Muslim father orders daughter killed over short skirt

[Sombeech]

http://www.mosnews.com/society/2009/04/13/shortskirtt/


13 Apr, 01:29 PM

A Muslim resident of Russia

[Don]

If only she had worn a long jacket...


I speak out and put a lot of blame on religion for the shit they pull, especially christianity (because they are close and the shit they pull actually affects me) but I gotta say; I'm glad this kind of shit is in christianity's past and not still in practice.
Silly muslims, bare knees aren't even the dirty parts; wait to stone women in bikinis cause that makes sense. :roll:

[Don]

And as long as we're talking about muslim women, did you see this at msnbc.com this morning?

[i]Violence flares at protest over Afghan sex law
Women hit by stones at rally against law critics say legalizes marital rape
The Associated Press
updated 6:35 a.m. MT, Wed., April 15, 2009
KABUL - A group of some 1,000 Afghans swarmed a demonstration of 300 women protesting against a new conservative marriage law on Wednesday. The women were pelted with small stones as police struggled to keep the two groups apart.
The law, passed last month, says a husband can demand sex with his wife every four days unless she is ill or would be harmed by intercourse

[DiscGo]

It sure is easy to see why people without religion would criticize those of us who are religious. So many crazy things are done due to people being extreme in their religious beliefs.

[Alex]

How do you know Don doesn't have religion?????? Believe in God, higher power, Buddha, or whatever else :roll:

[DiscGo]

Alex- I can only assume your question was to me, but I didn't say anything about Don.

[Alex]

Ya it was, I assumed your response was to Don, I apologize for my harsh response :ne_nau:

[Don]

How do you know Don doesn't have religion?????? Believe in God, higher power, Buddha, or whatever else :roll:

Oh, I don't; Atheist. I like the term non-theist better because the word atheist, as it is commonly understood, seems to indicate an explicit knowledge that god (or gods) fail to exist. I have no explicit knowledge either way but the any empirical data pointing toward the existence of an all powerful being that intervenes in daily life on my behalf (or even on the behalf of his righteous followers) fails to exist. So I chose to live my life under the assumption that he also fails to exist. Of course this is just a theory, and not really even my theory; any empirical data found to be pointing toward the existence of a god will happily be considered and weighed against all that has lead to my current theory.

Thanks though. :nod:

[DiscGo]

Nope. My comments were legitimate and if they were directed "towards" anyone, it was the religious worshipers. I don't understand how so many people from so many religions have done so many horrible things when their religions supposedly advocate peace.

I am a religious person and I honestly try to live my life better because of my religion but I'm sure these people who would kill their family in the name of falling short on their religions are also probably trying to be good people in their minds. It really is frightening.

[RedMan]

Zealots come in lots of forms, not just religious.

I prefer a certain level of moderation. The kind that can read those passages of the Bible that recommend "stone thy neighbor" for various offenses and actually consider "perhaps not today".

I see plenty of non-religious Zealots. Just look at the Rev.

There is a point where this guy stopped being a good father concerned for his daughters well being and became Zealot.

[Don]

Zealots come in lots of forms, not just religious.

I prefer a certain level of moderation. The kind that can read those passages of the Bible that recommend "stone thy neighbor" for various offenses and actually consider "perhaps not today".

I see plenty of non-religious Zealots. Just look at the Rev.

True, there are other kinds of zealots, but when was the last time a die-hard-atheist evolutionary biologist (even a zealous one who publishes anti-religious books and speaks publicly about the dangers of religion) had his daughter killed for some moral transgression?


There is a point where this guy stopped being a good father concerned for his daughters well being and became Zealot.

True.

[Sombeech]

Instead of blaming religion in general, I'm going to take the more logical side and say this father should be strung up.

[RedMan]

Zealots come in lots of forms, not just religious.

I prefer a certain level of moderation. The kind that can read those passages of the Bible that recommend "stone thy neighbor" for various offenses and actually consider "perhaps not today".

I see plenty of non-religious Zealots. Just look at the Rev.

True, there are other kinds of zealots, but when was the last time a die-hard-atheist evolutionary biologist (even a zealous one who publishes anti-religious books and speaks publicly about the dangers of religion) had his daughter killed for some moral transgression?


There is a point where this guy stopped being a good father concerned for his daughters well being and became Zealot.

True.

Well, Jeffery Dahmer was an Athiest. He apparently accepted Jesus just before someone sent him one quest to verify which was which.

There are lots of exceptions to every rule.

[DiscGo]

Personally I believe there are at least at least equally likely to be bad people as religious people, but the difference in my mind is that the atheists are not hypocrites. They are not attending church once a week preaching about peace and love and then killing their families. Atheists seem to believe that you get one go around and you need to make your life as good as you can. Some use that philosophy to try and be kind and great their only time through and others are not as concerned with "wrong or right" and just do for themselves (which are the ones that give atheists such a bad name).


When it comes down to it, I would rather that every religious fanatic that tried to kills others for their religion be atheists and every bad person who is an atheist have religion and a greater understanding of their consequences.

[CarpeyBiggs]

holy crap! MOSNEWS is back? i thought they folded a couple years back.

[Cirrus2000]

When it comes down to it, I would rather that ..... every bad person who is an atheist have religion and a greater understanding of their consequences.
I cut out the part about wanting bad religious people to be atheists (maybe to give them a better-deserved "bad name"? To protect their religion from a "bad name"? Not sure... Seems to me that atheists don't give themselves a bad name - religious people do. But I digress.)

The quoted text above is the portion I want to concentrate on. I totally agree with this sentence except for two words: "religion and". My version of this sentence would be:

When it comes down to it, I would rather that every bad person who is an atheist have a greater understanding of their consequences.
I assume that the consequences you refer to are the consequences that the immoral actions (of said "bad atheists") wreak upon their victims. Not the consequences that will be inflicted on the atheists when they get their comeuppance in the sweet hereafter.

To elucidate:

When it comes down to it, I would rather that every immorally acting person (whether atheist, theist, deist or whatever) have a greater understanding of the consequences that their actions have on others.
Kind of stating the obvious, isn't it? But sometimes we atheists have to do so: "Yes, I believe in right and wrong, in moral behavior." (I, by the way, am very comfortable with the word atheist. It means what it says - I don't believe there is a god. I'd even go farther, and say that I believe there isn't a god. But we get into semantics - for either of those statements, the fundamental doctrines of the three great monotheisms say I deserve a bloody good stoning.)

To the subject at hand: Despicable behavior, lent a veneer of respectability (in the eyes of some equally despicable co-religionists) by the populist tenets of a shared belief system. Awful.

[RedMan]

Jeffery Dahmer said he didn't feel bad about the things he did since he had no accountability (like to God in the afterlife).

But apparently even having that accountability doesn't stop people from doing horrible things to each other.

[DiscGo]

Let me just reiterate especially to you Kev that I mean no disrespect in anything I have said in this post to atheists. All I mean to say is that I wish the small percentage of atheists who's lack of a belief of any sort of consequences for their actions after this life would find religion in hopes of them improving as citizens in the community. Likewise I wish that the religious extremists who cause harm to others in the name of their God were the ones with no God in hopes of them being more peaceful.


All I was trying to say was that reading stories like this I can absolutely see why so many people hate religion and I wish people in general were just better people. Yes, my statement about wish people were better is an obvious one, but that doesn't make it any less true.

[Wasatch Rebel]

I think so too. BTW--do you think because a religious person has supposed high moral standards and fails to live up to them that he or she is a hypocrite? Because a hypocrite is one who professes high standards and has no intention of living up to them. There's a difference.

[Don]

There have been more than a few books written on the subject of morality without fiction, but of course if you have morality given to you by god there

[DiscGo]

I waited a while before responding to this thread because I was having a hard time trying to express my offense without giving offense.


I'm not really sure what is up with this thread. I made the following comment:


It sure is easy to see why people without religion would criticize those of us who are religious. So many crazy things are done due to people being extreme in their religious beliefs.

And Alex jumps down my throat with the following comment:

How do you know Don doesn't have religion?????? Believe in God, higher power, Buddha, or whatever else :roll:

I said nothing against you Don, and I have only commented on how awful religious people can be in the name of their religion. So I have not made any negative remarks about atheism in this post but I feel like I have some how offended the atheists on this site with my comments.


I really don't know what I said you guys found so offensive, but I speculate it has more to do with how you view me and not with what I said. So I'll just say that I'm sorry on both accounts.

[DiscGo]

For the record Don, Cirrus, & Carpey are 3 of my favorite people on this site and I believe all 3 of you to be atheists. I truly don't know what I may have said to offend anyone (that is not religious) with my post on this thread but that really was not my intent.

[Don]

Dan, we're good. I guess I'm just tired of the Dahmer was an athiest and so he did horrible things without remorse arguement.

Part of my response may have been intended toward a co-worker who doesn't know about Bogley and toward whom I may have been venting a bit.

[Deathcricket]

[quote=Don]
It

[DiscGo]

Atheism isn't a religion its a description. Or maybe a lack of religion all together.

I heard a quote recently on that subject which I found funny.


"If Atheism is a religion, is not collecting baseball cards a hobby?"

[Cirrus2000]

Hey, Dan, for the record I wasn't offended by what you said - not at all. (As I mentioned, I was a little puzzled, and you clarified. All good.)

As Don said, it's the inferences about Dahmer and the like. It gets kind of frustrating that some people seem to think that non-believers are only good because there are laws against the kind of things they think we really want to do.


"If Atheism is a religion, is not collecting baseball cards a hobby?"

Yup, I've heard variations on that before. I really like - and agree with - that comparison.

[DiscGo]

Come to think of it, I am pretty sure that Summit and DeathCricket are also atheists and those guys are also great people (and some of my favorites from this site).



I think there are enough bad people on both sides. I wish more people recognized a need to be good people and called upon whatever motivation they needed.

[Deathcricket]

Come to think of it, I am pretty sure that Summit and DeathCricket are also atheists and those guys are also great people (and some of my favorites from this site).


I'm only an atheist until something goes wrong in my life, and I need help.

:roflol:

Seriously though I go back and forth. I look at the wonders in the universe and it seems so intelligently designed. No way that could be by chance! Then I go to church with my bro or mom and it seems so shallow and wrong. So can I vote for there IS a god, but he looks at us like little ants to be burned with a magnifying glass? Or perhaps observe passively in a beaker like some interesting bacteria?

[Ih8grvty]

I count myself among the atheists, or nonbeliever, or what ever anyone wants to call them.
I learned my morals form my parents growing up.
Just for thought, my mom is not an atheist, and my dad was not till just about 10 or 12 years ago, while I was even when sitting in church prior to being 8 years old.

I have raised all my kids with no god.
One 18, one 16 and one now 5, soon to be 6.
None of them have done anything rotten, kid stuff rotten, but not really rotten.
I was the rotten one, I robbed houses upstairs while familys ate downstairs at the table, I stole cars, i did every drug imaginable, with the exception of meth,and x, and had they been around in my drug days, I would have done them as well.
God or lack of had nothing to do with it. I was simply an asshole.
I have been a retired criminal for many many years now and my rotten fell aside with my youth.
I never feared punishment by god or by man, I simply did what I wanted.
No my parents did not think it was ok or teach me to be that way, they instilled the very opposite, what cured me was having kids, having my stuff stolen, being the victim instead of the bully. Knowing what it felt like and wanting better for my kids, that is what turned me around.
My kids know my past, Iv been honest about it, they know Iv done some time, and the drugs and all of it.
I saw it as an opportunity to use real life experience to teach them, not cover it up in shame. Nothing Im proud of understand, I am not ashamed for my past, but could I go back, I wouldnt repeat it.
When people talk of god, whats it matter?
your god, his god, that guys god...who cares?
Anyone that knows me knows I do not follow it, could care less about it. They also know i have friends in about any religion you can name.
We simply take each other at face value and do not talk god.
We both know where each other stands, we also know that one will not change the others mind, no reason to belittle each other over it.
I can see no reason that lack of god would push you do be a bad person, I know others that never did the things I did, and some that are good mormons or catholics and a couple Baptist that did the same stuff i did.
God or lack of one is not an excuse for being a piece of shit, or a tic sucking off society, that falls on the person themselves.
As to the original point of the thread?
Im with beech, string his ass up by his nards and beat him to death with a bag of marbles.

[Don]

Ih8grvty,
I agree that it should not matter. Belief in god or not is a personal choice and should not affect anyone but the believer. The interactions between believers of differing faiths however leave much to be desired.
In a discussion about ethics and ethical theories there is a concept of absolutism. Absolutism is an ethical view that certain actions are right (or wrong) no matter what. For instance an absolutist might say that lying is wrong even when faced with a murderer asking for the location of a potential victim.
I think we can all see the flaw in absolutism, right?
Most theists, especially those of the three predominate mono-theistic religions follow a system of graded-absolutes. In this system if there is a conflict between absolutes the duty to obey the higher one exempts the duty to obey the lower one. The hierarchy is first and foremost duty to god, then duty to fellow humans then duty to property.
In this system if god authorizes genocide (as the god of the three major mono-theist religions did in the bible) the duty would be to help kill as many of the heathens as possible. This system of ethics has been abused by men in religious power for centuries and continues to be abused today.
In this system killing doctors for performing abortions is ethical, killing homosexuals or adulterers could be seen as ethical, fighting an endless war over a piece of land that one god promised to two peoples is ethical, flying a plane load of innocent people into a building full of innocent people is ethical. Yes, even killing ones own daughter for wearing a skirt too short can be seen as ethical by this standard because god's will trumps love of daughter (This lesson is specifically taught in the bible when Abraham is asked to sacrafice his son and when Jephthah burns his daughter in sacrafice.)

And somehow it is the rational, morally aware atheist who is compared to the serial killing Sociopath?

[Cirrus2000]

I'm only an atheist until something goes wrong in my life, and I need help.

Sounds like a lot of people! In fact, I honestly believe that half the people that profess a belief in a god (especially those who don't attend services regularly) feel the same way. It doesn't really affect them that much, and they only profess belief because of a sort of Pascal's Wager position - that and because "that's how I was raised".

Now, out of curiosity, what form did this help you received take? (For surely you have received quality help, or you wouldn't keep going back and looking for more...)


Seriously though I go back and forth. I look at the wonders in the universe and it seems so intelligently designed. No way that could be by chance! Then I go to church with my bro or mom and it seems so shallow and wrong. So can I vote for there IS a god, but he looks at us like little ants to be burned with a magnifying glass? Or perhaps observe passively in a beaker like some interesting bacteria?

The total lack of any observable evidence whatsoever points to those being the only alternatives (if there is a god) to the rational, evidence-seeking mind. Not a personal, cares-if-you-live-or-die, jealous torture/salvation-obsessed god - just one who set the wheels in motion and sat back to watch. So the jury's out on that one, and we'll never know. But since there's no A) evidence of that god, or B) requirement for that god, I'll just go on like that god doesn't exist either.

Hey, I just got a haircut! It looks pretty good. (Just trying to lighten things up.)

[Ih8grvty]

Oh I totaly get it. I am always pooped on for it, told im evil and worship satan and hate god.
I have yet to see how I can hate something I do not think exists, but what ever, likewise I can not worship something I do not believe in.
I have no morals, or so Im told, no feelings either. I still feel like shit when I see a toddler ran over in the driveway, sick to my stomach each time I see a kid disappeared walking home, complete rage each time some sick bastard molests a child, the same stuff everyone else feels when it all happens.

I think if people concentrated more on people being people than whos god is right, things would be much better on this planet.
I happen to have a very good friend who is muslim, from Jordan.
I asked him about this last night after I saw the reprint here on bogley.
He said its more extremists than standard muslims that would do something of this nature to a child of their own. He does however think its perfectly rational to kill in the name of honor the young man that takes his unborn, as of yet, unconceived daughters virginity, if its not on her wedding night.
Not all people of any religion are good, same as not any of one are bad.
People seem to keep forgetting that in America freedom of means freedom from as well.
BTW Don, the IH8GRVTY, was a forum name, when I joined had I known Id enjoy the site so much, Id of picked another, and now iM too lazy to start a new account and begin again just to get rid of it, I do however, in real life, go by Chance.

[ratagonia]

I'm only an atheist until something goes wrong in my life, and I need help.

Seriously though I go back and forth. I look at the wonders in the universe and it seems so intelligently designed. No way that could be by chance! Then I go to church with my bro or mom and it seems so shallow and wrong. So can I vote for there IS a god, but he looks at us like little ants to be burned with a magnifying glass? Or perhaps observe passively in a beaker like some interesting bacteria?

One of my favorite subjects too, thus this RESURRECTION! - perhaps a bit early for Easter.

"looks at us like little ants" - ah, perhaps you are a Deist, the most popular religious philosophy of our founding fathers...

To the first, consider how incredibly marvelous the universe is, built not by a Creator, but by the incredible length of time available. No Creator required - truly a MIRACLE! Wrap your mind around that! Mind-blowing - quick, someone come up with an explanation that is easier to grasp...

Tom :moses:

[ilanimaka]

I got an explanation for ya. You're a troll. There... that explains away anything & everything you could possibly say. :bootyshake: :flipa: