Relative Newbies - Zion in July

[sarahlizzy]

Hi everyone.

I'm going to be part of a group of six women, variously from the UK and California spending a week in Zion in July. We're looking to do some technical canyoneering, and all have different experience levels.

A couple of us, myself included, have been to Zion several times before, most recently last year. However, in all visits previous to last year, we'd not done anything more advanced than hiking Angels Landing, the Subway bottom-up, and messing about with handlines and such in Hidden Canyon. Last year we wanted to broaden our horizons a bit and got some instruction from Zion Rock and Mountain, and then went through The Subway, top-down.

Four of us from tat trip will be on this trip too. The other two have never done any canyoneering at all, but have some climbing experience. All six of us have some rappelling experience, and in particular, those of us in the UK have been increasingly finding spare weekends to go and get some rappelling practice, so we're reasonably comfortable setting up rappels, anchors, safety tethers, and so on (the picture is me from two weekends ago).

For this year's trip, we plan to start off with The Subway (assuming we get the lottery tickets - competition seems fierce!), then perhaps spread Keyhole and Echo Canyons out over the next few days, as they seem to be nice starter canyons, and hopefully finish the week with Pine Creek.

Does this sound like a sensible itinerary given our experience levels? I realise that theoretical knowledge and rappelling outside canyon environments is no substitute for experience in canyons. The four of us who did The Subway last time found it pretty straightforward (although we were kinda shocked by the group of teenagers doing it just behind us who had no equipment beyond a single strand of webbing - the consensus seemed to be that they were lucky to get out without at least one broken ankle), and I feel pretty confident about The Subway again, as well as Keyhole and Echo. That last rap in Pine Creek is something I'm a bit apprehensive about though, as while some of us have done some short overhanging raps (and are planning to get some more experience here in the UK from a handy disused rail viaduct that's a popular rappelling spot, and gives us the height and the overhang), this one is still a bit daunting!

Would appreciate any thoughts, even if they're, "You're all completely insane and are probably going to die!"

http://www.sarahlizzy.com/HayTor_Wall_Sarah2.jpg

[DiscGo]

Hi. Welcome to the site! I am probably the least qualified to answer but that itinerary sounds pretty reasonable, depending on how well you actually know what you are doing. Pinecreek has a long rappel at the end (100 feet), meaning you'd have to have a fairly long rope, and if any of you struggle with heights there not really much of a way out except for rappelling down or life-lining out. It sounds like you are probably one of the Californians of your group? If you can make it, you should come to BogleyFest on the last weekend of June and check the canyons out with some more experienced guides and then at least one of you will be familiar with the area (unless you are doing your trip earlier than July).

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15843

[Sombeech]

Welcome to Bogley! What part of the UK is your group from?

[jman]

Smart women, you've done some good research thus far...anyway, those are mostly the best "beginner" routes with beginner leadership.

Subway can be done without any technical gear - I've done it. But its best on your part to bring a 50ft hand rope (more used as a handline). From the picture, I ASSume you are pretty confident in rappelling and leading the group - so definitely the Subway is probably the best route/canyon for a canyooneer noob. It tests their attitute towards canyoneering, its a semi-long hike (so tests their endurance), and needs good leadership overcoming the obstacles (which your friends can hopefully do - if they can't do this one, I would skip Pinecreek).

Keyhole can be completed in under 3hours (even for beginners as Shane/Iceaxe would say commonsense is your "most powerful weapon" in canyoneering). Keyhole has some cold water so be prepared for it. This one is a piece of cake and will probably be a favorite of the group - cause its a short hike in and out, but yet packed with a goodies - especially my favorite the "flooded hallway".

Echo is just like Keyhole but as a longer approach and has more obstacles and just as fun, and more cold than Keyhole.

Pinecreek is a personal favorite. Goodsize rappels, lots of water, short approach and just long enough to make it have repeated value. Plus, at the bottom there is a fun 10ft swimhole to mess around in. I would save this for last - due to the more challenging and higher rappels, but if you can complete the aforementioned, you'll do just fine.

Just dress very warm, bring wetsuits, and get accurate beta for your routes, have confidence in your knot tying skills, and a good attitude and you'll be just fine.

[sarahlizzy]

Thanks for the responses, everyone:


Pinecreek has a long rappel at the end (100 feet), meaning you'd have to have a fairly long rope, and if any of you struggle with heights there not really much of a way out except for rappelling down or life-lining out. It sounds like you are probably one of the Californians of your group? If you can make it, you should come to BogleyFest on the last weekend of June and check the canyons out with some more experienced guides and then at least one of you will be familiar with the area

I'm one of the UK contingent, and sadly we'll not be landing in the US until after BogleyFest, otherwise that would probably have been really useful.

I am nervous with heights, but they don't paralyse me. I've bene up and down Angels' Landing a few times and am happy doing it without holding the chains. I appreciate that the last rap in Pine Creek has an airy anchor, and until I'm attached to it with a tether I'll probably be quite uncomfortable. I figure for that, we'll send one of the climbers out to the anchor first. Once I'm attached to the anchor and/or on belay I'll likely be perfectly fine. There's another of our group who also gets nervous - that's part of why we plan to do the other stuff first (and we'll be hiking Angels Landing on one of the days we're not canyoneering), and check we can all handle the heights and exposure.


From the picture, I ASSume you are pretty confident in rappelling and leading the group - so definitely the Subway is probably the best route/canyon for a canyooneer noob. It tests their attitute towards canyoneering, its a semi-long hike (so tests their endurance), and needs good leadership overcoming the obstacles (which your friends can hopefully do - if they can't do this one, I would skip Pinecreek).

This was pretty much exactly my thought process, and it's nice to have some confirmation that I'm not completely out in left field. The four of us who did The Subway last year did it by rappelling the trickier bits, mostly because we figured it was prudent. We'll plan on doing that again this year, and see how the two who haven't been in a canyon before handle that. If they're OK, we'll check out how we do with Keyhole and Echo, and then see if everyone is comfortable with the idea of Pine Creek. That's why we're saving it until last.

We'll all be equipped with wetsuits, and each have our own harnesses, helmets, safety tethers, biners, etc.


Welcome to Bogley! What part of the UK is your group from?

Cambridgeshire, in eastern England, which is about as far from canyoneering country as you can get - our rivers take ten miles to descent eighteen inches, although England being the size it is, we're only 3 hours drive from a national park with plenty of nice opportunities for practising rappelling skills.

Anyway, thanks once again everyone, for the kind welcome.

Sarah

[zoeimogen]

From the picture, I ASSume you are pretty confident in rappelling and leading the group - so definitely the Subway is probably the best route/canyon for a canyooneer noob. It tests their attitute towards canyoneering, its a semi-long hike (so tests their endurance), and needs good leadership overcoming the obstacles (which your friends can hopefully do - if they can't do this one, I would skip Pinecreek).

This was pretty much exactly my thought process, and it's nice to have some confirmation that I'm not completely out in left field. The four of us who did The Subway last year did it by rappelling the trickier bits, mostly because we figured it was prudent. We'll plan on doing that again this year, and see how the two who haven't been in a canyon before handle that. If they're OK, we'll check out how we do with Keyhole and Echo, and then see if everyone is comfortable with the idea of Pine Creek. That's why we're saving it until last.

I think you're playing down our experience a fair bit, of the two people who didn't do Subway with us, at least one goes climbing regularly which is bound to be a help! (I don't know how much outdoors stuff she's done though)

[SLCmntjunkie]

I appreciate that the last rap in Pine Creek has an airy anchor, and until I'm attached to it with a tether I'll probably be quite uncomfortable. I figure for that, we'll send one of the climbers out to the anchor first. Once I'm attached to the anchor and/or on belay I'll likely be perfectly fine.

On that last rappel there is a small arch about 5' back from the edge. You can wrap a sling around that to protect everyone until they are on rappel. Pine Creek is really pretty easy, that last rappel can be a bit scary for some though.

[sarahlizzy]

On that last rappel there is a small arch about 5' back from the edge. You can wrap a sling around that to protect everyone until they are on rappel. Pine Creek is really pretty easy, that last rappel can be a bit scary for some though.

That sounds absolutely perfect!

[ratagonia]

Thanks for the responses, everyone:

I am nervous with heights, but they don't paralyse me. I've bene up and down Angels' Landing a few times and am happy doing it without holding the chains. I appreciate that the last rap in Pine Creek has an airy anchor, and until I'm attached to it with a tether I'll probably be quite uncomfortable. I figure for that, we'll send one of the climbers out to the anchor first.

Welcome to the group, Sarah and Zoe.

At the last rap, there is a small arch about 5 feet back from the exposed anchor. Set up slings on that for your safety leash, THEN set the rope up on the exposed final anchor.

It's just the start which is scary!!!

While doing the Subway without equipment CAN be done, only the young and indestructible would suggest this for other people. Yes, SOME people get away with it.

Consider doing the Russell Gulch variation, which has 3 rappels of almost 100 feet, and is quite lovely. It'll give you some more experience with longish raps, and the last one overhangs. And its FUN!

Both Keyhole and Echo are quite short. Depending on when you can get a Subway permit, you might want to do one of these first to get the cobwebs out. Keyhole is 1-2 hours car to car. The approach is 1/4 mile or less (maybe 1/4 km). So to say Echo has a "longer approach", while true, is a bit of a jest. Echo is 3-6 hours, but most of that is hiking - the rappel section is quite short.

Have a great trip.

Tom

[zoeimogen]

Consider doing the Russell Gulch variation, which has 3 rappels of almost 100 feet, and is quite lovely. It'll give you some more experience with longish raps, and the last one overhangs. And its FUN!

Is Russell Gulch the route where you rappel into the start of the Subway itself? I think we saw some people doing that last time and personally I'd like to try it - I'm not sure all members of our party would be OK starting with multiple 100' rappels though.

[ratagonia]

Consider doing the Russell Gulch variation, which has 3 rappels of almost 100 feet, and is quite lovely. It'll give you some more experience with longish raps, and the last one overhangs. And its FUN!

Is Russell Gulch the route where you rappel into the start of the Subway itself? I think we saw some people doing that last time and personally I'd like to try it - I'm not sure all members of our party would be OK starting with multiple 100' rappels though.

A good reason to go do the Keyhole first! (if the schedule works out). The rappels are not easy, but not really all that hard either. An appropriate level of challenge.

T

[sarahlizzy]

At the last rap, there is a small arch about 5 feet back from the exposed anchor. Set up slings on that for your safety leash, THEN set the rope up on the exposed final anchor.

It's just the start which is scary!!!


Perfect! Thanks :-)


While doing the Subway without equipment CAN be done, only the young and indestructible would suggest this for other people. Yes, SOME people get away with it.

Consider doing the Russell Gulch variation, which has 3 rappels of almost 100 feet, and is quite lovely. It'll give you some more experience with longish raps, and the last one overhangs. And its FUN!

I fear none of us are young and indestructible!

The Russell Gulch entrance is something a few of us would certainly be keen on doing, but we haven't been able to find any notes describing the route, other than telling one to head down the drainage rather than cross it on the approach, so I'm a bit nervous about ending up in the wrong place.


Both Keyhole and Echo are quite short. Depending on when you can get a Subway permit, you might want to do one of these first to get the cobwebs out. Keyhole is 1-2 hours car to car. The approach is 1/4 mile or less (maybe 1/4 km). So to say Echo has a "longer approach", while true, is a bit of a jest. Echo is 3-6 hours, but most of that is hiking - the rappel section is quite short.

We're arriving the evening of the 30th of June so 1st of July will be our first full day in Zion. Have put the 2nd in as our first Subway choice, so if we get that doing another canyon on the 1st is a distinct possibility. There are reasons some of our group are keen on doing the Subway first though (mainly because we figure it's less claustrophobic than Keyhole and Echo and the water is probably less cold - is that a fair assessment?)


Have a great trip.

Thank you, Tom!

Sarah

[ratagonia]

Smart women, you've done some good research thus far...anyway, those are mostly the best "beginner" routes with beginner leadership.


I thought she was a smart woman, for including an attractive picture of herself, and allowing an opportunity for a swarm of valiant knights wanting to answer her questions to form... :haha:

Tom :moses:

[sarahlizzy]

Smart women, you've done some good research thus far...anyway, those are mostly the best "beginner" routes with beginner leadership.


I thought she was a smart woman, for including an attractive picture of herself, and allowing an opportunity for a swarm of valiant knights wanting to answer her questions to form... :haha:

Tom :moses:

Damn, busted! :D

[Brian in SLC]

I thought she was a smart woman, for including an attractive picture of herself, and allowing an opportunity for a swarm of valiant knights wanting to answer her questions to form...

Wait, there was a person in that picture?

Hey, that looks like gritstone. Is it from the Peak District??

-Brian in SLC (who has yet to visit "the peak")

[Jaxx]

We're arriving the evening of the 30th of June so 1st of July will be our first full day in Zion. Have put the 2nd in as our first Subway choice, so if we get that doing another canyon on the 1st is a distinct possibility. There are reasons some of our group are keen on doing the Subway first though (mainly because we figure it's less claustrophobic than Keyhole and Echo and the water is probably less cold - is that a fair assessment?)
Sarah

That is going to be a super busy time in Zion due to our celebration of July 4th (Independence day). Everyone will have work off. You may want to rethink that date. I would also put in a couple of days in for the lottery. That way you help your chances. Have all 6 of you put in for the lottery.

I wouldn't think doing keyhole first would create any problems. You may want to take a wetsuit to stay warm. My wife always does but I never do. I am of course about twice her size. So I have a built in wetsuit.

You could always do Keyhole a 2 or 3 times just for fun. It will give you practice in the cold water and rappelling. You can warm up after each time doing the steep hot hike back to the start. The slickrock approach faces south so it gets hot during the day. It is very short though.

Even if doing keyhole multiple times I would have some other hikes planned that day. Keyhole is very short. We usually do it the night we get down there with headlamps. I wouldn't suggest it for your first time through though. It is a beautiful slot and you can't see that in the dark.

[ratagonia]

While doing the Subway without equipment CAN be done, only the young and indestructible would suggest this for other people. Yes, SOME people get away with it.

Consider doing the Russell Gulch variation, which has 3 rappels of almost 100 feet, and is quite lovely. It'll give you some more experience with longish raps, and the last one overhangs. And its FUN!

I fear none of us are young and indestructible!

The Russell Gulch entrance is something a few of us would certainly be keen on doing, but we haven't been able to find any notes describing the route, other than telling one to head down the drainage rather than cross it on the approach, so I'm a bit nervous about ending up in the wrong place.

Ask, and ye shall receive...



We're arriving the evening of the 30th of June so 1st of July will be our first full day in Zion. Have put the 2nd in as our first Subway choice, so if we get that doing another canyon on the 1st is a distinct possibility. There are reasons some of our group are keen on doing the Subway first though (mainly because we figure it's less claustrophobic than Keyhole and Echo and the water is probably less cold - is that a fair assessment?)

Sarah

It is a fair assessment, but few find Keyhole and Echo claustrophobic. Cold - certainly can be.

But Subway is a long day, with a lot of hiking in the heat at the end. If you're coming direct from the UK, you'll need a few days for your body to get used to the time schedule, the heat and the very dry air. Sounds like you've put a couple days in there for that.

Tom :moses:

[sarahlizzy]

Hey, that looks like gritstone. Is it from the Peak District??

-Brian in SLC (who has yet to visit "the peak")

It's granite (great stuff for ripping elbows to shreds - ouch!) - Hay Tor on Dartmoor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hay_Tor

Although I did grow up near the Peak District, and am hoping to go there this weekend (for some rappelling, what else?) :-)

[ratagonia]

I thought she was a smart woman, for including an attractive picture of herself, and allowing an opportunity for a swarm of valiant knights wanting to answer her questions to form... :haha:

Tom :moses:

Damn, busted! :D

Even transparent, it still works ...

T

[sarahlizzy]

The Russell Gulch entrance is something a few of us would certainly be keen on doing, but we haven't been able to find any notes describing the route, other than telling one to head down the drainage rather than cross it on the approach, so I'm a bit nervous about ending up in the wrong place.

Ask, and ye shall receive...

If you're willing to provide, I would be most grateful for such :-)

[sarahlizzy]

That is going to be a super busy time in Zion due to our celebration of July 4th (Independence day). Everyone will have work off. You may want to rethink that date. I would also put in a couple of days in for the lottery. That way you help your chances. Have all 6 of you put in for the lottery.


The timing is unfortunate, but we're constrained to the week surrounding that weekend by other commitments, sadly.

Have put in 2nd and 3rd lottery choices, so fingers crossed. The 2nd, being a Thursday, still seems reasonably quiet, so hopefully we'll get the permit. It's booked for all six people.

Failing that, I guess there's always the early queue for a walk-in permit. Jet lag's gotta be useful for something, right?

[CarpeyBiggs]

even with no luck on the permits, there is still fun to be had. consider fat man's misery.

[ratagonia]

The Russell Gulch entrance is something a few of us would certainly be keen on doing, but we haven't been able to find any notes describing the route, other than telling one to head down the drainage rather than cross it on the approach, so I'm a bit nervous about ending up in the wrong place.

Ask, and ye shall receive...

If you're willing to provide, I would be most grateful for such :-)

(avoiding huge opportunity for innuendo, in the interest of good taste...)

here: http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16577

Tom

[ratagonia]

even with no luck on the permits, there is still fun to be had. consider fat man's misery.

what, at NIGHT or something?

you were kidding, right???

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

here: http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16577

Tom

That's fantastic! Thank you!

[Brian in SLC]

Although I did grow up near the Peak District, and am hoping to go there this weekend (for some rappelling, what else?) :-)

Not rappelling. Rock climbing.

Is "rappelling" (abseiling) popular there? As a sport unto its own?

Or is it more common that folks learn to rappel as part of climbing?

Do climbers there have a special name (maybe derogatory) that they call rappellers?

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[sarahlizzy]

Although I did grow up near the Peak District, and am hoping to go there this weekend (for some rappelling, what else?) :-)

Not rappelling. Rock climbing.

Is "rappelling" (abseiling) popular there? As a sport unto its own?

Or is it more common that folks learn to rappel as part of climbing?

Do climbers there have a special name (maybe derogatory) that they call rappellers?

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

As far as I can tell, it's not that popular, and climbers do look down a bit on abseilers (been saying rappelling thus far because a) I learned how to do it in Utah, and b) I figure when in Rome...). Mostly, rappelling/abseiling seems to be done as either something one gets sponsored for, for charity (in the same vein as bungy jumps), or as one of those corporate team building days, and there are plenty of companies who specialise in offering to get you down the side of a bridge or cliff with no experience on that basis.

I'm not a rock climber myself, so I don't know how much of it they tend to do - the closest thing I've done to actual climbing is Snowdon via the Crib Goch route ("entertaining" in less than perfect weather), which is more of an airy scramble than a climb (you don't need any equipment).

[Iceaxe]

Food for thought... combining Echo and Keyhole into the same day is very popular. I like to do Echo in the morning so you are in the shade on the hike up. Finish the route, head into Springdale for a nice lunch and than complete Keyhole in the afternoon....

It makes for a pleasent and easy paced day.

Orderville Gulch makes a nice back up plan if you fail to get Subway permits.

:cool2:

[Rob L]

Hello, Sarah:

Although I can't contribute much about technical canyoneering in Zion (I'm more of an off-piste hiker there...do a search for posts started by me), as a fellow Brit I hope you have a great time. The folks here are a tremendous resource.

Zion is one of my best non-Europe getaways (usually about every couple of years). July however is very busy, not only with the great unwashed, but with permits for the interesting places, whether popular or not.

If you're looking for a nice place to camp, I can recommend Lava Point. Although a way off the beaten track, the evening peace is a lot better than the main campgrounds.

As it's on a first-come, first served basis, you would need to be there well before 9am to get a space from a departing camper.

Rob
from equally flat Leicester.

[sarahlizzy]

If you're looking for a nice place to camp, I can recommend Lava Point. Although a way off the beaten track, the evening peace is a lot better than the main campgrounds.

Hi Rob. Good to meet you!

Thanks for the tip. We're already booked in the Pioneer Lodge in Springdale though - they have a hot tub (these things are important - got to deal with that lactic acid build-up, you know - yeah, lactic acid, that's totally the reason)! :naughty:

[rivera1181]

I would second the reccomendation for Orderville, we did that canyon at the end of October and just loved it. It is great for a fun all day adventure.

Keyhole was also our first canyon and it is alot of fun, short and sweet!

[tanya]

I third it! If I was a newbie and going with non-experts, then I would choose 2 easier canyons like Orderville and Subway and ones that you don't have to wear wet/drysuits in that time of year.

:nod:

[Cirrus2000]

Orderville is beautiful, and a great day-long adventure, but the technical aspects of it are truly minimal. If you have people practising rappelling to prepare for this trip, they'll feel cheated when they get to the end of Orderville (IMHO).

At a minimum, do Keyhole - I liked it so much last October that after my friends went home Sunday night, I returned and did it solo Monday morning. A sweet, sweet way to spend an hour! If in addition to technical stuff like Keyhole and Pine Creek, you want a long beautiful hike, by all means do Orderville!

[Iceaxe]

You can always spice up Orderville by entering through Birch if you want more techie.... Nothing harder about Birch than what you already have on the menu. Just get an early start. No permit required for the Birch entrance which is a nice benefit.

[sarahlizzy]

Thanks guys. Orderville via Birch does look extremely interesting. Have always just managed to avoid descending Orderville for various reasons (flow too high, group too worn out after previous days' hiking, etc.), but if we don't get our Subway permits, that looks like a really nice alternative.

[tanya]

Birch is one of my favorite canyons. So is Das Boot, which is the awesome way to enter the Subway.

[ratagonia]

Thanks guys. Orderville via Birch does look extremely interesting. Have always just managed to avoid descending Orderville for various reasons (flow too high, group too worn out after previous days' hiking, etc.), but if we don't get our Subway permits, that looks like a really nice alternative.

But, Birch/Orderville is REALLY long. It requires being snappy on the raps in Birch and getting to Orderville at a reasonable hour.

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

Thanks guys. Orderville via Birch does look extremely interesting. Have always just managed to avoid descending Orderville for various reasons (flow too high, group too worn out after previous days' hiking, etc.), but if we don't get our Subway permits, that looks like a really nice alternative.

But, Birch/Orderville is REALLY long. It requires being snappy on the raps in Birch and getting to Orderville at a reasonable hour.


That might be a bit much then, especially given our relative lack of experience. Might have to save that for 2010.

[Don]

Smart women, you've done some good research thus far...anyway, those are mostly the best "beginner" routes with beginner leadership.


I thought she was a smart woman, for including an attractive picture of herself, and allowing an opportunity for a swarm of valiant knights wanting to answer her questions to form... :haha:

Tom :moses:

Climber girls, brit accents and they plan their own canyoneering! Answer questions, hell, I'll volunteer to carry their packs

[Iceaxe]

That might be a bit much then, especially given our relative lack of experience. Might have to save that for 2010.

Just stick to the Orderville only route. It's a great canyon, the Birch entrance was mentioned as an option for those wanting "more".....

Orderville Gulch
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/orderville.htm


http://climb-utah.com/Zion/Files/orderville1.jpg

[zoeimogen]

[quote=Don]Climber girls, brit accents and they plan their own canyoneering! Answer questions, hell, I'll volunteer to carry their packs

[sarahlizzy]

[quote=zoeimogen][quote=Don]Climber girls, brit accents and they plan their own canyoneering! Answer questions, hell, I'll volunteer to carry their packs

[zoeimogen]

Dunno about my ego, but with 200 feet of 9mm rope I'm wondering about that pack. I see a few 20 mile hikes coming on before we fly out, carrying some weight, to get acclimatised.

Unless you wanna carry it? :haha:

Well, you're welcome to join me when I go for a run or something - I have offered! I should be doing 4 and 8 mile hikes (In one or two hours respectively) over broken terrain (Woods etc) with a 25-35kg pack within a couple of months or so. After my somewhat poor showing last year due to poor fitness, I suspect I may be one of the fittest people on the trip this time round!

[Sombeech]

Cambridgeshire, in eastern England, which is about as far from canyoneering country as you can get

Ah, cool. I've spent some time there.

[stefan]

Hi everyone.
.
.
.
Would appreciate any thoughts, even if they're, "You're all completely insane and are probably going to die!"



:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:

you all are completely insane and are probably going to die!
but at least you'll die in a gorgeous landscape

please post a trip report upon your return. (looking forward to it)

[sarahlizzy]

please post a trip report upon your return. (looking forward to it)

Will do, assuming we avoid the nasty death bit :haha:

[stefan]

please post a trip report upon your return. (looking forward to it)

Will do, assuming we avoid the nasty death bit :haha:

excellent :2thumbs:

[rick t]

I too would give Orderville a glowing recommendation if you don't pull a Subway in the lottery. Many of my friends prefer it to the Subway.

Shane- hey big guy, stop fantasizing about canyoneering with the chicks from across the pond, and pay attention- you let that "50 ft handline in the Subway" slip right by you there. Jman, if you're good you can just down climb the subway exit move, but most people are going to want a 60 foot rope there, not a 50.

[ratagonia]

I too would give Orderville a glowing recommendation if you don't pull a Subway in the lottery. Many of my friends prefer it to the Subway.

Shane- hey big guy, stop fantasizing about canyoneering with the chicks from across the pond, and pay attention- you let that "50 ft handline in the Subway" slip right by you there. Jman, if you're good you can just down climb the subway exit move, but most people are going to want a 60 foot rope there, not a 50.

perhaps this counts as "piling on", but:

Handlining? Handlining is stupid. Lots of people get hurt right there, because they handline something they could easily rappel. Sure, the upper part is a good handline experience - a low angle slab. It's the vertical part and the transition to it where people go oopsey!!

But, if you're young and uh, not carrying a full package upstairs, go ahead and handline it.

(And you KNOW not to get me started on helmets!!)

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Hahaha.... heck, I had done Subway a dozen times before I knew we were actually "canyoneering" and needed to get all official with ropes and helmets and stuff...... ahhhh youth, to bad it's wasted on the young.....

[rick t]

I do understand that Tom is given to bombastic rhetoric, and that he is never one to be content with a small touch up, when you can always just nuke it and start over, but never the less, I am going to take exception to his one liner-

[ratagonia]

I do understand ... Tough being stuck at home with nothing to do because of the rain, eh Tom?

Just lots of threatening, not much in the way of actual rain here.

Too MUCH to do. Leaving for the puddle Thursday Morning! Five days of bliss.

I downclimb the other way. Spotting works well, and good coaching can go a long way. I still reserve handlining for very limited situations.

Tom :moses:

[Deathcricket]

What about knee pads? I did everything right, helmet, proper rappel device, no hand lining, 40 feet of nice thick 3mm rope, and I still ruined a perfectly good pair of shorts as you can see.

[sarahlizzy]

I've been in The Subway twice - most recently last year we did it top-down, rappelling the drops, including that last one. the first time was a few years ago and we hiked bottom-up, in a group of 4, none of whom had any technical experience. When we reached the Subway section, someone had left a piece of knotted webbing as a handline down from that last rap anchor to the ground. I was able to get up and down using it, enabling me to progress briefly as far as Keyhole Falls, but none of the rest of the group (two women, one man) was able to pull themselves up the handline. I don't recall having any trouble getting back down, but I do remember I felt it was a bit precarious at the time. I'd be happy to descend this part with a handline again, and perhaps a couple of others in our July group would be, but I know two or three will definitely have trouble doing it as anything other than a rappel.

[ratagonia]

I've been in The Subway twice - most recently last year we did it top-down, rappelling the drops, including that last one. the first time was a few years ago and we hiked bottom-up, in a group of 4, none of whom had any technical experience. When we reached the Subway section, someone had left a piece of knotted webbing as a handline down from that last rap anchor to the ground. I was able to get up and down using it, enabling me to progress briefly as far as Keyhole Falls, but none of the rest of the group (two women, one man) was able to pull themselves up the handline. I don't recall having any trouble getting back down, but I do remember I felt it was a bit precarious at the time. I'd be happy to descend this part with a handline again, and perhaps a couple of others in our July group would be, but I know two or three will definitely have trouble doing it as anything other than a rappel.

It's not that handlining it is SOOOOO dangerous. But there is a history of broken bones at this spot. Me, I'm really not interested in broken bones, at least not my own. Been there, done that, wasn't so much fun. Therefore, I don't handline here. There is a downclimb sequence further upcanyon that is 'better'. The final drop is still kind of high, though, so ...

Better is to set up a rappel off the log that makes the waterfall. A fun rappel. low risk.

Apply your own risk. But speaking to the public, it is just good manners to be conservative and give the safest way to do it. If people want to use a more-risky method, they are welcome to do so. It's a free country, at least for non-Moslems.

For all we know, that charming picture of SarahLizzy could be 20 years old, and she weighs 15 stones now... in which case handlining it would not be a good choice.

Tom :moses:

[jman]

K, I realize when I said you can do the subway without ropes I was being serious. Then tom made me realize that I'm the "invicinible" young and dumb age. Shane said he was once there too. I guess I'm not as conservative as other people when it comes to canyoneering, but I like to try new things. I think of it literally as a Man vs. Wild dilemma. "I'm in this situation and what things can I use before I break out the ropes." So far, no incidents (yet, as most of you would say, but I'm not worried. I'm a very safe person people say). I'm an aggressive driver too on the road, but I have never been in an accident where I have driven. My new philosophy is absolutely no texting or phone calls while driving. So, while my approach to the subway may seem "dangerous" to others, I'm sticking with it.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE rappelling and rock climbing, but I love to use my brain and conqueror the obstacle without aids, if that makes sense. For example, Granary Canyon in Moab has a "mandatory" 5 rappels, but I have done it to 2 rappels. But at the same time, if I feel any ounce of worry on anything, I will take the safest approach.

Sometimes I have to realize that others are not like me and think the same. But with Sarah or whatever her name is, she looks young and daring like me and thus I suggested it to her. Then I suppose, Tom, Shane and others have to make sure GPS coordinates are as accurate as can be, rope lengths are more than enough, and calculate route time just right - otherwise they take upon themselves a high amount of responsiblity, which kinda scares me actually.

Anywho, people say 70 feet in long enough, Deathcricket said he used 40feet of 3mm (and by the pic it looks doublestranded too). So I'm stickin by what I said cause I've measured it - 50feet will do on the last "rappel" of the Subway either used as a handline or rappel.

[sarahlizzy]

But there is a history of broken bones at this spot. Me, I'm really not interested in broken bones

I quite concur! I think it would rather ruin ones week, at least. I'm surprised the teenagers I mentioned in my original post, who were following us through last year didn't collect any (one of our group heard them say to each other, "hey, that lot in front of us are real experts, look!", presumably because we had this amazing stuff called rope with us - it was the first time any of us had rappelled by ourselves).

And the picture in question was taken last month :D

[sarahlizzy]

Sometimes I have to realize that others are not like me and think the same. But with Sarah or whatever her name is, she looks young and daring like me and thus I suggested it to her.

Why, thank you! I'm actually in my mid 30s, so youngish (ish, ish), but my knees are not what they were when I was 20, and no-longer appreciate the shock-loading from the sort of jump downclimbing that first obstacle on the Subway route might involve.

It also occurs to me that, were one of us to suffer a broken ankle, it might take a lot of hours of significant discomfort before nice strong painkillers were administered, so methinks we'll do it the boring way. :nod:

Sarah

[ratagonia]

It also occurs to me that, were one of us to suffer a broken ankle, it might take a lot of hours of significant discomfort before nice strong painkillers were administered, so methinks we'll do it the boring way. :nod:

Sarah

The broken knee in there:

5:00 pm - broke knee
9:00 pm - reported
7:00 am - rangers start hike in
9:00 am - emt arrives, meds administered
4:00 pm - helicopter arrives and does short haul
5:00 pm - heli arrives at St George hospital.

Rough terrain = slow rescue.

6:00 pm - Tom asks the backcountry desk to call Ray and ask for a special permit favor. Desk person points out that that might not be a good idea, as Ray has been out in the sun all day. Tom sees the wisdom of that point of view.

Tom :moses:

[sarahlizzy]

*wince*

That would make the trip memorable for all the wrong reasons. Ouch!

[Cirrus2000]

It also occurs to me that, were one of us to suffer a broken ankle, it might take a lot of hours of significant discomfort before nice strong painkillers were administered, so methinks we'll do it the boring way.
My first aid kit = lots of ibuprofen, naproxen, acetaminophen, and especially codeine. And something to sop up blood. I'm already rapping off the tourniquet...

[Iceaxe]

The last rap in Subway using the nice standard anchors requires a 60' rope to be done correctly.... several sources of publicly broadband Subway beta say 50' and they are wrong. With 50' you will end up dropping the last few feet, which is the ankle breaking few feet Tom keeps warning about when handlining. Yes you can do it with a 50' rope, but not what I would call correctly.

The problem with sharing beta with the general public is you need to error on the side of conservative. My advice on the Subway is to carry a 60' rope and rappeling gear.... better to have and not need, than to need and not have....

When I first did the Subway I was the macho, athletic, 25 y/o, major stud type dude and we though nothing of climbing down everything. Now that I'm older and doing the route with my wife and kids we rappel all the obstacles.... or at least they all do.... I still down climb them because I still think of myself as the macho, athletic, 25 y/o, major stud type dude. :mrgreen:

PS: my first-aid kit contains some awesome drugs. If I'm going to be sitting somewhere for 8 hours with a broken leg I plan on enjoying it. :nod:

:popcorn:

[Randi]

Handlining? Handlining is stupid. Lots of people get hurt right there, because they handline something they could easily rappel. Sure, the upper part is a good handline experience - a low angle slab. It's the vertical part and the transition to it where people go oopsey!!

But, if you're young and uh, not carrying a full package upstairs, go ahead and handline it.

(And you KNOW not to get me started on helmets!!)

Tom :moses:

I'm backing you on this sentiment Tom!

I haven't done subway, but I used a handline in Imlay that was a bit dubious, and I was thinking..."hmmm, maybe I should rappel this?" Everyone else handlined it, so at the last minute I thought, "oh what the heck, I can probably do it". I should've rappelled it!
I didn't land very gracefully, and that little "oopsy" pretty much hobbled me for the rest of the trip and the next day! The next day, I was suppossed to do the elusive Subway trip!

If in doubt at all...even the slightest bit, rap it! It might take a minute longer, but it sure takes the guesswork out of it.

[sarahlizzy]

In today's email I got the good news that we managed to get a place in the Subway lottery! We'll be down there on Wednesday 1st of July, which wasn't our first choice, but glad to have got in at all given how many people applied.