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View Full Version : First canyoneering trip..ZION for 7 days!!



cookiecutter
05-31-2009, 12:55 AM
I originated the post to slot canyon or not to slot canyon, and with everyones help we were able to have an awesome week!

First off, BIG thanks to Tom Jones for his help in getting our supplies to us quickly and for his book that saved our butts plenty of times.

There is so much to write, but I'll just give a brief overview of each...

We arrived late saturday night and set up camp on some BLM ground just of the Kolob Terrace road. We dubbed this spot, "Fort Kolob" We woke up at 4:30 on Sunday and headed to the park where we were 3rd in line at the permit window and we picked up Subway permits. We went to church in Springdale and drove around getting used to what would be home for the next week.

Monday:
Wake up 4:30 - get Pine Creek permit. After that we came back, made a nice breakfast of eggs hashbrowns and bacon (breakfast was the only thing that kept us motivated to east, sorry but we got REALLY sick of freeze dried dinner). We started the hike into Subway round 9:30 aided by Tom's book and found it very easy to find our way there. The semi tech section was a lot fun and got our excitement up for the week to come. we hitched it back to the car, we got picked up by a friendly park ranger who was cool about driving us. We found Subway to be extremely easy and was great to be able to just 'take in' Zion.

Tuesday:
Wake up 4:30 - get keyhole permits. Once obtained we came back to yet another hearty breakfast (breakfast was really good, did I mention that?). We started into Pine Creek at about 9:30 at quickly met another group. They were cool and thought we'd be faster then them so they let us pass em and off we went. We loved every bit of this canyon. Just soooo cool, and compared to Subway it was slot canyon Heaven for us. By now our blood for canyons is pumpin purty good. We all enjoyed the cathedral rap where we were able to do a little swimming at the bottom. (this was probably the only canyon we were ever cold in, though we were still not too bad. we did this one without wet suits). On the 2nd to last rap we met a husband and wife duo that were cool peeps, they let us use the rope they had set up so we returned the favor and set up the final rap for them. Boy did we love that free fall! wow, by now I'm thinkin in my head "i have friend on a house boat in lake powell for their senior trip...what loosers!" (alright not loosers, but i think you get the idea). At the bottom this due we met up with said "hey if you parked at the top we'll give ya a ride up" as cool as we could trying to not sound new to all this we said, we'd LOVE THAT! Now again, this due was a real sweet pair. My group of 4 goofed around swimming in the pools and taking pictures (we told the husband and wife not to wait up if we weren't at the car when they got there) but when we climbed up to the road there they were, sitting in the hot sun as happy as can be to help us out. I wish I knew their names, great people, and a great day!

Wend:
Wake up at 4:30 - attempt to get mystery permits..failed :(. so we picked up Behunin. Today was our 'rest day' so part of our activities included moving camp. We camped at a much closer Mosquito Cove, we dubed it "camp disappointment" (there were no girls there). We were pooped from little sleep and long hikes to we planed keyhole for today for a nice short one. Keyhole was a huge surprise to us. Tom gave it 2 stars so we expected something sweet, but a little lower sweet; a sweet minus if you will. But what we got was totally different, this canyon was our favorite slot canyon of the week. We did wear wet suites and were thankful for them when all was done. We were in water just about the entire time, including about a 100 ft swim. What we loved so much about this canyon wasn't the tech parts, the raps aren't anything to brag about, but all that water in tiny narrows was like a mountain dew at 2 a.m. on friday night, man we really dug it. We took our time, paying special attention to enjoy it with much safety, and got through it in maybe 3 hours. Back at the car we met a european couple, the wife started talkin to us about some scholarship to some university, i dont know..?? she was border line loony, but she took a picture of us with our wet suites half off lookin manly, so we thought "hey, she is cool people."

Thursday
Wake up and get to permit window at 4, but yet again we only attempted to get mystery, we were beat out by some 3:30 dude. He smirked at us, not sure if I really cared for the guy but he did beat us there so we have nothing to complain about. Anyways, we picked up spry instead. Now for Behunin we got off to a later start, we met the trail head bout 11 i think it was. I wish we would have started earlier and caught some more shade, but it wasn't too hot so all was well. The hike in was killer, long and hot, but we found the canyon to be well worth the hike! Behunin was just awesome. So much different than the others we had done. Much much bigger, bigger raps, bigger hike, and bigger egos after we completed it. Those 100 ft + raps were just breath taking, we let ourselves get lost inside her. After the 5th rap we heard thunder (we had been watching weather reports closely and didn't expect a storm) so we sped up our pace a little but were put at ease when the storm blew away. On the rap just before the last one we had to clean up the anchor, the webbing was all messed up, so it should be real nice for those attempting the canyon in the upcoming days. We were just taken back by how sweet it all was, and then we hit the final rap. In his book Tom said it was mostly a free fall, but we looked over the edge and couldn't see the bottom so we weren't sure exactly what to expect. So we got all hooked up, tossed the ropes, and off went our first guy. All was going smooth until he dropped off the edge to where we couldn't see him and we heard a giant "Oh SH**...!!" Now you see, we're all LDS so we dont swear unless A: somethin really bad happens (this is what we all thought happened) or B: you drop over the edge to look at the most amazing free fall of your life (this happened to be the case in this particular situation. "You can't believe this!" soon followed the rare cursing. Now he did run into a little trouble, the ropes had somehow made a little jumble, but we were prepared to take care of such a situation, so all was fixed in relative ease. Man I wont forget hanging there, looking far below at people hiking to the pools with Big Brother Heaps close by thinking "this is the stuff you see in movies, no way should I be able to have this REALLY happen to me". It was just so neat for all of us.

Friday:
Our plan was to wake up and get the permit window at 2 with 2 group members on guard and 2 sleeping in the truck with rotations every hour. We set our alarms and Friday morning I awoke to my buddy poking me saying, "Jaden wake up, its 3:30, we slept through the alarm for an hour and a half!" Alright I was in come kind a trance because these words meant nothing to me. I let out some kind of grunt and went back to sleep. Anyways we all woke up bout 8 thinking what the heck happened to our morning! We were some tired dudes. So we climbed in the truck as fast as possible and zoomed (obeying speed limits of coarse :) ) to the permit window where were met with a slight laugh upon our asking for mystery permits. We had been beaten again! (this is staring to feel like an old time Jazz vs Bulls series). Any who, the ranger then told us rain was expected and she advised us not to do spry. So we followed her council, hoped in the truck, and went to st. george to find a place to climb. We had this fancy gps unit that was really good at knowing turn by turn directions to get us lost. so we ditched technology and found the "Desert Rat" through word of mouth. There we met a salesman who was real sweet and took us bouldering that night. Only one guy in our group is a climber, the rest of us have never been, so as those two talked about smearing the jib (explanation..??) we played around on some easier routes and had a real good time.

Saturday
We were told there was another very good chance of lots of moister so we just packed up and headed home. We drove in IN n Out burger before of coarse.

So after a sweet trip here is the dilemma: we are all addicted to canyoneering and live 9 hrs away, ahh the horror! So, does anyone know anything remotely close to canyoneering around eastern idaho? But to help aid things a bit, we are now in the process of planning another slightly shorter trip down to Zion before the summer is over (we gotta get mystery!)

What i took away from the trip:
1. Zion is absolutely beautiful! and its our job to keep it that way! too many tourists there not respecting the land.
2. You can do awesome amazing things, you just have to get off yer butt and go do them. This trip was something I normally would have never done but a wise teacher told me, "if your bored in the summer its your own damn fault" so we got together, through this trip together, and had the time of our lives.
3. The canyons are extremely serious. We were able to make it through the ones we did without much trouble at all, but I now understand the seriousness of them a little more. Before I had no clue at the scale these puppies are (that could be an oxymoron, sorry). We made sure to take the time to learn skills to help us and we had proper equipment, but even still I will be very picky as I do more canyons in the future. I think this is a sport to be learned over a long period of time, no need to rush into getting yourself hurt.
4. Wear a helmet: self explanatory
5, 6, 7.....: Zion and canyoneering are just unreal!!

Again, BIG thanks to Tom Jones, you helped us out more than you know. And thanks to everyone that gave me advice in my last post. You all made me and my group life long canyon junkies.

p.s.
I'm having trouble loading pics, any advice?

sarahlizzy
05-31-2009, 03:01 AM
Wake up and get to permit window at 4, but yet again we only attempted to get mystery, we were beat out by some 3:30 dude.

Eek!

Cirrus2000
05-31-2009, 05:51 AM
Dude, you're going to fit in here just fine! Mountain Dew at 2AM on a Friday night? Oh, yeah...

I'm half way through your report, but have to run off to work :frustrated: - looking forward to reading the rest!

Iceaxe
05-31-2009, 12:02 PM
Great TR... :2thumbs:

This shows how to upload pictures to Bogley....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYARJIr9ItQ

mmac
05-31-2009, 02:02 PM
Only one guy in our group is a climber, the rest of us have never been, so as those two talked about smearing the jib (explanation..??)

Smearing is a climbing technique where you place a hand or usually foot on the wall in a place where there aren't any really distinct holds. It uses shear friction to maintain contact and provide you with stability. A jib is a very small hand or foot hold.

Great TR, looking forward to photos!

cookiecutter
05-31-2009, 03:24 PM
Thanks iceaxe, lets see if these pics work..

Starting Hike to Subway
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4057.jpg

Finding some water in Subway (yes I did put that helmet on right after)
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4067.jpg

Nice waterfall in subway
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/PICT0050.jpg

The grand Cathedral Rap, Pine Creek
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/PICT0071.jpg

Final Rap in Pine Creek
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4096.jpg

Some swimming in Pine Creek
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/PICT0074.jpg

Looking up the final rap, Pine Creek
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4097.jpg

Going into Keyhole
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4122.jpg

more keyhole..http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4123.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4126.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4130.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4120.jpg

cookiecutter
05-31-2009, 03:45 PM
pics continued...behunin




http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4182.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4181.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4180.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4192.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4204.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4171.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4177.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4209.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4198.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4185-1.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4212.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/PICT0165.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/PICT0161.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/PICT0150.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj285/cookiecutter12/DSCF4184-1.jpg

cookiecutter
05-31-2009, 03:47 PM
Sorry we aren't the best picture takers. The real photographer in our group wont let me use his pics till he photoshops them, so I'll try and get those up when they are done

canyonguru
05-31-2009, 04:41 PM
u guys are awsome i could only wish to stay in zion for a week. i live in las vegas and am LDS as well wich you will find a lot here on bogley. anyways i pretty much only have time to drive up on a saturday at 4 in the morning hit a canyon and drive home. sounds like you guys had a good time.

Cirrus2000
05-31-2009, 07:42 PM
Great photos. Glad I was reading on my laptop, so I could tilt it as required... :haha: The nice thing is the personality showing in the pics. Way to go, guys! :2thumbs:

ratagonia
05-31-2009, 09:41 PM
Great photos. Glad I was reading on my laptop, so I could tilt it as required... :haha: The nice thing is the personality showing in the pics. Way to go, guys! :2thumbs:

Yeah, what he said. Looked like you guys had a lot of fun.

Thanks for the kind words. I like that last picture... Could I use that on my website???

Tom

cookiecutter
05-31-2009, 10:50 PM
Glad I was reading on my laptop, so I could tilt it as required...

haha its good for a nice neck stretch..roll your head to your left shoulder, inhale, now slowly lean your head to your right shoulder, exhale. this moment of zen brought to by inexperienced posting

cookiecutter
05-31-2009, 10:58 PM
I like that last picture... Could I use that on my website???

Serious?? If so, heck ya you can use it! Thats Sam, and he'd really find it awesome to be on your site. I think he can almost quote your entire book. I can e-mail the pic to you in full quality if needed




cookiecutter

Odie_Canyon
06-01-2009, 06:30 AM
Sorry to hear you were unable to get Mystery permits. I was second in line Friday morning for Saturday permits and no one else in line seemed to be there for Mystery. You missed a nice hike, but I am still trying to decide if the hike was worth getting up at 3:30am...May have some pictures of what you missed out on.

ratagonia
06-01-2009, 08:24 AM
I like that last picture... Could I use that on my website???

Serious?? If so, heck ya you can use it! Thats Sam, and he'd really find it awesome to be on your site. I think he can almost quote your entire book. I can e-mail the pic to you in full quality if needed

cookiecutter

Cool. Yeah, email me a bigger version: canyoneeringusa at gmail dot com.

Photo credit? Last name??

I am forwarding your trip report to Park Staff. Great to have a trip centered around getting to the permit office at the "correct" hour, eh? Sleep deprivation really enhances the wilderness experience.

Tom

ratagonia
06-01-2009, 08:25 AM
Wake up and get to permit window at 4, but yet again we only attempted to get mystery, we were beat out by some 3:30 dude.

Eek!

And just so you know, "Everyone loves the permit system, because it works for them so well!!!"

Tom

ratagonia
06-01-2009, 08:37 AM
I am forwarding your trip report to Park Staff. Great to have a trip centered around getting to the permit office at the "correct" hour, eh? Sleep deprivation really enhances the wilderness experience.

Tom

Actually, let me change that to a request - could you send the text of your trip report to the Park, with a cover letter that explains how wonderful the permit system enhanced the wilderness quality of your trip --- NOT! oops, sarcasm is not a good technique for official letters...

The address is:

Superintendent
Zion National Park
Springdale, UT 84767

Thanks, Tom :moses:

ps. taking out the effusive "thanks to Tom" might be a good idea.

sarahlizzy
06-01-2009, 08:54 AM
Loving the photos, especially the one with the rope ascending into the heavens with the sun behind it - that's really fantastic!

Am thinking jetlag is going to be my ally when it comes to getting a Mystery permit.

Iceaxe
06-01-2009, 09:36 AM
Sleep deprivation really enhances the wilderness experience.

And improves the safety of the group....

:roll:

Jaxx
06-01-2009, 09:38 AM
Great write up and pics! And to top it off Tom didn't criticize you for anything. You guys are starting off on a good foot! :roflol:

sarahlizzy
06-01-2009, 09:47 AM
Wake up and get to permit window at 4, but yet again we only attempted to get mystery, we were beat out by some 3:30 dude.

Eek!

And just so you know, "Everyone loves the permit system, because it works for them so well!!!"


Oh well - at least I have a good book to read while waiting. Think I saw a picture of it recently, actually :haha:

Scott Card
06-01-2009, 10:44 AM
I am forwarding your trip report to Park Staff. Great to have a trip centered around getting to the permit office at the "correct" hour, eh? Sleep deprivation really enhances the wilderness experience.

Tom

Actually, let me change that to a request - could you send the text of your trip report to the Park, with a cover letter that explains how wonderful the permit system enhanced the wilderness quality of your trip --- NOT! oops, sarcasm is not a good technique for official letters...

The address is:

Superintendent
Zion National Park
Springdale, UT 84767

Thanks, Tom :moses:

ps. taking out the effusive "thanks to Tom" might be a good idea.I think I will draft a letter expressing my thanks for the process to use the express permit system. I was in Cedar City on business on Friday and decided to make a special trip to the BackCountry desk to watch the poop video just so I could get my permits online. What great system. Special trip to get permits in the future in an effort to avoid the early morning lines. :frustrated: I guess all was not lost. I got to wait for 20 minutes to find a parking spot at Pine Creek/Observation Point trailhead parking lot so I could walk the trail to observation point. (I was going to squeze in Pine Creek but the nasty dark clouds forming were too much for me) I had a lovely walk to commune with nature with about 70 of my closest friends, none of which I know. Ahhh the solitude.....

On a positive note. The "Desk Copy" of the Zion canyons at the back country desk is Tom's book. So did that replace the old "black book" or is that still there? Also the nice rangerette was nice to me and mustn't have realized that I was one of the Mapleton trouble makers. Oh, and ZAC owes me big. I sent three tourists to them for wetsuit rentals for their big adventure in Keyhole.

Back on topic, great TR and thanks for the photos. It does me good to see the canyons while I sit here at the office.

moab mark
06-01-2009, 12:22 PM
I'm sure Tom and many others have met with the Park Service on the backcountry permit system. I would guess probably every other way of doing this has been discussed. But it seems like if the park service handed out a # to those that are in line for x permit at 7:00 am for a lottery at 7:05. Yes there would be more people there to try and get a mystery but this insane concept of showing up at 2:00 am would be over. After lottery then the permits would be first come first serve. Just drop the #'s in a hat and draw. You could show up at five to 7 and hope.
Last year when we were staying in watchman with our Scouts. There were people sleeping out on the cement at 1:30 one morning?

Mark

ratagonia
06-01-2009, 12:30 PM
I'm sure Tom and many others have met with the Park Service on the backcountry permit system. I would guess probably every other way of doing this has been discussed. But it seems like if the park service handed out a # to those that are in line for x permit at 7:00 am for a lottery at 7:05. Yes there would be more people there to try and get a mystery but this insane concept of showing up at 2:00 am would be over. After lottery then the permits would be first come first serve. Just drop the #'s in a hat and draw. You could show up at five to 7 and hope.
Last year when we were staying in watchman with our Scouts. There were people sleeping out on the cement at 1:30 one morning?

Mark

I have talked with the Park Service. They tell me: "everyone loves the permit system, we have very few complaints". and, "there's only a few people that don't like the system, and you are one of them", and "I know it doesn't work for you, but we are trying to build a permit system that works for the majority of visitors, not people like you that do a lot of canyons".

They say this because very few people complain.

Tom

jman
06-01-2009, 02:25 PM
I'm sure Tom and many others have met with the Park Service on the backcountry permit system. I would guess probably every other way of doing this has been discussed. But it seems like if the park service handed out a # to those that are in line for x permit at 7:00 am for a lottery at 7:05. Yes there would be more people there to try and get a mystery but this insane concept of showing up at 2:00 am would be over. After lottery then the permits would be first come first serve. Just drop the #'s in a hat and draw. You could show up at five to 7 and hope.
Last year when we were staying in watchman with our Scouts. There were people sleeping out on the cement at 1:30 one morning?

Mark

I have talked with the Park Service. They tell me: "everyone loves the permit system, we have very few complaints". and, "there's only a few people that don't like the system, and you are one of them", and "I know it doesn't work for you, but we are trying to build a permit system that works for the majority of visitors, not people like you that do a lot of canyons".

They say this because very few people complain.

Tom

haha...that's actually funny.

On memorial weekend I got a permit for Das Boot: I got there at 7am and waitted close till 8:30 IN LINE waiting for everyone. The line was probably about 15 people ahead me. An 1 1/2 waiting for 15 people! I was going nuts just waiting around and hearing everyone go to the desk: "So what's good here?" "What do you recommend?" "Hows your job?" "What's the weather like?" How long does the Subway take?" "How come there is no permits left for the Subway". etc. It was so irritating because it seemed like everyone wasn't prepared for any hike (beta wise) and asking 4 (or was it 5-i lost count) trillion questions about the Subway. ugg....

Oh, and it would definitely speed up the process if everyone knew the license plate numbers of ALL their vehicles. It's always the same of people running back and forth and waiting 5-10min to get the #.

And maybe they should have a seperate line for people who are getting walk-in permits and those who have reserved their permits online, they could potentially speed things up quite a bit.

moab mark
06-01-2009, 02:26 PM
Tom,
When I am down there next week I would like to just here there reasoning. Do you know who is in charge of the backcountry desk? Is it the superintendent? Or someone else?

Mark

mmac
06-01-2009, 02:26 PM
Not to hijack the thread (sorry cookiecutter) but I'm planing on trying to get walkup permits for this weekend. Will they give me permits if I haven't seen the video? Can I get permits and then watch the vid? Is the vid required for in person permit pickup? Should I drive up Friday to do the orientation and then do the walkup Saturday morning?

Stick
06-01-2009, 02:35 PM
Not to hijack the thread (sorry cookiecutter) but I'm planing on trying to get walkup permits for this weekend. Will they give me permits if I haven't seen the video? Can I get permits and then watch the vid? Is the vid required for in person permit pickup? Should I drive up Friday to do the orientation and then do the walkup Saturday morning?

The video is for people who want to sign up for the Zion Express permits. This lets people pay for permits online up to three days in advance. Well worth it (I think) if you plan on doing any more canyoneering in Zion.

But to answer your question, you don't need to watch the video to pick up permits in person.

MiCanyoneer
06-01-2009, 02:56 PM
Even with the Express Permit System. If you are trying to do a canyon like Mystery and don't get a lottery pick you are still waiting in line to get the Permit.

I also wish I could transfer my normal reservations to the express reservation. Since I already made my reservation but can not get an express acount till I get there.

They should allow people to watch the video online.

Kevin from Michigan who will be waiting in line from the June 19-25

Stick
06-01-2009, 03:13 PM
Even with the Express Permit System. If you are trying to do a canyon like Mystery and don't get a lottery pick you are still waiting in line to get the Permit.

I also wish I could transfer my normal reservations to the express reservation. Since I already made my reservation but can not get an express acount till I get there.

They should allow people to watch the video online.

Kevin from Michigan who will be waiting in line from the June 19-25

That is true, the express permits only help for permits you reserve online, and only if you are logged in when you make the reservation. I too wish they could match normal reservations with express accounts.

ratagonia
06-01-2009, 03:28 PM
haha...that's actually funny.

On memorial weekend I got a permit for Das Boot: I got there at 7am and waitted close till 8:30 IN LINE waiting for everyone. The line was probably about 15 people ahead me. An 1 1/2 waiting for 15 people! I was going nuts just waiting around and hearing everyone go to the desk: "So what's good here?" "What do you recommend?" "Hows your job?" "What's the weather like?" How long does the Subway take?" "How come there is no permits left for the Subway". etc. It was so irritating because it seemed like everyone wasn't prepared for any hike (beta wise) and asking 4 (or was it 5-i lost count) trillion questions about the Subway. ugg....

Oh, and it would definitely speed up the process if everyone knew the license plate numbers of ALL their vehicles. It's always the same of people running back and forth and waiting 5-10min to get the #.

And maybe they should have a seperate line for people who are getting walk-in permits and those who have reserved their permits online, they could potentially speed things up quite a bit.

Superintendent
Zion National Park
Springdale, UT 84767

:moses:

ratagonia
06-01-2009, 03:32 PM
Tom,
When I am down there next week I would like to just here there reasoning. Do you know who is in charge of the backcountry desk? Is it the superintendent? Or someone else?

Mark

Reasoning? Read the backcountry plan. Ask for one when you are at the BC Desk.

Annette is "in charge" of the desk. Ray is the "Plateau District Ranger", the main decision maker. But if you want to get stuff done, you complain to the Superintendent.

Tom

Iceaxe
06-01-2009, 04:02 PM
But if you want to get stuff done, you complain to the Superintendent.

I agree.... bitching to anyone else... desk ranger, your buddy, your wife, those on Bogley...... does no good.

I just don't bother with most permits anymore..... OOPS!!!.... did I say that out loud?

Civil disobedience is the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands and commands of a government, or of an occupying power, without resorting to physical violence. It is one of the primary tactics of nonviolent resistance.

.

lisa
06-01-2009, 04:41 PM
"camp disappointment" (there were no girls there).


she was border line loony, but she took a picture of us with our wet suites half off lookin manly, so we thought "hey, she is cool people."
:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

Nice trip report, nice writing!

moab mark
06-01-2009, 07:12 PM
Tom,
When I am down there next week I would like to just here there reasoning. Do you know who is in charge of the backcountry desk? Is it the superintendent? Or someone else?

Mark

Reasoning? Read the backcountry plan. Ask for one when you are at the BC Desk.

Annette is "in charge" of the desk. Ray is the "Plateau District Ranger", the main decision maker. But if you want to get stuff done, you complain to the Superintendent.

Tom

Has anyone got his email address. We should start sending him emails with positive suggestions.

Mark

ratagonia
06-01-2009, 07:23 PM
Tom,
When I am down there next week I would like to just here there reasoning. Do you know who is in charge of the backcountry desk? Is it the superintendent? Or someone else?

Mark

Reasoning? Read the backcountry plan. Ask for one when you are at the BC Desk.

Annette is "in charge" of the desk. Ray is the "Plateau District Ranger", the main decision maker. But if you want to get stuff done, you complain to the Superintendent.

Tom

Has anyone got his email address. We should start sending him emails with positive suggestions.

Mark

email? How modern do you think the Park Service is?

I'm only half-kidding. Annette and Ray would love to modernize the BC Desk, but are hampered by a lack of technology and no budget for stuff, like making kiosks for self-check-in.

And I suggest written letters to the Super as the only avenue that will effect any political change. email does not count. written letters count.

EDIT TO ADD: PLEASE also put as a subject "RE: Complaint about the backcountry permit system". Why? Because the Parks are supposed to track complaints. If it is not clearly labeled a 'complaint', it is not clear that the park has to put it in their tally of complaints, even if it rather obviously is. Early on, I did an FOIA request for complaints about crowding in the canyons - the park had no such complaints.

Tom :moses:

trackrunner
06-01-2009, 07:31 PM
And I suggest written letters to the Super as the only avenue that will effect any political change. email does not count. written letters count.

Tom

Tom has a point. Emails can be treated so easily like spam. Can't easily look over bags of mail each day. Sure it could be thrown out like junk mail but every single day would have to physicaly look at the mail before throwing out rather than hitting delete before reading.

Iceaxe
06-02-2009, 08:24 AM
Early on, I did an FOIA request for complaints about crowding in the canyons - the park had no such complaints.

:lol8: I knew the dozen or so letters I have written were sent to the round file.

And I want to ROGER Tom's suggrestions. Send a written letter, clearly mark it as a "complaint". It makes it hard for the the NPS to bury such a letter.

.

cookiecutter
06-02-2009, 02:13 PM
Actually, let me change that to a request - could you send the text of your trip report to the Park, with a cover letter that explains how wonderful the permit system enhanced the wilderness quality of your trip --- NOT! oops, sarcasm is not a good technique for official letters...



Yep I'll write it up and send it in the mail. I grew well angry with the permit system while we were there.

And you should have an e-mail with the picture and credits, if not just let me know. I could have messed up in the sending of it

Felicia
06-02-2009, 07:40 PM
Very nice trip report. I really enjoyed your writing and the pictures are awesome! :five:

ratagonia
06-02-2009, 09:01 PM
Actually, let me change that to a request - could you send the text of your trip report to the Park, with a cover letter that explains how wonderful the permit system enhanced the wilderness quality of your trip --- NOT! oops, sarcasm is not a good technique for official letters...



Yep I'll write it up and send it in the mail. I grew well angry with the permit system while we were there.

And you should have an e-mail with the picture and credits, if not just let me know. I could have messed up in the sending of it

Got it. Who took the photo??

Tom

cookiecutter
06-02-2009, 10:13 PM
Got it. Who took the photo??

Tom

I did, Jaden Cook.

cookiecutter
06-02-2009, 10:21 PM
Very nice trip report. I really enjoyed your writing and the pictures are awesome!



Thanks!

ratagonia
06-02-2009, 11:25 PM
Got it. Who took the photo??

Tom

I did, Jaden Cook.

Thanks... T

tanya
06-03-2009, 06:43 AM
Fun photos and trip report! How did those 5 fingers work out for canyoneering?

I have some but have not worn them out anywhere. The no neoprene sock things leaves me cold. :haha:

cookiecutter
06-04-2009, 08:13 AM
Fun photos and trip report! How did those 5 fingers work out for canyoneering?

I have some but have not worn them out anywhere. The no neoprene sock things leaves me cold.




Well he only wore them in Keyhole, and I think its becuase it was such a short watery canyon and he was tearing up his trail runners in previous canyons. He never complained, but the next day he was back to shoes haha. He swears by them, but I dont think you'd catch me takin them into a canyon

ratagonia
06-06-2009, 04:37 PM
Got it. Who took the photo??

Tom

I did, Jaden Cook.

Thanks... T

Check it out:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/product.php?productid=16309&cat=112&page=1

Tom

ststephen
06-06-2009, 07:53 PM
Nice TR! very enjoyable read.




I am forwarding your trip report to Park Staff. Great to have a trip centered around getting to the permit office at the "correct" hour, eh? Sleep deprivation really enhances the wilderness experience.

Tom

Tom, are you advocating having more of a lottery aspect? They could run it like they do for concert tickets at least here in my neck of the woods. At T-minus some hour if less than N people are in line then the line will run first come first serve. But if more than N people are in line then it becomes a lottery by means of handing out numbered tickets. Someone draws a number and the line is cut like a deck of cards at that person's number with the lucky person being #1 and the person behind him/her #2, etc.

Would you all prefer that? Has it's pluses and minues. Personally, I kinda liked knowing that if I really wanted to be first I could just show up early enough. But this way you don't worry about it.

cookiecutter
06-06-2009, 11:42 PM
Check it out:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/product.php?productid=16309&cat=112&page=1

Tom

Thats flippin awesome!! Dang thats really cool, Sam is loving it big time and our parents find it pretty neat as well.

If ever you need more models, I can grow a pretty impressive beard in about 7 days given the right conditions. Perfect for the outback rugged canyoneer persona..

But in seriousness, thanks for using the pic! We all really appreciate it!


Jaden

ratagonia
06-07-2009, 07:06 AM
Nice TR! very enjoyable read.


I am forwarding your trip report to Park Staff. Great to have a trip centered around getting to the permit office at the "correct" hour, eh? Sleep deprivation really enhances the wilderness experience.
Tom

Tom, are you advocating having more of a lottery aspect? They could run it like they do for concert tickets at least here in my neck of the woods. At T-minus some hour if less than N people are in line then the line will run first come first serve. But if more than N people are in line then it becomes a lottery by means of handing out numbered tickets. Someone draws a number and the line is cut like a deck of cards at that person's number with the lucky person being #1 and the person behind him/her #2, etc.

Would you all prefer that? Has it's pluses and minues. Personally, I kinda liked knowing that if I really wanted to be first I could just show up early enough. But this way you don't worry about it.

Do you buy the claim that the canyons in Zion are SO CROWDED that they need to be tightly controlled??? And that they ALL have to be managed in much the same way, because that is what the people want?

This is a long discussion, with a LOT of backstory. The main point should be that the permit system SUCKS and impinges on the Wilderness Experience of people that participate in it. This TR is a good example - the entire trip was focused on getting back to the permit office in time to compete for the permit for the next day.

more: http://canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/

Tom :moses: