Getting branded by rappeling device.

[moab mark]

THis is not a what if. I am having problems with kids and small women burning themselves with rappel device. Those women who went to moab with me a few weeks ago were all pretty small. When they rappel the piranha is up pretty close to their face. Each of them at least once got a small burn from the device on their face. We could extend on a tail but that is sometimes tough to get over an edge. What if you put the carabiner through their harness and not through the tie in point? Not real comfortable with that concept but they cuss me when that hot sucker touches there face. I've told them to slow down but they want to go fast.

Mark

[davehuth]

Why not use ATCs? We've taken a lot of small high school students on trips and have never had this happen with ATCs. Seems to me a person would have to know what they are doing to take advantage of a piranha. Or you could use a smaller biner with an 8 and they could really fly down the rap (we teach the kids to walk...).

[denaliguide]

tell em to man up and quit bitchin or you won't take them next time.

before they started puttinh those tie in loops on harnesses it was the SOP to clip a locking biner through the leg loop and waist loop. i still tie in by running the rope up through the leg loops and the waist loop. i never tie in just to the loop of webbing. old school i guess.

so the answwer is yes you can use a LOCKING biner through the leg loops and waist loop to shorten the distance.

[moab mark]

Why not use ATCs? We've taken a lot of small high school students on trips and have never had this happen with ATCs. Seems to me a person would have to know what they are doing to take advantage of a piranha. Or you could use a smaller biner with an 8 and they could really fly down the rap (we teach the kids to walk...).

My experience is all rappeling devices will get warm if you motor.
Not a big fan of atc's. Hard to just look at them and know they are rigged right. Some people love them so I bought one and tried it for awhile went back to my piranha.
Had a scout one time rig one and when I checked it the rope was not through biner. Kids also seem to have a hard time jamming the rope through the opening. When rigging double could possibly not get one of the ropes in the carabiner. But they are compact which is nice. The piranha has alot of options and you can tell if they rigged it right from a distance. Put bight through opening clip in carabiner easy.
Seems like atc's would not be as prone to sucking a backpack strap though.
They just need to slow down but then it would not be lagoon.
Mark

[ratagonia]

THis is not a what if. I am having problems with kids and small women burning themselves with rappel device. Those women who went to moab with me a few weeks ago were all pretty small. When they rappel the piranha is up pretty close to their face. Each of them at least once got a small burn from the device on their face. We could extend on a tail but that is sometimes tough to get over an edge. What if you put the carabiner through their harness and not through the tie in point? Not real comfortable with that concept but they cuss me when that hot sucker touches there face. I've told them to slow down but they want to go fast.

Mark

With small women and kids, we often lengthen out the rappel so the device is pretty high, usually at about face level. I have nightmares of some 5 yr old getting his fingers caught in the Pirana and losing a finger - or at least I did until I started distancing.

If you're doing long, spectacular rappels with no hard starts, you can put the device quite high, as in above head level. People can use two hands on the device. When free-hanging, people can old onto the strap to maintain balance.

T

[ratagonia]

before they started puttinh those tie in loops on harnesses it was the SOP to clip a locking biner through the leg loop and waist loop. i still tie in by running the rope up through the leg loops and the waist loop. i never tie in just to the loop of webbing. old school i guess.

so the answwer is yes you can use a LOCKING biner through the leg loops and waist loop to shorten the distance.

You're dating yourself, Denali Guide. Bill Forrest invented the Belay loop in about 1984.

Hopefully you tie in correctly to the harness because you are not a fool. If you tied the rope into the belay loop, you would quickly wear out the belay loop. VERY DANGEROUS. Clip a BINER to the Belay Loop. - just like it says on the label and in the literature.

I think the real question for Moab Mark is why is the Pirana so high up on these people? What is your chain? What harnesses are you using???

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

What I want to know is. It's raining here so I know why I am in the house today. But why is Tom sitting in the house on a beautiful day in Zion?

We are using all different types of harnesses. When you stretch out the tie in loop along with the harness around there skinny waists. Plus the attache?carabiner (gold one) your getting close to their face. Part of the problem is when you rappel your feet are towards the wall and the geometry of your waist bending brings you closer to the rappeling device.

My buddy burned his neck one time rappeling off of gemini bridges. With the same set-up.

Mark

[DOSS]

I don't know why but saying the persons skinny waist is causing things to move says to me that the harness isn't properly fitted.. I also don't get why the Belay device is so close to the persons face to cause a burn.

and like was said.. if they don't like being burned.. don't touch it and or slow down

[MiCanyoneer]

I don't know why but saying the persons skinny waist is causing things to move says to me that the harness isn't properly fitted.. I also don't get why the Belay device is so close to the persons face to cause a burn.


Here is a picture of my daughter with this setup from a few years ago.
Not sure How she would burn her face. If she burned it from the device Ithink she would be getting rope burn on the face too.

http://mcnitt.shutterfly.com/402

[moab mark]

This picture is kind of dark. But that harness is cranked up on that kid as tight as it will go.

[trackrunner]

Is he wearing an adult harness or a youth harness?

[moab mark]

That pirana could easily touch your face. He is going so fast the picture is a blur. Those that are experienced know to stay away from the rappel device. But noobs do not always pay attention that it might be hot.

[moab mark]

Is he wearing an adult harness or a youth harness?

Small youth.

My 8 year olds full body will also let his face touch the device.

[moab mark]

That pirana could easily touch your face. He is going so fast the picture is a blur. Those that are experienced know to stay away from the rappel device. But noobs do not always pay attention that it might be hot.

Edit Tom has a rapide between his carabiner and harness so that was not a good example. I'll look for some more.

[moab mark]

The guided rappel is changing the angles on this rappel but that pirana could easily touch your face.

[ratagonia]

What I want to know is. It's raining here so I know why I am in the house today. But why is Tom sitting in the house on a beautiful day in Zion?

Mark

Not that good here, rained last night and threatening today.

A day off for me. Guided yesterday, guiding tomorrow. Puttering around the house trying to get things done today. Watering the lawn, planting stuff, fixing harnesses and packs, trying to get the desk straightened out. Don't worry Mark, plenty of things to do here at home...

T :rockon:

[moab mark]

Here is a good one. Youth harness snugged tight.

[ratagonia]

Here is a good one. Youth harness snugged tight.

(the usual comment on helmets)...

Yeah, I would make it longer, get it away from them, give em something to hold on to to stay upright.

T

[nonot]

Everyone burns themselves once in awhile, even trying to take off an 8 after a long rappel, I don't like touching the thing right away.

If they can't get it in their head not to touch, either create a barrier (to the effect or the cause) or stop taking the whiners.

Barrier to the effect: Not that I would advise it but one could always take an unwanted plastic cup like you get at subway and modify it so it would slip around the device without affecting the rope. If I start finding discarded cups at the bottom of rappels, I will :bash:

Barrier to the cause: Easiest solution is to switch to ATC's, which you don't want to do. I've never seen anyone build up a good head of steam on an ATC (but I don't canyoneer with kids, though I have with some petite women). Most have to feed the rope through with an ATC. No speed=alot less heat.

[moab mark]

The question should of been. Does anyone else have this problem? The solution is either slow down or pay attention. My wife last year on the last drop on behunin burnt her thigh when she got off the rope. The pirana swung down and touched her thigh. She has started wearing board shorts after that.

[denaliguide]

payinng attention. now there's a clever thought. :haha: doesn't cost anything either.

[price1869]

That pirana could easily touch your face. He is going so fast the picture is a blur. Those that are experienced know to stay away from the rappel device. But noobs do not always pay attention that it might be hot.

Tell them to pay attention - and slow down.

[Iceaxe]

I don't have a good solution as I've never really encounter this problem..... but I'll tell you what scares the snot out of me in regards to this situation.... if they are touching their face on the rap device it has probably been nothing but dumb luck that one of them has not sucked their hair into the device. They need to pay attention....

[trackrunner]

I don't have a good solution as I've never really encounter this problem..... but I'll tell you what scares the snot out of me in regards to this situation.... if they are touching their face on the rap device it has probably been nothing but dumb luck that one of them has not sucked their hair into the device. They need to pay attention....

BIG QFE

Maybe I read this wrong if so disregard. If this is happening because they want to rappel fast, then give a belay that would prevent them from doing so. Top or bottom belay should work.

Since your gonig out with Kurt this week ask his opinion. He's been helpful coming up with new ideas.

[RedRoxx]

The usual---- slow down or rig away. I sure as heck wouldn't want my device too far away from me as to loose control if I wanted to change my grip etc.
For big Mexico pits ( Golinderas--Sp??) cavers will actually take a small spray bottle attached with cool water to spray the device and rope down.

I've gotton clothing stuck in my rap device before. Really sucks to get free and both times ( shirt, finger of glove) I tore it out and got a nice big hole. Sure pay more attention now.

Only burn I've got was a scar still on my arm from using a body wrap on a rope sliding down some flow stone because I was too lazy to do it properly.
Nothing like pain for a little lesson learned.

[oldno7]

I don't have a good solution as I've never really encounter this problem..... but I'll tell you what scares the snot out of me in regards to this situation.... if they are touching their face on the rap device it has probably been nothing but dumb luck that one of them has not sucked their hair into the device. They need to pay attention....

BIG QFE

Maybe I read this wrong if so disregard. If this is happening because they want to rappel fast, then give a belay that would prevent them from doing so. Top or bottom belay should work.

Since your gonig out with Kurt this week ask his opinion. He's been helpful coming up with new ideas.

From what I can understand----He may just need to get another or a new wife, there may not be a method to slow this one down. :lol8:

[hank moon]

Go Aussie style!