Englestead or Birch Hollow

[moab mark]

Have done birch hollow several times with scouts and then gone out orderville. Planning a trip for the first part of june. They want to due orderville. Have never done englestead is it alot better then Birch? I have a 300 ft. rope. But not real excited to haul all that rope down orderville. Those in the group haven't been down either. WOuld shuttle to the start of either.

Birch or Englestead?

Mark

[trackrunner]

I like Englstead and also Birch. But would choose Englstead down orderville over Birch down Orderville. Personally I only do Birch and exit out. Still would take Englstead down Orderville over Birch and out.

Can also do Orderville directly.

Are you taking scouts down Englstead? I only take experienced people down Englstead. There is the 300 ft rappel or breaking it up into smaller rappels from hanging bolt stations. Also there are many rappels from natural anchors with awkward starts. Need to be comfortable with that before going.

[moab mark]

No these are not scouts. They have all rappeled 300' before. I am not looking forward to the hike down the dry part of orderville. Have done that way to many times with scouts. Is the 300' what gives englestead the 4 rating?

Mark

[trackrunner]

No these are not scouts. They have all rappeled 300' before. I am not looking forward to the hike down the dry part of orderville. Have done that way to many times with scouts.

Yeah I'm not a big fan of Orderville because of that long boring dry hike. That's why I will never do Birch down Orderville becuae you get dropped out right at the head of Orderville. Englstead comes in right below the first rappel in Orderville. So you would hit the best parts of Orderville if exiting down.


Is the 300' what gives englestead the 4 rating?

Mark

Yes. Some give the rating if doing all 300' at once as a class 3, others rate it as a class 4 because the 300' is a step up from others. The 300' can be broken up into multiple rappels from the hanging rappel stations on the cliff wall. That is class 4.

[oldno7]

Mark
Englestead is a great route and considering you've all done Birch Hollow, it's almost a no-brainer to do Englestead. Some will call it cheating, but you can leave your 300' rope at the first rappel and come back and get it. It's a pretty good walk down and back to the first rap, so just bring some youth with you and make them pack it through the canyon.

[nat]

Personally I think Englestead is much better than Birch. A lot more "meat on the bone". Birch ends just as you're getting warmed up. Englestead is a longer slot with more stuff to work through. It also enters Orderville just as that canyon gets really good.

Nat


Have done birch hollow several times with scouts and then gone out orderville. Planning a trip for the first part of june. They want to due orderville. Have never done englestead is it alot better then Birch? I have a 300 ft. rope. But not real excited to haul all that rope down orderville. Those in the group haven't been down either. WOuld shuttle to the start of either.

Birch or Englestead?

Mark

[trackrunner]

Some will call it cheating, but you can leave your 300' rope at the first rappel and come back and get it.

I remember someone posted in the canyons e group last year that when they came back to get their rppe the next day it was stolen. Only stolen rope I've heard of at this drop.

Mark doing Englstead down Orderville is on my hit list. I exited up Orderville the only time doing Englstead.

Also remember there was snow bridges in that canyon during June last year. Someone posted pics and TR from a few weeks ago and there were snow bridges.

[Iceaxe]

Is the 300' what gives englestead the 4 rating?

The 4 rating in Englestead is because you are forced to do a 300' rappel or a hanging mid-wall station transfer. Outside of the entrance there is nothing difficult about Englestead.

We have always done the transfer because I hate packing weight. I've done the mid-wall station transfer with inexperianced canyoneers. We just belay them from the top until they are safely on the second rope. The transfer is 80' below the rim. There is a small 6" perch to stand on at the transfer so you are not hanging in space.

:cool2:

[taatmk]

I have done Birch before, but not Englestead yet. I found the hike down Birch and out Orderville to be fairly lengthy and obviously assume the out bound walk doing Englestead to be much less.

Question for those who know. is the 300 foot entry rap in Englestead all wall walking, or is there any free hanging portion(s) to it?

Thanks.

[Iceaxe]

Question for those who know. is the 300 foot entry rap in Englestead all wall walking, or is there any free hanging portion(s) to it?

Depends where you rappel in at... If you rappel using the anchors for the mid station (located 20' around the west side) it's all wall walking and no free hanging....

But.... a lot of folks entering with a 300' rope rappel in right down the beautifully fluted watercourse. I've never entered this way so someone correct me if I'm wrong.... but I believe its all wall walking and no free hanging....

:cool2:

[moab mark]

Is the 300' what gives englestead the 4 rating?


We have always done the transfer because I hate packing weight. I've done the mid-wall station transfer with inexperianced canyoneers. We just belay them from the top until they are safely on the second rope. The transfer is 80' below the rim. There is a small 6" perch to stand on at the transfer so you are not hanging in space.

:cool2:
So if it is a true 300' Rappeling to the perch 80' a 200' won't get you to the bottom? Haven't got a 220'. But carrying 600' does not sound fun. But either way seems like it is going to take alot of rope. Which shuttle in town can you hire to haul you out there. Hike to first rappel and haul your rope back to town. Now I am liking that idea. :2thumbs:

Mark

[trackrunner]

Question for those who know. is the 300 foot entry rap in Englestead all wall walking, or is there any free hanging portion(s) to it?

Thanks.

There was a free hanging portion from the tree on the left LDC. Most of it was vertical wall but somewhere past halfway it goes free hanging to the pothole. From the pothole it is all wall walking to the bottom. Be careful how you rig for friction at the freehanging. It can become quite fast there, but slow at the begining.

[trackrunner]

So if it is a true 300' Rappeling to the perch 80' a 200' won't get you to the bottom? Haven't got a 220'. But carrying 600' does not sound fun. But either way seems like it is going to take alot of rope. Which shuttle in town can you hire to haul you out there. Hike to first rappel and haul your rope back to town. Now I am liking that idea. :2thumbs:

Mark

It's not a true 300'. Think it's a 280 or 260' Most beta round it up to 300' since that is the next standard rope lenght for a drop that size.

[Iceaxe]

It's not a true 300'. Think it's a 280 or 260' Most beta round it up to 300' since that is the next standard rope lenght for a drop that size.

The complete rappel from top to bottom is over 285' using the standard mid stage route....

But there is a nice ledge about 20' short of the bottom with a bolt hidden in the corner if your rope is a little short..... or at least there was....

The mid wall bolt station to the ground was 205' last time I was there. We measured it. Most 60 meter ropes reach the ground with rope stretch. I have seen the bottom of the canyon raise and drop 5' at the entrance rappel depending on the amount of sediment deposited in the last storm.


:cool2:

[trackrunner]

It's not a true 300'. Think it's a 280 or 260' Most beta round it up to 300' since that is the next standard rope lenght for a drop that size.

The complete rappel from top to bottom is over 285' using the standard mid stage route....

But there is a nice ledge about 20' short of the bottom with a bolt hidden in the corner if your rope is a little short..... or at least there was....

The mid wall bolt station to the ground was 205' last time I was there. We measured it. Most 60 meter ropes reach the ground with rope stretch. I have seen the bottom of the canyon raise and drop 5' at the entrance rappel depending on the amount of sediment deposited in the last storm.


:cool2:

When I went in the fall of 2007 there are two lower bolt stations by the bowl shaped ledge/pot hole one was hanging bolt station and another where you can safley stand if you make it to the bowl. The 3 mid wall bolt stations are the only bolts in the canyon.

You might be right on the length. Know it was a little short of 300ft.

[ratagonia]

You might be right on the length. Know it was a little short of 300ft.

Wow, lots of confusion there ---

At the HEAD of Engelstead, the rappel is about 240 feet, down the chute. There is a big tree to anchor it from, please do not PULL it from there, and please do not leave a sling.

From the SIDE TREE in Engelstead, as a 2-stage, it is about 80 feet down to the two-bolt station in the corner, and then about 190 feet to the big ledge. There is a two-bolt station on the ledge that allows rapping 40' to the next big pothole ledge. There is a bolt station about 15 feet off the deck there on a tiny ledge - obviously, someone had a bad day!

From the SIDE TREE, as a single stage, it is almost exactly 300 feet to the lower big pothole ledge.

Longest rap elsewhere in the canyon is the flute rappel, about 120 feet.

Likely lots of snow and ice in there at this date.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

Tom,

On normal years when is the snow and ice gone?


As far as the first rappel. Anybody have some pictures of the different anchor spots?

Mark

[ratagonia]

Tom,

On normal years when is the snow and ice gone?


As far as the first rappel. Anybody have some pictures of the different anchor spots?

Mark

Normal year? What's a normal year? How about June 1 for snow gone.

The book, page ii, shows the rap down the watercourse.

What, you want it all mapped out for you? Big F Tree is not explicit enough? "At the head", look for the "Big F Tree", tie slings to it, then rig the rope to that. Move the rope after each rappeller. Run the rope over to the 'usual anchor' for the last two people (takes two people to move the rope).

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

and then about 190 feet to the big ledge.

That's exactly what my notes say.... except what you have listed as 190' I say is closer to 200'....

:cool2:

From my notes.....

Big Wall Entrance
The first section is a 80-foot rappel
The second section is a 200-foot rappel (we have had 60 meter climbing ropes come up a couple feet short on this section, even after streching. We skip the pothole on the ledge station and go all the way to the canyon floor)

After the Big Wall entrance
The third rappel is 40 feet
The fourth rappel is 30 feet
The fifth rappel is 110 feet

Your Milage May Vary.....

:popcorn:

[moab mark]

Tom,

On normal years when is the snow and ice gone?


As far as the first rappel. Anybody have some pictures of the different anchor spots?

Mark

Normal year? What's a normal year? How about June 1 for snow gone.

The book, page ii, shows the rap down the watercourse.

What, you want it all mapped out for you? Big F Tree is not explicit enough? "At the head", look for the "Big F Tree", tie slings to it, then rig the rope to that. Move the rope after each rappeller. Run the rope over to the 'usual anchor' for the last two people (takes two people to move the rope).

Tom :moses:

I guess when we get there it will make sense, but why are we not all just rappeling off of the first big F tree? Why are we moving the rope to another anchor?
Mark

[ratagonia]

I guess when we get there it will make sense, but why are we not all just rappeling off of the first big F tree? Why are we moving the rope?
Mark

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Don't tell anyone, mark, this is Tom's secret way of doing Engelstead.

There already is an established anchor which works well. Leaving webbing on the Big F Tree at the head would require a substantial piece of webbing, so I don't want me or you leaving more webbing there. That rappel also runs over a little sharp spot in the rock so it eats rope. (Then again, maybe I SHOULD publish that...).

I think the rap down the chute is very scenic, thus I offer it as a treat. But I do the pull from over at the other anchor, because the anchor is already there and already established.

You're moving the rope after each rappeller because the rope crosses a sharp spot, so you should move the abrasion point after each person, so you will get many rub spots, rather than one core shot.

Tom

[trackrunner]

You're moving the rope after each rappeller because the rope crosses a sharp spot, so you should move the abrasion point after each person, so you will get many rub spots, rather than one core shot.

Tom

Tom would placing temporary padding (back pack, rope condom, old piece of webbing around the rope, etc) help protect the rope, or would you still need to move the rope abrasion point.

thanks,

[ratagonia]

You're moving the rope after each rappeller because the rope crosses a sharp spot, so you should move the abrasion point after each person, so you will get many rub spots, rather than one core shot.

Tom

Tom would placing temporary padding (back pack, rope condom, old piece of webbing around the rope, etc) help protect the rope, or would you still need to move the rope abrasion point.

thanks,

The place where it rubs is not obvious. It only becomes obvious when you notice the glitch on the rope. On the 9mm Imlay rope, not much of a problem. The first TWO (I'm a slow learner) I used 8mm ropes, and they ended up with 6 core shots each, so my 300 foot rope became a 240 foot rope (twice).

So, yes. Could, but hard to figure out where the spot is, exactly.

Tom

[taatmk]

Curiosity question, since I have not been into Englestead.

If Tom's "secret" entry from the HEAD of the canyon off of the "Big F Tree" is more scenic, does not have the midwall switchover, takes a shorter rope and is a "flute" rappel (my personal favorite), why did it not get established as the "normal" entry and the SIDE tree did?

Are there advantages to the normal SIDE tree way, over the HEAD way?

Thanks

[taatmk]

Additional question: Is the midwall station only large enough for one? Thinking of the less experienced like a daugther in law....would there be room for another to hang out there and help her switch over?

[Iceaxe]

A little History on Englestead....

First person I knew of who did Englestead was Kip Marshall, he was not the first person to do the canyon. I now know some of the employees of the Zion Ponderosa were doing it before Kip. The ZP also guided the canyon for a while. I'm not sure if they still do. I first did the route with Dean Kurtz 5 days after Kips group did it.

The mid-station is considered the "normal" route because it was first published on Climb-Utah.com and we deemed it as such... and everyone else followed suit, which I consider a good thing as it avoids confusion for those who have not done the route before.

We called it the "normal" route because that is how we did it. The original beta we use only noted that route, And because you can do it using "standard" 60- meter ropes, which most canyoneers already own..

The route soon became popular and was done for a year or two and than some bright individual (Tom maybe?) got the smart idea to just bring a longer rope...

The ledge at the mid-station is about 6"x6", it's really small..... that being said... I once watched a group of 5 rappel to the mid-station, hang in harnesses, and than finish the wall.....

As a side note.... originally there was a second mid wall station about 10 yards down canyon from the one that now exists. Last time I was in Englestead the bolts for that station were still present but the hangers had been removed. That station had a bigger ledge but I never used it.

The mid-station transfer is not for beginners.... the direct approach is OK, for those with some rappeling experiance... but it's still long rappel for total noobs...

Anyhoo.... that's what I know...

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

Additional question: Is the midwall station only large enough for one? Thinking of the less experienced like a daugther in law....would there be room for another to hang out there and help her switch over?

The mid-wall station is big enough to park an experienced person at to assist the other people in changing over. Been there, done that, it works, but is a little hard on the assister.

T :moses:

[ratagonia]

Curiosity question, since I have not been into Englestead.

If Tom's "secret" entry from the HEAD of the canyon off of the "Big F Tree" is more scenic, does not have the midwall switchover, takes a shorter rope and is a "flute" rappel (my personal favorite), why did it not get established as the "normal" entry and the SIDE tree did?

Are there advantages to the normal SIDE tree way, over the HEAD way?

Thanks

Stare decisis, as Mr. Card would say. The route gets established that way, and...

Actually, its a good route. The side tree is in a very good spot for a clean pull with a short sling. At the head, the tree is 10 feet back from the edge, and requires a long sling. And this rappel eats ropes due to the ironstone edge about 10 feet down.

I also like the rap at the head, because I can set up 2 ropes and send 2 people down at a time. Really speeds things up, and gives me the comfort of having a 'rescue rope' already installed, should a rescue be required. Others are unlikely to be so cautious. The side tree really does not allow parallel rappelling, because there is some loose rock there, and some free-hanging sections. The head rappel is totally clean and with feet touching the wall for the whole way.

Tom

[ratagonia]

A little History on Englestead....

First person I knew of who did Englestead was Kip Marshall, he was not the first person to do the canyon. I now know some of the employees of the Zion Ponderosa were doing it before Kip. The ZP also guided the canyon for a while. I'm not sure if they still do. I first did the route with Dean Kurtz 5 days after Kips group did it.

The mid-station is considered the "normal" route because it was first published on Climb-Utah.com and we deemed it as such... and everyone else followed suit, which I consider a good thing as it avoids confusion for those who have not done the route before.

We called it the "normal" route because that is how we did it. The original beta we use only noted that route, And because you can do it using "standard" 60- meter ropes, which most canyoneers already own..

The route soon became popular and was done for a year or two and than some bright individual (Tom maybe?) got the smart idea to just bring a longer rope...

The ledge at the mid-station is about 6"x6", it's really small..... that being said... I once watched a group of 5 rappel to the mid-station, hang in harnesses, and than finish the wall.....

As a side note.... originally there was a second mid wall station about 10 yards down canyon from the one that now exists. Last time I was in Englestead the bolts for that station were still present but the hangers had been removed. That station had a bigger ledge but I never used it.

The mid-station transfer is not for beginners.... the direct approach is OK, for those with some rappeling experiance... but it's still long rappel for total noobs...

Anyhoo.... that's what I know...

:cool2:

Guided Engelstead would require a permit from the Park - not happening.

Tom

[ratagonia]

A little History on Englestead....

First person I knew of who did Englestead was Kip Marshall, he was not the first person to do the canyon. I now know some of the employees of the Zion Ponderosa were doing it before Kip. The ZP also guided the canyon for a while. I'm not sure if they still do. I first did the route with Dean Kurtz 5 days after Kips group did it.

The mid-station is considered the "normal" route because it was first published on Climb-Utah.com and we deemed it as such... and everyone else followed suit, which I consider a good thing as it avoids confusion for those who have not done the route before.

We called it the "normal" route because that is how we did it. The original beta we use only noted that route, And because you can do it using "standard" 60- meter ropes, which most canyoneers already own..

The route soon became popular and was done for a year or two and than some bright individual (Tom maybe?) got the smart idea to just bring a longer rope...

The ledge at the mid-station is about 6"x6", it's really small..... that being said... I once watched a group of 5 rappel to the mid-station, hang in harnesses, and than finish the wall.....

As a side note.... originally there was a second mid wall station about 10 yards down canyon from the one that now exists. Last time I was in Englestead the bolts for that station were still present but the hangers had been removed. That station had a bigger ledge but I never used it.


The "original route" was to traverse out to the bolt station on the ridge, and rap down there. It looks to be a cleaner line, and I think "X" from the ZP was worried about the rope getting stuck taking the direct route. When I went through, a few days after Ice, we did the traverse out to the ridge, with Scott Holley pulling transfer-assist duty, and I eyeballed the direct route and thought it would be a clean shot and pull well, even better than the ridge route. That first time, I placed one bolt at the bottom of that rappel, because our 200 foot rope did not make it to the lower ledge - and Ice and I have always been confused together by this.

Next trip down, we did the corner rap and it worked great. Very clean, no problems. Next trip after that, I traversed out to the bolt station on the ridge, and removed the hangers. On a subsequent trip, I backed up the single bolt on the ledge with a second bolt.


The ledge at the mid-station is about 6"x6", it's really small..... that being said... I once watched a group of 5 rappel to the mid-station, hang in harnesses, and than finish the wall.....

Hmmm, station is 80 feet down, second rap is 200 feet - I hope people here realize that this is pretty easy to set up so no one has to stay at the mid-rap station for more than a few minutes, or at most, one experienced person needs to park there to assist others. Unless, of course, you cannot fathom rapping single strand...

Crazy stuff, people do.

My opinion is that ZP kids set it up thinking they would guide it, with the usual "off the clock" at the Park Boundary BS. I doubt they ever actually guided it. ZAC has a permit for guiding it, but we cannot go INTO the Park, so unless the clients want to jug the ropes back out, it's not going to happen. Maybe we could get Bennet to make a boundary adjustment...

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

A little History on Englestead....

First person I knew of who did Englestead was Kip Marshall, he was not the first person to do the canyon. I now know some of the employees of the Zion Ponderosa were doing it before Kip. The ZP also guided the canyon for a while. I'm not sure if they still do. I first did the route with Dean Kurtz 5 days after Kips group did it.



Trip Reports:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/zcamp/english.htm

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0308eng/index.htm

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

My opinion is that ZP kids set it up thinking they would guide it, with the usual "off the clock" at the Park Boundary BS. I doubt they ever actually guided it.

Yes, ZP did actually guide Englestead and went "off the clock" at the park boundary. They also guided Orderville for a while. All my info on this is 2003 and earlier so I'm sure things have changed.

I once asked a certain knowledgeable Zion ranger about the ZP guiding and was told, "yeah we know they are bending the rules a little. But we also need to maintain good neighbor relations with the ZP as they control access to a large part of the park and could cause problems." That reasoning made sense to me so I dropped my concerns.

:popcorn:

[trackrunner]

How much of Englstead is in Zion? Looks like most of the canyon is outside of the park. Are there any technical sections located within the park? I know the exit into Orderville does not require a rappel.

[Iceaxe]

How much of Englstead is in Zion? Looks like most of the canyon is outside of the park. Are there any technical sections located within the park? I know the exit into Orderville does not require a rappel.

That's and old argument.... some say no tech, other say yes.... here is how I rate it.... if exiting down Orderville you need a permit. If exiting up Orderville give the park and their lousy permit system the finger.

:flipa:

[ratagonia]

How much of Englstead is in Zion? Looks like most of the canyon is outside of the park. Are there any technical sections located within the park? I know the exit into Orderville does not require a rappel.

There's a couple of mandatory rappels right near the end, so there definitely is some technical action inside the Park. Which is really beside the point, because ALL tributaries of the North Fork and Orderville inside the Park require a permit.

I have no opinion on minor smudges on the ridiculous permit system.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Yes, ZP did actually guide Englestead and went "off the clock" at the park boundary. They also guided Orderville for a while. All my info on this is 2003 and earlier so I'm sure things have changed.

I once asked a certain knowledgeable Zion ranger about the ZP guiding and was told, "yeah we know they are bending the rules a little. But we also need to maintain good neighbor relations with the ZP as they control access to a large part of the park and could cause problems." That reasoning made sense to me so I dropped my concerns.

:popcorn:

Also, management at Kanab BLM District changed in the last few years, and the former good-ol-boy agreement ZP had with the BLM became not so good. Now they actually have to comply with the same requirements as everyone else (at the BLM level). These areas are WSAs and are managed considerably tighter than under the good-ol-boy system.

Tom :moses:
Tom