. The rope becomes twisted and with his weight on it he is stuck. He can't get himself upright.

Had a pretty similar scenario to this happen in Crete. Bonus was, was over a huge 240 foot drop. Partner got their figure eight cattywhompus (sorry, had to get all technical) and it jammed the rope in as it oriented sideways. Scary as heck. I got to them pretty quick and was able to assist. Big air assist.

I'd be less than happy to do this type of thing over drop especially where a couple of perfectly good bolts had been removed, and, replaced with a rock buried in the sand, with a single piece of sling sticking out of the sand.

Perhaps "someone" is an asshat on a number of levels? Ha ha.

One rule I keep trying to remember when spraggin' and/or spraying on the 'net. Don't say something online you aren't willing to say to someone, or, their living relatives and/or friends, in person.

Name calling is all part of a loss of credibility....

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

I split this off into it's own thread because I think working through Scenario's can be a good thing....

Ready - set - go.....

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

I missed this one when splitting the posts....


I'll play! I'm a noob but always interested in learning. Makes it tough that you only give us one rope I think. My first guess would be his pack is too friggin heavy. So I say drop the pack and see if he is able to self right?

Is he rappelling on single strand via a block or using both strands? If he was using a single I would encourage him to grab the free rope and use it for leverage.

Wrong?
:popcorn:

Just for the record this is on a whole different level than jumping into a raging whirlpool after someone in your party already died. But I'm still curious of the answer.

[oldno7]

I missed this one when splitting the posts....




Just for the record this is on a whole different level than jumping into a raging whirlpool after someone in your party already died. But I'm still curious of the answer.

If you don't save this guy from hanging upside down, he's just as dead.

I can solve this at least 3 different ways with the things I carry on my harness or in my pack on EVERY trip.(maybe not keyhole) :lol8:
But the excersize is not for me, it's to determine what % of canyoneers are willing to put there huge ego's aside and say. "If this happened to my buddy,wife,son,daughter'(insert what you want)...........THEY WILL BE DEAD!
Or----I have the solution and can solve it in a timely enough matter to save their lives.
The scenario was rappelling double strand.

What will the % be?

[trackrunner]

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. The rope becomes twisted and with his weight on it he is stuck. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

How did it become twisted? Did it rap around him or twisted up so that it's kind of fireman belaying him?

Not fully understanding the scenario here are a couple things that may help. If there is a second rope on top and the anchor is bomer you can do a pick off or rig a MA to raise him and unweight the rope.
raise him and unweight the rope.

[oldno7]

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. The rope becomes twisted and with his weight on it he is stuck. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

How did it become twisted? Did it rap around him or twisted up so that it's kind of fireman belaying him?

Not fully understanding the scenario here are a couple things that may help. If there is a second rope on top and the anchor is bomer you can do a pick off or rig a MA to raise him and unweight the rope.
raise him and unweight the rope.

How it became twisted? We'll say it wrapped around him. Although somewhat of a moot point.

Tell me in more detail how you would raise him on a double strand rope or pick him off. Your onto some great ideas. But you have to list details. Saying haul system on the internet vs. doing one under pressure, may vary slightly.

1) Brian said it and Shaun did too, no matter what you need a bomber anchor. Might have to create a second one.
2)
3)
4)
5)

[Jaxx]

I'll play.
I would get my prussics off my harness and hook them both to the anchor and then one to each strand of the rope with a french wrap or similar knot. I would then have them lower themselves while holding only one strand. Once the strand was weighted you could tie off the other end and use the exra end to rap. You would have to pull it out or have your victim pull it out of their device.
The reason for both prussics is to make sure you cover your bases incase there is a mix up in which rope they are going to weight.
This may not be the best but it is what came to mind first. If you are going to rip me a new one please use lube.

[oldno7]

I'll play.
I would get my prussics off my harness and hook them both to the anchor and then one to each strand of the rope with a french wrap or similar knot. I would then have them lower themselves while holding only one strand. Once the strand was weighted you could tie off the other end and use the exra end to rap. You would have to pull it out or have your victim pull it out of their device.
The reason for both prussics is to make sure you cover your bases incase there is a mix up in which rope they are going to weight.
This may not be the best but it is what came to mind first. If you are going to rip me a new one please use lube.

I have no intention of ripping any new ones. I learn as much from these as anyone. Besides, I'm no guru, just made a 90% incompetent claim to Shane and seeing if I'm way off.
My biggest fear in canyoneering is sitting by while someone perishes because I didn't know what to do.

[davehuth]

Just did this last weekend, hauled the person up, she was rather small...there was more that one person on top...the rope was not wrapped around her neck or anything like that. So no fair in this game, but we would not be in the situation with only one rope etc. Good for us that she was happy to go again.

Step one, don't panic and assess the situation. Quadruple the anchor strength. Then choose your best option without killing yourself too...

[Iceaxe]

My first though was just lower a biner on the second rope and have him clip in so I could pull him back upright from up top.....

But now you say he is twisted.....

So maybe lower a biner on the second rope and have him clip and than lower him to the ground after releasing the rope he is tangled in....

But maybe he is disabled?

So why not just tie your second rope into the rap ring up top and set the second rope up as its own rappel/lowering system and than cut the webbing holding the first rope?

No way I'm rigging a system to raise the guy, that's to much like hard work.....

Anyhoo.... that's the direction I'm starting off in..... easy, simple and fast....

:popcorn:

[trackrunner]

How did it become twisted? Did it rap around him or twisted up so that it's kind of fireman belaying him?

Wanted to know if it was twisted around him or the rope twisted around itself jaming the device.

A couple ways to do a haul system here one Ice and think someone else mentioned. Lower another rope if he can clip it to himself and raise him using a 3 to 1, 4 to 1, 5 to 1, 6 to 1 system depending on what you think you need.

Another way to raise him is attach a second rope to his rope using prussics or ascenders make sure you got both strands of his rope. then use MA to raise him.

Make sure to use a ratchet or something similar incase you need to stop the raise that he doesn't fall.

For a pick off you can use a second rope. Extend your rap device rigged for extra friction, maybe even two devices if necssary. Rap down to him clip into him using another cowstail running to the device. Lock off. Cut his rope and continue rapping down to saftey. T

Also could rap to him. Lock off, clip into him, help him unweight everything, get him back on rope saftley and then unclip so he can continue rapping on his own.

Another way is use a second rope and securrely attach it the other rope using both strands, prussic, ascenders. Cut his rop obove this and then use the other rope to lower him safley to the ground.

[oldno7]

My first though was just lower a biner on the second rope and have him clip in so I could pull him back upright from up top.....

But now you say he is twisted.....

So maybe lower a biner on the second rope and have him clip and than lower him to the ground after releasing the rope he is tangled in....

But maybe he is disabled?

So why not just tie your second rope into the rap ring up top and set the second rope up as its own rappel/lowering system and than cut the webbing holding the first rope?

No way I'm rigging a system to raise the guy, that's to much like hard work.....

Anyhoo.... that's the direction I'm starting off in..... easy, simple and fast....

:popcorn:

I think were gaining------
So, what if instead of trying to lower a biner(victim may or may not be able to help)We attached a grab on the double strands(could be a prusic cord or even 2 tiblocs)Hook a biner through our grab, then attach your rescue rope (that everyone carries in there pack). :mrgreen: To the biner and up to a new rapide.(loaded rope is in the first rapide)Then we need to make that rope into a lowering system(any ideas?) before we CUT the existing webbing or rope if necessary.

[davehuth]

Um, there is no other rope in this scenario. Seems the top guy has to go down, or someone on the bottom (if there is someone there) has to jug up. Unless of course the guy on top has enough webbing to use in place of a rope.

[oldno7]

How did it become twisted? Did it rap around him or twisted up so that it's kind of fireman belaying him?

Wanted to know if it was twisted around him or the rope twisted around itself jaming the device.

A couple ways to do a haul system here one Ice and think someone else mentioned. Lower another rope if he can clip it to himself and raise him using a 3 to 1, 4 to 1, 5 to 1, 6 to 1 system depending on what you think you need.

Another way to raise him is attach a second rope to his rope using prussics or ascenders make sure you got both strands of his rope. then use MA to raise him.

Make sure to use a ratchet or something similar incase you need to stop the raise that he doesn't fall.

For a pick off you can use a second rope. Extend your rap device rigged for extra friction, maybe even two devices if necssary. Rap down to him clip into him using another cowstail running to the device. Lock off. Cut his rope and continue rapping down to saftey. T

Also could rap to him. Lock off, clip into him, help him unweight everything, get him back on rope saftley and then unclip so he can continue rapping on his own.

Another way is use a second rope and securrely attach it the other rope using both strands, prussic, ascenders. Cut his rop obove this and then use the other rope to lower him safley to the ground.

Awesome Shaun, I'm with you though. I wouldn't discount hauling our victim back up if it was prudent.

Theres smoother ways to do a pick-off, without cutting the rope.

I like your rap down, evaluate, render aide and send em on there way idea.

[trackrunner]

We attached a grab on the double strands(could be a prusic cord or even 2 tiblocs)Hook a biner through our grab, then attach your rescue rope (that everyone carries in there pack). :mrgreen: To the biner and up to a new rapide.(loaded rope is in the first rapide)Then we need to make that rope into a lowering system(any ideas?) before we CUT the existing webbing or rope if necessary.

Kurt I tired to describe this lowering system earlier cutting the rope. I didn't say make a new rapide but it was obvious to me no way am I going to lower someone hand over hand so I had odmitted if from my earlier post.

How to make the rope into a lowering system could use a munter, your own rap device or contigency style anchor with a figure 8 etc.

[Iceaxe]

Um, there is no other rope in this scenario. Seems the top guy has to go down, or someone on the bottom (if there is someone there) has to jug up. Unless of course the guy on top has enough webbing to use in place of a rope.

Yes, there is a second rope.... at least that is what I understand....


I'll even help with the poll--- By throwing in an extra 100' rope to my above scenario.

:popcorn:

[oldno7]

Um, there is no other rope in this scenario.

Right and wrong---- :haha:

I said I could do the rescue with gear, either in my pack or on my harness.
Personally(and those who have done canyons with me will attest) I always carry a 8mm rescue rope in my pack.(mine was 80' until last week) In this scenario, without THAT rope, your options are not very good.

[oldno7]

kinda got to follow along quickly, we did start the original thread without an additional rope. I threw in a 100' to up the anty. It's all only an excercise in hoping we can solve a problem in real life as well as we do on the internets.

If we have solutions either way, we all still win. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

I like your rap down, evaluate, render aide and send em on there way idea.

Probably just personal preference..... but..... I'm not a big fan of leaving the comfort of the top until I've tried a few simple tactics first..... sliding down to rescue the beautiful woman with your shirt ripping guns is for movie stars... :stud:

Since this was a roost exit rappel I assumed its free handing (can't remember if that was stated). It's hard to work while dangling and spinning in space.

I usually look for the lazy way out first.... :2thumbs:

I know.... not nearly as dramatic but it usually works.... probably what you feel most comfortable with....

:popcorn:

[davehuth]

Oops missed that other rope part. Sure makes the scenario easier - which just goes to show us that having that other rope makes a lot of sense just in case...

[oldno7]

Um, there is no other rope in this scenario. Seems the top guy has to go down, or someone on the bottom (if there is someone there) has to jug up. Unless of course the guy on top has enough webbing to use in place of a rope.

You could not descend the double strand with a "descending device" with the victims weight on it.

Jugging up from the bottom is possible but you have to get above the victim to be able to release the rope.(doable, but very advanced)

[trackrunner]

I like your rap down, evaluate, render aide and send em on there way idea.

Probably just personal preference..... but..... I'm not a big fan of leaving the comfort of the top until I've tried a few simple tactics first..... sliding down to rescue the beautiful woman with your shirt ripping guns is for movie stars... :stud:

I usually look for the lazy way out first.... :2thumbs:

I know.... not nearly as dramatic but it usually works.... probably what you feel most comfortable with....

:popcorn:

Wasn't trying to show off :stud:

I didn't rank my ideas in what I would do first just trying to list as may different ways to solve this problem.

[oldno7]

I like your rap down, evaluate, render aide and send em on there way idea.

Probably just personal preference..... but..... I'm not a big fan of leaving the comfort of the top until I've tried a few simple tactics first..... sliding down to rescue the beautiful woman with your shirt ripping guns is for movie stars... :stud:

I usually look for the lazy way out first.... :2thumbs:

I know.... not nearly as dramatic but it usually works.... probably what you feel most comfortable with....

:popcorn:

Wasn't trying to show off :stud:

I didn't rank my ideas in what I would do first just trying to list as may different ways to solve this problem.

I think we have lot's of valid stuff here.

No one can argue that simpler isn't better and theres huge merit to being able to do a remote rescue(up top) vs. a contact rescue(pick-off,etc). No 2 situations could ever be the same, saying there is an order to proceed in, would not be possible.
If the situation had them unconscious or bleeding profusely, getting to them quick would be important.
If it's your Mother in law, watching the bitch dangle awhile deliriously could have benefit. Or in that case, maybe just cut the rope.

[Iceaxe]

saying there is an order to proceed in, would not be possible.

I disagree..... if it's one of your smartass buddies the FIRST thing you do is tease him unmerciful and take lots of pictures.

:five:

[denaliguide]

1) build a BOMBER anchor.

2) toss the second 100' of rope.

3) rap down with prussiks and enough sling material to rig a chest harness to the vic.

4) when you get next to the victim you can rig a simple chest harness to him. attach a short prussik around both of the ropes above him. clip a biner to the prussik. place a second prussik to the chest harness and attach it with a munter hitch to the biner so that you have a 2:1 and pull him upright and tie it off. put a third prussik on his harness to the rope and then you can get him untangled.

5) a) concious. once the vic is ready you release the tension on the prussik at his waist placing his weight back on the rap device. (you could use another piece of cord to tie into the top prussik and use it as a step in order to release the tension on the waist prussik.) then release just enough tension with the munter at his chest to keep him upright yet still be able to continue the rap with the prussik still attached to the rope.

b) unconcious. once you get the vic upright you tie them into the end of the second rope at his waist and also into the chest harness. you then prussik back up tie them off and then set up a pulley system and raise them up to you or you can set up to lower and then rap down to them.

just a quick idea. should work, might not.

[oldno7]

1) build a BOMBER anchor.

2) toss the second 100' of rope.

3) rap down with prussiks and enough sling material to rig a chest harness to the vic.

4) when you get next to the victim you can rig a simple chest harness to him. attach a short prussik around both of the ropes above him. clip a biner to the prussik. place a second prussik to the chest harness and attach it with a munter hitch to the biner so that you have a 2:1 and pull him upright and tie it off. put a third prussik on his harness to the rope and then you can get him untangled.

5) a) concious. once the vic is ready you release the tension on the prussik at his waist placing his weight back on the rap device. (you could use another piece of cord to tie into the top prussik and use it as a step in order to release the tension on the waist prussik.) then release just enough tension with the munter at his chest to keep him upright yet still be able to continue the rap with the prussik still attached to the rope.

b) unconcious. once you get the vic upright you tie them into the end of the second rope at his waist and also into the chest harness. you then prussik back up tie them off and then set up a pulley system and raise them up to you or you can set up to lower and then rap down to them.

just a quick idea. should work, might not.

On your 4--I"m thinking the bulk of the weight is on the victims harness, if we set up our haul system using the victims harness first, I'm thinking we'd be ahead. Then attach the improvised chest harness.
Keep in mind you have lot's of options for a haul system. I've used the bottom of the victims rope several times(training)If no additional prusics can be found.

5A sounds doable

5B I'd rather put them on my rope at that time and rappel, being able to support an unconscious victim.

[oldno7]

Now lets spin this around and try another approach----------

I think we will all agree, no matter what system we used in the double strand scenario, it was complicated and would probably be hard to do no matter what the level of training.

So--this time we walk up to the same anchor, run our rope through the rapide. But this time we only throw down one side, and instead of a biner or knot, we use a figure 8 device as our block.
The same guy goes down and flips upside down on his single strand and somehow becomes stuck.
What does our last guy on top do to overcome this? And what kind of time frame is involved to solve this new dilemma?
Shane said he prefers to do the easiest things first, and I wholeheartedly agree. What present's the easiest rescue, single or double strand?

[RedRoxx]

Simply buy the best book on this "On Rope" North American Vertical Techniques and study and practice the scenarios. Cavers train to self recover from a heel hang or flip upside down and we train down here sometimes with the local SAR for cave rescues.

I like changeovers and on rope transfers. Those are fun and work your brain and flexibility a lot.

See Chap 12 on Vertical skills and rescue training. And Chapt 10 Vertical Potpourri.

[mmac]

It seems to me (I have very limited rescue training) that you should be able to rig a prussic on the weighted rope and attach it to the anchor. Then, assuming you have enough people, or the rappeller is light enough, you could pull them up enough to disengage and remove the figure-8 block. Put them on belay, and lower. Block again (biner, knot block, etc.)and rappel down. You would probably have to leave your rope, but it would be fast and relatively simple...

[oldno7]

It seems to me (I have very limited rescue training) that you should be able to rig a prussic on the weighted rope and attach it to the anchor. Then, assuming you have enough people, or the rappeller is light enough, you could pull them up enough to disengage and remove the figure-8 block. Put them on belay, and lower. Block again (biner, knot block, etc.)and rappel down. You would probably have to leave your rope, but it would be fast and relatively simple...

It's much simpler than that.

[Pubalz]

You set the figure 8 block as a contingency anchor first off, release the contingency part of the block and belay from above

[oldno7]

You set the figure 8 block as a contingency anchor first off, release the contingency part of the block and belay from above

It's that easy.............
Couldn't take much more than a minute to complete the whole rescue, only it was so easy it doesn't seem like a rescue.
I would change out the word belay for lower though in Daves description.
Release the block and lower........

[ratagonia]

You set the figure 8 block as a contingency anchor first off, release the contingency part of the block and belay from above

It's that easy.............
Couldn't take much more than a minute to complete the whole rescue, only it was so easy it doesn't seem like a rescue.
I would change out the word belay for lower though in Daves description.
Release the block and lower........

One thing about actually practicing these techniques (such as in rescue class), is that it reveals which ones work, which ones kinda work, and which ones work in theory but not so hot in the field. I can do a pickoff of someone who outweighs me, I can do a Valdy-slide down a weighted line, etc. etc... but I would convert to a lower and have the guy on the ground in about 30 seconds. Problem solved.

With practice, a biner block or a Stone Knot can be converted to a lower quite quickly. What's hard is effecting a rescue, when all your resources are committed below you. Rescue training and practice makes it VERY, VERY CLEAR that rapping double strand is not where you want to be when compost hits the spinning thing. Yes, I have people rap double strand, but I have a rescue rope in my pack, and can convert the double-rap rope to a lower in 30 seconds.

Which is why Lord Gandolf, often referred to as Ice, remains a beginner in my book, because he will be standing at the top scratching his head and trying to figure out what to do, when in essence, with all his resources committed below, he cannot effect rescue.

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

You set the figure 8 block as a contingency anchor first off, release the contingency part of the block and belay from above

It's that easy.............
Couldn't take much more than a minute to complete the whole rescue, only it was so easy it doesn't seem like a rescue.
I would change out the word belay for lower though in Daves description.
Release the block and lower........

One thing about actually practicing these techniques (such as in rescue class), is that it reveals which ones work, which ones kinda work, and which ones work in theory but not so hot in the field. I can do a pickoff of someone who outweighs me, I can do a Valdy-slide down a weighted line, etc. etc... but I would convert to a lower and have the guy on the ground in about 30 seconds. Problem solved.

With practice, a biner block or a Stone Knot can be converted to a lower quite quickly. What's hard is effecting a rescue, when all your resources are committed below you. Rescue training and practice makes it VERY, VERY CLEAR that rapping double strand is not where you want to be when compost hits the spinning thing. Yes, I have people rap double strand, but I have a rescue rope in my pack, and can convert the double-rap rope to a lower in 30 seconds.

Which is why Lord Gandolf, often referred to as Ice, remains a beginner in my book, because he will be standing at the top scratching his head and trying to figure out what to do, when in essence, with all his resources committed below, he cannot effect rescue.

Tom :moses:

I knew you would be the one to catch my quotation marks around descending device and mention a valdy, still tricky at best.(no need to go there)
I made mention of trying remote rescue first and then contact rescue, I think that is important
Double strand is fast, easy and safe...........
So is single strand!!
When you encounter problems on double strand you, or someone in your group and preferably on top, better have their poop in a group.
I believe Tom prefers using a munter to lower, I prefer a fig. 8.
Both work great and have there +/-. The key is being proficient with whichever you choose. If you know neither and this conversation confuses you, no problem, your part of the 90%. Get some training before you kill yourself or someone you care about. You will not learn these things online!


So what's your opinion Tom on the % of competent canyoneers who have an adequate tool box? I said 10%. Shane thinks I'm crazy with that number. For the record, I'd be glad to be in the 90% needing more training.
What say you?

[AJ]

You set the figure 8 block as a contingency anchor first off, release the contingency part of the block and belay from above

It's that easy.............
Couldn't take much more than a minute to complete the whole rescue, only it was so easy it doesn't seem like a rescue.
I would change out the word belay for lower though in Daves description.
Release the block and lower........

Some food for thought. That only works if you have more rope length than you need for the drop. Which, for the scenario you stated; works fine. However, most of the folks that I know that rap single strand will carry near the same amount of rope as the longest drop; and then have a pull cord tied to it. Thus, a knot is in your way to lower.

So, the moral of the story is that if you are going to use a contingency anchor (like should be used in Class C canyons), then it's a different rope length strategy. That, and maybe the folks who only carry enough rope for the drop need to evaluate having a backup safety rope.

Scenarios are always a good thing to think about; and as Tom eluded to, even better to practice...

[oldno7]

You set the figure 8 block as a contingency anchor first off, release the contingency part of the block and belay from above

It's that easy.............
Couldn't take much more than a minute to complete the whole rescue, only it was so easy it doesn't seem like a rescue.
I would change out the word belay for lower though in Daves description.
Release the block and lower........

Some food for thought. That only works if you have more rope length than you need for the drop. Which, for the scenario you stated; works fine. However, most of the folks that I know that rap single strand will carry near the same amount of rope as the longest drop; and then have a pull cord tied to it. Thus, a knot is in your way to lower.

.

I prefer using 8mm lines to pull cords but thats another subject. If you have to connect 2 ropes together for a contingency anchor, start the knot(bend) On the rappel side of the biner, problem solved.
Sure would hate doing rescue work with a 6mm line.

[ratagonia]

So what's your opinion Tom on the % of competent canyoneers who have an adequate tool box? I said 10%. Shane thinks I'm crazy with that number. For the record, I'd be glad to be in the 90% needing more training.
What say you?

Shane is part of the 90%, and considers himself experienced. I go with the 10% / 90% breakdown.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Shane is part of the 90%, and considers himself experienced. I go with the 10% / 90% breakdown.

Nay.... I've never claimed any technical skills.... I agree that I'm just a hacker......

My deal is I think you "experienced" guys try and make this stuff way to complicated. It's just hiking, swimming and sliding down ropes. This is not some extreme sport.... even if most you "experienced" guys would like the rest of us to believe you are extreme....

:popcorn:

[oldno7]

Shane is part of the 90%, and considers himself experienced. I go with the 10% / 90% breakdown.

Nay.... I've never claimed any technical skills.... I agree that I'm just a hacker......

My deal is I think you "experienced" guys try and make this stuff way to complicated. It's just hiking, swimming and sliding down ropes. This is not some extreme sport.... :

Says the guy staring down into Pleides canyon, nuff said.

I'm not an "experienced" guy, but definitely a student of the game.

[mmac]

This is going to sound stupid, but training is expensive...

If the goal is to have people proficient with rope skills that will save lives, why are the classes hundreds of dollars per person? It seems to me that places like Zion or associations like the ACA should be subsidizing and proliferating these courses like crazy! Instructors need to be paid for their time, and equipment needs to be bought, but a profit margin isn't the way to make the outdoor experience safer.

How do we, the canyoneering community, get the training we should have at prices that encourage participation? Large groups generally get discounts, but how much do people really learn in large groups? The reason class sizes in elementary schools are an issue is because it's been proven that kids learn better with individual attention. Aren't we all just children + a few years?

I realize that the price of training should'nt outweigh the lives of my loved ones, friends, or self. I also have to face the fact that food, water, and electricity are more immediate life sustaining needs. (I'm a systems analyst, so yes - electricity is on the list :roll: without it I'd be job-less :mrgreen: )

- in that %90 category and wanting to improve
Mike

[twebb]

I will check out that book "On Rope" but I think having scenarios like this on a regular basis is a great idea to make people think about things that we might otherwise not be prepared for. Maybe some of the experienced guys can put up some scenarios based on real past experiences.

My idea for this scenario was to rap down and assist but the contingency anchor idea sounds easy, will have to read into that. Anyone care to share more information about how this would be done exactly?

[davehuth]

There are free workshops, heck Tom Jones used to run some in Salt Lake when he lived there (well sort of, you needed to join the area group for 15 bucks a year or something like that). There are bogley fests that I assume have some instruction going on. Some instruction happens at various other fests during the year. Keep your eyes out - or even organize one.

The structured classes are worth it and usually count toward ACA certification. It costs a lot to do these for a living... I had the pleasure of attending a North Wash Outfitter calss, very much worth the special attention and patience of the instructors. And, by the way, NWO trains you to rig an anchor the muenter style so that this scenrio is taken care of before the problem happens.

[oldno7]

Training is expensive, but it's Scott Cards fault!! No not really his, but kinda.
By the time we pay insurance and permit fee's to landowner's, the profit in a $200 day is greatly diminished. Add into that overhead with wear and tear on gear and the profit dwindles even more.
Just so you know--I'm not aware of anyone becoming wealthy from teaching any level of canyoneering classes.
I used to teack skiing in Park City in the early 80's. At that time private lessons were in the $150 a day range, if I recall(getting old)
Really it comes down to maybe a once in a lifetime fee, or at the worst case once every couple of years.
I'd view it as an investment if you really enjoy the sport. Wishing you had the knowledge when your in a severe bind in the canyon will make it appear cheap.
Harness--$100
Rope-- $200
rappel device--$40
Watching your loved one die in front of you because you have no idea how to help them----PRICELESS

[oldno7]

By the way---If your a member of the ACA--a $50 lifetime fee. You are entitled to Basic Skills Workshops(BSW) for a nominal $5 fee, any time you want to attend one. This is a very good building block to start moving into more technical aspects at a later time. I just taught one in Moab last weekend before a Rendezvous we had over there. There was one 2 weeks ago in SLC. I'm thinking they will be more available in the future.
I think Tom teaches on a daily basis around Zion also(ZAC), several avenues, all require some investment.
Jerid Hillhouse(Northwash Outfitters) in Bluff
Rick green in Escalante(Excursions of the Escalante)I think is the correct name

I offered my BSW in Moab to bogley members for free and got zero responses.

[trackrunner]

contingency anchor idea sounds easy, will have to read into that. Anyone care to share more information about how this would be done exactly?

http://www.canyoneering.net/content/index.php?categoryid=140&p2_articleid=80

If you don't know how to rig a munter or a mule learn it. Very useful. You can descend on a munter if you forget, drop your rap device. Went climbing with Bo Beck and when it came time to rap he couldn't find his device so he went off a munter.

[twebb]

Cool thanks. I know how to use the munter, used it today for a rappel actually. I just didn't know how to incorporate it into an anchor, will read this article thanks alot.

[Cirrus2000]

A book that I would strongly recommend is "Self-Rescue" by David J. Fasulo (http://www.amazon.com/Self-Rescue-Rock-Climb-David-Fasulo/dp/0934641978). One of the Falcon Guides. Excellent book, with great illustrations. It's a rock climbing book, but has a lot of transferable skills, knots, techniques. Pick it up, read it, then take it out to a crag, or a tree, or even a telephone pole. Try out the scenarios until you're comfortable with all the skills. (I say, even though I really need to do the same...)

[goofball]

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. The rope becomes twisted and with his weight on it he is stuck. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

it has been awhile but aren't the roost canyons ground level anchors or "over the lip" starts ? for example, i remember one rap in larry as from a hanging chokstone, w/ the rigging hanging below. so in those situations where you have some hard to access or ground level anchors w/ earth in the way of easy and smooth access how much harder does all this become ? also, is any additional force created on the anchor by adding another person to the rope ?

[oldno7]

Goof
I think your anchoring concerns are spot on. With a rap ring loaded and over the lip, your only option is a new anchor or if you feel good about your current anchor point use it again to rig new webbing. Someone else brought up this same concern earlier in this post, I think it was Brian.
If you need to perform any type of rescue, odds are you will at least double the load on your anchor.

[trackrunner]

Another good book is "Canyoneering" by David Black a certified instructor and guide.

http://www.overstock.com/Books-Movies-Music-Games/Canyoneering/2371955/product.html

[ratagonia]

This is going to sound stupid, but training is expensive...

If the goal is to have people proficient with rope skills that will save lives, why are the classes hundreds of dollars per person? It seems to me that places like Zion or associations like the ACA should be subsidizing and proliferating these courses like crazy! Instructors need to be paid for their time, and equipment needs to be bought, but a profit margin isn't the way to make the outdoor experience safer.

Mike

Well, you AND your sister are welcome to sign up for the Bog-fest Sunday Birch Hollow trip, even if it means extending the prior limits. We'll do some training there.

Tom :moses:

[sarahlizzy]

it has been awhile but aren't the roost canyons ground level anchors or "over the lip" starts ? for example, i remember one rap in larry as from a hanging chokstone, w/ the rigging hanging below. so in those situations where you have some hard to access or ground level anchors w/ earth in the way of easy and smooth access how much harder does all this become ? also, is any additional force created on the anchor by adding another person to the rope ?

I have a question. I've rappelled from ground level anchors, and feel reasonably happy doing that (even if the start hasn't always been elegant). Have never rapped from one that's over the edge though. How does one typically go about starting such a descent? I figure I'd use a safety tether until I was properly on belay, but I guess it still essentially includes downclimbing?

[ratagonia]

I have a question. I've rappelled from ground level anchors, and feel reasonably happy doing that (even if the start hasn't always been elegant). Have never rapped from one that's over the edge though. How does one typically go about starting such a descent? I figure I'd use a safety tether until I was properly on belay, but I guess it still essentially includes downclimbing?

Yes, it does, sometimes you can use the anchor sling to hold onto.

Probably the most important thing is to have a belay from below (a bottom belay) while you are doing the downclimb, so if you slip, you don't HAVE to grab the rope to keep you from going all the way.

The first person could be given a belay on a separate piece of rope, if you are not doing courtesy belays off of meat anchors.

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

Yes, it does, sometimes you can use the anchor sling to hold onto.

Probably the most important thing is to have a belay from below (a bottom belay) while you are doing the downclimb, so if you slip, you don't HAVE to grab the rope to keep you from going all the way.

The first person could be given a belay on a separate piece of rope, if you are not doing courtesy belays off of meat anchors.


Thanks. I think I'll try to get more proficiency rapping from ... kinder anchors for a while before trying too many of those!

Did you get my email, btw?

[nonot]

I would venture a guess that 90% of canyoneers are ill prepared for adversity in a canyon.

If you are talking Zion canyoneers I would totally agree.... if talking CP canyoneers as a whole I think your number is way high.... I've found those venturing to areas outside of Zion to be much better prepared...

I've always assumed this is the amusement park type attitude that surrounds Zion. Those who drive 50 miles down crappy dirt roads in the Roost, Escalante and Swell seem to have a much better grasp on reality....

Just my 2 cents.....

:cool2:

Nope, in my very un-official survey, I include all area's.
I think having a grasp on what your getting into, vs. knowing how to get out of the sticky wicket are 2 VERY different things.
This should probably be it's own thread, but----I'll throw out a quick one as I think a majority here rappel double strand.

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. The rope becomes twisted and with his weight on it he is stuck. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

Here's my solution assuming he's not on a contingency anchor, conscious, and emotionally under control:

According to your situation, the rappel is mostly free, but my buddy is not yet to the free part. That means he's less than 50 feet from me. I have at least 50 feet of webbing so we can pass gear. There is also at least 2 strands of 50 foot rope below the rappeller so we can make use of this rope as well.

In order to have him free his hands, I have our stuck rappeller tie knots in the two strands a few feet below his rappelling device. This way when we do get him free, he doesn't plummet to the bottom.

Using my webbing and/or one of the pieces of available rope below the rappeller, depending on the circumstances and how much extra is truly there, use this to transfer his weight onto a new anchor so he can free his now unweighted device. Haul on the secondary line only if necessary, but otherwise a rescue ascender and a prussic will do quite nicely, he only has to jug maybe 3 feet of the new secondary rope from the tag end to right himself and free his now unweighted rappelling device.

Once free, he locks off his rappelling device and unties the safety knots, we re-weight the original system and untie all the secondary stuff, he releases his lock off and resumes the rappel.

Next scenario: same situation except you are already on the ground. Your buddy is stuck above you. The stuck rappeller is not acting rationally and cannot be trusted to follow any instructions, furthermore, he has a knife and is threatening to cut the rope...which will likely make him fall to his death...what do you do?

[ratagonia]

[
Here's my solution assuming he's not on a contingency anchor, conscious, and emotionally under control:


as a maker-up of scenarios, let me assure you that the victim is not emotionally under control, and is unable to assist in their rescue. If they could right themselves, they would have already done so.

So sorry. Try again.

Tom :moses:

[pup]

I don't mean to change direction (but I will slightly); is there an advantage to using the Munter/Mule over a figure eight block as a contingency anchor?

Thanks...

[ratagonia]

I don't mean to change direction (but I will slightly); is there an advantage to using the Munter/Mule over a figure eight block as a contingency anchor?

Thanks...

Once you learn it well, the Munter Mule is something you will always have with you. The Fig 8 Block requires carrying a Figure 8 of some kind, and having enough to use at all the anchors set up (if you have multiple anchors set up at any one time).

Just that. (with a presumption that carabiners are at hand).

T :moses:

[davehuth]

So, is there any nice safe trick for the last guy down after everyone else has rapped off the munter? Or is it simply last guy at risk which is all I know...

[ratagonia]

So, is there any nice safe trick for the last guy down after everyone else has rapped off the munter? Or is it simply last guy at risk which is all I know...

If you really need a contingency anchor for the final person, could do a bottom-anchor-contingency for the last guy, but this would require 3X rope. If you're that worried about it, a guided rappel might be called for, which requires about the same resources.

Tom

[trackrunner]

So, is there any nice safe trick for the last guy down after everyone else has rapped off the munter? Or is it simply last guy at risk which is all I know...

usually the last guy down will replace the contingency anchor with a biner block or rap double strand. if still need a contingency anchor you can follow tom's advice.

[nonot]

[
Here's my solution assuming he's not on a contingency anchor, conscious, and emotionally under control:


as a maker-up of scenarios, let me assure you that the victim is not emotionally under control, and is unable to assist in their rescue. If they could right themselves, they would have already done so.

So sorry. Try again.

Tom :moses:

So much for the easy way out.

If they are completely unable to assist then you have to go down and get them, cut and lower, or haul them up...with no extra rope cut and lower is not recommended (more like cut and...fall?) and I'll be damned if I'm going to slide down on the weighted rope on a couple of prussics.

So haul them up. Two prussic cords, a handful of biners, and extra webbing is enough to rig a 3 or 5 to 1. Ascenders stay in the bag since it's doubled. Since I carry a lot of extra webbing I'll probably also back up the anchor to a nearby BFR or BFT first it at all possible. Dang and who wanted to sweat and toil on a weekend...

[ratagonia]

as a maker-up of scenarios, let me assure you that the victim is not emotionally under control, and is unable to assist in their rescue. If they could right themselves, they would have already done so.

So sorry. Try again.

Tom :moses:

So much for the easy way out.

If they are completely unable to assist then you have to go down and get them, cut and lower, or haul them up...with no extra rope cut and lower is not recommended (more like cut and...fall?) and I'll be damned if I'm going to slide down on the weighted rope on a couple of prussics.

So haul them up. Two prussic cords, a handful of biners, and extra webbing is enough to rig a 3 or 5 to 1. Ascenders stay in the bag since it's doubled. Since I carry a lot of extra webbing I'll probably also back up the anchor to a nearby BFR or BFT first it at all possible. Dang and who wanted to sweat and toil on a weekend...

Now can I interest you in carrying a rescue rope? Or perhaps you'd like to changeover to rapping single strand?

Tom :moses:

[nonot]

The problem is that some people were taught to rap double strand and that's all they'll do. You throw one strand down and block it with a clove hitch and you tell them to rap on that. For some reason they immediately believe you to be a lunatic and flat out refuse.

It would be good to teach everyone to rap single strand initially, but it seems everyone learns double strand first because of the extra friction. In the canyon isn't the place to hold a clinic since time is limited.

I think the real lesson here is know thy partner and their abilities and come prepared. If bringing people unable to self rescue then yes, bringing an extra rope and rescue gear is a smart move.

[moab mark]

[
Here's my solution assuming he's not on a contingency anchor, conscious, and emotionally under control:


as a maker-up of scenarios, let me assure you that the victim is not emotionally under control, and is unable to assist in their rescue. If they could right themselves, they would have already done so.

So sorry. Try again.

Tom :moses:

So much for the easy way out.

If they are completely unable to assist then you have to go down and get them, cut and lower, or haul them up...with no extra rope cut and lower is not recommended (more like cut and...fall?) and I'll be damned if I'm going to slide down on the weighted rope on a couple of prussics.

So haul them up. Two prussic cords, a handful of biners, and extra webbing is enough to rig a 3 or 5 to 1. Ascenders stay in the bag since it's doubled. Since I carry a lot of extra webbing I'll probably also back up the anchor to a nearby BFR or BFT first it at all possible. Dang and who wanted to sweat and toil on a weekend...

Have never done it, has anyone descended a rope using mechanical ascenders to do a rescue? Or just to go down a loaded rope?
Mark

[ratagonia]

So much for the easy way out.

If they are completely unable to assist then you have to go down and get them, cut and lower, or haul them up...with no extra rope cut and lower is not recommended (more like cut and...fall?) and I'll be damned if I'm going to slide down on the weighted rope on a couple of prussics.

So haul them up. Two prussic cords, a handful of biners, and extra webbing is enough to rig a 3 or 5 to 1. Ascenders stay in the bag since it's doubled. Since I carry a lot of extra webbing I'll probably also back up the anchor to a nearby BFR or BFT first it at all possible. Dang and who wanted to sweat and toil on a weekend...

Have never done it, has anyone descended a rope using mechanical ascenders to do a rescue? Or just to go down a loaded rope?
Mark

One of our guides has done it, when he let his rescue rope get ahead of him, and one of the rappellers caught her hair in the Pirana.

Tom

[ratagonia]

The problem is that some people were taught to rap double strand and that's all they'll do. You throw one strand down and block it with a clove hitch and you tell them to rap on that. For some reason they immediately believe you to be a lunatic and flat out refuse.

It would be good to teach everyone to rap single strand initially, but it seems everyone learns double strand first because of the extra friction. In the canyon isn't the place to hold a clinic since time is limited.

I think the real lesson here is know thy partner and their abilities and come prepared. If bringing people unable to self rescue then yes, bringing an extra rope and rescue gear is a smart move.

Then carry a rescue rope.

Yes, it is difficult to teach old dogs new tricks. Look at the hold outs like BDC and BB!!!@$%#$%#!! Oh, and Shane. If you have insufficient gravitas to convert people to single rope rappels, then your obligation is to have a rescue rope, and stay at the back where it can be useful, AND train in how to use it.

T

[moab mark]

When you do Like Odno 7 and I did in moab and get your rope stuck. Kurt whipped out his rescue rope was able to tie it to the end of our rope that was only as long as the rappel and then change the pull angle enough we got the rope to break loose. When you can only walk a few feet away from the wall with your rope your options are limited. Without that additional rope it would of been a long day.

Since then I haul at least 40' extra with me.

Mark

[Iceaxe]

Yes, it is difficult to teach old dogs new tricks. Look at the hold outs like BDC and BB!!!@$%#$%#!! Oh, and Shane.

I always enjoy reading how if you are not doing it Tom's way you are doing it the wrong way....

.......there is more than one way to skin a cat....

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Yes, it is difficult to teach old dogs new tricks. Look at the hold outs like BDC and BB!!!@$%#$%#!! Oh, and Shane.

I always enjoy reading how if you are not doing it Tom's way you are doing it the wrong way....

.......there is more than one way to skin a cat....

:popcorn:

For those of you eating cat, I suggest getting Brian Cabe's book "So many cats..."

:popcorn:




Never said you were doing it "wrong", friend Shane. But other people on this forum recognize that if their friends get in trouble on the rope, they would like to be in a position to do something about it.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

But other people on this forum recognize that if their friends get in trouble on the rope, they would like to be in a position to do something about it.

By do something about it..... I assume you mean in addition to laughing and taking pictures?!?!?

:five:

Because I'll be honest with ya.... if it's not life threatening that's the first thing I'm going to do if it's one of my friends, wife, kids....

:popcorn: