To Slot Canyon or not To Slot Canyon?? need some advice

[cookiecutter]

First off, yes I'm a newbie to this forum and as a long time member of a snowmobile forum I know how annoying newbies can be, so I hope my question is not a laughable one, it is very serious to me.

I'm graduating high school and me and 3 other buddies, all 18 yrs old, are heading to Zion at the end of this month. One guy in our group has extensive knowledge in rock climbing and repelling, me and another guy have moderate experience (understand the basics, have been on local repelling trips) and the last of our group has very limited experience. All of us have lots of backpacking/camping/basic outdoor skills. NONE of us have done slot canyons. A neighbor of mine has been through Zion quite a bit and has been giving us ideas of day trips to go on, he insists with the knowledge and common sense that our group has we will be able to safely maneuver 3A/B canyons. He is a very knowledgeable guy but I would like a second opinion...

Based on the experience in our group would you think we would be safe in a 3A/B canyon??

I really appreciate all the help I'm doin my best to be as prepared as possible, and please be as honest. we want to be pretty safe but are open to a little risk.

Thanks,

CookieCutter

[Canyonbug]

One guy in our group has extensive knowledge in rock climbing and repelling, me and another guy have moderate experience (understand the basics, have been on local repelling trips) and the last of our group has very limited experience. All of us have lots of backpacking/camping/basic outdoor skills. NONE of us have done slot canyons. A neighbor of mine has been through Zion quite a bit and has been giving us ideas of day trips to go on, he insists with the knowledge and common sense that our group has we will be able to safely maneuver 3A/B canyons. He is a very knowledgeable guy but I would like a second opinion...

Based on the experience in our group would you think we would be safe in a 3A/B canyon??

Cookie, Welcome to the Canyoneering Forum.

Since I am awake I'll answer first before others chime in. For me I will tell you that your question poses a lot of difficulty and I am not going to give you a direct answer and I think anyone who does should have their advice seriously scrutinized.

The reason I say this is because for me to tell you to go for it and have a great trip based on what you have described over an Internet forum is practically impossible. You have certainly described some good qualities in your group, but the fact that you have not been in slot canyons with this group begs the question of how your group dynamics will actually play out in a canyon. Certainly a knowledge of climbing techniques will come in very handy as many techniques in rope work are taken from climbing, but have been modified. Simply knowing how to rappel (not reppel) is not the same as rappelling in a canyon, with wetsuits, backpacks etc. The fact that your group is competent in the outdoors does not mean you will be able to stem potholes or swim with all your gear on. If canyoneering is something that you are really going to be interested in there are several companies, some of which are right in the Zion area, that offer courses and intros to the sport.

Now before I rain on your parade too much. There are many canyons that can be tamed by the beginner and it varies on which canyons you do or are interested in. There are people (Tom) on this forum which can give you a better idea of which canyons in Zions those are than I. I simply want to let you know that the dynamics need to be considered before asking if we think you will survive a canyon or not. Make sure you are understanding the canyon ratings and what may be in those canyons.

[moab mark]

CookieCutter,

Welcome to the forum, just out of curiosty what canyons is your neighbor recomending you do?

Mark

[cookiecutter]

Canyonbug, I appreciate for help! and thanks for the spelling correction rappeling..

Your info is the kind I am looking for, I've scavenged the internet for the past months getting all the info I can before I stumbled onto this website last night, I love the person to person help!

We understand, though probably not to the extent of it, that slot canyons are a different world then say climbing the Grand Teton. The neighbor of mine has been going over the basics of slot canyons and the gear necessary but we understand it is no substitute for professional help.

I will talk with Tom as you suggested, is that his profile name?

Thanks!

CookieCutter

[cookiecutter]

Mark,

He told us with our skill set we have that mystery canyon would be doable (though current water flow rates I believe have closed this canyon??) also behunin canyon, and possibly ice box. He also suggested a day or two set aside for mountain biking at gooseberry mesa, but we all love mountain biking and are proficient at it so I think we'll be okay there.

Our plan was to do, if permits granted, 2-3 canyons (hopefully 3!), then mountain bike inbetween canyno trips.

CookieCutter

[James_B_Wads2000]

I think you are ready for Heaps. :2thumbs: No I am just kidding do not do Heaps, you will die.

Zion has a lot of great canyons with a lot of varying difficulty. You should start out with some tamer ones to get you into the "feel" of canyoneering. I would suggest getting a couple under your belt that are more hiking and scrambling then rope-work. Canyons like Orderville and Subway. Then do some of the ones with more rope work like Keyhole, Echo and Pine Creek.

Once you have mastered those, then I would suggest doing intermediate ones like Mystery, Behunin or Spry.

This is just my limited opinion, I am no expert. I defer to the masters... :hail2thechief:




James :popcorn:

[trackrunner]

I like and agree 100% with canyonbug's (Jared) advice. It is hard to tell over the internet.

3A/B is a wide range of canyons. There can be easy class 3 and difficult class 3 (even without the R or X rating).

I've seen some groups mess up the last rappel in Behunin. 150ft most of it free hanging and you can't see the bottom from the top. A friend messed up the throw. When he got to the free fall his rope was all tangled up and in the hanging trees on the cliff wall. He was skilled enough to lock off rappel, untangle and ropes, re lower the ropes correctly, and then continue on. This canyon could be OK for you with experienced leadership.

Some things to consider do you know: KISS (keep it simple stupid), advantages and disadvantages of double rope technique (DRT) and single rope technique (SRT), appropriate uses of a biner block, rig a contingency anchor, use a throw bag, when to throw your pull cord, how not to twist your rope (how not to twist the rope with a twisting descender like a figure 8 device), how to rig an anchor and have redundancy, how to rig a natural anchor, what the death triangle is and how not to set it up, advantages/disadvantages different ways to join two ropes, fireman belay, belay from the top, advantages/disadvantages and when not to use a self belay, test rope pull, how to free a stuck rope, when not to climb back up for a stuck rope, how to ascend (jumar) in emergancies.

I started out easy and simple, learned new skills as I went a long, learned from my mistakes, and learned for true experienced canyoneers.

In my opinion the easiest canyons to virgin noobs in Zion are the subway & orderville. Also Keyhole with wetsuits. Never jump, KISS by using the DRT & fireman belays. As you get more experienced and gain skills you can gradually branch out progressively to more difficult canyons and/or be lead in the difficult canyons by experienced canyoneers.

I would disagree with Icebox (aka waterfalls) as beeing virgin noob friendly. Also right now there are dangerous snow bridges in that canyon that need to melt out as reported on canyons groups site and cross posted on bogley.

Remeber to Have Fun!

[Cirrus2000]

Yep, I'd have to agree that in order to get started in Zion, Orderville and Keyhole are good ideas (I've never done the Subway... yet.) I think that it would be a good idea to work up to the technical difficulties.

Orderville is a long day of hiking with a couple of downclimbs and a rap or two. Keyhole is a great, short slot. Wear a wetsuit, do a couple of downclimbs and raps in a beautiful setting. Doesn't get much nicer - or much easier.

Going from these things into the more serious canyons in Zion - Mystery, Behunin, etc - is quite a leap in difficulty - or at least in consequence/exposure/length of rappels.

It would be an excellent idea to either go somewhere with a guide, or see if you can hook up with some (one or more) more experienced folks for a couple or few trips. I'm a firm believer in the concept of mentorship. (This is ironic coming from someone who does so many solo trips!)

[Canyonbug]

I will talk with Tom as you suggested, is that his profile name?


Tom Jones- Profile name is ratagonia. He is sure to chime in here sometime, he's like that lurking garden knome always ready to speak up with an honest word of advice :five:

Some great suggestions from others, more in depth than I gave. Just be cognoscente that although Canyoneering is often closely associated by the public as part of the climbing industry, it is an animal of a different sort and needs to be understood. Once the full scope of it is realized and skill sets are in order it can be a wonderful journey that you won't want to get off of.

Find some experienced canyoneers (not just weekend warriors) and glean as much knowledge from them as you can. Good luck and have fun.

[Jaxx]

You could look at the Bogley noobfest. No better time to get free instruction from some very knowledgeable peeps.

http://bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15843

[cookiecutter]

Man everyone, thanks so much!

If you haven't guessed already this will be our senior trip, our "last hoorah" if you will, before most of our core group of friends heads to college, jobs, etc..

From what I have gathered here is a possible updated plan while we are down there:

I do NOT want to rappel into a canyon where I will not see the bottom such as behunin, so cross that off the list.

Mystery canyon is closed due to flow rate, even if it is opened by the time I'm there I do NOT want to risk dangerous water conditions, so cross it off the list.

Monday, depending on which permit I can obtain, do orderville or subway, (or both as a monday tuesday thing) and after doing them take a serious look at our skill and performance in the canyons and see if we are up to something like a keyhole, echo, or pine creek (we have plenty of full body wet suits and one dry suit) and if we decide we are not ready then spend the rest of the week on hikes and mountain biking.

Sound Possible??

again, I appreciate the honest and upfront responses! This is a big deal for us, and possibly a once in a life time thing for all of us to be together before real life begins.

CookieCutter

[Iceaxe]

If you haven't guessed already this will be our senior trip, our "last hoorah" if you will, before most of our core group of friends heads to college, jobs, etc..

And to think.... I wasted my senior trip laying on a secluded Lake Powell beach surrounded by young topless women with low self esteem issues who were suffering the effects of alcohol..... :five:

AAhhhh.... the good ol' days..... :nod:

Maybe start with the Subway... healthy 18 y/o males should not have any problems in that canyon provided they use a little commonsense.....

I know... I know.... 18 y/o male and commonsense is an oxymoron.

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Mark,

He told us with our skill set we have that mystery canyon would be doable (though current water flow rates I believe have closed this canyon??) also behunin canyon, and possibly ice box. He also suggested a day or two set aside for mountain biking at gooseberry mesa, but we all love mountain biking and are proficient at it so I think we'll be okay there.

Our plan was to do, if permits granted, 2-3 canyons (hopefully 3!), then mountain bike inbetween canyno trips.

CookieCutter

Yeah, what he said. Icebox is 'pretty backcountry', meaning if you mess up in there, it could be quite a while before anyone shows up.

The starter canyons are the ones in the front of The Book, page 135 to 161, although as mentioned, people get messed up in Behunin quite often.

Rope Bags!

Helmets!

etc. Tom :moses:

[cookiecutter]

Thanks Tom! I have quite enjoyed myself looking through all the info on your website as well. We will be having good helmets too.

We will be down there from the 25th to 30th, I'm wondering how cold the water will be in keyhole. I understand its very cold requiring wet suits, but this early in the year is it a, "oh this is chilly, press on!" or a, "this is dead cold, but man up and push on" or a "this is tooo cold"...??

Thanks!

CookieCutter

[ratagonia]

Thanks Tom! I have quite enjoyed myself looking through all the info on your website as well. We will be having good helmets too.

We will be down there from the 25th to 30th, I'm wondering how cold the water will be in keyhole. I understand its very cold requiring wet suits, but this early in the year is it a, "oh this is chilly, press on!" or a, "this is dead cold, but man up and push on" or a "this is tooo cold"...??

Thanks!

CookieCutter

It is really not much fun without wetsuits. Word is it is a bit less swimming than usual, but still...

Tom

[cookiecutter]

Ok, we'll definitely bring wet suits with us. I really appreciate your knowledgeable help.

[cookiecutter]

I called Tom at his shop, as I needed my neoprene socks and his book shipped to me as quick as possible, and he went out of his way to make sure they would get here on wend. Well today is wend. and everything showed up as promised. Tom we really appreciate it!! If our canyoneering adventures continue beyond this next week (I'm sure they will) we will always be doing business with you.

[Cirrus2000]

I called Tom at his shop, as I needed my neoprene socks and his book shipped to me as quick as possible, and he went out of his way to make sure they would get here on wend. Well today is wend. and everything showed up as promised. Tom we really appreciate it!! If our canyoneering adventures continue beyond this next week (I'm sure they will) we will always be doing business with you. :2thumbs:

I've always been more than happy in my dealings with Tom. Prince of a guy, for an emperor...

[sarahlizzy]

A neighbor of mine has been through Zion quite a bit and has been giving us ideas of day trips to go on, he insists with the knowledge and common sense that our group has we will be able to safely maneuver 3A/B canyons. He is a very knowledgeable guy but I would like a second opinion...

Based on the experience in our group would you think we would be safe in a 3A/B canyon??

I really appreciate all the help I'm doin my best to be as prepared as possible, and please be as honest. we want to be pretty safe but are open to a little risk.

Thanks,

CookieCutter

Hi CookieCutter. I'm in a similar situation to you, being a relative newbie in a group of people who are relatively comfortable around rope and climbing harnesses. A bunch of us will be in Zion just after you this year. I and some others in our group have descended the Subway previously, after getting some basic instruction in a nearby slot canyon (from Zion Rock and Mountain, Zion Adventure Company offer instruction too, I believe). Since then we've been getting lots of practice at rigging rappels and suchlike, and this year are planning to do the Subway again, followed by Echo Canyon, Keyhole Canyon and Pine Creek. I think they're about our skill level, and have been told by many that they're a good introduction to technical stuff.

You mention Mystery - I can only speak for myself, but as someone with not much experience of technical slots, I think I'm happier to leave Mystery for another trip. I think that would be pushing my comfort zone a bit.

[Iceaxe]

You mention Mystery - I can only speak for myself, but as someone with not much experience of technical slots, I think I'm happier to leave Mystery for another trip. I think that would be pushing my comfort zone a bit.

Technically I think Mystery is easier than Pine Creek. None of the rappels in Mystery are free hanging and there is no swimming in Mystery (Pine Creek can have a lot of swimming). The final rappel in Pine Creek can be a little intimidating. I know I've backed off of it before to calm myself before taking the the "final step". But than again, I'm a pussy when it comes to rappels....

:cool2:

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/Files/pinecreek3.jpg

[moab mark]

You mention Mystery - I can only speak for myself, but as someone with not much experience of technical slots, I think I'm happier to leave Mystery for another trip. I think that would be pushing my comfort zone a bit.

Technically I think Mystery is easier than Pine Creek. None of the rappels in Mystery are free hanging and there is no swimming in Mystery (Pine Creek can have a lot of swimming). The final rappel in Pine Creek can be a little intimidating. I know I've backed off of it before to calm myself before taking the the "final step". But than again, I'm a pussy when it comes to rappels....

:cool2:

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/Files/pinecreek3.jpg

I'm with Ice on this one, Mystery is a bigger day but technically easier. The rappel at mystery falls has some exposure rigging it but thats about it.
As far as Pinecreek, rigging the cathedral rappel where the bolts are around the edge is attention getting. That last rappel at pine creek seems to get everyones attention. The way the bolts are on the edge and then just going over the edge. Me do not like it.

As Ice would say "your mileage may vary"

Mark

[ratagonia]

Technically I think Mystery is easier than Pine Creek. None of the rappels in Mystery are free hanging and there is no swimming in Mystery (Pine Creek can have a lot of swimming). The final rappel in Pine Creek can be a little intimidating. I know I've backed off of it before to calm myself before taking the the "final step". But than again, I'm a pussy when it comes to rappels....


I'm with Ice on this one, Mystery is a bigger day but technically easier. The rappel at mystery falls has some exposure rigging it but thats about it.
As far as Pinecreek, rigging the cathedral rappel where the bolts are around the edge is attention getting. That last rappel at pine creek seems to get everyones attention. The way the bolts are on the edge and then just going over the edge. Me do not like it.

As Ice would say "your mileage may vary"

Mark

I concur, Dr. Ice, Dr. Mark. Mystery presents few and straightforward technical challenges, and if you can fit it into your itinerary, you really should. Hard to get a permit for on weekends, otherwise not too bad.

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

Interesting indeed. I'd got it into my head that Mystery was the "next level up". I do expect to be extremely nervous around that last rap in Pine Creek (even if it is only 85 feet now :haha:), but I don't mind the free aspect of it - the lack of presence of a cliff tends not to bother me so much as the brief, "this isn't going to work and I'm going to die" moment I have right at the start any time I go over the edge.

But this thread has made me think a lot more seriously about doing Mystery. I have a question for the Zion regulars - what sort of time would I need to be at the permit window on Monday July 6th in order to have a reasonable chance of getting a permit for Tuesday 7th?

[Iceaxe]

the lack of presence of a cliff tends not to bother me so much as the brief, "this isn't going to work and I'm going to die" moment I have right at the start any time I go over the edge.


:lol8: yeah.... that's the feeling I sometimes get.



.

[trackrunner]

But this thread has made me think a lot more seriously about doing Mystery. I have a question for the Zion regulars - what sort of time would I need to be at the permit window on Monday July 6th in order to have a reasonable chance of getting a permit for Tuesday 7th?

Depends. Subway & Mystery are the two most popular canyons that people show up early morning hours to get a permit. You'll have better chances for a Tuesday over a weekend. But I've known people show up before 6am and still not get a permit for a weekday Mystery permit. But that was because the first group in line took all 6 walkin for Mystery. First 3 groups in line were trying to get Mystery.

YMMV

[Iceaxe]

One item that would improve your odds.... show up at 6am Monday morning and be willing to except Monday or Tuesday Mystery permits.

Who knows, you might get permits for Monday... you just never know with the worthless crappy permit system.

:cool2:

[cookiecutter]

Any idea on what the weather will be like next week. I hear chance of thunderstorm..anyone heard the same??

AH thunderstorms would kill our trip!

[sarahlizzy]

One item that would improve your odds.... show up at 6am Monday morning and be willing to except Monday or Tuesday Mystery permits.

Who knows, you might get permits for Monday... you just never know with the worthless crappy permit system.


Sadly, Monday is when we have Pine Creek permits - the only time we have two free days in a row is after the Subway, and I suspect we'll want to do something slow to recover after that, like Angels' Landing, the Narrows or the technically challenging Hot Tub. :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

Sadly, Monday is when we have Pine Creek permits

But Pine Creek permits are easy to get.... I've never missed getting one as a walk up in the morning... so I'm just saying... if you can get permits Monday and not Tuesday for Mystery you might want to go that route. And that same morning you could swap your Monday Pine Creek permits for Tuesday.... just food for thought....

Isn't the permit system wonderful.... :lol8:

...

[Jaxx]

Any idea on what the weather will be like next week. I hear chance of thunderstorm..anyone heard the same??

AH thunderstorms would kill our trip!

I would still go down and see what the weather is like the day of. I have had bad weather forecasts and gone anyway to beautiful weather. If it is raining then just do a non tech hike with the masses and enjoy the beautiful but crowded scenery. That is still funner that being at home doing chores.

[sarahlizzy]

But Pine Creek permits are easy to get.... I've never missed getting one as a walk up in the morning... so I'm just saying... if you can get permits Monday and not Tuesday for Mystery you might want to go that route. And that same morning you could swap your Monday Pine Creek permits for Tuesday.... just food for thought....

OK, that would work. Thanks for the tip!

[Stick]

One item that would improve your odds.... show up at 6am Monday morning and be willing to except Monday or Tuesday Mystery permits.

Who knows, you might get permits for Monday... you just never know with the worthless crappy permit system.


Sadly, Monday is when we have Pine Creek permits - the only time we have two free days in a row is after the Subway, and I suspect we'll want to do something slow to recover after that, like Angels' Landing, the Narrows or the technically challenging Hot Tub. :lol8:

If permits for Mystery are available Monday but not Tuesday I would still get the permits for Mystery and ask the rangers to release the permits you had for Pine Creek that day. You should have no trouble getting Pine Creek permits for Tuesday or any other day. You are out the $5 you spend to reserve the permit in the first place though...

But chances are the Mystery permits for Monday will be claimed on Sunday.

[ratagonia]

One item that would improve your odds.... show up at 6am Monday morning and be willing to except Monday or Tuesday Mystery permits.

Who knows, you might get permits for Monday... you just never know with the worthless crappy permit system.


Sadly, Monday is when we have Pine Creek permits - the only time we have two free days in a row is after the Subway, and I suspect we'll want to do something slow to recover after that, like Angels' Landing, the Narrows or the technically challenging Hot Tub. :lol8:

Mystery is not a physically demanding canyon, especially if you get a shuttle to the top. Makes a good "rest day" canyon. Pine Creek too - it only takes an hour or two or three - kinda restful.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

Myself, wife and buddy did mystery last year in about 5 hours. That was from when the shuttle dropped Us off. It goes pretty quick with a small group. Rappeling into the narrows is pretty awes.
If you can get a permit just move pinecreek. BUT DEFINITELY PAY FOR THE SHUTTLE.

Mark

[Scott P]

Personally, I wouldn't get a shuttle for Mystery.

The most scenic part of Mystery is the bottom end from Mystery Springs to the Narrows. I would say the second most scenic part is the hike from Zion Canyon up to Observation Point. If you did the shuttle you would miss that part.


Any idea on what the weather will be like next week. I hear chance of thunderstorm..anyone heard the same??

There are currently flash flood warnings out. Use caution. The backcountry desk should inform you of the forecast when you get your permit.

As said you can still do something non-tech even if the weather is bad. In fact, when the weather is bad in Zion, it is actually really interesting and with waterfalls spilling off the cliffs all over the place.

[ratagonia]

Personally, I wouldn't get a shuttle for Mystery.

The most scenic part of Mystery is the bottom end from Mystery Springs to the Narrows. I would say the second most scenic part is the hike from Zion Canyon up to Observation Point. If you did the shuttle you would miss that part.


Any idea on what the weather will be like next week. I hear chance of thunderstorm..anyone heard the same??

There are currently flash flood warnings out. Use caution. The backcountry desk should inform you of the forecast when you get your permit.

As said you can still do something non-tech even if the weather is bad. In fact, when the weather is bad in Zion, it is actually really interesting and with waterfalls spilling off the cliffs all over the place.

For those who don't know, Scott is a very strong, very energetic young man. Please consider this when incorporating his opinion.

Not being all that strong or all that young, I have done the hike up from the canyon once, and have done the shuttle many other times.

Had friends who drove to the top. Hiked the canyon, then realized that the keys for the bottom car were in the car at the top, so Steve hiked up to Observation Point and the trailhead AFTER doing the canyon, while his wife went into town for some R&R.

T :moses:

[oldno7]

I'm with Tom...
The hike up is right at 2400' of elevation gain. Just when you feel proud of yourself for such an accomplishment, you hit death gulley and immediately loose 1200' in a relatively short distance. Unless your in top physical shape(not me), get a shuttle

[sarahlizzy]

Presumably one can hire a 4WD taxi from Springdale, removing the need to drive back up there at the end of the day?

[moab mark]

Presumably one can hire a 4WD taxi from Springdale, removing the need to drive back up there at the end of the day?
Lots of shuttles, Zions Adventures is who we use. If you have two cars you can shuttle yourself. But it's time consuming. On Tom's statement I did Mystery with him one time and his demeanor changed greatly when we told him we were paying for the shuttle and not hiking the east rim trail. :nod:

Mark

[sarahlizzy]

Presumably one can hire a 4WD taxi from Springdale, removing the need to drive back up there at the end of the day?
Lots of shuttles, Zions Adventures is who we use. If you have two cars you can shuttle yourself. But it's time consuming. On Tom's statement I did Mystery with him one time and his demeanor changed greatly when we told him we were paying for the shuttle and not hiking the east rim trail. :nod:

Mark

Cool! Thanks. If we get a permit, I'll check them out.

[moab mark]

Presumably one can hire a 4WD taxi from Springdale, removing the need to drive back up there at the end of the day?

Oh I forgot, I would not consider them nice four wheel drive taxis. They are vans you hope the doors or wheels do not fall off before you get there. But still better than hiking. :2thumbs:

Mark

[Iceaxe]

I'm with Tom... No way I'm hiking up from the canyon bottom when I can hire a shuttle.... :moses:

Information on Zion Shuttles
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/trailheadshuttle.htm

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Presumably one can hire a 4WD taxi from Springdale, removing the need to drive back up there at the end of the day?

Oh I forgot, I would not consider them nice four wheel drive taxis. They are vans you hope the doors or wheels do not fall off before you get there. But still better than hiking. :2thumbs:

Mark

Zion Adventure Company is no longer a booking agent for "Rich's Pretty Good Jalopey Shuttle Company", but instead, are managing the shuttles ourselves. Our vehicles are all fully functional, including doors that open and close and stay closed, as expected.

Unfortunately, the shuttle need to be booked in advance, which means you want the permit in hand before your book your shuttle. Which means, of course, getting the permit for the same day and then getting a shuttle is very difficult...

Tom

[moab mark]

Presumably one can hire a 4WD taxi from Springdale, removing the need to drive back up there at the end of the day?

Oh I forgot, I would not consider them nice four wheel drive taxis. They are vans you hope the doors or wheels do not fall off before you get there. But still better than hiking. :2thumbs:

Mark

Zion Adventure Company is no longer a booking agent for "Rich's Pretty Good Jalopey Shuttle Company", but instead, are managing the shuttles ourselves. Our vehicles are all fully functional, including doors that open and close and stay closed, as expected.

Unfortunately, the shuttle need to be booked in advance, which means you want the permit in hand before your book your shuttle. Which means, of course, getting the permit for the same day and then getting a shuttle is very difficult...

Tom

On another positive note if you get one of the girls from Zions that drive the shuttles. They are nicer looking and more friendly than the jalopey shuttle company employees. :nod:

Mark

[sarahlizzy]

Zion Adventure Company is no longer a booking agent for "Rich's Pretty Good Jalopey Shuttle Company", but instead, are managing the shuttles ourselves. Our vehicles are all fully functional, including doors that open and close and stay closed, as expected.

Unfortunately, the shuttle need to be booked in advance, which means you want the permit in hand before your book your shuttle. Which means, of course, getting the permit for the same day and then getting a shuttle is very difficult...


Doors that stay closed - v. good *nodnod*

If we do end up getting the same day, I guess we'll just have to have our character built by hiking up there. Have hiked to Observation Point a few times, although never carrying 300 feet of rope...

[ratagonia]

Our vehicles are all fully functional, including doors that open and close and stay closed, as expected.

Unfortunately, the shuttle need to be booked in advance, which means you want the permit in hand before your book your shuttle. Which means, of course, getting the permit for the same day and then getting a shuttle is very difficult...


Doors that stay closed - v. good *nodnod*

If we do end up getting the same day, I guess we'll just have to have our character built by hiking up there. Have hiked to Observation Point a few times, although never carrying 300 feet of rope...

Yeah, folks seem to like that... :ne_nau:

but, on the other hand... looking at the calendar, Pn June 29th we have a Chamberlain Ranch shuttle going at 9:30 am, which you could probably get on with short notice. It would give you kind of a late start, but, the canyon is not all that long, really, and the days are quite long, that time of year. Might work well for ya if you are jet-lagged in that direction...

Tom :moses: