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[coinslab]

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[Don]

Wow, cool. Keep us informed when you get the carbon dating.

[Win]

What a great find and thanks for not putting it on a shelf at home. :2thumbs:

Win

[trackrunner]

This is awesome. Thanks for sharing :hail2thechief:

Thanks for keeping this for future generations. :2thumbs: Amazing that it lasted this long so close to a road. Thanks to who ever placed the rocks hiding this for furture generations. :nod:

[denaliguide]

nice find. you were very fortunate to locate such a unique piece. unfortunately, no one else will be able to feel the excitement of finding it, now that it's been removed.

if you look at my avater you will see a pot. its location has been known for over 20 years. it has not been removed to a museum. much to the consternation of the local blm. i was able to locate it a few years ago. the joy of findiing it "in situ" was so much better than seeing it in a glass case at the "edge of the cedars" museum. now everything i find i leave in place. i would have just put the rocks back.

read a book called "in search of the old ones" by david roberts. this link will lead to the prologue. it mentions the pot. the book mentions an idea called the "museum of the outdoors". you will have to read it to see what i am talking about.

http://books.google.com/books?id=r5xdUw2wJscC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=in+search+of+the+ancients&source=bl&ots=9UUNuvlGiQ&sig=Kbd3_ycGNJjp6ZpgdumC9zjZOjE&hl=en&ei=TIkNSrbVCYzstQPS29TvAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#PPA20,M1

[oldno7]

nice find. you were very fortunate to locate such a unique piece. unfortunately, no one else will be able to feel the excitement of finding it, now that it's been removed.

if you look at my avater you will see a pot. its location has been known for over 20 years. it has not been removed to a museum. much to the consternation of the local blm. i was able to locate it a few years ago. the joy of findiing it "in situ" was so much better than seeing it in a glass case at the "edge of the cedars" museum. now everything i find i leave in place. i would have just put the rocks back.

read a book called "in search of the old ones" by david roberts. this link will lead to the prologue. it mentions the pot. the book mentions an idea called the "museum of the outdoors". you will have to read it to see what i am talking about.

http://books.google.com/books?id=r5xdUw2wJscC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=in+search+of+the+ancients&source=bl&ots=9UUNuvlGiQ&sig=Kbd3_ycGNJjp6ZpgdumC9zjZOjE&hl=en&ei=TIkNSrbVCYzstQPS29TvAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#PPA20,M1

I agree with Les whole heartidly. This mess started with the Wetherills, McLoyd,Graham and others, continues in the name of science. I don't want to go to New York to see documentation of Cedar Mesa, or SLC to see Freemont documentation. It can never be as it was, once it was removed.

[trackrunner]

I see where you are coming denaliguide. Also see where coinslab is coming from. I would love to come upon a find like this. But I would be torn on putting the rock back hiding it or letting the archeologist know. Would love to leave it there, but would kill my self finding out later that someone stole it instead of it being preserved. So many factors, remote location that nobady knows about or you told me about sure I'd leave it for sure. In an area where a lot of other stuff has been vandalized & destroyed close by I may tell.

I so hope that it is one where it can be an outdoor musem for a long time. If it was I sure wouldn't be telling everyone where it was located (only a trusted few).

Agree with you and Kurt. Seeing the antient cultures in the outdoors are better than a meseum in a large urban city.

[Deathcricket]

Oh man, what an amazing find! Also interesting discussion. I think being so close to the interstate and just how amazing it is, you did the right thing sending it off to a museum. That way thousands will enjoy it vs a chosen few who would be lucky enough to stumble upon it. Plus the risk that the next person won't just put it in a private collection or destroy it. As the person who discovered it, I think it's your choice. If I stumbled upon something amazing and random, I probably would have done the same thing. Also what about bugs eating it, rot, fire, rats, etc. To lose something so delicate and precious to natural causes. *sigh*

I do have to wonder though.. Do you think someone found it before you and hid it again, or do you think the original "stasher" was the owner? How did it feel around the site? The rocks around it don't look to buried.

[trackrunner]

I do have to wonder though.. Do you think someone found it before you and hid it again, or do you think the original "stasher" was the owner? How did it feel around the site? The rocks around it don't look to buried.

I think someone else found it and delicately placed the rocks around it.

Talking to archeoligist they told me when the natives abandoned these dwellings they usually left everything as is. Of course with many thousands of dwellings there are many ways to leave the contents.

[Iceaxe]

nice find. you were very fortunate to locate such a unique piece. unfortunately, no one else will be able to feel the excitement of finding it, now that it's been removed.

A agree with Denaliguide.... I've always considered this museum bullcrap to be nothing more than institutionalized vandalism.

I've found some pretty awesome things.... including a dinosaur that appears to be pretty much intact.... and I have always left them where I found them.

YMMV
:cool2:

[asdf]

What a great find.

I agree with Ice on about the institutionalized vandalism but I can also see some yokel using these for target practice. Who here has not seen vandalized rock art before?

I guess its really a lose lose situation.


I've found some pretty awesome things.... including a dinosaur that appears to be pretty much intact....

Feel free to post the GPS info for this ... :roflol:

[Iceaxe]

Feel free to post the GPS info for this ... :roflol:

It's located along a popular canyoneering approach route in the Swell... I'm sure many others have seen it and just didn't know what they were looking at.

I found it about 2000, I did call the BLM to inquire and ask some questions.... they really didn't seem to have any interest. They told me "Yeah, there are a lot of dino bones out in the Swell but we don't have the time, money or resources to check them all out and protect them all". After they found out they had to hike up the side of a mountain to visit the site and could go there on ATV's they really lost interest.

Dino stuff is kind of a personal thing to me. I (along with rockgremlin and Alex) also found some dino tracks in Leprechaun Canyon that myself and thousands of other canyoneers had walked over for years. Those are GPSed on Climb-Utah.com ;-)



:popcorn:

[trackrunner]

What a great find.

I agree with Ice on about the institutionalized vandalism but I can also see some yokel using these for target practice. Who here has not seen vandalized rock art before?

I guess its really a lose lose situation.

Kind of my feeling too.


I've found some pretty awesome things.... including a dinosaur that appears to be pretty much intact....


So did you place these up in the COF or as a freebie. I'd think this is different then beta for a canyon that some noob comes through and places some bad bolts.

I like that Utah is a right to carry state. Some day a vandal will get shot.

:rifle: :assault: :defend:

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: Here is info and pictures of the Dino Trackway

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3154

The dino bones is one of those things I keep to myself because they will be stolen if I located them on the web.

:cool2:

[Scott P]

Dino bones are fairly common (but finding a complete) skeleton is extremely rare. Tracks are common too.

I've seen/found bones all over the place including, the Swell, Colorado National Monument, McInnis Canyons, Moab, Dirty Devil, etc, etc. The only reason I didn't notice them earlier was because before I started hiking the interpretive trails I wouldn't recognize what I was looking at.

If you want to see them in a natural setting on the CP, there are many places to do so without worrying about secrecy. Just some examples are Rabbit Valley, Dinosaur Hill and Mill Canyon, but there are more than that.

Dinosaur tracks are also all over the place on the CP. I've seen then east of Dinosaur NM (strangely I've never seen them in the monument), McInnis Canyons, Moab, Horseshoe Canyon, St. George area, Subway, Marble Canyon, etc.

Places like western Utah and the Book Cliffs have huge fossils in some area all over the place. same with the areas around Dinosaur National Monument and east along the Yampa River Valley . One mountain by my house is almost entirely made of fossils.

Anyway, about the basket, nice find. I've never found a whole pot, but have found up to half of pots (the Anasazi smashed them when leaving a dwelling), arrowheads, knives, baskets, etc. I've always left them in place, but given that this one is close to a road, I don't think there was anything wrong with what you did. I'm glad that it just didn't end up in someone's house.

[goofball]

very cool. it is very exciting to find relics in situ, especially larger, well preserved items that saw everyday use like vessels. we saw a nice pot once. we were looking for les' pot, but saw this one instead. copletely intact but for the bottom. contacted the blm but i was unsure of its exact locatioin and they did not find it. may still be out there i guess.

[denaliguide]

very cool. it is very exciting to find relics in situ, especially larger, well preserved items that saw everyday use like vessels. we saw a nice pot once. we were looking for les' pot, but saw this one instead. copletely intact but for the bottom. contacted the blm but i was unsure of its exact locatioin and they did not find it. may still be out there i guess.

that's a nice pot too. just knowing that there are things out there like this to try and find keeps me coming back year after year. the thrill of the hunt.


Also what about bugs eating it, rot, fire, rats, etc. To lose something so delicate and precious to natural causes. *sigh*

my guess since it's already been there between 700 and maybe 1000 years that fire is the only real natural cause that could harm it.

another good book that i recommend is called "cowboys and cave dwellers" it documents the search for antiquities removed by the wetherhills, graham, mclloyd and others from the cedar mesa area. trying to establish provenience for collections at various museums across the country. a reverse archealogy. very interesting reading on how much difficulty there is in getting access to collections that some museums have. also i found interesting how much is just gathering dust in basements and hasn't ever been catalogued.

[Iceaxe]

The only reason I didn't notice them earlier was because before I started hiking the interpretive trails I wouldn't recognize what I was looking at.

Hiking the interpretive trails is how I also learned what to look for. :2thumbs:

used to be a good one just north of Moab, in Mill Creek I believe.

.

[coinslab]

As quoted from state archeologist Kevin Jones "the Fremont placed rocks around this to prevent other tribes from finding this" So it HAS NOT been found by anyone. Here's my reasoning for telling the archeologist.
#1 there is a coal mining road 30 feet from where this was found.
#2 What if it was a missing link to how they dissapeared it would be lost forever if some idiot happened to steal it. I know the locals are cursing me for not taking and selling it on ebay. They are pretty dumb if you haven't noticed. So I did NOT want it in the wrong hands.

[Iceaxe]

coinslab no one is picking on you for turning the pot over to the proper people.... I think everyone is just a little sad that items like that can't be left around for others to find and enjoy.

It was a nice find.... you should be proud of it. I hope you took lots of pictures to remember :2thumbs:

:cool2:

[coinslab]

Yes, i see where you are coming from but the people in the area it wouldn't be so great if they found it. I turn large finds over to archeologists but small finds pottery/arrowheads i just leave there. It does kind of seem they are mad at me for turning it over but I know i did what was right.

[denaliguide]

no one is mad at you coinslab. sorry you feel that way. you did what you felt was right at the time. it's just different philosophies about how to handle the things we find. i used to think the same way. but after reading the two books i mentioned i changed my opinion about it.

if you really feel that people were rough on you, i would suggest you stay out of the political section. :haha:

the only way it could have been the missing link is if there was a piece of parchment in the bowl saying "to dry here, gone to chaco for the kachinas" :roflol:

lighten up and have a sense of humor, don't take me or us or yourself too seriously. after all its just the internet.

[coinslab]

The date could give insights. Anyhow the natives put those annoying made in Emery County stickers in it lol they really didn't.

[Iceaxe]

Anyhow the natives put those annoying made in Emery County stickers in it.

This reminds me... I had a friend who was making a few extra dollars by gathering several big sandstone rocks and carving petrogylphs into them and selling the rocks... he always sold them as art and never tried to pass them off as anything else..... but he finally had to start carving his name and date on the back of the rocks because folks kept turning him and his customers in for stealing artifacts.

:haha:

[coinslab]

Lol seriously? Tell him congrats for doing so well.

[Brewhaha]

Everyone does have different philosophies on these kinds of things. I agree with Les and love the Outdoor Museum idea - largely because I've found Les' pot and had a great time doing it. My personal feeling is that if you find something and tell the authorities then it's a pretty safe bet that they will collect it and you will never see it again - even in a museum. If you don't tell the authorities then there is always the chance that a pot-hunter will take it but there is also the chance that it will be left alone and you, and other like-minded individuals, can visit it many, many times. I don't hold anything against those who report such finds but I personally would not.

[coinslab]

That is not correct, my cousins basket is in the museum so he DID see it again.

[fouristhenewone]

a few quick things - A. If Kevin Jones the state whatchmajmbot conclusively said that "the Fremont placed rocks around this to prevent other tribes from finding this" then I have to say I think ol' Kev there could me overstating his knowledge of anything. I suppose it's possible, but based on everything I've known about baskets/and pots found at sites, many people do exactly what your photo shows. stack some rocks in a manner which will make it less obvious to the visitor, provides some protection, and allows the more determined to find it.

B. Good on you for doing what you felt you should. When I first read the topic title, I was immediately concerned this was going to be a picture of this basket in your basement collection, and I that's something I'd have a lot harder time with then what you've done. While I am a big believer in the "outdoor museum" concept, I can understand why you called in the BLM.

C. I also recommend David Robert's books, as well as Cowboys and Cave Dwellers which is a amazing book by a local authority, and House of Rain, by Craig Childs.

Lastly - While certainly the Wetherills made PLENTY of mistakes, I'd suggest anyone who is interested in the early history of archaeology in the Four Corners region, read Anazasi - a biography of Richard Wetherill by Frank Mcnitt.

[coinslab]

Kevin Jones doesn't work for the government. He mainly works with museums, and mainly works for range creek and he partner who is also working with me is the one that found the flute and the shovel. Anyhow, it was WAY too close to Emery Utah for me to just leave it there the people in Emery a lot of them have the concept of "finders keepers" and they put it in their collection so I couldn't have let it be stolen. As for the rocks I have read articles and it says they put the basket there while passing by (maybe they couldn't take it with) and wanted to protect it from other tribes so they placed rocks around it so they couldn't find it. + 99.99% of the people in emery county would sell the thing for $$ so I doubt they would place rocks around it. :lol8: :lol8:

[coinslab]

BTW when the rocks and the basket were moved a bunch of sand fell out that only could've been collected 1000 years.

[Mtnman1830]

Hmmm.... I thought the first geocache was hidden in Oregon.....

Looks like it was here in Utah. Wonder what they used for a gps????


That was a real nice find. I wish I could come across something like that. All I have found is some sherds.

:2thumbs:

[coinslab]

Yes, I have found a LOT of shards too but i left em there once even a whole pot handle and again left it there. As for the indian GPS it actually stands for gopher pillaging system. The gopher finds other indians sites they can pillage . :mrgreen: :mrgreen: . BTW the pot handle i found and left was made by the same culture that did Rochester Art Panel. There is a figure and a very well hidden city only I and a dead person knows about it, it's quite amazing.
Wait wait, if the basket was Fremont doesn't GPS stand for Goshute Poisoning System :five: ha ha

[asdf]

There is a figure and a very well hidden city only I and a dead person knows about it, it's quite amazing.


its not called Narnia is it?

[coinslab]

Maybe?? I got to it from my closet :lol8: I especially liked da goatmen that hopped by and the evil white cursed rabbit that lives in its ice den.
. No there's really one there. :nod: It's pretty sweet.

BTW, the goat man could have been summit42 :lol8: :lol8: you deserved that one.

[James_B_Wads2000]

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Hey coin, why did you delete this? Afraid the feds are going to come and get you? :haha:



James

[coinslab]

No, Bclee didn't like me posting his photo. While i was trying to find his rock art panel.