View Full Version : Chubby Scouts (& Scoutmasters) forced to stay home.
A new Boy Scouts of America (BSA) national policy that goes into effect Jan. 1, 2010, will preclude Scouts considered overweight according to a standard Body Mass Index chart from participating in high adventure activities that take them more than 30 minutes away from emergency medical help.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12522444?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com
That means Russel is out:
Sombeech
06-05-2009, 05:46 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3160/2383552107_9353346760.jpg
Scott Card
06-05-2009, 05:51 PM
They would go and announce this on National Donut day.... :frustrated:
KapitanSparrow
06-05-2009, 06:47 PM
There's always the band camp :roflol:
http://l.yimg.com/eb/ymv/us/img/hv/photo/movie_pix/universal_pictures/american_pie_presents__band_camp/_group_photos/rachel_veltri1.jpg
Wasatch Rebel
06-05-2009, 08:29 PM
BMI is an archaic way of determining physical fitness. Heck, there are a lot of skinny guys who are in far worse shape than some football player type. If they want to do this, they should go by body fat percentage, heart rate on a stress test, and a few other things as better indicators of overall health.
Last Child
06-06-2009, 04:48 AM
BSA needs a No Fat Dudes bumper sticker.
DiscGo
06-06-2009, 06:54 AM
I really find this interesting. Isn't part of the reasoning behind scouting to get the boys into the woods and off the couch? It seems like the fat will only get fatter and the boy scouts will just have fewer scouts. Or you will have less options of where the troops can go because of the fatty\fatties and the boys will only resent him\them for it. I'm really curious to see how this plays out.
Scott Card
06-06-2009, 08:44 AM
This is a risk analysis / liability issue, plain and simple for the BSA. I think the BSA is tired of out of shape leaders kicking the bucket, rescues due to exhaustion...etc. I do think the BMI index is bunk as far as being a standard, however. I am over the limit but can out-hike almost all my scouts/ventures with ease. I could stand to lose a couple of pounds but my range for my height is 148 to 195 lbs. My hunch is that if I were 148 I would be a significant risk. On the bright side I would have a role in a prisoner of war film. At 195 lbs my wife told me I looked too skinny. That was a couple of years ago when I was pushing for new life insurance at the best rates. So at 205 I flunk but feel great and hike and canyoneer all over the place. As for the scouts, funny thing is that I have assisted as many bean pole kids as I have heavy kids. The measure ought to be fitness for the kids and fitness and common sense, and outdoor training/experience for the leaders.
One more point, this only applies to the high adventure type activities. Not the organized scout camps that you drive to. Problem is that the high adventure activities are the funnest and best experiences for the boys imho. I wonder how/if they will enforce this? As a guideline the BMI is fine. As a rule? Arbitrary and not fine. My hunch is that Karl Malone in his prime would fail as would many other low body fat athletes who have muscle on their bones.
uintahiker
06-06-2009, 08:59 AM
I think that the 50 milers are very often poorly planned. Hiking 50 miles and over a few passes is very different to a leader than it is to a 12 year old or an out of shape 12 year old.
Furthermore- many 12 year olds don't know what to pack. And/or their moms get involved and burden them down with a bunch of stuff they don't need. (you don't need 2 changes of clothes and pajamas for a 50 miler).
Scout troops would be make a 20 mile hike a pre-requisite for those doing high adventure or 50 milers.
Scout Master
06-06-2009, 11:47 AM
Around 15 years ago a fellow Scoutmaster was turned away from Philmont Scout reservation and not allowed to hike with his troop because he was overweight. Point being this is not really a new policy just being pushed down a notch or two. The fact is BSA has very little influence on what a troop does when it is not done on their property. The BSA owns and operates a dozen or so High adventure bases around the country where they drastically overcharge troops to do the same thing they can do in other places if they have qualified and experienced leaders. It will be scouts and leaders attending these High adventure bases that will be the most affected. The rest of us will just have to choose weather we are healthy enough to meet the guidelines and what to do with boys who are overweight.
According to the new Health form I cannot weigh over 226 pounds. Well I weighed in this morning at 230 pounds. So I have to decide if I want to conform to this policy or just say home.
I
DiscGo
06-06-2009, 11:56 AM
I have been a scout leader for years and I usually have enough trouble getting enough leadership to accompany me and my boys. I of course believe this rule to be ridiculous and if the Boy Scouts start asking me for the weight and height of my boys are trip reports, I am going to be pretty upset.
[quote=Scout Master]Around 15 years ago a fellow Scoutmaster was turned away from Philmont Scout reservation and not allowed to hike with his troop because he was overweight. Point being this is not really a new policy just being pushed down a notch or two. The fact is BSA has very little influence on what a troop does when it is not done on their property. The BSA owns and operates a dozen or so High adventure bases around the country where they drastically overcharge troops to do the same thing they can do in other places if they have qualified and experienced leaders. It will be scouts and leaders attending these High adventure bases that will be the most affected. The rest of us will just have to choose weather we are healthy enough to meet the guidelines and what to do with boys who are overweight.
According to the new Health form I cannot weigh over 226 pounds. Well I weighed in this morning at 230 pounds. So I have to decide if I want to conform to this policy or just say home.
I
blueeyes
06-06-2009, 12:13 PM
:friday: <One of these guys is drinking root beer. See you on the trail!
Would that be the one left standing? :lol8:
Wasatch Rebel
06-06-2009, 12:22 PM
Well, if it begins being part of the Tour Permit, all of us guys who are a little muscular, or a tad overweight will either be forced to lie, or do without the Tour Permit. I'm no longer a Scout leader, but I still resent being told I'm not fit when I've done fitness tests that put me in the top 5 percent of 20 year olds, and I'm 49! And I wouldn't want overweight kids to be blamed for groups of Scouts not being able to go to a fun camp. Still, the Boy Scouts has always been a fitness oriented organization and should remain so--just not by BMI means of testing it.
I have been a scout leader for years and I usually have enough trouble getting enough leadership to accompany me and my boys. I of course believe this rule to be ridiculous and if the Boy Scouts start asking me for the weight and height of my boys are trip reports, I am going to be pretty upset.
It's on the new health forms. Required. I have a hefty boy in my troop and I have to sit him and his obese mom down and tell him I am worried about his weight. We are planning a overnight backpack and by the test hike we went on a couple weeks ago, he won't make it. We talked about having his dad commit to coming along if his son wants to go. That way we don't have to be babysitting him the whole time. Who knows.
RedMan
06-08-2009, 01:00 PM
A while ago, when I was a boyscout, the generally theory we operated under was "helping others", not excluding them.
DiscGo
06-08-2009, 01:14 PM
Jaxx-
That sounds like a conversation that I'm glad that I do not have to have. Good luck!
A while ago, when I was a boyscout, the generally theory we operated under was "helping others", not excluding them.
x2 That is how I view it too Redman!
A while ago, when I was a boyscout, the generally theory we operated under was "helping others", not excluding them.
Not exactly applicable here with the weight issue but doesn
Iceaxe
06-08-2009, 03:34 PM
Speaking of chubby boy scouts......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZpn4tzdMGM
[quote=Don]Not exactly applicable here with the weight issue but doesn
[quote=Jaxx][quote=Don]Not exactly applicable here with the weight issue but doesn
I wasn't singling out LDS sponsored scouts I meant the organization as a whole. The BSA requires the belief in a higher power of its leaders and scouts. This would and does exclude agnostics and atheists. I wonder if the BSA would recognize the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a religious belief?
Oh my bad i misunderstood. Wouldn't hurt to write a letter. :roflol:
Salmoholic
06-08-2009, 04:24 PM
As an active Scouter I agree we need to look out for the health and welfare of all participants. The org. has a risk management planning group that has a stellar record of implementing policies that keep all involved safe. The number one killer of scouts was drowning. Since the implementation of safety aflaot and safe swim defense the number one killer has been heart attacks of adult leaders. If followed the new policy will hopefully reduce the number of deaths.
Cirrus2000
06-08-2009, 04:26 PM
The BSA requires the belief in a higher power of its leaders and scouts. This would and does exclude agnostics and atheists.
While I appreciate the (non-religious) things that the BSA does, this is why I can't be involved, and in fact, could never even tacitly condone my son taking part. Every Scout activity I see posted is a virtual slap in the face to me and my family. So 'inclusion', my ass. :bootyshake:
I'm not judgin', just sayin'. :blahblah:
Back on topic, BMI sucks as a true fitness indicator.
RedMan
06-08-2009, 04:29 PM
So after they have been kicked out of scouting they can go have their heart attack on someone elses turf.
I like it a lot, its a much better plan than trying to help them get in shape so they won't die at all.
Old Man: "Sonny can you help me across the street?"
Scout: "I'd like but your too fat and we can't risk being associated with you."
My fond memories of scouting are dying quickly.
RedMan
06-08-2009, 04:45 PM
[quote=RedMan]A while ago, when I was a boyscout, the generally theory we operated under was "helping others", not excluding them.
Not exactly applicable here with the weight issue but doesn
Wasatch Rebel
06-08-2009, 04:59 PM
Scouting has religious requirements. And the line "to God and my country" is in the Scout Oath. Whether or not individual troops etc., enforce those...it sounds like some do and some don't. I think most do, but anybody would've been welcome in our Scout Troop when I was a kid, and also, when I was a leader. They may not have been able to complete Scouting requirements, but they would certainly have been allowed to join us and have fun--as long as they followed the rules of good conduct just like all the other kids were expected to do.
Okay, how about this: Require scout candidates to climb a 14er. If they make it, they're in! :cripple:
Wasatch Rebel
06-09-2009, 09:13 PM
Okay, how about this: Require scout candidates to climb a 14er. If they make it, they're in! :cripple:
Now you're talkin'. :stud:
Ih8grvty
06-11-2009, 11:32 AM
The BSA requires the belief in a higher power of its leaders and scouts. This would and does exclude agnostics and atheists.
While I appreciate the (non-religious) things that the BSA does, this is why I can't be involved, and in fact, could never even tacitly condone my son taking part. Every Scout activity I see posted is a virtual slap in the face to me and my family. So 'inclusion', my ass. :bootyshake:
I'm not judgin', just sayin'. :blahblah:
Back on topic, BMI sucks as a true fitness indicator.
Thats what kept me out of scouts as a kid.
I went for a bit but all the god talk made me want to not go back.
Now I 'm older and have no regrets about not being a scout.
I had thought though, there are tons of kids in similar situations. Either them or their parents keep them from scouting for differences over god.
Why the hell is there not a similar group that offers the same experiences for kids with out the god aspect?
Im not saying teach kids to not believe, just leave that part out of it and get them outdoors and teach them a few things.
I was lucky enough to have a dad that was heavy into all of it and I still got to do all the stuff, just not in groups with my friends.
What the hell would it take to start a nonreligious scout troop or group?
Alot of mormons around me, work, home, friends, ect. alot of them involved in scouts. Iv been asked many times to teach the kids about knots and help on some minor rock climbing and rappelling trips they did.
If not for the prayer at the beginning and end of it what Id seen on those days would of had nothing to do with anything but having some fun and learning a few things outdoors.
I can see alot of good that they do for youth, and adults as well. Too bad that people that do not follow a god are not accepted into it.
Wild One
06-11-2009, 01:10 PM
interesting discussion here.
Let me preface this by saying that I absolutely hated scouts as a youngster because I could do funner outdoor things with my friends and familly without all the BSA redtape. Today, however, I am an assistant scout master and we have an obese boy in our troop. It has been a MAJOR challenge to change several trips, plans and activities due to his obesity. Two examples were from trips we did last year and one of them cost almost the ENTIRE troop a loss in rank advancement within their goal timeframes.
Ex1: We took the boys on a 10 mile over-night backpack trip last spring. (Please keep in mind, this is flat Ohio trails, not climbing through the Uintas and gaining 4,000 ft of elevation) We ended up having to change our plans while on the trail because this kid couldn't make it 4 miles, with NO PACK. We had distributed his pack weight among the leaders to try to give him a little better chance because we knew it would be tough. He caused every boy who was on that trip to miss their 10 mile mark by almost 6 miles because he couldn't make it. Fair to him? Yes, because we gave him every possible opportunity for success. (before you say anything about leaving him home, try telling a 13year old kid he can't go hike with his friends because he is fat. It isn't easy). Fair to the group? No way!
Ex2: Virtually the same results as #1, but in kayaks. He caused the entire troop to lag behind, miss their goal and get home 2 hours late (parents LOVE that!).
My point is that we catered to one individual at the expense of 10+ others who deserved to accomplish their goals, but couldn't. Yes, the other boys hopefully learned the importance of compassion and selflessnes, but it cost them something they had really worked toward accomplishing.
I certainly understand the need to include everyone, but sometimes that inclusion can retard the progress of others.
Scout Master
06-11-2009, 06:37 PM
The Boy Scouts of America has been around for 99 years. It will turn 100 on Feb 10th next year. It was established to Teach Character Citizenship and physical fitness to young men in an out door setting. For all of those 99 years there has always been someone trying to change Scouting to meet his or her personal agenda. Some changes have been made but the core elements have stood the tests of time and remained the same. Scouting is not for everyone. It is for young men who believe in doing their duty to God and their country. To criticize the BSA and say they should change this or that is just like saying The Mormons should put crosses on their churches. Or the Catholics should change some aspect of their religion. Or maybe the American legion should hold anti war protests. The point is Scouting is for those who believe in doing their duty to God and their country. There are other youth organizations out there. The campfire kids, The YMCA, The boys and girls clubs of America just to name a few. I suggest you go volunteer at one of these groups I am sure they would love to have more help. I have been associated with the BSA for most of 30 years now, I certainly do not agree with everything they do. But I do believe that those boys who choose to live by The Scout and Law and have good leaders who are willing to lead them, will have excellent opportunities to learn Character and Citizenship and physical fitness in an out door setting, and have a lot of fun too.
See you on the Trail
tumblingwings
06-12-2009, 06:36 AM
As a young man I was never a scout. But I did do some activities with the scouts. I guess what pushed me away was feeling that the LDS religion was forced down our throats.
But maybe the BSA needs to come up with a physical fitness test, like some of the military branches have in place. Then put it in the guide lines that if you can not pass this test you can not go on this activity. That way it is not based on how over or under weight a person or young man is, but how phyically fit a young man or person is at the time of the activity. That way if this is something that is put into the scouting guide lines and the parents and thier obese or under developed young man has to sign the papers and acknowledge that this rule is inforced. It puts it on the parents and obese or under developed young man to get into shape so that he can go on these types of activities.
Deathcricket
06-12-2009, 07:29 AM
interesting discussion here.
Let me preface this by saying that I absolutely hated scouts as a youngster because I could do funner outdoor things with my friends and familly without all the BSA redtape. Today, however, I am an assistant scout master and we have an obese boy in our troop. It has been a MAJOR challenge to change several trips, plans and activities due to his obesity. Two examples were from trips we did last year and one of them cost almost the ENTIRE troop a loss in rank advancement within their goal timeframes.
Ex1: We took the boys on a 10 mile over-night backpack trip last spring. (Please keep in mind, this is flat Ohio trails, not climbing through the Uintas and gaining 4,000 ft of elevation) We ended up having to change our plans while on the trail because this kid couldn't make it 4 miles, with NO PACK. We had distributed his pack weight among the leaders to try to give him a little better chance because we knew it would be tough. He caused every boy who was on that trip to miss their 10 mile mark by almost 6 miles because he couldn't make it. Fair to him? Yes, because we gave him every possible opportunity for success. (before you say anything about leaving him home, try telling a 13year old kid he can't go hike with his friends because he is fat. It isn't easy). Fair to the group? No way!
Ex2: Virtually the same results as #1, but in kayaks. He caused the entire troop to lag behind, miss their goal and get home 2 hours late (parents LOVE that!).
My point is that we catered to one individual at the expense of 10+ others who deserved to accomplish their goals, but couldn't. Yes, the other boys hopefully learned the importance of compassion and selflessnes, but it cost them something they had really worked toward accomplishing.
I certainly understand the need to include everyone, but sometimes that inclusion can retard the progress of others.
That breaks my heart reading this. If I was a kid in this troop I wouldn't be learning compassion and selflessness. I would be making up songs..
Come on phatie phatie four by four
you can make it, just a little more!
There's a twinkie at the end
it just around another bend!
Anyways what tumblewings said.... Give em a physical fitness test. Even if it's something simple like "running a 12 minute mile around the track" or something. Encourage fattie to get in shape, but don't hold everyone back because of him.
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