Canyoneering With Sports Chalet

[canyonguru]

not sure if anyone has seen this yet but it looks like everyone is trying to get into the guiding service. What do you guys think.

http://www.sportchalet.com/category/adventures/canyoneering.do

[ratagonia]

not sure if anyone has seen this yet but it looks like everyone is trying to get into the guiding service. What do you guys think.

http://www.sportchalet.com/category/adventures/canyoneering.do

Alpine Training Services has been offering Canyoneering courses in cooperation with Sports Chalet since 2001.

http://www.alpinets.com/canyoneering.html

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

If my intel is good..... I believe that the Sport Chalet Canyoneering Program is run by

ATS: http://www.alpinets.com/

I have only heard good things about them. I know a lot of the SoCal canyoneers have been through their program so I'm sure one of them can provide more info.

ATS has been around for about 10 years so it's not like they are a total noob.

:cool2:

[canyonguru]

yeah i had no idea i just came across it today while searching for stuff. i just thought they had a couple of employees out there taking people down canyons. its good to hear that it is a respectable company doing the trips.

[Deathcricket]

Adventure Locations:
Los Angeles, Seattle, Phoenix, Mexico, Zion, and the Sierra

I found this interesting. Why say "Zion" and not southern Utah? Not many people even know where Zion is. I guess if you're in the area, you would and that makes you in the target market. But I can see people planning a trip around this. Just weird since phoenix and mexico are friggin huge, yet zion is so specific.

[ratagonia]

Adventure Locations:
Los Angeles, Seattle, Phoenix, Mexico, Zion, and the Sierra

I found this interesting. Why say "Zion" and not southern Utah? Not many people even know where Zion is. I guess if you're in the area, you would and that makes you in the target market. But I can see people planning a trip around this. Just weird since phoenix and mexico are friggin huge, yet zion is so specific.

And also because, they CAN'T guide in Zion.

T :moses:

[oldno7]

Can't is such a big word-------------
Surely you meant "legally" can't. :haha: :popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Can't is such a big word-------------
Surely you meant "legally" can't. :haha: :popcorn:

Correctamundo, your exactatudinousmus. ;->

T

[Iceaxe]

It looks like ATS has scheduled several 3 day canyoneering schools in Utah for 2010.

February 5-7, 2010 - Los Angeles area
April 2-4, 2010 - Los Angeles area
April 9-11, 2010 - Phoenix area
April 23-25, 2010 - Zion area
May 7-9, 2010 - Los Angeles area
June 4-6, 2010 - Los Angeles area
August 13-15, 2010 - Seattle, Washington area
September 3-5, 2010 - Phoenix area
September 10-12, 2010 - Sierra area
September 17-19, 2010 - San Rafael Swell, Utah area
September 24-26, 2010 - Zion area
October 1-3, 2010 - Los Angeles area
November 5-7, 2010 - Los Angeles area
December 3-5, 2010 - Los Angeles area
December 24-26, 2010 - Tampico, Mexico area

it also looks like you can sign up for a one day classes....

More info here:
http://outdooradventurecourses.com/canyoneering_courses

:blahblah:

[hank moon]

ATS' canyoneering school was discussed here previously:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9933

uh, and the linked thread has a very low signal/noise ratio :haha:

[Iceaxe]

uh, and the linked thread has a very low signal/noise ratio :haha:

The noise has been split into it's own separate thread... the linked thread should now have a better signal.

[moab mark]

Can't is such a big word-------------
Surely you meant "legally" can't. :haha: :popcorn:

Correctamundo, your exactatudinousmus. ;->

T

That would be 5 times now. :2thumbs:

[moab mark]

ATS' canyoneering school was discussed here previously:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9933

uh, and the linked thread has a very low signal/noise ratio :haha:

Did these guys ever get going in Salt Lake?

Mark

[moab mark]

not sure if anyone has seen this yet but it looks like everyone is trying to get into the guiding service. What do you guys think.

http://www.sportchalet.com/category/adventures/canyoneering.do

Alpine Training Services has been offering Canyoneering courses in cooperation with Sports Chalet since 2001.

http://www.alpinets.com/canyoneering.html

Tom :moses:

Hijack,

How come you are not over freezing your butt off at the FF?

Mark

[Iceaxe]

Did these guys ever get going in Salt Lake?

"It looks like ATS has scheduled several 3 day canyoneering schools in Utah for 2010."

That is what revived this old thread....

Sports Chalet and ATS have professional ties.... I have no clue how the Utah stores, ATS, and Utah canyon classes are tied together, if at all.

:cool2:

[moab mark]

Did these guys ever get going in Salt Lake?

"It looks like ATS has scheduled several 3 day canyoneering schools in Utah for 2010."

That is what revived this old thread....

Sports Chalet and ATS have professional ties.... I have no clue how the Utah stores, ATS, and Utah canyon classes are tied together, if at all.

:cool2:
I am suprised a climbing gym in the Salt Lake area does not teach reasonably priced canyoneering classes. With all of the Scout leaders etc around I bet it would be popular.



Mark

[Iceaxe]

Exum Utah (now Mountain Adventures) had a canyoneering course a while back, so did the University of Utah.

It appears that Mountain Adventures will begin offering the course again in 2010.
http://www.utahmountainadventures.com/rock_courses_canyoneering.shtml
I know Exum Utah has changed ownership so I don't know what kind of instruction you will get.

I tagged along on a U of U outing, it was not a class, but the trip the group did at the end of the school year. I probably learned more that one day of canyoneering than any other single day of canyoneering. They did things completely different from the way just about everyone else I had been with did things. They were total team work, it was interesting to watch and learn. Everyone else teaches what I would call a guide/client or leader/follower method, yes, the others teach teamwork, but nearly to the same degree or with the same advanced ideas. Going with these guys really shaped my personal idea of what canyoneering should be. Only downside is they were not as strong on rope work as other schools, but it was a good cross training for me. I don't think the U still has this classes as I've not heard anything about it for a while.

.

[hank moon]

ATS' canyoneering school was discussed here previously:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9933

uh, and the linked thread has a very low signal/noise ratio :haha:

Did these guys ever get going in Salt Lake?

Mark

Mark, they swing through every year for a class or two...AFAIK there is no permanent presence here.

I have no experience with ATS but am somewhat prejudiced against them after reading articles written by their principal tech guy that contain misleading info and fabrications.

For example (speaking of the difference between notch/pin and keylock carabiners - note that the author uses [makes up?] a different name for the notch/pin design):

http://www.alpinets.com/carabiner.html

[i]Tooth Lock

Now what about the tooth design? Basically this is a

[ratagonia]

I tagged along on a U of U outing, it was not a class, but the trip the group did at the end of the school year. I probably learned more that one day of canyoneering than any other single day of canyoneering. They did things completely different from the way just about everyone else I had been with did things. They were total team work, it was interesting to watch and learn.

Everyone else teaches what I would call a guide/client or leader/follower method, yes, the others teach teamwork, but not nearly to the same degree or with the same advanced ideas. Going with these guys really shaped my personal idea of what canyoneering should be. Only downside is they were not as strong on rope work as other schools, but it was a good cross training for me. I don't think the U still has this classes as I've not heard anything about it for a while.

But Shane, have you been in a classroom with anyone else? You're not really the 'classroom type'...

At Zion Adventure Company, we can teach in many different ways depending on where the students are at, but really we try to stress teamwork, problem solving and understanding, if the personal dynamics fo the group will tolerate it. At Bogley Fest, I feel like we tried to do this on my trips, which were LIKE a ZAC classroom day, with the intensity level ratcheted down a bit.

Malia helped with this class last year. I'm sure they still do it, but I think it is a once-in-the-spring class.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Even if you don't know what a Kn or foot-pound is, it should be evident to the average reader that the author isn't entirely conversant with his subject. That he published the article as-is (i.e. w/o doing the little bit of research it would take to give accurate and useful info) shows poor judgment and leads me to question the overall integrity of the organization and its curriculum. YMMV, of course - I'm just a mite picky about my LIFE-safety instruction.

And the pickable examples from his website are many. If'n I tried to write a parody of a technical website, with every single fact wrong, it might be close to these examples.

It's called "BS".

T :moses:

[Iceaxe]

But Shane, have you been in a classroom with anyone else? You're not really the 'classroom type'...

True dat.... I'm more of a doer....

I wasn't in a class room with the U of U guys either.... so to me it was apples to apples.... It's just what I learned/noticed by observation...

I've observed them, you, Matt Moore, Dave Black and many others....

They just did things with a different style and from a different perspective than what I've observed from others.

Yeah... I know every instructor thinks he teaches the ultimate in team work.... but their students actually practiced it to a much higher degree once they left the program... and I've done enough routes with everyone's former students to know this is true.

The other item was this program was already in place when the ACA came to town, so what they were teaching was untainted by the concepts taught by the ACA. It was a completely pure outside source of knowledge from what many have been taught.... I'm not saying one method is better or preferred over the other.... it was just much different....

By today's standards the rope work taught by the U course would be considered primitive. Part of their 'teamwork" might also result from the fact that the entire class was made up of 18 to 24 year old hard body college students that were all in excellent physical condition, many were also highly gifted rock climbers. So at least that part is apples to oranges in some respects.

YMMV....

[ratagonia]

But Shane, have you been in a classroom with anyone else? You're not really the 'classroom type'...

True dat.... I'm more of a doer....

I wasn't in a class room with the U of U guys either.... so to me it was apples to apples.... It's just what I learned/noticed by observation...

I've observed them, you, Matt Moore, Dave Black and many others....

They just did things with a different style and from a different perspective than what I've observed from others.

Yeah... I know every instructor thinks he teaches the ultimate in team work.... but their students actually practiced it to a much higher degree once they left the program... and I've done enough routes with everyone's former students to know this is true.

The other item was this program was already in place when the ACA came to town, so what they were teaching was untainted by the concepts taught by the ACA. It was a completely pure outside source of knowledge from what many have been taught.... I'm not saying one method is better or preferred over the other.... it was just much different.... By today's standards the rope work taught be the U course would be considered primitive.

YMMV....

But, friend Shane, perhaps you hide really well but I have never seen you lurking in the background of one of my professional, classroom sessions.

You've done canyons with MY students???? Whom???????

But perhaps I press the point too far. Yes, teamwork is a fun, interesting and useful thing to teach people. But there are also other things to teach them, such as how to slide down a rope under control, or tie knots well, that are less glamorous but also important. And hard to have a good team going, if no one knows how to find an anchor.

T :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Tom, I'm sure you are the greatest instructor to ever walk on water....

But.... I don't have a dog in this fight... just noting some personal observations.... nothing more.... your opinion might differ....

As for what school/method/instructor is best I have no clue....

I have zero experience with Sports Chalet (I was just reporting the scheduling of Utah classes) and I only have secondary experience with most the other canyon schools.

***This post neither represents nor reflects the opinions of Climb-Utah.com (http://www.climb-utah.com) management. These statements may or may not be true. Iceaxe has been known to be full of shit.***

:blahblah:

[ratagonia]

But.... I don't have a dog in this fight... just noting some personal observations.... nothing more.... your opinion might differ....

As for what school/method/instructor is best I have no clue....

I have zero experience with Sports Chalet (I was just reporting the scheduling of Utah classes) and I only have secondary experience with most the other canyon schools.


But, friend Shane, you make blanket statements that are not true. I was merely pointing out that your blanket statements were not true.

'snuff said...

T :moses:

[Jaxx]

I loved going with Tom in Zion. He let us set stuff up and talk about what issues would come up and then when we didn't get it right he would tell us what was wrong and let us re-do it.

We didn't get the slowest group he ever had but I got the feeling we were pretty close :haha:

Thanks again Tom! :five:

[Felicia]

I have been in canyons with both Shane and Tom, although not at the same time.

Every canyon with you guys has been a great experience. You each have very different personalities and focus of interest. I have learned many things from both of you. You each have talents that you effectively share. I would gladly travel with both of you again.

Shane is K.I.S.S. and have fun. Always a great time of laughter and companionship.

I can say that our trip through Birch at the BogleyFest with Tom was awesome! It was an extra special day for me because the make-up of the group: my family, desert nomad and Tom. Tom

[Felicia]

Seldom do I notice advertisements on my fb page, but today one caught my eye, so I followed it: ATS

I was surprised at the large community of people. Of the 379 fans, I scrolled through about 250 and did not recognize a name.

I followed this link: http://canyonbeta.com/

This looked interesting: http://www.youtube.com/ATSadventures


:popcorn:

[ScoutColorado]

Interesting.
I poked around, and stumbled on their Canyon Rating System.
http://canyonbeta.com/2010/01/wccm-canyoneering-rating-and-route-difficulty-system/
Seems similar to, but not the same as the ACA system. i.e., the WCCM lists Class 3 as:
Class 3: Again a canyon route that can be traveled in either direction. Substantial route finding and climbing / boulder hopping skills needed to ascend or descend. Deep wades, small swims may be possible along with exposed down climbs followed by additional sections of class 2. A group harness and small rope may be a smart item to bring in the event of an injury.
and the ACA class 3 is:
Exposed technical climbing. Down-climbing could be difficult and dangerous; most people will rappel. Rope required for belays and single-pitch rappels. Obvious natural or fixed anchors. Retreat up canyon will require ascending fixed ropes. Basic pothole escape techniques (i.e. partner assist, counter-weights) may also be required. See route description for more information.

and ACA has 4 levels where WCCM has 5.
This is worrisome, because the WCCM system is so close - number, letter, roman numeral - but mean different things. A person expecting a "3" canyon in a WCCM system wouldn't necessarily bring a rope system, but that would be necessary in a ACA class 3.
A "3 B III" canyon - according to who? It wouldn't be so bad if the systems were obviously different. This instead could be a disaster.

Am I missing something? If so, I apologize for the the confusion.
RR :sad:

[brizack]

The bottom line is don't use a rating system if you don't understand it, whether it is the ACA's or ATS's. Neither group has a monopoly on canyoneering ratings or methods so self-reliance is key....do your homework and make your own informed decisions.

By the way, I've taken numerous canyoneering classes from the ATS folks (and none from the ACA). I've found the guys at ATS to be great teachers. Sure, they have their own methodology, but they definitely do a good job of conveying the information to the students and are also always open to discussing other methodologies and opposing viewpoints.

[Iceaxe]

And just a heads up/warning.... The ACA recently revised their rating system.... and in my humble opinion created what will eventually become a huge rating nightmare....

I mean really: 4C3 S XX III..... :roll:

The one great advantage the original rating system had was it was simple and everyone who sprayed beta was using the same system....

So.... like the last caller noted.... make certain you understand the rating system used for the beta you are looking at. It's also a good idea to try and get a general feel for how the author of the beta rates things, all the published guides are slightly different.

:2thumbs:

Moderator Note: Discussion on Canyon Rating Systems has been moved to:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20209

.