Rock Slide In Pine Creek

[canyonguru]

So i went down Pine Creek on Saturday and i couldn't belive what i saw on the last rappel, Half of the alcove fell down into the last pool. I haven't heard anything on bogley about it so i thought i would post up and see if anyone has anymore information about when it happened and how much rock fell. I would say that there is about 15 to 20 feet of rock on the ground making it only about 85ft rappel. Also a cool thing is you can now climb up into the uper grotto behind that last rap the pool up there is crystal clear and it makes for some good pics of people on the last rap.

Sorry no pics they other guy in the group has them. Anyways post up if you have any info. thanks

[Iceaxe]

:eek2:

First I've heard of this, it must be new.....

I can't wait for someone to post a couple pictures because it will be a while before I'm back in Zion.

:popcorn:

[Cirrus2000]

It happened a while back - I remember talk on the Yahoo group about the shorter last rap. Here are a couple of pics of the landing zone:

[trackrunner]

It happened a while back - I remember talk on the Yahoo group about the shorter last rap. Here are a couple of pics of the landing zone:

Same. I tried to search for it over on the Yahoo group but it wasn't showing up. Think it happened late winter early spring. Remember it was Tom that posted it. He can fill in the details I missed.

Canyonguru, speaking of Pine Creek how about a conditions report? How was the water? Low water levels? cold? wetsuits eneed?

[Iceaxe]

Thanks for the pics.... :2thumbs:

[jumar]

:eek2:

[canyonguru]

The Backcountry office stated that the water was 40 degrees and i would say that is about right. The water is about half from full. The first pothole is pretty empty just a small wade about waist deep but i am 6'3 so maybe higher for some folks. The only swimmer is out of the cathedral the landing is waist deep and there is a sand bar on the far side. Then to get out there is a very short swim maybe 15-20 ft. All other pools are waist deep or less. I was in a shorty wet suite and we took a group of 12 down. I was just fine never got the chills or shakes and we spent a long time in the canyon getting everyone through. A couple of guys went without suites so if you are worm blooded you should be fine. The canyon looks great but it is a bummer about that last drop it is pretty ulgy now. It is crazy to think that the last rappel will never be the same so if you have done it in the past i would cherrish those pics you have becuase it will never look like that again.

Mother nature is awesome and i am sure glad no one was there to get hurt during the rock fall.

[Scott Card]

Come on Bogley, lets put together a service project and clean the place up. There is ample testostrone on this site to move those boulders. :lol8: Maybe if we all just chip a chunk of rock out each time we go in a couple of years we can have the place back to photo op meca. . . . or not.

On a more serious issue, should the anchor be moved back to the water course since one can easily get out to the alcove it appears?

[Iceaxe]

If I had to pick a canyon that has changed more than any other I know of over the past 10 years it would be Pine Creek. Most canyons stay the same and never seem to change.... or the changes are extremely slow and gradual.... but not Pine Creek.... the changes I have seen in that canyon are amazing... as the forgotten bolts hanging high on the canyon walks and no longer usable and in some cases even reachable will confirm...

:popcorn:

[DWayne27]

Any one have some good before pics? I have never done this one and would like to see a Before and After if possible

[canyonguru]

this isn't the best picture but i just serched on the net for one. all of mine aren't on the computer.

[canyonguru]

i think it would be reallly cool to have it moved into the alcove. it is awsome in there but it will make the rap only a obout 70ft i would say.

[Scott P]

this isn't the best picture

Hey, that's my wife in that picture. :wink: That makes it the best. :2thumbs:

[Felicia]

Photo taken last fall.

[sarahlizzy]

Stops me worrying about whether my rope's long enough, I guess.

[Randi]

Come on Bogley, lets put together a service project and clean the place up. There is ample testostrone on this site to move those boulders. :lol8: Maybe if we all just chip a chunk of rock out each time we go in a couple of years we can have the place back to photo op meca. . . . or not.

On a more serious issue, should the anchor be moved back to the water course since one can easily get out to the alcove it appears?

Dang it! Nature sucks sometimes! I LOVE that little alcove! I would totally be willing to bring a sledge hammer and help restore it to it's former self!
I bet you a dozen or so people could get a lot done in a day!

I'm just glad that no one was on rappell of around the area when it happened! Can you imagine?!

That spot in Pine Creek holds a very dear memory for me! PC was the 2nd canyon my girls had ever done, and Sarah was the first one out of our group down that rap! She was 13 at the time. While waiting for the rest of us, she wandered around and found quite a few critters (all dead sadly) so she built this little critter shrine. So she had this very creative little creature memorial all set for us by the time we'd arrived...best part of the trip for me seeing this thing she created!

And besides all that, it was such a sweet way to end the canyon rapping into that nice pool.

OK Scott, we got two of us. You must be interested or you wouldn't have mentioned it! :nod: Who else is on board?

Dammit, I'm taking some "new to Zion" folks through there in a couple of weeks! Bad timing for mother nature to be pulling this beauty & the beast scenerio! :(

[Iceaxe]

You people make me laugh sometimes.... just because someone slammed a couple bolts in the wall or wrapped webbing around a certain rock does not mean you have to use their anchor.

If you want to rappel down the main water course into the alcove above "just do it!" We do it all the time, particularly when we get to the last rappel and the usual 30 to 60 minute queue is forming. Just because the bolts are at a certain spot does not mean that is how you have to do the route.

My only concern with establishing new anchors is don't make a big ass mess or create new social trails in a place like Zion. When we do the watercourse rappel we normally ask someone standing around the top waiting for their turn at the "standard rappel" to remove our sling when we are finished.

:cool2:

[french_de]

You people make me laugh sometimes.... just because someone slammed a couple bolts in the wall or wrapped webbing around a certain rock does not mean you have to use their anchor.

If you want to rappel down the main water course into the alcove above "just do it!" We do it all the time, particularly when we get to the last rappel and the usual 30 to 60 minute queue is forming. Just because the bolts are at a certain spot does not mean that is how you have to do the route.

My only concern with establishing new anchors is don't make a big ass mess or create new social trails in a place like Zion. When we do the watercourse rappel we normally ask someone standing around the top waiting for their turn at the "standard rappel" to remove our sling when we are finished.

:cool2:
This may be a dumb question, but where is the main water course rappel located?

[moab mark]

Right before you climb out of the main drainage to go over to the bolted anchor. Keep going staight and you can look down through that hole into the alcove. That would be the main water course rappel. I'll post a picture later.

Mark

[Iceaxe]

Last year my group at the Zion Bogley Fest used the watercourse rappel. There are probably some pictures of the rappel and alcove floating around somewhere. When we got to the final rappel there was a line of about 20 people waiting to use the standard anchor so we just tossed anther line down the water course. The nice thing is the watercourse rappel and the standard rappel do not interfere with each other at all so it's a fast way to get a lot of people down that final drop.

At one time (1999?) there were bolts for the watercourse rappel but they were pulled after a debris bridge fell and it became a little dangerous to get to the bolts. Now we just sling a boulder about 10' back from the drop.

.

[Scott Card]

I have done the main water course while flowing. What a blast! Pictures below are second to the last rap and the last rap into the alcove using the water course. You can see the rope if you look closely. Great day and best trip through Pine Creek in my short experience.

[canyonguru]

i always thought that if pine creek had flowing water that it would be death to go down there, but it looks like it is doable. what time of year what it when you guys went down during flowing water .

[french_de]

Last year my group at the Zion Bogley Fest used the watercourse rappel. There are probably some pictures of the rappel and alcove floating around somewhere. When we got to the final rappel there was a line of about 20 people waiting to use the standard anchor so we just tossed anther line down the water course. The nice thing is the watercourse rappel and the standard rappel do not interfere with each other at all so it's a fast way to get a lot of people down that final drop.

At one time (1999?) there were bolts for the watercourse rappel but they were pulled after a debris bridge fell and it became a little dangerous to get to the bolts. Now we just sling a boulder about 10' back from the drop.

.How long is the rappel?

[Scott Card]

Last year my group at the Zion Bogley Fest used the watercourse rappel. There are probably some pictures of the rappel and alcove floating around somewhere. When we got to the final rappel there was a line of about 20 people waiting to use the standard anchor so we just tossed anther line down the water course. The nice thing is the watercourse rappel and the standard rappel do not interfere with each other at all so it's a fast way to get a lot of people down that final drop.

At one time (1999?) there were bolts for the watercourse rappel but they were pulled after a debris bridge fell and it became a little dangerous to get to the bolts. Now we just sling a boulder about 10' back from the drop.

.How long is the rappel?80 feet??? We had a 100 footer and had plenty to spare. It is shorter since it drops you into the alcove. You used to have about a 10 foot or so drop to the pool below from the alcove.

[Iceaxe]

How long is the rappel?

We used all of a 60 meter rope and pull chord, but we went from top all the way to the bottom (normal landing zone) and chained both drops together.

Scott's correct in that the actual drop into the alcove is about 70' (Scott guessed 80).

:cool2:

[moab mark]

So can you walk out of the alcove onto the big pile of rocks now?
Mark

[trackrunner]

So can you walk out of the alcove onto the big pile of rocks now?
Mark

That's what it sounds like

[shaggy125]

Did Pine Creek Monday, the final rap is probably 15 or so feet shorter? Maybe 10. Wild that the pool is gone and the spring flows out of the rock only 5 feet or so above the rock pile now. Also the downclimb after the cathedral (the one with an optional ledge traverse to anchors for rappel on the right side LDC) is completley filled with sand, you just walk over what used to be a downclimb on logs into a pool. Water was medium to low. Cathedral had an 8 foot swim but the rest of the canyon had waist deep water or less.

[trackrunner]

Thanks shaggy for the update.

[Scott Card]

Did Pine Creek Monday, the final rap is probably 15 or so feet shorter? Maybe 10. Wild that the pool is gone and the spring flows out of the rock only 5 feet or so above the rock pile now. Also the downclimb after the cathedral (the one with an optional ledge traverse to anchors for rappel on the right side LDC) is completley filled with sand, you just walk over what used to be a downclimb on logs into a pool. Water was medium to low. Cathedral had an 8 foot swim but the rest of the canyon had waist deep water or less.Wo. I think I agree with Ice that this is one of the most dynamic canyons out there. And not to be redundunt or repeat myself :haha: , that canyon not only changes but changes quite dramatically.

[Mike C.]

Wow, the last rappel certainly has changed. The seep line is around eye level now and my best estimate of the rap length is 92 feet based upon my shrunken 60M rope. Maybe monsoon season will be good to it and clean out some of the rockfall.

Sorry to see some graffiti but thankfully written in chalk just before the last rappel. You can complain about the permit system but it has some benefits...if you've been through our San Gabriel canyons you'll know what I'm talking about. Graffiti in Eaton Canyon is horrible.

Mike C.

[Bo_Beck]

If I had to pick a canyon that has changed more than any other I know of over the past 10 years it would be Pine Creek. Most canyons stay the same and never seem to change.... or the changes are extremely slow and gradual.... but not Pine Creek.... the changes I have seen in that canyon are amazing... as the forgotten bolts hanging high on the canyon walks and no longer usable and in some cases even reachable will confirm...

:popcorn:

I remember 10 or 12 years back when you'd come to a house size boulder in that section. You'd then scramble up top and those "bolts" were a 25' rappel back down the other side. It was possible to downclimb a logjam on the left side (LDC) of the boulder and then walk a tunnel underneath as well. Now all that is left are those bolts 25' up and not a rock in sight!

[canyonguru]

yeah i to reamember having to do that 25ft rap. it was the first time i went down pine creek 9 or so years ago. i remember the next time i went a couple of years later it was all gone looking like it does now

[Iceaxe]

I remember 10 or 12 years back when you'd come to a house size boulder in that section. You'd then scramble up top and those "bolts" were a 25' rappel back down the other side.

Do you also remember the huge tree root that was wedged into the canyon about the same time? For the first few years there was a rabbit hole downclimb that allowed you to go under the massive tree root. Than that filled with debris and you were forsted to rappel 10 feet from the tree root.... and than about 8 years ago it all just washed away.....

:popcorn:

[canyonguru]

yeah it was an akward overhang. my scout master at the time and my canyoneering partner now was standing under the big root and i swung uner and kicked him in the chest knocking the wind out of him. its an on-going joke between the two of us everytime we do PC.

[Bo_Beck]

I remember 10 or 12 years back when you'd come to a house size boulder in that section. You'd then scramble up top and those "bolts" were a 25' rappel back down the other side.

Do you also remember the huge tree root that was wedged into the canyon about the same time? For the first few years there was a rabbit hole downclimb that allowed you to go under the massive tree root. Than that filled with debris and you were forsted to rappel 10 feet from the tree root.... and than about 8 years ago it all just washed away.....

:popcorn:

I do remember! That was a HUGE rock there! Where is it now????????? My first time down, I went down that root and trhu the Rabbit Hole!?

[ratagonia]

walking away from the last rap, today. Almost unrecognizable.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Last rappel into the chamber is fun. We left a long sling around the top of the big rock. Here's Randi on it...

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

yeah it was an akward overhang.

That was the rappel where I learned 'watch where you put your free hand'. I dropped off the start with the intention if catching myself on rappel just before hitting bottom. When I dropped the rope went over the top of my free hand and trapped it under the rope. That hurt like hell.....

I can't remember all the details but someone broke both wrists on that same rappel.

:cripple:

[rick t]

actually the broken wrists occured at the old hang off the end of the stump roots. earlier on, but it did make for an "interesting" exit rappel.
though it was the scramble through the boulder field that was the most difficult, wearing both elbows bloody and raw, down climbing with no hands. the memories!

rickt

[Randi]

actually the broken wrists occured at the old hang off the end of the stump roots. earlier on, but it did make for an "interesting" exit rappel.
though it was the scramble through the boulder field that was the most difficult, wearing both elbows bloody and raw, down climbing with no hands. the memories!

rickt

WOW! That was you? Oh man...I can't even imagine!
BOTH wrists!?! :ne_nau:
Perhaps you should drink more milk!

It's amazing how an easish canyon like Pine Creek sees so many accidents! And seems like it's usually experienced people getting hurt there too. I wonder which canyon in Zion actually has the longest rap sheet of accidents? Anyone know if it's Pine Creek?

[Iceaxe]

I wonder which canyon in Zion actually has the longest rap sheet of accidents? Anyone know if it's Pine Creek?

I bet Bo will know....

But I'd put my money on Subway or Orderville. Both see a lot of noob jumping type accidents.... Subway usually has a few hikers slipping on the red cascades to add to the jumping accidents.

:popcorn:

[Randi]

I wonder which canyon in Zion actually has the longest rap sheet of accidents? Anyone know if it's Pine Creek?

I bet Bo will know....

But I'd put my money on Subway or Orderville. Both see a lot of noob jumping type accidents.... Subway usually has a few hikers slipping on the red cascades to add to the jumping accidents.

:popcorn:

Oh yeah, I forgot about Subway. I've heard of quite a few accidents there. In fact, one of my trip partners had to bail a month ago because he tore his calf muscle in Subway the day before our trip.

I know two people who broke their ankle in pine creek and they were both very experienced outdoorsman. It would be interesting to see which canyon is more of a "people eater"... :mrgreen:

I can't wait to see Subway in person!
I've been going to Zion for years now, and this one kept slipping through my fingers for some reason. I hope nothing happens to thwart my plans this time! I'm excited to finally be doing it soon! :2thumbs:

[sarahlizzy]

But I'd put my money on Subway or Orderville. Both see a lot of noob jumping type accidents.... Subway usually has a few hikers slipping on the red cascades to add to the jumping accidents.


When we did the Subway last year, there was a group of teenagers doing it just behind us with nothing but a short length of webbing. No harnesses or anything. We were there with our 60 foot rope, setting up rappels, and at one point one of our group overheard one of them say something like, "Watch this group in front - they're all experts!", which was hilarious because we were all complete newbs, and had only learned how to rappel (with the Zion Rock and Mountain guys) a few days earlier. I did half expect at least one of that group to get a broken ankle or something on the section around keyhole falls, but thankfully none of them did.

It strikes me as a place where, sure, it wouldn't be that tricky to do with no equipment, but it would be so easy to slip and fall and get some minor, but incapacitating injury, and it's a long way to the road...