Disasters are a part of Zion National Park's history

[Iceaxe]

Disasters are a part of Zion National Park's history
The Salt Lake Tribune

The history of Zion National Park is replete with disasters, both natural and human-caused. Among the most notable:

Construction of the 1.1-mile tunnel in Zion began in Nov. 11 1927 and claimed two lives by the time it was dedicated on July 4, 1930, said park spokesman Ron Terry. One worker was crushed on an unknown date when pinned by a sandstone boulder against a piece of machinery and on July 1, 1928 another man was killed by breathing in a combination of dust, sand and dynamite fumes.

In September 1961, 26 people were caught in a flash flood in the Zion Narrows; five of them were killed.

On the morning of Sept. 2, 1992, the park was jolted by a 5.9 earthquake that cracked some foundations, knocked down power lines in the park and destroyed three houses in the neighboring city of Springdale. Landslides from the quake also temporarily closed the park entrance before the Labor Day weekend when debris blocked state Route 9.

In 1993, two adult scout leaders died when they became trapped in Zion's Kolob Canyon during a hike through frigid waters.

A 12-year-old California boy slipped on some algae in a small streamlet on the Emerald Pools trail in the spring of 1997. He fell on his stomach and began sliding toward a 100-foot cliff, where he fell to his death. Three other young men plunged to their deaths in the same location in 1968, 1983 and 1984.

While hiking the Narrows in 1998, two people were killed in a flash flood. In 2001, a flash flood washed away a 10-year-old boy on the Canyon Overlook trail .

Backcountry ranger Ray O'Neil said two to three people die every year in the park, most from falls from the towering sandstone cliffs. Among the deadliest is the park's most popular hike at Angel's landing, where four have people died in the past 10 years. Among them was a 53-year-old Missouri man who fell 1,000 feet to his death in 2007. In 2006, a Las Vegas woman fell 1,300 feet from the popular trail and in 2004, a scout fell to his death while climbing down to a dangerous spot to carve his name.

Climbing has also claimed victims, such as the California man who was rappelling in Heaps canyon in 2007 when his rappel system failed. A 38-year-old Provo man also was killed while rappelling during a solo climb of Angel's landing.

http://www.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_12513410

[RedMan]

Very dangerous place. We should close it off, put a nice big fence around it.

[ratagonia]

Disasters are a part of Zion National Park's history
The Salt Lake Tribune

The history of Zion National Park is replete with disasters, both natural and human-caused. Among the most notable:

While hiking the Narrows in 1998, two people were killed in a flash flood.

http://www.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_12513410

Yeah, nice mangling on the English Language. "Disaster"? Ha.

Two lads from California hiked into the Narrows to take pictures of the Anticipated Flash Flood. Bodies found several days later. Hardly a disaster!

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I saved the original newspaper stories from several of these "Disasters" if anyone is interested in reading them.

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/flash_zion.htm

Enjoy
:popcorn:

[Deathcricket]

Meh... Out of 2.5 millions people people visiting a place 2 or 3 die? I bet more people die in cars traveling to Zion than once inside it. And like the emperor is saying. I bet a lot of these deaths are "Darwin incidents" aka "people being stooopid".

Wasn't the girl who fell off angel's landing pushed by her husband? Maybe I'm thinking os someone else.

[James_B_Wads2000]

In 1993, two adult scout leaders died when they became trapped in Zion's Kolob Canyon during a hike through frigid waters.

This was my scout troop. I wasn

[ratagonia]

[quote= The Salt Lake Tribune]In 1993, two adult scout leaders died when they became trapped in Zion's Kolob Canyon during a hike through frigid waters.

This was my scout troop. I wasn

[James_B_Wads2000]

Yeah, classic Darwin incident on that one. Perhaps I be crass, but at least the Reaper tagged the adult leaders, and not the kids.

Yeah it is easier for you to be crass because you don

[Deathcricket]

Was this the one where the dude tossed his pack into a swirling vortex of doom connected to a rope. He then couldn't pull it out by hand so decided to jump in and try to retrieve it himself?

That's a classic and definitely qualifies as a Darwin move.

Edit : Found it on Ice's awesome site

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/kolob1.htm


From the rim of the falls, Fleischer tested the force of the whirlpool at its base. He tied a rope to his pack and tossed the pack into the pool. The pack got sucked under and could not be pulled free. Fleischer decided he had to free the pack. He intended to swim the pack to shore where it could serve as a safety anchor for the others. He leaped in, and just when it seemed he had everything under control, the pack slipped and the current sucked him under. There was a long moment as the others stared down into the churning torrent. Fleischer never reappear.

:ne_nau:

[Iceaxe]

Edit : Found it on Ice's awesome site

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/kolob1.htm

Because of that article I've had 5 of the kids (who are now adults) and the copter pilot contact me and tell me their personal stories of that disaster. Also taked with a couple of other SAR guys.

Very interesting stuff....

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

[quote=James_B_Wads2000]

It

[ratagonia]

[quote=James_B_Wads2000]
Yeah it is easier for you to be crass because you don

[ratagonia]

[quote=James_B_Wads2000]
It

[Sombeech]

Which was worse, seeing your dad die in front of you, or, a few years later figuring out that your dad was not brave, valiant or visionary, but was in fact a complete idiot?

ouch

[James_B_Wads2000]

I said

[RedMan]

Please provide me with more details so that I can shit on their memories. Gawd get over yourself. :roll:


James


I with James on this one. This was an awful tragedy and whatever you think happened sitting in your armchair you have no right to piss on the memory of these men. Its a true shame you are completely incapable of relating a "lessons learned" scenario without being an asshat.

[Sombeech]

Imagine not belonging to a forum full of "professionals" to give you exact details on what to do in certain situations.

Imagine trying to be safe, evaluating the situation, and doing what you thought was the best decision in a tense situation.

And then you make a mistake and die, and the "professionals" call you a dipshit and don't give a rat's ass if your children ever read about it.

Sorry guys, the dude wasn't as awesome as some of you are, and made a mistake. I classify him as "not a dipshit".

[ratagonia]

Imagine not belonging to a forum full of "professionals" to give you exact details on what to do in certain situations.

Imagine trying to be safe, evaluating the situation, and doing what you thought was the best decision in a tense situation.

And then you make a mistake and die, and the "professionals" call you a dipshit and don't give a rat's ass if your children ever read about it.

Sorry guys, the dude wasn't as awesome as some of you are, and made a mistake. I classify him as "not a dipshit".

Read the story, do Kolob. You will understand, the guy was a danger to himself and others. And a bully. If it is still available, the extensive story on High Country News is really good. He broke rule #2. Dipshit.

T

[Bo_Beck]

Disasters are a part of Zion National Park's history
The Salt Lake Tribune

The history of Zion National Park is replete with disasters, both natural and human-caused. Among the most notable:

While hiking the Narrows in 1998, two people were killed in a flash flood.

http://www.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_12513410

Yeah, nice mangling on the English Language. "Disaster"? Ha.

Two lads from California hiked into the Narrows to take pictures of the Anticipated Flash Flood. Bodies found several days later. Hardly a disaster!

Tom

I'm guessing that if looked at in the context that it may have been or had disastrous affects for their families and friends, it might be considered a disaster? Just a thought?

[James_B_Wads2000]

I with James on this one. Its a true shame you are completely incapable of relating a "lessons learned" scenario without being an asshat.

I think you are dead in the water on this one Tom. You must be pretty high up on your horse if you can get RedMan to agree with me. I am know that RedMan hates me so much that he would punch me in the face if we ever met. He siding with me speaks volumes to your douche-ness.

For your great achievement as a Bogley asshat, you will be officially added to the list:
Link (http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=175923#175923)


James

[stefan]

Imagine not belonging to a forum full of "professionals" to give you exact details on what to do in certain situations.

Imagine trying to be safe, evaluating the situation, and doing what you thought was the best decision in a tense situation.

And then you make a mistake and die, and the "professionals" call you a dipshit and don't give a rat's ass if your children ever read about it.

Sorry guys, the dude wasn't as awesome as some of you are, and made a mistake. I classify him as "not a dipshit".

Read the story, do Kolob. You will understand, the guy was a danger to himself and others. And a bully. If it is still available, the extensive story on High Country News is really good. He broke rule #2. Dipshit.

T

High Country News - Whose fault? A Utah canyon turns deadly
http://www.hcn.org/issues/14/409

[Deathcricket]

High Country News - Whose fault? A Utah canyon turns deadly
http://www.hcn.org/issues/14/409

I found that article extremely interesting. Thanks for posting it. Some stuff I learned that i didn't know before...


Among related cases, in Yosemite National Park, a man successfully sued to require the Park Service to post a sign on the barren granite peak, Half Dome. The sign states the obvious, warning hikers not to stand on the peak during lightning storms.

In Alaska's Denali National Park, already this year, 26 climbers have required rescue. The Park Service is considering charging a new $200-per-climber fee to offset the $10,000 cost of each rescue. Park officials are also considering designating a "no rescue" zone in Denali: Climbers who cross the line are on their own.


In January, the survivors and relatives of the dead men filed 13 claims seeking a $24,556,813 payment for damages, injuries or death under the Federal Tort Claims Act, which says the federal government can in certain cases be held liable.

Several church members wrote letters to the editor to the Salt Lake Tribune, criticizing the suit and saying the church stresses free will and personal responsibility.

And some stuff I did know.


From the lip of the falls, Fleischer tested the force of the whirlpool at its base, tying a rope to his pack and throwing the pack into the pool. The pack got sucked under and could not be pulled free. Fleischer decided he had to try anyway.

/armchair quarterback time

Fact 1. A person just died in their party due to forces generated from earlier whirlpools.
Fact 2. He tossed his pack into a whirlpool and could not pull it free no matter how hard he tried.
Fact 3. Dude jumps into a whirlpool to grab a pack he can't physically pull out.

Conclusion : Darwin Award. Any person with self preservation skills would know that jumping into a whirlpool that generates forces strong enough to permanently trap a backpack is foolish.

I do understand the "well you weren't there" argument. But we have 4-5 kids and an adult telling the same story so I think it's safe to gather what happened without being there. I'm with The Emperor on this one.

[Iceaxe]

For those who have not done Kolob let me provide a little inside info I learned. I read the Kolob stories long before I did the canyon so I was excited to see what the situation really was like.... and here is my prospective on the canyon, yours might differ....

You hike in for several miles through the forest, you eventually reach this nice stream and follow it down until the bottom falls out of the world. At this point the nice little stream becomes a raging monster as is thunders and crashes off the narrow canyon walls.... depending on the stream flow you say one of two things.... Cool or Oh Shit!

If you say Cool that means things look fun and you continue downstream.

If you say Oh Shit! that means you turn around and live to play anther day. And have a long ass hike back out of the canyon.

When the scouts hit the top of the slot they all said Oh Shit! and than continued on because one member of the group said it was no big deal.... and no one else in the group had any experience or knowledge to disagree.....

Anyhoo.... that is just my opinion of Kolob... I'm not picking sides, just trying to help those who have never done Kolob understand what things look like before committing.

You are all free to continue your friendly food fight....
:popcorn:

[RedMan]

Imagine not belonging to a forum full of "professionals" to give you exact details on what to do in certain situations.

Imagine trying to be safe, evaluating the situation, and doing what you thought was the best decision in a tense situation.

And then you make a mistake and die, and the "professionals" call you a dipshit and don't give a rat's ass if your children ever read about it.

Sorry guys, the dude wasn't as awesome as some of you are, and made a mistake. I classify him as "not a dipshit".

Read the story, do Kolob. You will understand, the guy was a danger to himself and others. And a bully. If it is still available, the extensive story on High Country News is really good. He broke rule #2. Dipshit.

T

Thanks for casting your asshatness into concrete Tom.

[DiscGo]

Since the church group had canceled its hike twice before due to high water, Turville suspects there was an inclination to press ahead rather than turn back a third time.

I had never heard this part of the story, and I also did not know that the two men died at separate places. I found that very interesting and can see that they were more at fault that I had originally thought.


I do not have the same connection to this trip as James, but I can tell you guys that I was in Zion when this happened and my scout troop was the first to hike the Narrows after it was re-opened (they closed it for a couple of days while they searched for the bodies). I know that many of you are literally experts and you know what you are talking about, so I won't disagree with you. But I will say that I just don't see a reason to bad mouth these guys who have already been through enough. The whole park had a more somber feel and I still remember the sorrow I felt for them while being there.

[nat]

Imagine not belonging to a forum full of "professionals" to give you exact details on what to do in certain situations.

Imagine trying to be safe, evaluating the situation, and doing what you thought was the best decision in a tense situation.

And then you make a mistake and die, and the "professionals" call you a dipshit and don't give a rat's ass if your children ever read about it.

Sorry guys, the dude wasn't as awesome as some of you are, and made a mistake. I classify him as "not a dipshit".

Read the story, do Kolob. You will understand, the guy was a danger to himself and others. And a bully. If it is still available, the extensive story on High Country News is really good. He broke rule #2. Dipshit.

T

I've followed this story from the beginning, and just reread the High Country News story. It is a good article, although I didn't see anything in it about the guy being a bully. I do believe strongly in personal responsibility, and they certainly made some big mistakes. Because of that, I was against the families law suite. But, to spit on his grave, and publicly, repeatedly call him a dipshit? Whatever..., I guess if it makes you feel good.

The ironic thing is, that if Tom were to get himself killed in Kolob tomorrow, most people on this forum would consider it a disaster, even if it was his own fault.

Nat

[oldno7]

I can only guess Tom is trying to burn a vivid picture in everyones mind to prove a point. While I don't agree with his delivery, if the message is "are you prepared" for whatever comes your way in a canyon? I'm with him.
When canyoneering goes well, it is very easy and we all have a great time. When it goes bad, it is in places that if you are to survive you must rely on your own self(group) rescue techniques.
I would venture a guess that 90% of canyoneers are ill prepared for adversity in a canyon.
So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken. If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point.

And as a side note--I was in the group who got caught in the neon keeper early in 08. One of our group was extremely hypothermic and lifeless in the pool. We had the training to set up haul systems and pull him from the pool.
All turned out good, but this had potential to be similar to the Kolob incident.
We got monday morning quarterbacked to death. Luckily we were able to learn from this experience and become better prepared. We made mistakes, but overcame them with prior training.

[trackrunner]

I can only guess Tom is trying to burn a vivid picture in everyones mind to prove a point. While I don't agree with his delivery, if the message is "are you prepared" for whatever comes your way in a canyon? I'm with him.
When canyoneering goes well, it is very easy and we all have a great time. When it goes bad, it is in places that if you are to survive you must rely on your own self(group) rescue techniques.
I would venture a guess that 90% of canyoneers are ill prepared for adversity in a canyon.
So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken. If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point.

And as a side note--I was in the group who got caught in the neon keeper early in 08. One of our group was extremely hypothermic and lifeless in the pool. We had the training to set up haul systems and pull him from the pool.
All turned out good, but this had potential to be similar to the Kolob incident.
We got monday morning quarterbacked to death. Luckily we were able to learn from this experience and become better prepared. We made mistakes, but overcame them with prior training.

QFE great post

[Iceaxe]

I would venture a guess that 90% of canyoneers are ill prepared for adversity in a canyon.

If you are talking Zion canyoneers I would totally agree.... if talking CP canyoneers as a whole I think your number is way high.... I've found those venturing to areas outside of Zion to be much better prepared...

I've always assumed this is the amusement park type attitude that surrounds Zion. Those who drive 50 miles down crappy dirt roads in the Roost, Escalante and Swell seem to have a much better grasp on reality....

Just my 2 cents.....

:cool2:

[Sombeech]

OK, let me clarify my point, just in case some day there actually will be honor in arguing on the internet.


A few weeks ago I spent 5 days on the Yampa River, there were 25 of us including Alex and Scott.

There was a "classified dipshit" in a paddleboat who was always shouting orders, even though he wasn't in charge. He had minimal experience, and didn't follow directions. He was to blame for the boat flipping on a very small rapid the first day.

I hopped in their boat to help them out on a pretty big rapid. He was still up to his same tricks, shouting orders and doing the opposite of what he should have done. Fortunately we made it through.

You may know that you've pretty much got to have your shit together on these rivers too, as there are more deaths per year than in canyoneering.

Here's the video of that dude, with me filming. He's in the red. Watch him dip his paddle into the water about 4 inches.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciUnN58kRlM


So if this guy would have flipped in a different rapid and died, we all would have acknowledged that he was very inexperienced, didn't follow orders, and yadda yadda, but I don't think I would have insulted him after death.

[RedMan]

I can only guess Tom is trying to burn a vivid picture in everyones mind to prove a point. While I don't agree with his delivery, if the message is "are you prepared" for whatever comes your way in a canyon?

Really? You go this from Toms post? Wow, you read a lot more into it than I did. Perhaps he should have stated something to that effect.

I got "These guys got what they deserved, they were dipshits"
How you got more than that I'll never know.



So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken.

Hmm I do not see that in there at all.


If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point.

The point was to make Tom look like he's very smart and capable and that sort of thing could not happen to him through demeaning the victims and their families. Its typical of people who just have to prop themselves up even if it involves another persons tragedy. Its very sad and Tom needs some help.


The ironic thing is, that if Tom were to get himself killed in Kolob tomorrow, most people on this forum would consider it a disaster, even if it was his own fault.

What about it DeathCricket? Would you be in here telling us all that Tom was an idiot and got what he deserved and nominating him for a Darwin award?

I'd consider it a tragedy, perhaps TRY to learn something from it. But I would NOT be publicly lambasting him, calling him names and generally soiling his memory. That is a sign of NO CLASS.

If I had some real expertise on the topic that lead to his death I would try to share that in a constructive way rather than simply calling him names, posting conjecture about how his children would feel finding out he was a loser that got what he deserved and generally pissing on his memory.

What an asshat.

[oldno7]

I can only guess Tom is trying to burn a vivid picture in everyones mind to prove a point. While I don't agree with his delivery, if the message is "are you prepared" for whatever comes your way in a canyon?

Really? You go this from Toms post? Wow, you read a lot more into it than I did. Perhaps he should have stated something to that effect.

I got "These guys got what they deserved, they were dipshits"
How you got more than that I'll never know.



So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken.

Hmm I do not see that in there at all.


If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point.

The point was to make Tom look like he's very smart and capable and that sort of thing could not happen to him through demeaning the victims and their families. Its typical of people who just have to prop themselves up even if it involves another persons tragedy. Its very sad and Tom needs some help.


The ironic thing is, that if Tom were to get himself killed in Kolob tomorrow, most people on this forum would consider it a disaster, even if it was his own fault.

What about it DeathCricket? Would you be in here telling us all that Tom was an idiot and got what he deserved and nominating him for a Darwin award?

I'd consider it a tragedy, perhaps TRY to learn something from it. But I would NOT be publicly lambasting him, calling him names and generally soiling his memory. That is a sign of NO CLASS.

If I had some real expertise on the topic that lead to his death I would try to share that in a constructive way rather than simply calling him names, posting conjecture about how his children would feel finding out he was a loser that got what he deserved and generally pissing on his memory.

What an asshat.
Redman----see that first quote of mine you put up^^^^^^^"I can only guess"
Then how bout quoting all that is pertinent to my stance:

"So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken. If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point."

You see when I write "somehow". It denotes uncertainty on my part.
Are we getting any clearer?

[RedMan]

I can only guess Tom is trying to burn a vivid picture in everyones mind to prove a point. While I don't agree with his delivery, if the message is "are you prepared" for whatever comes your way in a canyon?

Really? You go this from Toms post? Wow, you read a lot more into it than I did. Perhaps he should have stated something to that effect.

I got "These guys got what they deserved, they were dipshits"
How you got more than that I'll never know.



So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken.

Hmm I do not see that in there at all.


If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point.

The point was to make Tom look like he's very smart and capable and that sort of thing could not happen to him through demeaning the victims and their families. Its typical of people who just have to prop themselves up even if it involves another persons tragedy. Its very sad and Tom needs some help.


The ironic thing is, that if Tom were to get himself killed in Kolob tomorrow, most people on this forum would consider it a disaster, even if it was his own fault.

What about it DeathCricket? Would you be in here telling us all that Tom was an idiot and got what he deserved and nominating him for a Darwin award?

I'd consider it a tragedy, perhaps TRY to learn something from it. But I would NOT be publicly lambasting him, calling him names and generally soiling his memory. That is a sign of NO CLASS.

If I had some real expertise on the topic that lead to his death I would try to share that in a constructive way rather than simply calling him names, posting conjecture about how his children would feel finding out he was a loser that got what he deserved and generally pissing on his memory.

What an asshat.
Redman----see that first quote of mine you put up^^^^^^^"I can only guess"
Then how bout quoting all that is pertinent to my stance:

"So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken. If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point."

You see when I write "somehow". It denotes uncertainty on my part.
Are we getting any clearer?

Oldno7,
My apologies, I was using your post to make my point, not find fault with you or your post. I did understand your meaning.

Sorry about that.

[oldno7]

No blood no foul :2thumbs:

I'm just trying to see the logic in Tom's posting also. I don't believe he's a bad guy. I wish I had more in depth details of the actual event, so I could learn from fact's rather than speculation. Tragedy's such as these need to benefit the community at large so mistakes aren't repeated. I think in so doing it makes the event more of a learning aid rather than a tragedy.
If any of these were my family it would make me rest easier knowing others benefited from the information and learned from the event.

[James_B_Wads2000]

Conclusion : Darwin Award. Any person with self preservation skills would know that jumping into a whirlpool that generates forces strong enough to permanently trap a backpack is foolish.

Not surprised you find you on the wrong side of this argument. Your compassion for your fellow humans is legendary. :roll: But by all means keep digging

[Deathcricket]

What about it DeathCricket? Would you be in here telling us all that Tom was an idiot and got what he deserved and nominating him for a Darwin award?

Hey now! usually you and I see more eye to eye on issues, I'm a little surprised. I wouldn't go so far to say he "deserved it" because that indicates I wanted it to happen to him. But my empathy is completely on the poor scouts who "innocently" followed this dumbass on the trip. And zero tolerance, even anger is directed towards him for putting the kids in this situation. Clear? I completely understand Rat's position on this. maybe he's a little harsh but the truth of the matter is this guy was a complete idiot and did a completely stupid thing that ended his life.

To answer your question, I think you have to rate each instance by itself. God forbid another accident happens. Tom doesn't strike me as someone who would jump into a whirlpool to retrieve a stuck backback. But if it was reported by 5 witnesses to the event that he did something really stupid, I would call him a dumbass too. I think he would even expect it.

How about I give another example. Last Thursday I was rock climbing at the Chuckwalla trailhead. I saw a dude there climbing without a harness. These are 30-40 foot drops and rated 5.10-5.13's. He was climbing the 5.11's and doing really good I admit. He didn't have much trouble at all scaling these vertical faces. But I told him to his face he was a dumbass and why not clip in and use a harness/rope? He said "I climb 5.13's all the time and this is too frigging easy for me". I said simply "One slip and you're dead" to which he replied "then I just won't slip". So if I came on this board and posted in the climbing section "tragic accident, some dude splats on rocks in St george climbing without ropes or harness". I wouldn't be very sympathetic I guess. To other people that would be a huge tradgedy. they would be thinking "oh well the rock must have given away" or "his hands must have been sweaty". I hold the person accountable for their actions, period. That's totally different than accidentally not tieing a knot correct, an anchor breaking, equipment malfunction or many other problems that arise. The blame lies completely on this idiot and no one else.

Just to be clear, are we debating what the guy did was stupid based on the facts presented? Or are we argueing that the stories the scouts and surviving adult aren't accurate and there is perhaps another explanation? I'm just having trouble believing we are argueing that a guy who jumped into a whirlpool during flooded condidtions after tossing his pack in and understanding how powerful the current was... Wasn't an incredibly stupid thing to do. Especially given the fact someone had just died not an hour earlier..

[James_B_Wads2000]

the truth of the matter is this guy was a complete idiot and did a completely stupid thing that ended his life.

Cricket

[nat]

Just to be clear, are we debating what the guy did was stupid based on the facts presented? Or are we argueing that the stories the scouts and surviving adult aren't accurate and there is perhaps another explanation? I'm just having trouble believing we are argueing that a guy who jumped into a whirlpool during flooded condidtions after tossing his pack in and understanding how powerful the current was... Wasn't an incredibly stupid thing to do. Especially given the fact someone had just died not an hour earlier..

I guess what some of us have a problem with is when someone makes a mistake in the outdoors, and pays for it with his life, others jump in with public statements like "dipshit", "idiot!", "what a dumbass!", and "he sure deserves the Darwin award!". My guess is that a big majority of us on this forum have made similar mistakes and were just lucky. If my son died in a car accident while not wearing a seat belt, and some asshat posted a message saying "what a fool!", I wouldn't have a very high opinion such a person.

Nat

[RedMan]

If I ever die while on one of my adventures I sure hope nobody here makes a post about it.

[Scott P]

I found that very interesting and can see that they were more at fault that I had originally thought.

I hope to not get involved with this pissing match and maybe it best to let sleeping dogs lie, but I personally know that the leaders of the trip were warned about dangerous conditions in the canyon before they went.

One of my Father's friends (I believe it was Dale Green?) was ask by the leader about information on the canyon. When told that the canyon was in too dangerous condition and to take take scouts through, the leader was rather abrasive and said something to the effect that "I didn't ask if I should go or not; I ask for infomation on the canyon" or something to that effect.

Although, I don't agree with slamming the dead, it is not fair to claim that the leaders were not fairly warned as some articles on the subject try to claim.

PS, I do know that Tom knows at least one of the people who testified on the case involving the lawsuit, so I would guess he does know more about the incident than people on this thread might think, but I won't go there.

Still, there is little use in beating up someone who is already dead and paid the ultimate price. We can all learn from mistakes, either our own or others. We all make them.

[Sombeech]

I guess there will always be the division.

The same could be said about Aron Ralston, although he didn't die. While most who read his story hail him as a "brave hero", there are the few who call him an idiot for going alone.

Since he's still alive, I'll call him an idiot. :haha:

[RedMan]

I guess there will always be the division.

The same could be said about Aron Ralston, although he didn't die. While most who read his story hail him as a "brave hero", there are the few who call him an idiot for going alone.

Since he's still alive, I'll call him an idiot. :haha:

X10

[ratagonia]

Disasters are a part of Zion National Park's history
The Salt Lake Tribune

The history of Zion National Park is replete with disasters, both natural and human-caused. Among the most notable:

While hiking the Narrows in 1998, two people were killed in a flash flood.

http://www.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_12513410

Yeah, nice mangling on the English Language. "Disaster"? Ha.

Two lads from California hiked into the Narrows to take pictures of the Anticipated Flash Flood. Bodies found several days later. Hardly a disaster!

Tom

I'm guessing that if looked at in the context that it may have been or had disastrous affects for their families and friends, it might be considered a disaster? Just a thought?

A "personal disaster", for the families, perhaps.

Perhaps this is a disastrous thread, where feelings are hurt and the hurt expressed, disastrously.

Here's the distinction I make: When the people who die were not responsible for the deaths (and more than a few people), then that is a disaster. 9/11, The Iraq War, Katrina, The Titanic - lots of people kilt, and the people kilt, not their fault.

In both the above cases (hiking up the Narrows to take pictures of the flash flood; unprepared idiots heading down Kolob with boyscouts in tow, in unfavorable conditions, and getting THEMSELVES killed), those conditions are not met. Personal disasters for their families? No doubt. But HARDLY a big enough event to be labeled a "disaster" in the general sense of the word.



Noun
disaster (plural disasters)
An unexpected natural or man-made catastrophe of substantial extent causing significant physical damage or destruction, loss of life or sometimes permanent change to the natural environment.
An unforeseen event causing great loss, upset or unpleasantness of whatever kind.
"The downpour and gales turned the wedding into a disaster."

Certainly, having your wedding reception inconvenienced by being rained on is a disaster for your vision of the perfect wedding, but hardly worth reporting AS A DISASTER in the Salt Lake Tribune.

(Have I dug myself a deep enough hole, yet?)

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

I know that many of you are literally experts and you know what you are talking about, so I won't disagree with you. But I will say that I just don't see a reason to bad mouth these guys who have already been through enough. The whole park had a more somber feel and I still remember the sorrow I felt for them while being there.

The point is, if YOU do really stupid things, at some point you will die.

(And then I'll make fun of you on Bogley? No, that's just a side benefit).

These guys did really stupid things, and they died. Y'alls wanna sweep it under the rug?, ignore it? fine. Call the guy a saint because he had a family and did good things in the community? I'm not disagreeing that the guys might have been wonderful people. But it did not protect them from basic physics. In Canyoneering, if you do stupid things, you will die. Might get away with it one, two, ten, a hundred times, but you're rolling the dice. And eventually, you'll get snake eyes.

Tom

[RedMan]

Y'alls wanna sweep it under the rug?, ignore it?

No Tom, we just don't think its appropriate to make personal attacks on the dead. Apparently you have no problem with that.

[ratagonia]

So if this guy would have flipped in a different rapid and died, we all would have acknowledged that he was very inexperienced, didn't follow orders, and yadda yadda, but I don't think I would have insulted him after death.

And, if he had gotten several other people killed?

Killing yourself doesn't make you a dipshit, it's taking someone with you that does.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Y'alls wanna sweep it under the rug?, ignore it?

No Tom, we just don't think its appropriate to make personal attacks on the dead. Apparently you have no problem with that.

Correct, I don't. Because they're DEAD, and it's been more than 10 years, so in the unlikely case that members of the family are reading this, they should either A. have stopped reading quite some time ago; or B. have gotten over it to the point that this does not bother them.

And YES, these are statements of morality, and yes, your morality may be different.

If the soloist on the Chukwalla wall falls off, OK, that's sad, and he was an idiot for soloing above his competence. It is a tragedy for his family. If he falls off and lands on someone else and kills them too - then he's a dipshit.

Tom :moses: (Moral clarity, but at what cost...)

[RedMan]

your morality may be different.

to say the least.

[Scott Card]

I too believe that I understand what Tom is trying to say, although bluntly, cold and perhaps over the top rhetorically. But sometimes facts are that way. I get angry when people put others in danger. As an example, when on the road nothing makes me more angry than when I am driving and someone does something accidently yet stupid that puts me and my family in danger of losing our lives. I saw a girl texting, eating and applying makeup all at the same time a few months ago. A tragedy if she dies. But I would be very angry if she also took some innocent person out in the process. Her actions would have been stupid, idiotic and irresponsible. She may be a fine person but that doesn't change facts. I deal with pain and hurt every day with my clients who have been hurt by nice people who make dumb mistakes. I have represented the families of victims of a wrongful (negligently caused) death. It is hard. It is ugly. And it hurts.

Back to the subject at hand, I appreciate the blunt reminders. It makes me think twice and hopefully makes me a better canyon leader of young men. These reminders make me reevaluate my plans, take a second look at my preparations, reevaluate the risks in the canyons, etc. I personally think the Kolob thing could be called a disaster, a disaster in judgment, leadership and training. I feel for the families, I feel for the scouts, I ache for their memories, particularly for the young man who watched his dad die. Words cannot describe how I might feel or how badly I feel for this boy, now man. It is truly horrible what happened in Kolob but it doesn't change the disastrous facts. The Kolob disaster seems to be much more than the generic "human error". Am I name calling? No, but these leaders made stupid choices and got people killed. Those are facts and they may hurt to hear or say but facts are facts. OK flame away. My helmet is on. I am sure I will regret entering this spitting match.

[Deathcricket]

I guess there will always be the division.

The same could be said about Aron Ralston, although he didn't die. While most who read his story hail him as a "brave hero", there are the few who call him an idiot for going alone.

Since he's still alive, I'll call him an idiot. :haha:

Ahh good man! I think perhaps you just hit the "nail on the head" with this issue. So if the "stupid actions" result in death its disrespectful to analyze said persons actions and make a judgement, but if the person survives it's then perfectly ok?

I'm going to have to analyze this new bit of information. Doesn't make sense (to me) but I'm getting the feeling that's the heart of the matter.

[Felicia]

I too believe that I understand what Tom is trying to say, although bluntly, cold and perhaps over the top rhetorically. But sometimes facts are that way.

Back to the subject at hand, I appreciate the blunt reminders. It makes me think twice and hopefully makes me a better canyon leader of young men. .

Scott, I believe that you have, very eloquently, hit a majority of the talking points that are important. I applaud Tom

[Jaxx]

The guy obviously made bad decisions putting others at risk.
I wonder if there was shock/hypothermia affecting his thought process. Who would go into a raging pothole to retrieve a backpack after they had just watched a friend die from that same scenario? Not to make excuses but it seems like you would have an altered state of mind after watching someone die and then having to continue in the canyon. Sad and tragic for sure. I hope I am never in that situation.

[ratagonia]

The guy obviously made bad decisions putting others at risk.
I wonder if there was shock/hypothermia affecting his thought process. Who would go into a raging pothole to retrieve a backpack after they had just watched a friend die from that same scenario? Not to make excuses but it seems like you would have an altered state of mind after watching someone die and then having to continue in the canyon. Sad and tragic for sure. I hope I am never in that situation.

The big decision was, when you hike down to the canyon and you see the stream raging, do you rappel in? Like Ice, I had imagined a rappel sequence down the wall and then finding that the water was too big. Nada. You stand in the stream before the commitment point. Your first rap is next to a big, loud waterfall. That's where you make the decision. Dry, warm, fully functioning.

Which is why the awfulness of this situation. Yes, they had hiked down to it twice before and NOT done it. The leader had been through the canyon before. So, he should have known. Everyone there would have known that going in was a very bad idea. But they went anyway.

T :moses:

*correction 8/26/2016 - they did not hike down to it twice before, they postponed the trip because water was too high in The Narrows for them to get the Narrows permit for their hike out. The only person who had been through the canyon before was Fleischer, and exactly once. So he was the ONLY person in a position to know what was ahead.

[Jaxx]

I don't disagree that they should have never been in there.
I was pointing out that possibly he was in a state of shock when the decision to go into the water to get his backpack out after all that lead up to that point. Mabey the hypothermia/shock wasn't an issue and he was just a horrible decision maker all around?

[ratagonia]

I too believe that I understand what Tom is trying to say, although bluntly, cold and perhaps over the top rhetorically.

This is Bogley, the one place I get to let the rapier wit rape... uh, go off and make a fool of me...

I am provocateur...

T :moses:

[Deathcricket]

My guess is that a big majority of us on this forum have made similar mistakes and were just lucky. If my son died in a car accident while not wearing a seat belt, and some asshat posted a message saying "what a fool!", I wouldn't have a very high opinion such a person.

Nat

This isn't the same level as "forgetting" to wear a seatbelt though, would you agree? This is the equivalent of your son standing on the roof of the car and falling off going 50 miles per hour. Intentionally putting oneself in a hazardous situation and knowing the danger involved.

Your point about offending the families of the victim is well put though. I just can't fathom the "majority" of people on this forum have made similar mistakes. I've done some stuff that others would consider extremely stupid. My first post in this forum 2 years ago was of me doing some "stunt rappelling" and I was bitched out left an right about it. So I would consider myself a risk taker for sure compared to a lot of people here. But I never would look into a whirlpool and think I could swim it. If he had jumped in and the current was "deceptively strong" and overpowered him? Ok he gets a pass. I've swam in the ocean and rip currents are amazing and very sneaky. But he tossed his pack in and it sucked so hard he couldn't pull it out! I suspect even others in the group probably helped him try to pull it out. There is no way he jumped in that pool to retrieve the pack and didn't know how strong the current was.

[James_B_Wads2000]

But he tossed his pack in and it sucked so hard he couldn't pull it out! I suspect even others in the group probably helped him try to pull it out. There is no way he jumped in that pool to retrieve the pack and didn't know how strong the current was.

Again amazing insight for someone who wasn

[Deathcricket]

[quote=James_B_Wads2000]
Again amazing insight for someone who wasn

[R]

I guess there will always be the division.

The same could be said about Aron Ralston, although he didn't die. While most who read his story hail him as a "brave hero", there are the few who call him an idiot for going alone.

Since he's still alive, I'll call him an idiot. :haha:

Sidebar: does anyone else here refer to their Leatherman as their "Ralston Tool"?

[Iceaxe]

Shhhh... The adults are talking right now honey.
:nono:

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[oldno7]

I guess there will always be the division.

The same could be said about Aron Ralston, although he didn't die. While most who read his story hail him as a "brave hero", there are the few who call him an idiot for going alone.

Since he's still alive, I'll call him an idiot. :haha:

Sidebar: does anyone else here refer to their Leatherman as their "Ralston Tool"?

No--but occasionally going through canyons when you come to ckockstones, they have been referred to as Ralstones.

[stefan]

No--but occasionally going through canyons when you come to ckockstones, they have been referred to as Ralstones.

i believe ram coined that one

[Iceaxe]

I know a lot of folks now call the down Bluejohn out Horseshoe the Ralston Route.

[seagorn]

I have to admit that in privite converstations I have been harsh on the persons responsible when reciting the story of the scout leaders who led their troop into this disaster. Yes, it WAS a disaster, because it was unforseen. Semantics, whatever. We have all entered into climbs, canyons, whitewater rafting, etc when our little voice was screaming "NO!" Most times we come out unscathed, some times we have a fiasco, some times a near-death experience. In the Kolob disaster, poor judgement cost lives. A tragedy. My condolences to the families.

I agree that we can and should learn from tragedies such as this. I always read the details in any accident in the backcountry and learn from them. This way, their deaths may not have been in vain.

Speaking ill of the dead is something I would never do on a forum, though. Name calling is just plain insensitive. It is just inflammatory and doesn't help us learn from others mistakes. Let it go already!

[nat]

My guess is that a big majority of us on this forum have made similar mistakes and were just lucky. If my son died in a car accident while not wearing a seat belt, and some asshat posted a message saying "what a fool!", I wouldn't have a very high opinion such a person.

Nat

This isn't the same level as "forgetting" to wear a seatbelt though, would you agree? This is the equivalent of your son standing on the roof of the car and falling off going 50 miles per hour. Intentionally putting oneself in a hazardous situation and knowing the danger involved.

Your point about offending the families of the victim is well put though. I just can't fathom the "majority" of people on this forum have made similar mistakes. I've done some stuff that others would consider extremely stupid. My first post in this forum 2 years ago was of me doing some "stunt rappelling" and I was bitched out left an right about it. So I would consider myself a risk taker for sure compared to a lot of people here. But I never would look into a whirlpool and think I could swim it. If he had jumped in and the current was "deceptively strong" and overpowered him? Ok he gets a pass. I've swam in the ocean and rip currents are amazing and very sneaky. But he tossed his pack in and it sucked so hard he couldn't pull it out! I suspect even others in the group probably helped him try to pull it out. There is no way he jumped in that pool to retrieve the pack and didn't know how strong the current was.

Clearly they made a big mistake, and it was their (the scout leaders') responsibility. But as obvious a mistake as standing on the roof of a car going 50mph? I don't know, I wasn't there and I'm not sure what the creek looked like at that time. Probably not as deliberately reckless. Also realize, this was 1993 and everybody was less experienced with canyons. There were no public forums and very little public beta public beta on canyons or technical canyoneering. By 2009, we have learned a lot from an accumulation of others experiences and mistakes as well as our own.

I probably overstated it in saying that a big majority have made similar mistakes, but many of has have made stupid mistakes canyoneering that could easily have lead to "disaster". I know I have.

In any case, I'm hardly defending their decision, or saying the incident shouldn't be honestly analyzed (although it has been analyzed for some 15 years, and I'm not sure if I have learned anything new about the incident on this thread). It just seems to me that all of the name calling ("dipshit" etc...) is gratuitous and I still can't see what purpose it might serve.

Nat

[trackrunner]

Sidebar: does anyone else here refer to their Leatherman as their "Ralston Tool"?

It was actually a cheap leatherman knock off. Every time I see a cheap knock off I think how am I going to cut my arm off with this.

[Iceaxe]

Also realize, this was 1993 and everybody was less experienced with canyons. There were no public forums and very little public beta on canyons or technical canyoneering.

I think Nat nailed it.... the biggest problem was the scouts didn't have enough experience or information to know they were in trouble.

:cool2:

[Deathcricket]

Clearly they made a big mistake, and it was their (the scout leaders') responsibility. But as obvious a mistake as standing on the roof of a car going 50mph? I don't know, I wasn't there and I'm not sure what the creek looked like at that time. Probably not as deliberately reckless. Also realize, this was 1993 and everybody was less experienced with canyons. There were no public forums and very little public beta public beta on canyons or technical canyoneering. By 2009, we have learned a lot from an accumulation of others experiences and mistakes as well as our own.

I probably overstated it in saying that a big majority have made similar mistakes, but many of has have made stupid mistakes canyoneering that could easily have lead to "disaster". I know I have.

In any case, I'm hardly defending their decision, or saying the incident shouldn't be honestly analyzed (although it has been analyzed for some 15 years, and I'm not sure if I have learned anything new about the incident on this thread). It just seems to me that all of the name calling ("dipshit" etc...) is gratuitous and I still can't see what purpose it might serve.

Nat

You know, I'm going to have to be forced to agree. This is a great argument point. Just because this was 1993 and they really had no beta and easily available information about the dangers.... I guess it's kind of unfair for me to bitch "they should have known better". Because really, where would they gather that information? I will subtract my Darwin Award and agree they just made a really really really bad judgement call. I guess since I've seen people drown I have a healthy fear of the water and forces it generates, so that could be affecting my judgement also. *sigh* I just hate being wrong but will admit there is a lot of truth in what you are saying. Excellent post!

[ratagonia]

Also realize, this was 1993 and everybody was less experienced with canyons. There were no public forums and very little public beta on canyons or technical canyoneering.

I think Nat nailed it.... the biggest problem was the scouts didn't have enough experience or information to know they were in trouble.

:cool2:

The LEADER had been down Kolob before. Those of us who have been down Kolob know that it is not a very big canyon, and not all that much water yields impassable conditions.

So I disagree with your assessment that the LEADER did not have sufficient information to make a good decision. The scouts - the kids had no way to make a decision other than to trust their leaders.

Tom

[James_B_Wads2000]

In any case, I'm hardly defending their decision, or saying the incident shouldn't be honestly analyzed (although it has been analyzed for some 15 years, and I'm not sure if I have learned anything new about the incident on this thread). It just seems to me that all of the name calling ("dipshit" etc...) is gratuitous and I still can't see what purpose it might serve.

Nat

+1


James

[goofball]

In any case, I'm hardly defending their decision, or saying the incident shouldn't be honestly analyzed (although it has been analyzed for some 15 years, and I'm not sure if I have learned anything new about the incident on this thread). It just seems to me that all of the name calling ("dipshit" etc...) is gratuitous and I still can't see what purpose it might serve.

Nat

it serves the purpose of showing the quality of tom jones' character. how did you get so full of hate and vitriol ? daddy not love you ? mommy love you too much ? string of failed relationships leave you bitter ? you a borderline personality ? trying to get all the mileage you can from that "emperor" image you foster ? maybe try doting husband, patient father, selfless philanthropist. those would be something worth defending if they would ever fit you. oh... wow. baseless personal attacks and name calling IS fun ! thanks tommy !

you just don't get it tom, and you never will.

[RedMan]

In any case, I'm hardly defending their decision, or saying the incident shouldn't be honestly analyzed (although it has been analyzed for some 15 years, and I'm not sure if I have learned anything new about the incident on this thread). It just seems to me that all of the name calling ("dipshit" etc...) is gratuitous and I still can't see what purpose it might serve.

Nat

it serves the purpose of showing the quality of tom jones' character. how did you get so full of hate and vitriol ? daddy not love you ? mommy love you too much ? string of failed relationships leave you bitter ? you a borderline personality ? trying to get all the mileage you can from that "emperor" image you foster ? maybe try doting husband, patient father, selfless philanthropist. those would be something worth defending if they would ever fit you. oh... wow. baseless personal attacks and name calling IS fun ! thanks tommy !

you just don't get it tom, and you never will.

+1

[ratagonia]

it serves the purpose of showing the quality of tom jones' character. how did you get so full of hate and vitriol ? daddy not love you ? mommy love you too much ? string of failed relationships leave you bitter ? you a borderline personality ? trying to get all the mileage you can from that "emperor" image you foster ? maybe try doting husband, patient father, selfless philanthropist. those would be something worth defending if they would ever fit you. oh... wow. baseless personal attacks and name calling IS fun ! thanks tommy !

you just don't get it tom, and you never will.

+1

Uoh. Tough Crowd. :ne_nau:

T

[ratagonia]

No Tom, we just don't think its appropriate to make personal attacks on the dead. Apparently you have no problem with that.

Interesting reading this thread 7 years later.

Yes, perhaps "dip****" was too strong a word. And clearly the responsibility for this tragedy lies with one person. (Read the book).

I don't like where this thread started - my behavior was poor. But remember what a mudpit Bogley was in those days. Looks also like several of my posts were hacked.

But back to RedMan's statement -

response: oh, poor Osama Bin Laden. such a mis-guided soul. It is such a shame that people are still saying bad things about him. He's dead, can't we all be nice to him?

Now, Mr. Fleischer was no monster, like Bin Laden, just an ordinary human being with not very good judgment and an inability to admit error in a timely fashion. Heck, it only takes me 7 years to admit error...

:moses:

[Scott P]

Looks also like several of my posts were hacked.

No, it was some glitch when Bogley switched over to a new version some years ago. After the switch, with any older post that had an apostrophe, the remaining text wouldn't show up after the apostrophe.