Bad Bolts in Rock of Ages

[Iceaxe]

I

[oldno7]

Thanks for the heads up. :mrgreen:

[DWayne27]

Is this at the final rappel? The old pitons that were already there that were somewhat questionable, or are their new questionable bolts?

[moab mark]

Devin,

Some one has placed bolts on the wall by where you rappeled off of that cedar tree. Someone also took the webbing I had placed around the cedar tree at the big arch and re rigged it and then placed a bolt under the tree to tie into the webbing. Kurt has a picture, maybe he can post it. This has all happened in the last 10 days. I would post some pictures but someone left his camera in the console of his jeep in moab. :frustrated:



Mark

[oldno7]

Might want to add that there is a plethora of poison Ivy on the lower trail sections, some un-avoidable.

[oldno7]

Heres the new bolt's and Mark and I fixed the last rappel anchor so you don't need to rappel off of a single piton loaded in tension.

[Iceaxe]

A couple of thoughts....

On the whole I'm extremely happy with how the canyoneering community is handling the bolting vs natural anchor issue on the Colorado Plateau. 10 years ago everything was getting bolted, and usually very poorly. The canyons were becoming a major mess with bolt gardens springing up at every drop. Anyone who canyoneer in the "good old days" will tell you things are 100 times better now than they were 10 years ago.

The gray breads have done a great job of educating those entering the sport as to when it is appropriate to place bolts. Those following the gray breads have done a great job in teaching noob's as to when bolts are appropriate. The canyoneering community has done a great job of policing its self.

Unfortunately some people will never get the message. The best we can do as a community is to keep educating and remove unsafe or inappropriate bolts.

Education is the key!

:soapbox:

[moab mark]

On the picture of the big cedar tree. When I first did that rappel there was not any webbing on the tree. There were several rope grooves around the tree. You can see where the bark had been beaten up. Where the bark is beat up I wrapped 2 pulled 1 and put an overhand in the end. Seemed good to Us. I assume they moved it up the tree to get a better pull? But when you look at the tree it could possibly split the branch off. I assume this is why they added the bolt as a back up. The bolt is connected to the rapide with 6 mm cord.

For education purposes does anyone have a positive reason why someone would place a bolt right under a tree of that size?

On the new bolts. I asume whoever placed them did not climb over the rock pile and see the cedar tree? But regardless they are placed about 8 ft or so off of the ground. Drilling them by hand or cordless drill would of been hard. They placed them so that you are trying to pull them out of the wall on rappel. They could of gone up about 4 more ft and placed them on the top of that wall. It is easy to get on top.

So like the last one any reason why someone would place them there. Also why the long webbing?

Mark

[trackrunner]

For education purposes does anyone have a positive reason why someone would place a bolt right under a tree of that size?

No

[Iceaxe]

No

:lol8:

Yeah.... that one had me scratching my head.... but, I see a lot of really bizzare bolts in Moab. Reminds my a lot of Zion before the canyoneers started to police themselves and the routes they used.

Moab gets a lot of gym climbers and top ropers.... they just don't know any better. They finally get a day out to play adult on some real rock and don't know how to act. :haha:

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

From Scott P....

And.... if anyone else is having trouble logging in clean your cookies. If you need help Acca posted a thread at the top of the General Section.



I don't know if it related (sounds like it could be, but a bunch of poorly placed bolts are popping up in the Swell and Roost as well. They aren't high quality and appear to be bought from a cheap hardware store. The ones we found in the Swell were loose and I noticed that the washers used were bent over. I geve the chain a good yank and pulled it out with my bare hands. It appears by looking at some Bogely photos on a TR that the same group replaced the crappy bolts with more crappy ones. Anyway, could one or just a few groups doing this.

.

[Scott P]

Thanks Shane.

Anyway, in my post below and the chain I pulled out with my bare hands was in Baptist in May 2008.

From French's TR, it looks like they have been replaced in the same manner/materials (there were two last year):

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17001

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/bd0093.jpg

Anyway, judging from what I saw last year, I would test them before using them. As mentioned I pulled the chain off one of them with my bare hands.

[ratagonia]

Thanks Shane.

Anyway, in my post below and the chain I pulled out with my bare hands was in Baptist in May 2008.

From French's TR, it looks like they have been replaced in the same manner/materials (there were two last year):

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/bd0093.jpg

Anyway, judging from what I saw last year, I would test them before using them. As mentioned I pulled the chain off one of them with my bare hands.

What canyon is this "lovely" (NOT) anchor from???

Tom

[Iceaxe]

What canyon is this "lovely" (NOT) anchor from???


If I understand things correctly.... that abortion posing as an anchor is the final rappel out of Baptist Draw and into Chute Canyon.

Looks like we have anther Noob or group of noobs intent on "improving" several classic routes.

:cool2:

[oldno7]

What canyon is this "lovely" (NOT) anchor from???


If I understand things correctly.... that abortion posing as an anchor is the final rappel out of Baptist Draw and into Chute Canyon.

Looks like we have anther Noob or group of noobs intent on "improving" several classic routes.

:cool2:

I feel safer just looking at it.............. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

I feel safer just looking at it.............. :haha:

I think we need to add more webbing.... and knots.... lets tie lots more knots....

:five:

[Scott P]

What canyon is this "lovely" (NOT) anchor from???

If I understand things correctly.... that abortion posing as an anchor is the final rappel out of Baptist Draw and into Chute Canyon.

Correct.

For those interested, here was my original post to the Canyons Group on the situtation (slightly edited):

The only bolts I've "chopped" were done so with my bare hands. Some groups is putting extremely bad and poorly placed bolts in the swell. The latest ones I pulled the washers out with my bare hands with a gentle tug. These were in upper Chute Canyon (actually Baptist near the Chute Junction). Since I didn't have a wrench I didn't remove the entire dangerous bolt, but hope someone did (I posted on the canyons group). Same group (?) is putting the same bolts in other canyons in the Swell as well. Similar ones were found in the Black Box and a few other canyons. They are just hardware "bolts" with no hangars and they only use washers.

[Iceaxe]

I have been told (by Ram) the bolts at the last rappel in Rock of Ages have been reworked.... If I understand things correctly.... the bolts under the ledge have been removed and you must now use the scary "lean too" bolts on the platform just below the rim.

[Brian in SLC]

On There were several rope grooves around the tree. You can see where the bark had been beaten up. Where the bark is beat up I wrapped 2 pulled 1 and put an overhand in the end....
For education purposes does anyone have a positive reason why someone would place a bolt right under a tree of that size?

Well, one reason is kinda contained in your prior comment about that tree: the bark is beat up. Sooner or later, that tree will die. Folks place bolts (right or wrong), to save trees from dying. Top side cliff ecology is a study unto its own, but, in several locations in Illinois, for example, they've banned climbing altogether because the cliff top trees (etc) are dying (etc). Had their been reasonable fixed anchors to use instead of folks using and killing the trees, there would be a fair chance folks could still climb at those locations.

I guess I wonder if folks think these big mature trees are expendable or not, with regard to anchoring. I guess once they die, they'll fall over and leave a really big hole where you could bury a pack or something (ha ha).

Curious about this photo:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28555&stc=1&d=1241701473

Confusing, but, which side do you rappel on? Shouldn't the block and the knot be on the same side of the rapide/ring? Just looks strange to me.

I hate washer stacks. Don't mind chain, but, I hate washer stacks. Hangers are so cheap (what, 2 bucks?). Ugly looking examples of poorly done anchors. Whoever did that should be embarrassed.

Brian in SLC
(not bolt averse, but, man them are fugly anchors)

[ratagonia]

Curious about this photo:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28555&stc=1&d=1241701473

Confusing, but, which side do you rappel on? Shouldn't the block and the knot be on the same side of the rapide/ring? Just looks strange to me.

Brian in SLC
(not bolt averse, but, man them are fugly anchors)

This is set up as a contingency anchor, using two ropes of 1X length. For example, a 100 foot rappel using two 120 foot ropes. The contingency is set up above the knot, so a full length of rope is available for lowering. The final rappeller would re-set the rope to allow pulling.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

This is set up as a contingency anchor, using two ropes of 1X length. For example, a 100 foot rappel using two 120 foot ropes. The contingency is set up above the knot, so a full length of rope is available for lowering. The final rappeller would re-set the rope to allow pulling.

Ahh, makes total sense now. The configuration of the biner on the figure eight had/has me a bit confused too, but, just the way those folks rigged it.

Thanks!

[trackrunner]

This is set up as a contingency anchor, using two ropes of 1X length. For example, a 100 foot rappel using two 120 foot ropes. The contingency is set up above the knot, so a full length of rope is available for lowering. The final rappeller would re-set the rope to allow pulling.

Tom :moses:

beat me to it. with this set up you don't have to pass a knot to lower the full (or majority) range of the rappel if needed.

I did have a partner one time not rest the block in a similar set up from the picture. I was nice and offered any piece from my ascending gear to help him get back up to the top of a flowing snow melt waterfall :cold: rappel. :haha: I did get some cool pictures

[oldno7]

This is set up as a contingency anchor, using two ropes of 1X length. For example, a 100 foot rappel using two 120 foot ropes. The contingency is set up above the knot, so a full length of rope is available for lowering. The final rappeller would re-set the rope to allow pulling.

Tom :moses:

What Tom said, Mark and I rigged this. The anchor here is a branch about 6" in diameter at the top of this 2" crack. There was never a need for pitons(very poorly placed) or bolts.
I guess some just don't see the fun in a "challenge" of building natural anchors. Nor do they understand the improved safety of some natural anchors vs. drilled pitons or bolts.
Just because drops are bolted, doesn't mean they were bolted right, nor does it mean they are always the safest system. This pic is a prime example of that.

[oval]

Just because drops are bolted, doesn't mean they were bolted right, nor does it mean they are always the safest system. This pic is a prime example of that.

Sorry, what isn't safe about these bolts? I can't see anything wrong with the bolts from the picture.

Thanks

ps- what about this last rappel requires a contingency? Why did you elect for it in this case?

[oldno7]

Sorry, what isn't safe about these bolts? I can't see anything wrong with the bolts from the picture.

Thanks

ps- what about this last rappel requires a contingency? Why did you elect for it in this case?

I don't know................
We didn't use them, they would load on tension.(the angle of the rappel is towards where I took the picture, not straight down as indicated by the webbing.)
Also there is an access issue with anchors, this one requires you to be on your knees to get on rappel. It also left no room for contingencies, ie. working a raise or lower. The anchor Mark and I built, addressed all of these issues, and took maybe 10 minutes.
When is a contingency ever a bad idea?( I can set up this system in under 30 seconds)
It allows for...everything, to not go right.:mrgreen:

[oldno7]

Oval
To further clarify the positioning of the pitons, I think you can see them or the webbing hanging from them in this picture. Hope that helps.(middle, right hand side)

[moab mark]

One of my buddies told me the pitons had been pulled out? The above picture was taken by me or OLD # 7 when we did ROA. The webbing is going up thru a crack right behind the scary pitons with a log as the anchor. It is a much nicer start to the rappel but we need a solid log. The one we used was so so. The log and webbing is gone now. If Ram is talking about the bolts on the vertical wall, they have been gone for awhile?

Mark

[oval]

Ah, I see. I thought you were talking about the bolts in the second from last picture in post #6. Those drilled pins don't look good, agreed.

Interesting to always use a contingency; I'm always of the mindset KISS, and only set up stuff like that if I think it's needed, but to each their own, practice does make perfect :D

[ratagonia]

Ah, I see. I thought you were talking about the bolts in the second from last picture in post #6. Those drilled pins don't look good, agreed.

Interesting to always use a contingency; I'm always of the mindset KISS, and only set up stuff like that if I think it's needed, but to each their own, practice does make perfect :D

Setting up the contingency is very simple, if you do it often enough. If you do it EVERY time, it becomes extremely simple.

Tom

[oval]

Simple, but not more simple than a block. I like the reasoning that doing it all the time makes it second nature, but I don't like wasting the time to set it up, then have someone to pull it out if it isn't necessary. To each their own :D

[Iceaxe]

Simple, but not more simple than a block.

If you want simple then you just thread the rope and go, skip the block completely - DRT. :party:

[oval]

Hehe!

[Brian in SLC]

Setting up the contingency is very simple, if you do it often enough. If you do it EVERY time, it becomes extremely simple.

Yeah, and if someone forgets to undo it every time, they get to jug back up and undo it?

I think it makes sense for groups that have folks not saavy at rappelling, and, certainly makes sense for high water flow, where getting stuck on rappel could be very bad. But, as something to deploy amongst a small, experienced group?

[moab mark]

You would not have to jug back up. The Contingency will pull down just like a biner block. IMO I could be wrong but most small experienced groups do not use them alot. We don't,we use a biner block, with a secondary rope at the top or use what is left in the bag to resolve an issue if it occurs.

Mark

[ratagonia]

Yeah, and if someone forgets to undo it every time, they get to jug back up and undo it?


I've only done that once, so I don't have to do it again!

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

I've only done that once, so I don't have to do it again!

Tom :moses:

A ha! That's one them young (expendable) kids are for...


You would not have to jug back up. The Contingency will pull down just like a biner block.


You can't pull it down if there's a big friggin' knot on that side of the rapide (see photo above).

But, yeah, if you had a shorter drop that just required a doubled single rope... Now you have the added bonus of rappelling on the wrong side of the contingency anchor, and/or forgettin' to take the quick draw (or whatever back up) from the anchor...

Easy to blow a double rope rappel too. Glad I double check my rig before casting off...(not having both bites of rope through the ATC on a doubled rappel on a single rope is not so good).

Cheers on a Friday afternoon!

[Spidey]

Simple, but not more simple than a block. :D

I've timed myself rigging both, a releasable eight, and a Biner block. Releasable eight is just as fast.

[JohnBraun]

I have been told (by Ram) the bolts at the last rappel in Rock of Ages have been reworked.... If I understand things correctly.... the bolts under the ledge have been removed and you must now use the scary "lean too" bolts on the platform just below the rim.

Not sure how "new" this info is. I only descended ROA for the first time in early October...

There are the two "lean to" bolts on the right just below the rim. Above that, however, is a fairly new bolt just below an ephedra bush. The ephedra bush bolt can be used to set up a safety line to the "lean to" bolts.

By the way, this might be the best canyon in the Moab area, IMHO.

[moab mark]

[http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=37581&stc=1&d=1285167643

[Iceaxe]

From what I've been told recently....

The old pitons are gone.

The "lean to" bolts which have been around for a least a couple of years just below the rim are still in place and are now the default rappel anchors. There has been a third bolt placed back by the bush (downclimb to the second level) to protect you from dying when you "lean to"....

IMHO.... the bolted anchors at this location suck! While the rope pull from the anchors is excellent, just about everything else about the current bolted anchors totally blows..... if you are going to bolt at least do a marginally descent job of it. This is one of my bitches about bolt anchors.... the location of these anchors suck and its now a really big job to fix this area properly.... either that or you can just slam in more bolts and enjoy your new bolt garden....

So how about one of you fellas that believe bolting is the best and safest method go and fix this correctly for the rest of us?

[ratagonia]

Any problem just using natural anchors at this location???

Tom

[canyondevil]

So it appears that the biggest issue here is that the new bolts appear to be unsafe? It is assumed that they were placed by a noobie, or possibly someone experienced in canyons but doesnt know jack about placing bolts. Having never placed a bolt myself, and not ever planning to, I would not know how to safely install them either. But in a situation where my life depended on it, how would I go about learning the proper technique of placing one? Whether we like it or not, there are always going to be those people who insist on making the route safer (or easier) so shouldnt we at least educate them on how to do it safely so that the next poor suckers to come along dont get hurt? Just a thought.

CD

[Brian in SLC]

IMHO.... the bolted anchors at this location suck! While the rope pull from the anchors is excellent, just about everything else about the current bolted anchors totally blows..... if you are going to bolt at least do a marginally descent job of it. This is one of my bitches about bolt anchors.... the location of these anchors suck and its now a really big job to fix this area properly.... either that or you can just slam in more bolts and enjoy your new bolt garden....

So how about one of you fellas that believe bolting is the best and safest method go and fix this correctly for the rest of us?

You (or anyone) got a photo of that anchor? I'd be curious to know more on why this anchor is bad.

I think its fairly hard to bolt sandstone well. Such soft rock. Really hard to rig an anchor that won't groove out with rope pulls, too.

Glue-ins are so spendy.

Its actually fairly hard to do any bolting and anchoring well. Its a talent and, not everyone will always agree on anchoring (natural or not). Pretty hard to get it right the first, or, even second time.

Sounds like a neat canyon. Fairly doable in the winter, ie, say, early December? I need to get another canyon day (my short swing at Pleades earlier this year almost doesn't count...almost...ha ha).

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

But in a situation where my life depended on it, how would I go about learning the proper technique of placing one?

There's a fair amount of good online info. Try www.safeclimbing.org (http://www.safeclimbing.org) and fish around there for some bolting tips. Then, get mentored, pay attention, and, find a drive way boulder and practise yourself.

I've studied it a fair bit. Gone so far as to bolt a number of small rocks, install anchor, then crack them in two to see how a bolt works in a drilled hole. Also have poured over the testing stuff out there. Fair amount of it. Bushwalkers, the DAV, some guys in the south, etc. Where they've tried different bolting methods and hauled a load cell out to evaluate them. Pretty interesting stuff. And, still, its easy to screw up.

Even very experienced bolters are constantly evaluating their methods and equipment. The ASCA is a fairly good source of info. We have a "go to" guy here in the Wasatch that rebolts for the ASCA that is super experienced at yanking old anchors, and, installed up to snuff new ones. Mike. He's a talent for sure.

A guy in the Moab area that has done a bunch of anchor stuff is Sam Lightener. Good source for sandstone bolting. His deal is mostly climbing routes, though.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC
(well over 100 bolts installed this year...and counting...ha ha)

[Iceaxe]

Any problem just using natural anchors at this location???

There is no shining reason for this drop to be bolted.... you could make the argument the route is becoming one of the most popular and most visited in Moab so maybe.... yada, yada...

This route is guided by several companies in Moab, which is where I think the bolts came from. Some guides like bolts because it makes their life simple. The upper rappel (which is a mediocre downclimb) has also recently (within the past year) been bolted.

Whomever placed the bolts did a good job with the bolts, its just that the location of the bolts at the final rappel suck for "recreational canyoneers", the location is extremely exposed unless proper precautions are taken. I can actually see why a commercial guide might like them where they are, you could really herd the clients through the rappel like cattle when its all setup properly and running.


Whether we like it or not, there are always going to be those people who insist on making the route safer (or easier) so shouldnt we at least educate them on how to do it safely so that the next poor suckers to come along dont get hurt? Just a thought.

I'm with you on this one.... If you are going to place bolts at the very least do a good job of it.....

But to assume that bolts are inherently safer then natural anchors is a common mistake many noobs fall victim to. The anchor, bolted or natural, is only as good as the person that placed it. I'm always amazed when a noob thinks a bolt is safer then webbing around a car sized boulder or giant tree.

[Iceaxe]

You (or anyone) got a photo of that anchor? I'd be curious to know more on why this anchor is bad.

I don't have a picture but I can give you a reasonable idea.... I would call the bolts at the Mystery Springs rappel in Zion mildly exposed... I would call the bolts at the end of ROA very exposed... you have to stand on a sloping surface with poor hand holds and reach way out over a 100' straight drop to get to the rope and bolts.

It's a noobie route.... and noobs are sucked to bolts without thinking.... and I just have a bad feeling someone is going to take flying lessons reaching for the bolts without properly tying in first.... anyhoo... that's my reasoning....

[Brian in SLC]

I don't have a picture but I can give you a reasonable idea.... I would call the bolts at the Mystery Springs rappel in Zion mildly exposed... I would call the bolts at the end of ROA very exposed... you have to stand on a sloping surface with poor hand holds and reach way out over a 100' straight drop to get to the rope and bolts.

It's a noobie route.... and noobs are sucked to bolts without thinking.... and I just have a bad feeling someone is going to take flying lessons reaching for the bolts without properly tying in first.... anyhoo... that's my reasoning....

Yeah, enough to give you a cold chill...scary.

[oldno7]

This is a very easy rappel to set up with a natural anchor.
When I establish an anchor on my own, I also take into account--(among many things) can I easily and safely effect a lower or haul from this area?(if possible)
At this rappel, someone would be hard pressed to help another, stuck on a rope from the bolted position.
The way Mark and I had it set up, was both safe and accessible for everything and natural.
This rappel goes free for the last 60' or so, a great place for a beginner to invert and become stuck. imo.
But hey-----nothing ever goes wrong.

[John Peterson]

Did Rock of Ages this past weekend. As previously mentioned, the pins at the top of the last rap have been pulled, and there is the single bolt by the bush that you can use to protect the bolt anchor on the face below. There is a sizable cairn anchor up top that we used instead, and backed it up with the single bolt by the bush. The guide behind us was pretty excited about cleaning our webbing and threw it down to us. We were planning on leaving it but he said he would either throw it to us or keep it for himself.

So here's my question - what are the ethics behind leaving webbing/quicklink at a natural anchor? If there is a way to set a retrievable anchor around this cairn, it's beyond my current skill level. I don't go around and clean the guide companies' webbing as I go all around Moab, so I was left confused. What's the correct answer here?

[canyoncaver]

The correct answer is: Bolts = bad. Pitons = bad. Cairns = bad. Webbing = bad. You will now be expected to do all canyons anchorless. It's the new ethos. :cool2:

If it makes you feel better, I leave webbing and quicklinks behind all the time. My safety trumps anybody elses wilderness fantasies. Every time. Period.

[ratagonia]

Did Rock of Ages this past weekend. As previously mentioned, the pins at the top of the last rap have been pulled, and there is the single bolt by the bush that you can use to protect the bolt anchor on the face below. There is a sizable cairn anchor up top that we used instead, and backed it up with the single bolt by the bush. The guide behind us was pretty excited about cleaning our webbing and threw it down to us. We were planning on leaving it but he said he would either throw it to us or keep it for himself.

So here's my question - what are the ethics behind leaving webbing/quicklink at a natural anchor? If there is a way to set a retrievable anchor around this cairn, it's beyond my current skill level. I don't go around and clean the guide companies' webbing as I go all around Moab, so I was left confused. What's the correct answer here?

At Zion Adventure Company, we have a few canyons we guide that are not used by recreational canyoneers much. So we take a great interest in having them left in the way that works best for us and the experience we wish to facilitate for the guests, which for us usually means with as little webbing as possible. At other times, this means with the anchors rigged a very particular way.

Both of our main locations we use for over 500 trips a year.

If you choose a different anchor and/or leave new webbing, I have no objection to your choice (if safe), but I am likely to remove the webbing at the earliest opportunity, which may be immediately after you rappel. I have plenty of webbing, so I would try to return the webbing (and ring) to you if convenient.

A more general ethic for trade route canyons is that the canyon should be left well-rigged. So even if I can do a retrievable anchor of some kind, I would probably not in Pine Creek, Behunin, Spry or Rock of Ages. Leaving the canyon well-rigged is a courtesy to those who come after you, especially clueless noobs who might not figure things out on their own. You can, of course, use retrievables in trade route canyons. It is good to practice skills, so when you need them, they are well-oiled.

In trade route canyons, it is also courteous to re-rig anchors to bring them up to grade. This usually involves removing numerous "circus-tent" colored layers of sling, and tying in one grey or black piece from the stuff you brought along. If you do not have the skills to re-rig the anchors, then you are rolling the dice everytime you go out, and acquiring those skills would be a good idea.

In non-trade-route canyons, it is best to leave as little as possible. Remove excess and garish-colored webbing. Use retrievable anchors where you can, and remove a rigged anchor if you can (maybe).

What canyons you consider trade and non-trade is, of course, a matter of judgment.

There are also high-visibility/high-sensitivity canyons where retrievable anchors should be used. Some in Moab/Arches, and for instance Cassidy Arch Canyon in Cap Reef, where a retrievable anchor is de rigueur because it is right at a popular tourist destination. One can also use a TARA here.

Tom

[ratagonia]

The correct answer is: Bolts = bad. Pitons = bad. Cairns = bad. Webbing = bad. You will now be expected to do all canyons anchorless. It's the new ethos. :cool2:

If it makes you feel better, I leave webbing and quicklinks behind all the time. My safety trumps anybody elses wilderness fantasies. Every time. Period.

:strawman: bzzzzt. Fallacious.

My Wilderness Fantasy has never included you increasing your risk.

:moses:

[Iceaxe]

I wish someone would pull those "lean-too" bolts over the abyss.... they are going to get someone killed.

Between the lean-too bolts and the old pitons I much preferred anchoring from the old pitons. I think someone pulled the wrong anchors.

:cool2:

[canyoncaver]

:strawman: bzzzzt. Fallacious.

My Wilderness Fantasy has never included you increasing your risk.

:moses:

Ah, the damn strawman again. I hate him.

FWIW, the first line of my post was meant almost totally in jest. Not even a smiley helped me get that across this time. I suppose sarcasm is just a lost cause on internet bulletin boards. A sad comment on our times.

As for the second line, I clearly stated "anybody else's wilderness fantasies." If your wilderness fantasies do not apply, then no objection need be taken on your part.

I do appreciate you explaining why a guide may have other reasons for removing John's webbing besides wilderness ethics.

[ratagonia]

Ah, the damn strawman again. I hate him.

FWIW, the first line of my post was meant almost totally in jest. Not even a smiley helped me get that across this time. I suppose sarcasm is just a lost cause on internet bulletin boards. A sad comment on our times.

As for the second line, I clearly stated "anybody else's wilderness fantasies." If your wilderness fantasies do not apply, then no objection need be taken on your part.

The first section of your first paragraph is generally accepted at face value, no sarcasm required. The items you list are litter, trash. They are tolerated when useful. When not useful, they are simply trash.

The sarcasm of the last bit was, even with sarcasm tags, easily discernible, even to an earnest Cactus Kisser like myself.

Again, :strawman: - a clean canyon ethic offers an increase in safety, not a decrease. Learning new skills for the craft of canyoneering cannot but increase your safety. Relying on uninspectable, and possibly non-existent, bolts is not an effective long-term strategy. There may be a few sociopath canyoneers who get all warm and fuzzy thinking of you decreasing your safety, but the best way to effect that would to place bolts poorly - for instance with elmer's glue.


I do appreciate you explaining why a guide may have other reasons for removing John's webbing besides wilderness ethics.

It is essentially a Wilderness Ethic. When we take people out into the wild, we want it as uncluttered with human trash as possible. Webbing in canyons is trash. When not useful it should be removed. If people wanted to go to an urban park, they would not choose a trip with us.

And just to be clear, unless you are a curvaceous Brunette with a few other specific desirable attributes, you do not make an appearance in my Wilderness Fantasies, increased risk or not... :naughty:

Tom :moses:

[moabmatt]

For the record, wasn't us. We don't really guide that route anymore. And while we do take webbing from canyons we guide, we're certainly not gonna tell someone that we're gonna keep the webbing for ourselves! Not very good PR, IMO. Perhaps they were joking. If we are there at the same time and we can toss the webbing to you, we will. Better yet we'll probably just untie your rope (we'll wait till you've reached the bottom) and drop it to forgo the need to even pull ropes.

We've always extended an invite to folks to swing by the shop and pick up their webbing that we've removed, even if it was a trip from weeks earlier. But you gotta properly identify it! :haha:

[canyoncaver]

For the guides out there: Does your insurance require you to remove existing webbing and replace it with your own, or is it purely a wilderness ethic?

I don't get the ethics bit if you are essentially going to redo what is already there. The liability part I do get. Like when I ran into ZAC in Water Canyon and the guide explained to me that all clients must descend on a hard-rigged line, and then it is re-rigged as pull down for the guide only. He told me that this was due to insurance requirements.

[moab mark]

Did Rock of Ages this past weekend. As previously mentioned, the pins at the top of the last rap have been pulled, and there is the single bolt by the bush that you can use to protect the bolt anchor on the face below. There is a sizable cairn anchor up top that we used instead, and backed it up with the single bolt by the bush. The guide behind us was pretty excited about cleaning our webbing and threw it down to us. We were planning on leaving it but he said he would either throw it to us or keep it for himself.

So here's my question - what are the ethics behind leaving webbing/quicklink at a natural anchor? If there is a way to set a retrievable anchor around this cairn, it's beyond my current skill level. I don't go around and clean the guide companies' webbing as I go all around Moab, so I was left confused. What's the correct answer here?
I went and found a big freakin log a month ago and set it up with the webbing coming down thru the crack at the back of the shelf, this creates a nice anchor, is it gone? I agree with Shane about the bolts on the wall, they are not in a good place for a noob trade route.

[ratagonia]

For the guides out there: Does your insurance require you to remove existing webbing and replace it with your own, or is it purely a wilderness ethic?

I don't get the ethics bit if you are essentially going to redo what is already there. The liability part I do get. Like when I ran into ZAC in Water Canyon and the guide explained to me that all clients must descend on a hard-rigged line, and then it is re-rigged as pull down for the guide only. He told me that this was due to insurance requirements.

Hmmmmm. I think you misunderstood. Or it was a guide not from ZAC.

Our insurance requires us to be trained, and to do things right. Our boss (Jonathan) requires us to do things right and bring all the clients back each day, with no major bones broken. We do not have standardized ways of doing things, as in written down - each guide is empowered to apply their judgment on a continuing basis. There are lots of ways to do things right - we are required to use one of them, not necessarily the same one that Jonathan, Hank, Sarah or Calvin would select, but one that is safe. But we train together, discuss different ways of doing things, and generally do the same things, just not necessarily exactly the same things each time at each drop.

I like to have the clients rig the rappel with a Stone Knot, so each client goes off what would be a hard-rigged line. Then I go last usually double-strand for simplicity, though there are rappels where a single strand is a better choice. For a normal adventure day, I usually teach the stone knot set up at the first rappel, and we do it the same way on all the raps.

For courses, the same general principles apply, except everything is different. People start at different places, so if they are starting with no technical background, I will usually teach them exactly one set up, and then they practice that many times. I'd probably start with a regular toss-n-tangle double-rope technique; show them single strand at some point in there, so they know how to rappel on it, but not necessarily for them to set up and use regularly. Each class is different.

Replacing webbing: no, we apply reason, inspect carefully, and are perhaps more conservative on replacing webbing than we would be on a personal trip. Then again, we are usually the ones placing and replacing the webbing, so we know about 75% of the history of the webbing.


I don't get the ethics bit if you are essentially going to redo what is already there.

Protocols vary. I may redo what is there because I don't like some aspect of what is there that may be fairly subtle, so it may look like I am just redoing it the same way. I might even do that, just to mess with your head. :cool2:

Tom :moses:

[John Peterson]

I didn't mean to imply the guide was unpleasant about it. We were coiling up our rope when he got to the rap, and he yelled down to ask if we wanted it back. We replied no, which was when he said he was going to keep it if we didn't, so we then asked for it back. My question was why he was cleaning the cairn anchor in the first place. Thanks to all for the responses.



For the record, wasn't us. We don't really guide that route anymore. And while we do take webbing from canyons we guide, we're certainly not gonna tell someone that we're gonna keep the webbing for ourselves! Not very good PR, IMO. Perhaps they were joking. If we are there at the same time and we can toss the webbing to you, we will. Better yet we'll probably just untie your rope (we'll wait till you've reached the bottom) and drop it to forgo the need to even pull ropes.

We've always extended an invite to folks to swing by the shop and pick up their webbing that we've removed, even if it was a trip from weeks earlier. But you gotta properly identify it! :haha:

[oldno7]

Hey Mark
Ever hear the saying--you can lead a horse to water...........................
A dead man would be an inferior "natural" anchor in this spot, people need to learn to recognize natural anchor potential.
Now if theres a deadman, because someone wanted to practice anchor building skills, that "might" make sense.(Naaaaa)
Speaking of horses---this one has been beat to death:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

[moab mark]

I didn't mean to imply the guide was unpleasant about it. We were coiling up our rope when he got to the rap, and he yelled down to ask if we wanted it back. We replied no, which was when he said he was going to keep it if we didn't, so we then asked for it back. My question was why he was cleaning the cairn anchor in the first place. Thanks to all for the responses.

I'm sure it is the same guide we ran into a month ago. I cannot think of the name of the Company but it is on the right coming into town. He said they are using this route a lot lately. He rigs the last drop by placing several cams in the cracks on the face that is above where the pitons were. He uses the cams for his clients. He the re rigs and goes off the bolts on the face of the wall. I sat and watch this :angryfire: and it was very very slow. Seems like there was not any webbing on the face and he went off just one of the bolts.

Mark