ATC a problem?

[Strieby]

I recently heard that when using Bluewater's canyon series ropes it is bad to use an ATC since the stretch factors on the core and the sheath are different and it can lead to rope bunching. I have this rope and I use the Reverso I have not yet had this problem. Bluewater recomends using a caving rack even over an 8. Two questions: Has anyone had any problems with this rope in an ATC and What are some suggestions for a small light rack rather than the large ones which I see around?

[Iceaxe]

From an engineering stand point I have a hard time believing this is true. The rope doesn't know what type of rappel device you are using. And ATC doesn't bend or stretch the rope and more or less then any other rappel device.

From a marketing stand point this would be bad as it would severely restrict Bluewater rope sales since people are more likely to switch ropes over rappel device.

Or I could be clueless....

I've rapped on hundreds of Bluewater ropes and I use an ATC XP most of the time. I've never had a problem.

:cool2:

[trackrunner]

This was talked over on the ACA forum

Appears to be true but that BlueWater is convering themselves with this warning. Tom Jones aka Ratagonia gives some helpfull hints using an ATC to minimize sheath slippage. Others have good coments too.

http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2708

[Brian in SLC]

I guess I wouldn't have believed it until I clicked on their website and read this:

"CANYONEERING ROPES
Canyoneering Ropes

We recommend careful use of belay devices with canyoneering ropes. If used as descenders, these belay devices can damage sheath strands at the sharp radius at the bottom of the device. These belay devices can cause elongation of the fiber which leads to sheath slippage."

Didn't see anything about recommending a rappel rack.

I have two older canyon pro 8mm ropes and I've never had an issue with them and I use an ATC exclusively (ATC Pro now).

-Brian in SLC

[rcwild]

The original notice, with rack recommendation, was a knee-jerk reaction by a BlueWater employee. To date, BlueWater has replaced three ropes due to sheath slippage; both were the original Canyon Pro, not DS. The problems occurred with big guys rappelling fast using ATCs.

I'm a big guy and use Canyon Pro and Canyon Pro DS on a regular basis with ATC Guide, Reverso 3, Huit, Pirana, Double Eight and Totem. Only sheath slippage I've seen was about two inches.

Use a rack for canyoneering? That had to have come from a damn caver. :haha:

[ratagonia]

From an engineering stand point I have a hard time believing this is true. The rope doesn't know what type of rappel device you are using. And ATC doesn't bend or stretch the rope and more or less then any other rappel device.

From a marketing stand point this would be bad as it would severely restrict Bluewater rope sales since people are more likely to switch ropes over rappel device.

Or I could be clueless....

I've rapped on hundreds of Bluewater ropes and I use an ATC XP most of the time. I've never had a problem.

:cool2:

Industrial Power Engineering, I believe is your specialty, Shane?

Most "ATC-Type" devices sharply bend the rope over a rounded edge to achieve friction. The high-friction mode of the ATC-XP presses the rope against a short section of side-wall, so the mechanism is different, and the reaction from the rope is different. It tends to push the sheath down the core, more, and does encourage sheath slippage.

What to do? Don't use the high-friction side of the ATC-XP unless you need to.

Sheaths slip on ropes. When you rappel, you interact with the sheath and do your best to pull it down the core. Different ropes slip different amounts. I've found the Canyon Pro to slip quite a bit, but it is not really a problem. Re-finish the end of the rope after the first couple of trips. Rappel both ways on the rope. Sheath slippage is not really a "problem".

It can be annoying, however, especially using the ATC-XP in wet conditions. The system becomes a stick-slip system and induces vibrations as you rappel. Some people are annoyed by this, others consider it novel and interesting.

Every once in a while, a rope sheath will slip enough to be a "true annoyance", with a bubble of sheath accumulating below the rap device and eventually blocking further progress down the rope. Had this problem with those awful Beal Trail Lines I unfortunately promoted for a brief period - the new batch came in with VERY LOOSE sheaths and were terrible. One reason I've preferred tightly woven ropes ever since.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

"CANYONEERING ROPES
Canyoneering Ropes

We recommend careful use of belay devices with canyoneering ropes. If used as descenders, these belay devices can damage sheath strands at the sharp radius at the bottom of the device. These belay devices can cause elongation of the fiber which leads to sheath slippage."


So if I'm reading this correctly what it really says is.... "we are aware of a problem you might encounter". I don't see ATC mentioned by name, it says belay device. Is this a problem with other types?


Use a rack for canyoneering? That had to have come from a damn caver. :haha:

:lol8:


Industrial Power Engineering, I believe is your specialty, Shane?

Industrial Engineering period... about 1/3 of my work is in power, 1/3 mining, 1/3 other.... I have done all types of stuff, big and small. But yes.... ropes are way outside my realm knowledge. I was just using the standard engineering practice of "what does the rope think is happening?"

As a marketing deal this is not good for Bluewater.... most canyoneers I know will give up a brand of rope long before they give up their beloved rappel device.

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

As a marketing deal this is not good for Bluewater.... most canyoneers I know will give up a brand of rope long before they give up their beloved rappel device.

:popcorn:

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Pitt Stop.......................

[Brian in SLC]

Down under canyoneer? Check.

Weird rappel device? Check.

http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/1319.jpg

[Bo_Beck]

[u]
Industrial Power Engineering, I believe is your specialty, Shane?

Every once in a while, a rope sheath will slip enough to be a "true annoyance", with a bubble of sheath accumulating below the rap device and eventually blocking further progress down the rope. Had this problem with those awful Beal Trail Lines I unfortunately promoted for a brief period - the new batch came in with VERY LOOSE sheaths and were terrible. One reason I've preferred tightly woven ropes ever since.

Tom :moses:

Try it on a tandem prusik belay sometime! You talk about annoyance.....hmmmmmmm?!

I have always had a stick-go-stick-go-stick eeeeeee problem on BW 9mm rope. I know because I sold a mile or so to ZNP Backcountry (I am a Bluewater dealer and love most of their products). The heavier folks never complained, but I, at 150# find it VERY annoying! Over the years I have found the Mammut 8mm very soft yet stiff, the PMI Maxwear 8mm very smooth yet stiff, the 8mm BW Canyon Pro very soft yet soft, but to date I've found that the Imlay Canyon 8mm rope to be the finest canyon rope available. Soft ride, but very stiff. Perfect for canyons! No oozing into constrictions on the pull (damn I hate ascending to clear a rope!). Can't wait to try the new 8.3! More durable yet! Hope the pique is just as tight?!

BTW- I have used my Mini HB Rack in several canyons.........Hands free.....good feeling. I hate caving! Well sort of? Did Pandoras Box 2 weekends ago and It sure felt like a cave!

[price1869]

Yup ...

Just took back a spool of BW Canyon DS 8mm because of major problems with sheath slippage. Only used 200' for one canyon. The sheath was majorly bunched on the one end. Extremely stretched on the other. We were very disappointed since we've been using BW ropes for canyoneering and climbing for 5+ years now w/out any problems.

Not sure, but We may have been the straw that broke the camel's back and caused them to issue this warning/statement. I was told that BW will no longer warranty problems caused by using ATCs.

Interesting ... yes.

[Cirrus2000]

I haven't read this thread yet, but the title just made me so angry! As an air traffic controller, I consider myself part of the solution, not part of the problem! OK, now I'm going to go back and read the whole thread...


Edit: never mind.

[Strieby]

Good to know that this is occuring with the canyon pro line also. I based my question for this thread on info I received from a BW sales rep who said that this was only a problem on the 9.2's and the 9mm canyonline but that the dyneema core in the 8's didn't do it (at least not enough on an ATC to be a problem.) Thanks for the info.

[rcwild]

Good to know that this is occuring with the canyon pro line also. I based my question for this thread on info I received from a BW sales rep who said that this was only a problem on the 9.2's and the 9mm canyonline but that the dyneema core in the 8's didn't do it (at least not enough on an ATC to be a problem.) Thanks for the info.

You received some bogus information. There have been no problems with the 9.2 and 9mm ropes.

[price1869]

Good to know that this is occuring with the canyon pro line also. I based my question for this thread on info I received from a BW sales rep who said that this was only a problem on the 9.2's and the 9mm canyonline but that the dyneema core in the 8's didn't do it (at least not enough on an ATC to be a problem.) Thanks for the info.

You received some bogus information. There have been no problems with the 9.2 and 9mm ropes.

I've used up 800+ feet of 9.2 Canyoneer and never had a problem with it. It's wonderful rope.