Ascending a Rope?

[moab mark]

I am just winging this so maybe I am nuts, have been before but. By having a setup with an ascender on the rope, arms length sling from ascender to harness. Rope coming down going through a grigri attached to harness and then up to a pulley on the ascender and then down to the ground. Ok if that made sense, then could someone on the ground pull down on the rope and raise the climber, with the climber only having to move the ascender up when the grigri hits the pulley? The ascender would get harder to move up as you went due to the weight of the rope going through the pulley but would it work? With the mechanical advantage how slow would it be.

My reasoning is if you had to ascend a rope with kids for an example could you run them up the rope? If yes could you tie a pull cord to the ascender and have someone on top help move the ascender up each time if the kid could not do it?

Probably nuts? Or is there some other way to ascend a kid up a rope?

Mark

[SLCmntjunkie]

If I'm seeing this right, you couldn't raise the ascender once weight is on the pulley.

You could add a second ascender, one to secure the person on the rope and the second as a change of direction with the pulley. But you would only get a 2:1 mechanical advantage and about 2ft each time you need to reset you're system, even less if it was a kid with short arms. It doesn't sound very efficient, you'd be better off setting up a a haul system from the top.

[moab mark]

The ascender would be able to go up because the grigri would be grabbing the rope. So when you moved the ascender the pulley would pull up slack rope. and let you move it up the rope. Here is the website I saw it on.
would of posted site first time but had lost it.

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Jug.htm

[SLCmntjunkie]

OK, I see. Still doesn't sound very efficient as a haul system.

[denaliguide]

sounds woefully inefficent. would be far easier for someone on top to set up a z-pulley and just haul them up. you are going to need someone on top anyway when the kids get there. for ideas on how to set up the haul system find a book on either big wall techniques or glacier travel techniques. both areas require knowledge of setting up haul systems.

or just teach them how to jug.

[ratagonia]

The ascender would be able to go up because the grigri would be grabbing the rope. So when you moved the ascender the pulley would pull up slack rope. and let you move it up the rope. Here is the website I saw it on.
would of posted site first time but had lost it.

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Jug.htm

An interesting approach. The key element here is the foot loop.

The sequence for this setup is:

A. Move ascender up to full extension of arm.

B. Standup in the foot loop attached to the ascender while pulling rope through the pulley (which moves the gri-gri (progress capture device) up the rope).

C. Lean back on the Gri Gri.

D. Repeat Ad Nauseum.

If you want to pull the kids up the cliff, you could set up a 2:1 as follows:

1. Anchor top of rope at the top.

2. Rope goes down to the ground to a pulley. Clip the Kid into the pulley.

3. Rope goes back up to the top, to a pulley.

4. Then back down to the ground.

5. you pull on the rope, you have a 2:1 advantage and can pull the kid up the cliff. You might want a belay on there. Can use a progress capture device somewhere in the system (but all positions have some disadvantage, depending).

6. The kid can help by pulling up on the fixed strand.

It might be more elegant to set up a fixed strand, then have a separate belay rope. The kid can then kinda climb the rope, maybe with some help from Dad.

Tom

[rcwild]

Mark's approach might not be very efficient, but it is some advantages over Tom's 2:1 and gets the kids involved with their own ascending.

For Mark's solution ...

1. Rope required is height of ascent + enough extra rope to create the Z (about four extra feet).

2. Entire setup can be rigged on the ground.

Tom's solution requires rope length that is height of ascent X 3 and requires someone at the top to set rope through upper pulley and send rope back down if process is to be repeated for more people.

[moab mark]

[quote="rcwild"]Mark's approach might not be very efficient, but it is some advantages over Tom's 2:1 and gets the kids involved with their own ascending.

For Mark's solution ...

1. Rope required is height of ascent + enough extra rope to create the Z (about four extra feet).

2. Entire setup can be rigged on the ground.

The only time I have seen a z rig used I would not consider it very efficient. But maybe these guys didn't know what they were doing. But how do you rig a z rig on the ground with only only ascending rope?

[moab mark]

ok misunderstood your answer i thought you meant doing it some other way then my original post.

[oldno7]

Mark
Theres lots of ways to overcome having a kid(scout in your case) stuck on a rope with you "below" him. The most important point is to make sure one of your most experienced people always goes down last. That person should be proficient in haul systems, lowers, pick-offs etc. As long as that guy, we'll call him LAMAR stays up top with enough extra rope for a "just in case" event, you have lots of options. Trying to perform a rescue from below is definately do-able, albeit considerably more complex.
I've done several trips with scout's and you definately need good leaders both at the bottom and top to assist the boys. Once again--the guy up top needs to have lot's of skills. Never let a scout go last.

[moab mark]

Was just explaining it to my 8 year old and he's game. In a couple of weeks when back in moab ill give it a try.

[moab mark]

No this is not a rescue this is if you have all rappeled down a rope and then decide you want to go back up. Have one adult go up and then send kids. Yes there are probably lots of better ways but i saw that setup online and thought couldn't you just pull down on the rope and with them moving up the ascender up up they would go. As rich stated this lets the dad do most of the work but the kid thinks he is helping. :nod:

[oldno7]

No this is not a rescue this is if you have all rappeled down a rope and then decide you want to go back up. Have one adult go up and then send kids. Yes there are probably lots of better ways but i saw that setup online and thought couldn't you just pull down on the rope and with them moving up the ascender up up they would go. As rich stated this lets the dad do most of the work but the kid thinks he is helping. :nod:

Your having to use a lot of gear that likely wouldn't be carried in a canyon situation. Why not just teach the boys the right way to ascend so they have the skill for later down the road. I've seen 10-12 year old boys that could out jug most guys, and have a great time doing it.
for safety the guy up top could put them on a belay, you'll be suprised how little help these guys will need

[moab mark]

Do not disagree as I stated before just saw the site and thought what if.

[moab mark]

Giving this some more thought. If the jugger is a heavy guy and cannot jug the rope on his own wouldn't him standing up in the foot loop along with a guy pulling on the rope help him quite a bit?

[oldno7]

Giving this some more thought. If the jugger is a heavy guy and cannot jug the rope on his own wouldn't him standing up in the foot loop along with a guy pulling on the rope help him quite a bit?

Absolutely--good point
You can also use a ropeman instead of a Gri-Gri, or a Tib-loc in self minding mode/

[Brian in SLC]

Giving this some more thought. If the jugger is a heavy guy and cannot jug the rope on his own wouldn't him standing up in the foot loop along with a guy pulling on the rope help him quite a bit?

Absolutely--good point
You can also use a ropeman instead of a Gri-Gri, or a Tib-loc in self minding mode/

I jug with a Gri Gri all the time (its my standard "big wall" seconding technique).

There's a huge advantage with the Gri Gri as the bottom capture type device in that you can convert to rappel with it very, very easily.

If the "heavy guy" can stand up, he can certainly pull the rope through a pulley and wouldn't really need any assist from below.

I've also replaced a Gri Gri with a Petzl Mini Traxion for jugging too. Its so efficient, with a pulley on top (at the upper ascender) and bottom, that I could ascend a flat wall without the foot loops by just pulling myself along with the "bottom" of the rope coming down from the upper pulley. Crazy.

Can't imagine the risk, and, you'd want to have a back up, but, my bet is you could haul someone from the ground, up to an anchor, by using a 3:1 Yosemite style haul (aka "Spanish Rig") which would require two pulleys and two ascenders. You could add a pulley at the top and rig a more standard 3:1 too.

Crevasse rescue technique shows how to rig a "Z by C" haul, which is 6 to one, but, not sure how this would work over a really long distance.

Bo should chime in. He's the friggin' in the riggin' master.

I dunno. With ropes going over edges and all that mechanical hardware in play, you don't need much to go wrong to have it go "seriously" wrong.

Easiest would be to just use a "drop loop" and send the guy a loop of rope with a pulley on it, and have the horse power at the top just pull them up off that. Good anchoring skills a must! And, a completely separate belay for the dead weight person would be prudent.

I've practised a partner haul on a climb with a Tibloc. Never again (ruined my rope).

Interesting...

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

No this is not a rescue this is if you have all rappeled down a rope and then decide you want to go back up. Have one adult go up and then send kids. Yes there are probably lots of better ways but i saw that setup online and thought couldn't you just pull down on the rope and with them moving up the ascender up up they would go. As rich stated this lets the dad do most of the work but the kid thinks he is helping. :nod:

I guess I miss-understood your original question - which I thought was - "If I just pull down on the rope, doesn't the kid get to the top?". The answer to that is NO, the kid has to move the ascender up every stroke, which you had apparently already figured out.

This system Can work, or it can be a problem. Depends upon the geometry somewhat.

I've tried the pulley redirect off the upper jug, and was unimpressed. Hard to explain fully, but my conclusion was adding more complexity adds more friction and more confusion.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Giving this some more thought. If the jugger is a heavy guy and cannot jug the rope on his own wouldn't him standing up in the foot loop along with a guy pulling on the rope help him quite a bit?

Absolutely--good point
You can also use a ropeman instead of a Gri-Gri, or a Tib-loc in self minding mode/

YES.

It is a coordination problem to stand up and pull the rope through the Gri-gri. I have watched Ram try this many, many times, and it is apparently a DIFFICULT coordination problem. So having the heavy guy's only task to be to stand up (while someone on the ground snugs up the GriGri) could be a good strategy. Adding a second foot loop to get both feet in there could be helpful too.

A Tibloc or a Ropeman requires some fiddling to keep it working. If you have a Gri-gri, it would be a better tool for this. Could also use a Basic, or a handled Ascender, but it requires a low-biner redirect and might end up being fiddly also.

Tom :moses:

[rcwild]

A Tibloc or a Ropeman requires some fiddling to keep it working.

Tibloc requires fiddling. Ropeman doesn't.


If you have a Gri-gri, it would be a better tool for this. Could also use a Basic, or a handled Ascender, but it requires a low-biner redirect and might end up being fiddly also.

GriGri, Ropeman, Mini Traxion are all good tools for the harness position.

Basic or handled ascender in the harness position?

[ratagonia]

Basic or handled ascender in the harness position?

Can be done. Not elegant. Requires a re-direct biner at the harness, to keep the rope running straight through the cam.

T :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

It is a coordination problem to stand up and pull the rope through the Gri-gri. I have watched Ram try this many, many times, and it is apparently a DIFFICULT coordination problem. So having the heavy guy's only task to be to stand up (while someone on the ground snugs up the GriGri) could be a good strategy. Adding a second foot loop to get both feet in there could be helpful too.:

No way. If you got the rope coming out of the gri gri, and redirected thru a pulley on the top ascender, its takes practically NO coordination to pull down on a strand of loose rope while you're standing up in a stirrup. Its one motion, stand, pull slack out. Easy easy easy. Which is why this Gri Gri jugging method is so handy. Its very intuative and requires next to no coordination. Geez, maybe that's why I use it...

He's either really uncoordinated, or, you didn't redirect up through the pulley. Pulling up out of the gri gri is a tad more awkward, to be sure. I "jug" sans upper ascender on low angle slabs with my Gri Gri this way. Works until it doesn't, then my weight is on the rope at my waist. No biggie.


Could also use a Basic, or a handled Ascender, but it requires a low-biner redirect and might end up being fiddly also.

As a capture at your waist? No friggin' way. Have you tried this?

-Brian in SLC

[moab mark]

Brain,
So back to my original question. With a kid moving the ascender up the rope and maybe a foot loop to make him think he is really helping. Would pulling down on the rope take them up say 60' in minutes hours or days. :ne_nau:

My concept on the heavy guy was yea most of them start of strong but halfway up the fuel runs out. So being able to pull down might help them get to the top. From my experience the problem with a pulley at the top is most of the canyoneering anchors are not on the edge so we have got that friction problem.

Thanks
Mark

[Brian in SLC]

So back to my original question. With a kid moving the ascender up the rope and maybe a foot loop to make him think he is really helping. Would pulling down on the rope take them up say 60' in minutes hours or days.

If your talking about using the Gri Gri method, then, I don't think I would really help at all.

Remember, the rope coming out of the Gri Gri is redirected back up to the upper descender. When you weight the foot stirrup on the upper ascender, your weight comes off your waist, at the same time, almost for balance, you pull down on the rope that comes out of the Gri Gri which is redirected to that top ascender through a pulley. Its a very natural motion. Folks pulling on the rope from below would probably more hinder this than help. Plus, the only distance would be the throw from the Gri Gri up to the pulley, which, for a kid, would be very short.


My concept on the heavy guy was yea most of them start of strong but halfway up the fuel runs out. So being able to pull down might help them get to the top. From my experience the problem with a pulley at the top is most of the canyoneering anchors are not on the edge so we have got that friction problem.

One concern I'd have with all this pulling down from below is, how good is that top anchor?

I don't think it helps a unfit/heavy guy to pull down ala the above explanation. They're just gonna be awhile...

Best to practise and get a system dialed. Folks loose a ton of efficiency by not having a system that's well oiled. They get tired mostly due to all the futzing around and not having slings the right length, or the throw on the redirects optimal, etc.

As far as edges are concerned, you maybe need to think about extending the anchor over the edge. Besides damaging your rope, you'll be putting really deep grooves in any soft rock too. Ugly. Rope and rock.

I'd suggest practising this in a fairly controlled environment. If anything went wrong, you'd want to know how to do a pick off and maybe a raise.

Could be a fairly high penalty for screwing up...

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

Brain,
So back to my original question. With a kid moving the ascender up the rope and maybe a foot loop to make him think he is really helping. Would pulling down on the rope take them up say 60' in minutes hours or days. :ne_nau:

My concept on the heavy guy was yea most of them start of strong but halfway up the fuel runs out. So being able to pull down might help them get to the top. From my experience the problem with a pulley at the top is most of the canyoneering anchors are not on the edge so we have got that friction problem.

Thanks
Mark

Actually, as shown, the kid is actually doing most of the work. Could be very fast, faster even than jugging, especially inexperienced jugging.

Brian and I obviously disagree on quite a few other issues. Hmmmm, what a surprise???? :ne_nau:

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

...
I'd suggest practising this in a fairly controlled environment. If anything went wrong, you'd want to know how to do a pick off and maybe a raise.

Could be a fairly high penalty for screwing up...

-Brian in SLC

Or, the easiest, fastest, simplest rescue technique: convert to a lower. You could make it easy and set the top anchor with a contingency anchor.

Tom

[trackrunner]

Is this the gri gri ascending technique you'll talking about

:popcorn:

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Jug.htm

edit: forgot the link

[Brian in SLC]

Brian and I obviously disagree on quite a few other issues. Hmmmm, what a surprise????

I guess the surprise is that you don't have a technical arguement of any kind.

Have you jugged with a gri gri?

Have you jugged with a handled ascender as a capture at the waist?

The surprise is that maybe you offered opinions on each without any experience.

Kind of like putting out a guidebook without knowing a listed route will go...ha ha.

A contingency anchor would be great for a lower. Good idear. But, I'm wondering if the scenario Mark has in mind requires folks get up the drop they are practising on? Choosing a good location would be the key take away here too, methinks.

We don't really disagree on THAT many things.

Another surprise is that you think we do...

Kinda funny that you and Shane get along here like ol' buds, even when you lob a bit of a bomb at him, but on the "other" forum, you're calling for him to be banned. Geez, next thing you know you'll be tossing his books in the garbage....ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

Brian and I obviously disagree on quite a few other issues. Hmmmm, what a surprise????

I guess the surprise is that you don't have a technical arguement of any kind.

A technical argument, past those already made, requires setting things up and taking pictures. It is raining here today, making it even more difficult to do such things.

Brian: Have you jugged with a gri gri?

Tom: I have not. I don't currently own a Gri-gri. I usually jug with a tibloc at my waist, without the redirect. I have tried the redirect, and found it difficult, mostly because it requires TWICE the stroke with the take-up arm, so it interrupts the rythym unless you short-stroke it.

Brian: Have you jugged with a handled ascender as a capture at the waist?

Tom: I 'think' I have used a Basic at the waist, with the double re-direct, but the memory is fuzzy (as many of mine are). There are obviously many problems with that setup. It would be very hard to get the distances right and get any kind of decent stroke, especially with the handled ascender. In other words - yes, you got me. Guilty as charged! Hang 'em high!!!

Brian: The surprise is that maybe you offered opinions on each without any experience.

Tom: I am glad you are surprised at this.

Brian: Kind of like putting out a guidebook without knowing a listed route will go...ha ha.

Tom: (side note: you don't mean ME printing a guidebook at that low standard, but are drawing the analogy to posting un-tested information here on Boggles).

Brian: A contingency anchor would be great for a lower. Good idear. But, I'm wondering if the scenario Mark has in mind requires folks get up the drop they are practising on? Choosing a good location would be the key take away here too, methinks.

Tom: A contingency anchor would allow for a quick lower if the kids get in trouble, then the adults could correct the problem and let them try again. Certainly one of the keys would be to not have the jugging be "hard", like going over a 90 degree edge, etc.

Brian: We don't really disagree on THAT many things.

Tom: True.

Brian: Another surprise is that you think we do...

Tom: I don't, but for the sake of conversation and entertaining the Bogglyites, those items are much more interesting...

Brian: Kinda funny that you and Shane get along here like ol' buds, even when you lob a bit of a bomb at him, but on the "other" forum, you're calling for him to be banned. Geez, next thing you know you'll be tossing his books in the garbage....ha ha.

Tom: Here, and in real life, Shane and ARE ol' buds. Over on the Light Side, Shane is a troll and a disruptor, and certainly a justified target for my feces-throwing. Besides, I didn't actually want him banned - my objective was to get people talking about what a jerk he was. Didn't work much.

By the by, I tossed those books in the fireplace, but that darned new coated paper, doesn't burn so well, leaves a LOT of ash.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

I don't currently own a Gri-gri. I usually jug with a tibloc at my waist, without the redirect. I have tried the redirect, and found it difficult, mostly because it requires TWICE the stroke with the take-up arm, so it interrupts the rythym unless you short-stroke it.

Its funny, I know folks who use the Gri Gri jugging method and refuse to redirect too.

Its all what works for you, methinks. I guess over the course of a long day (or in anticipation of a long day) my triceps stays much more perky than the bicep in terms of pulling the rope down, versus up. More power, more endurance. Some tendonitis involved there too...

I still really dislike those tiblocs, but, to each his own. I usually hope that folks that use them also provide their rope too.

One piece of gear that'd I'd hope was in the wings out there would be a self capturing pulley, with a release. Think gri gri with the cam replaced by a pulley wheel. A large enough pulley to actually get some efficiency too. That would be MONEY.

I've got an USHBA self ratching pulley with a release, but, its huge. And their self ratcheting pulley without the release is light, but, I'm not sure I'd trust as "man rated".

Ahhh...what do I know....

What, one day of canyoning in the US last year? I cruise these canyon forums less and less every year...

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[moab mark]

Brian wrote:
I've also replaced a Gri Gri with a Petzl Mini Traxion for jugging too. Its so efficient, with a pulley on top (at the upper ascender) and bottom, that I could ascend a flat wall without the foot loops by just pulling myself along with the "bottom" of the rope coming down from the upper pulley. Crazy.

Are you using two pulleys? One at ascender and one at waist? :ne_nau: How does that work? I get the no foot loops but 2 pulleys.


Oh and Tom the beer story........ :roflol: Hey could you also get the lighter side to get a new site that is user friendly. That thing bites. :frustrated:

Anyone want to donate a gri gri? Have a ropeman but need a cool new toy. $100 seems a little steep.

Mark

[Brian in SLC]

Are you using two pulleys? One at ascender and one at waist? How does that work? I get the no foot loops but 2 pulleys.

Kinda like a block and tackle. 2:1? Seems like. Surprised me. Woulda been worked to do the whole ascent that way, but, was pretty neat to find I could raise myself without a food stirrup.


Oh and Tom the beer story........ :roflol: Hey could you also get the lighter side to get a new site that is user friendly. That thing bites.

Hilarious. Hook, line and sinker.

Really the only thing that's been worth readin' there. Of course, I don't follow most of the threads. ZZZZZzzzzz.

For cheap gri gri's, try this item number on ebay: 360143553261. Local to SLC too.

Mine's pretty well worn, but, they seem to last and last.

-Brian in SLC

[trackrunner]

Sorry messed up the link the first time. Is this the gri gri ascending technique you'll talking about

:popcorn:

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Jug.htm

[ratagonia]

Are you using two pulleys? One at ascender and one at waist? How does that work? I get the no foot loops but 2 pulleys.

Kinda like a block and tackle. 2:1? Seems like. Surprised me. Woulda been worked to do the whole ascent that way, but, was pretty neat to find I could raise myself without a food stirrup.


2:1 if pulled from below.

3:1 if pulled by the person that is the weight. So using the redirect makes it more efficient when pulled as you jug.

Tom