HBO Apologizes for

[James_B_Wads2000]

New York Times Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/arts/television/12arts-HBOAPOLOGIZE_BRF.html?ref=arts)

[quote]March 12, 2009
ARTS, BRIEFLY

[size=6]HBO Apologizes for

[KapitanSparrow]

I am watching the 2nd season right now :haha: Cool show.

[Iceaxe]

Big Loves a good show.... So far Big Love has been pretty honest with what I know as facts... I'm curious to see how this temple thing goes. I think the LDS church is mostly upset that someone is going to show the secret handshake on tv.

I used to have a polygamist with 3 wives and a herd of children that worked for me. The guy was an employee for 10 years and we spent a lot of time talking about the actual logistics of having three wives and I have to say the show does a good job of portraying how complicated it is. The show pretty much parallels exactly what he told me.

It's funny but I also know one of the people that the show is loosely based on. The Joey Hendrickson character is loosely based on ex Dallas Cowboys receiver Golden Richards. I was friends with Golden's little brother the year Golden caught a touchdown in the Superbowl, it was a real big deal. Same thing when Golden hocked his Superbowl ring for drugs, same thing you hear about Joey in one of the first episodes.

:popcorn:

[Ih8grvty]

It does not matter what movie I see him in, all I can think of is Chet from weird science.
IF people here do not know that movie...then maybe my kids are right and I am old.

[Iceaxe]

Kelly Lebrock was every young man's dream in 1985.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_j8dEXcfxbOA/R47IrkIaGZI/AAAAAAAABys/eJbLaEh8iC8/s320/Kelly+Lebrock+weird+science+2.jpg

[Don]

We're sorry you're sensitive about this. We're still going to broadcast the show, but we are sorry you're offended.

:haha:

[Deathcricket]

Big Loves a good show.... So far Big Love has been pretty honest with what I know as facts... I'm curious to see how this temple thing goes. I think the LDS church is mostly upset that someone is going to show the secret handshake on tv.

I used to have a polygamist with 3 wives and a herd of children that worked for me. The guy was an employee for 10 years and we spent a lot of time talking about the actual logistics of having three wives and I have to say the show does a good job of portraying how complicated it is. The show pretty much parallels exactly what he told me.

:popcorn:

Quoted for complete agreement. I think the show is very respectful and has actually broadened my perspective on the subject. The scene they are talking about was actually very emotional and opened my eyes as to why you would "baptise the dead". I find it fascinating how they struggle with jealousy, time schedules, never ending children, etc. It's almost like the wifes have more troubles with each other than their husband too. Which actually makes sense to me. Bill Paxton's char really seems to be a man of god and tries to do the right thing all the time. He's not perfect of course, but I think they have been very respectful in their approach to such a controversial subject matter.

One of my good friends is a former plig. I've been asking him to watch the show and give me his interpretation but he's waiting for the complete torrent. He likes to watch entire series at once.

[James_B_Wads2000]

It does not matter what movie I see him in, all I can think of is Chet from weird science.
IF people here do not know that movie...then maybe my kids are right and I am old.
:roflol:

That

[Ih8grvty]

first off, the movie...Terminator. second off why would Kelly LeBrock be used in the past tense when speaking of fantasy?

So...What would you little maniacs like to do first?

My all time favorite scene int hat movie, that still makes me roll around holding my stomach laughing...
Wyatt on the toilet, Gary in the bathroom with him, the two girls knock on the door...

Damn! I searched, but could find no video on youtube or any place else that had the scene I was looking for!
I did find this though, and it only makes it harder (pun intended) to ask how Kelly could be paste tense?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meVirQLBZSk

and best yet!
the scene I so love....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2a-CJ0Vhi4

actual scene at 5:12


EDIT
I made a mistake, I looked up present day Kelly....she is a was.

[Scott Card]

I recognize by commenting I am probably adding to this "controversy". However, I feel it important to be as open as I can since so many think of Mormons as a closed community or a cult (and HBO is certainly helping to portray "Mormons" as such it would appear)

Let me be VERY clear. Mormons do not practice polygamy. Period, end of story.

If a bunch of people are practicing polygamy, they are something else but THEY ARE NOT a Mormons, or members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What big love is going to portray is a Mormon religious ceremony. The reason why it is offensive to Mormons is because the temple ceremonies are deeply significant and represent some of the core doctrines of what we believe. Shane, as entertaining as you sometimes are, I am tempted to say your comment about a "secret handshake" is moronic, uneducated and insensitive but I won't because that would lack charity. It has nothing to do with that. There is a night and day distinction between that which I hold sacred and that which I hold secret. There is no gray area. My client's confidential admissions are secret. They will go with me to the grave. My religious vows and experiences are sacred. I will not share those experiences that I hold deeply significant on the most profound human and spiritual levels to anyone and particularly here on the internet without proper understanding or relationship. Let me give a secular example. There are rating systems on movies and video games for the reason that different ages (maturity) can handle different subject matter. I likewise believe that unless I can trust a person with my most personal feelings and beliefs, I have little incentive to share. For those who have read the bible, it is the concept of casting your pearls.

This show (and correct me if I am wrong) is about polygamy and its lifestyle. The religious ceremony about to be portrayed appears to be a Mormon thing. Again, Mormons are not practicing polygamy. HBO is mixing up a church with a practice that was discontinued over a century ago, that is more than 100 years ago for those playing along. If seeing the temple clothing is so cool to anyone, I would suggest that you go to a Mormon funeral of someone who has lived according to the beliefs and gone through the temple. Go to the viewing and there you can see what the big deal is about. Not much of a fashion statement really. If you want to really understand the "endowment" ceremony in the temple, join the church, get some background, live the teachings and then enter the temple. Then you will have the "context and understanding" the LDS Church speaks of in it's statement. If you want to see the inside of a temple, let me know and I will personally go with you through the Draper Temple and I would be happy to answer any question I can. That is an open invite to anyone. If you can't make it before Saturday, don't worry, another temple will be open to the public in a few months on the West side of the SLC valley.

Finally, just because the show says they will be sensitive means little to those who hold these things sacred. So please understand why we Mormons are not terribly thrilled with Hollywood in conjunction with an ex Mormon consultant portraying sacred ordinances. For them it is about money and entertainment, plain and simple.

Finally number 2, learning about Mormonism from HBO is akin to learning medicine from a witch doctor. :roll:

[devo_stevo]

Well said Scott. Thanks for that.

I have to agree that this is all about publicity and making money for them. They have no loyalty to the LDS church or any of it's members. That's why the apology that they issued is empty and meaningless. Just as Don pointed out.

[DiscGo]

Well said Scott. Thanks for that.


x2 :2thumbs:


When the show first started HBO assured the LDS church that they would make it clear that the polygamists characters of this show were not Mormons, but now are trying to use something very personal and sacred to Mormons as a ratings booster.

That being said, I do give the credit for at least apologizing and not using legal jargon to express regret over misinterpretations, and yada yada yada.

[asdf]

Do you think that the polygamists are also offended when they are called Mormons or are they just trying to ride on the coat tails of the LDS Chruch?

[Sombeech]

I pledge not to watch this show

...unless all 3 of the wives get nude.

[Jaxx]

Great post Scott.

I have a feeling HBO could care less about offending Mormons. They need to read the latest porn polls. If they are buying subscriptions online they probably bought HBO. Of course we are not a very big fish in the scheme of things.

Lets go to HBO headquarters and start breaking stuff down. And writing angry messages on their building.

Taking bets on how long this will last out of the politico section. 2 more posts is my bet.

[Jaxx]

Do you think that the polygamists are also offended when they are called Mormons or are they just trying to ride on the coat tails of the LDS Chruch?

Who would want to be associated with Mormons. Seems like that would only hurt their case.

[Don]

Scott,
The scene of the show that portrays the temple ceremony involves a main character who is a Mormon who is at the temple with family and who is contemplating leaving the mainstream Mormon church for a fundamentalist/polygamist life. She is sad to leave the temple ceremony and her extended (disapproving Mormon) family behind due to this choice.
The show has always kept the polygamist characters and the Mormon characters separate. The polygamists hiding their lifestyle from their judgmental Mormon neighbors is a regular plot element.
I don't think anyone watching this show will come to the conclusion that mainstream Mormons are polygamists.

[ilanimaka]

Thanks, Scott. I couldn't have said it better myself. :2thumbs:

It's unfortunate that "entertainment" has sunk to such low standards. :eek2:

[Sombeech]

The most violent protest you'll ever see from the LDS Church is a bunch of chain emails going from grandma to niece.

Occasionally one psycho will go on a rant and maybe even carry a sign, but you really have to acknowledge the maturity that LDS members act when "in protest".

Sure, somebody will call into a radio show or something and be all pissed off, but it turns out they aren't even an active Mormon.

The reality is, I am an active Mormon, I'm the Gospel Doctrine teacher in the ward, and I really don't care what HBO does. It's not up to us to decide who "goes to hell", contrary to popular belief.

Now, if you want to discuss the one time that a 12 year old said you were going to hell for smoking a cigarrette, maybe I can't expect that same maturity.

[James_B_Wads2000]

(and HBO is certainly helping to portray "Mormons" as such it would appear)

I have one question. Have you ever watched the show?



James

[Last Child]

I quite like this show. Hey let

[KapitanSparrow]

I'm with Don. There is a clear distinction between polygamists and rightious LDS in that show. I've seen two seasons and not once did I feel that the show was insulting or offensive. And I'm quite sensitive to that stuff :haha:

[Scott Card]

(and HBO is certainly helping to portray "Mormons" as such it would appear)

I have one question. Have you ever watched the show?



JamesNope, isn't it obvious? I don't even have HBO. But I do have The Mountain... :haha:

[DiscGo]

Have you ever watched the show?

I watched about 3 minutes of the show once and people were praying. I figured I get enough of that at church and switched on The Office :).

[Scott Card]

I'm with Don. There is a clear distinction between polygamists and rightious LDS in that show. I've seen two seasons and not once did I feel that the show was insulting or offensive. And I'm quite sensitive to that stuff :haha:Sensitive??? :lol8: I am glad they make the distinction. I can't bash the show per se but I am taking issue with the subject matter.

[KapitanSparrow]

Have you ever watched the show?

I watched about 3 minutes of the show once and people were praying. I figured I get enough of that at church and switched on The Office :).

:haha:

[Don]

Have you ever watched the show?

I watched about 3 minutes of the show once and people were praying. I figured I get enough of that at church and switched on The Office :).

:roflol: Nice.

[Scott Card]

Watch this little clip and you can see and maybe feel a little about how we feel about temple worship.

http://www.youtube.com/mormonmessages :2thumbs:

[James_B_Wads2000]

(and HBO is certainly helping to portray "Mormons" as such it would appear)

I have one question. Have you ever watched the show?

Nope, isn't it obvious?

It was pretty obvious that you hadn

[James_B_Wads2000]

:blahblah:

[Iceaxe]

Let me be VERY clear. Mormons do not practice polygamy. Period, end of story.

If a bunch of people are practicing polygamy, they are something else but THEY ARE NOT a Mormons, or members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You would have to be a total idiot to confuse the LDS and the fundamentalist in the show Big Love.... they make the distinction very clear.

:blahblah:

[Don]

[quote=Scott Card] (and HBO is certainly helping to portray "Mormons" as such it would appear)

I have one question. Have you ever watched the show?

Nope, isn't it obvious?

It was pretty obvious that you hadn

[savanna3313]

I once had a polygamous "close encounter". I was working with a client who brought his brother along to look at houses with him one evening. The next time I took my client out, he mentioned to me that his brother rather liked me. I was flattered because he was good-looking, well spoken and funny. He asked me if it would be alright to give his brother my number and I said yes. I guess I should have asked, but my assumption was that the brother was single. :ne_nau: Well, little did I know at the time, but brother had just been given permission from wives 1 and 2 to go out and find #3. :eek2: I later found out that between the 2 wives, there were a total of 13 children. No wonder they wanted wife #3!!! Poor things were exhausted! :haha:

Needless to say, it was a "thanks, but no thanks" reply to a date. I've since heard that #3 was found and has been added to the group. I wish them ALL the best. :2thumbs:

[DiscGo]

Here is a response from the LDS Church about the holiness of the temple:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x_-TQivCx8&eurl=http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f 5e340aRCRD



The video is just over 3 minutes long, and it basically explains why temples are sacred to the LDS Church.


Here is a press statement by the LDS Church.
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/the-publicity-dilemma


I realize that those of you who aren't LDS probably don't understand why this matters to the Mormons but this line from the press statement is at the heart of it:

"Certainly Church members are offended when their most sacred practices are misrepresented or presented without context or understanding."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


[My response]

What you guys probably don't know is that the first time you go to the Temple as a Mormon it does seem a little weird (there are no animal sacrifices or anything, but it is just different than going to Church) but once you develop an understanding of the meaning and symbolize behind the temple ceremony, it does become a sacred and heavenly experience.


As non-mormons people are usually much more interested in it being a "little weird" and much less interested in the holiness of the temple. So HBO showing something parts of the temple ceremony on television (out of context making it most likely seem strange), only to boost their ratings is disrespectful towards Mormons because it is something that we hold so sacred. I doubt most of you who are interested in HBO showing this on TV, hold very little as "sacred" because I would think you understand that things that are sacred, should be treated differently.

[savanna3313]

Here is a response from the LDS Church about the holiness of the temple:


[My response]

What you guys probably don't know is that the first time you go to the Temple as a Mormon it does seem a little weird (there are no animal sacrifices or anything, but it is just different than going to Church) but once you develop an understanding of the meaning and symbolize behind the temple ceremony, it does become a sacred and heavenly experience.


As non-mormons people are usually much more interested in it being a "little weird" and much less interested in the holiness of the temple. So HBO showing something parts of the temple ceremony on television (out of context making it most likely seem strange), only to boost their ratings is disrespectful towards Mormons because it is something that we hold so sacred. I doubt most of you who are interested in HBO showing this on TV, hold very little as "sacred" because I would think you understand that things that are sacred, should be treated differently.

I have enjoyed the Big Love series, don't agree with all that is portrayed per sa, but feel that the writers do make it clear that the polygamy lifestyle is not condoned by the Church in any way. However, I agree that showing things that are sacred to the Church and its members should NOT be aired, just as anything else held sacred in any other religion should be publicly shared. I think it is overstepping boundaries that shouldn't be crossed. I was raised in the Mormon faith in Louisiana (believe it or not Discgo!) :nod: My parents were converted when I was around 3 yrs old and my family and I traveled to the SL temple when I was around 7 for my parents to marry in the temple and have us kids sealed to them. It was pretty tough growing up in a mainly Catholic area (we had fish sticks every Friday even in public schools!) I was literally the only Mormon kid in my grade each year until I reached high school. In addition, the majority of our relatives are all Baptist......and I don't have to tell any return missionary about the difficulty of discussing Mormon doctrine with "fundamentalist" Baptists! :haha: My family housed building missionaries for years (this is going way back....I don't think they have building missionaries any longer) and after I got into my business, I was known as "the place" for all the missionaries in town to come and cash all of the out of state checks that friends and families sent. :nod:

[greyhair biker]

I don't have a problem with HBO airing this show. I don't have HBO because I have kids - who dont need to be subjected to what the world deems appropriate for 'adult viewing'...so I don't have it in my house. Obviously, if they do what they want wherever they want , they just dont need to do it in my house.(my choice) I DO have a problem with anyone airing what people would consider 'sacred' in whatever faith they are part of. I would consider myself an active LDS member and I have always been open with people (read:not afraid) to talk to them about my faith. Call that a sure testimony of my beliefs if you will. I don't feel 'threatened' by questions that rise from people viewing this. I hold the temple ceremonies sacred. I won't be parading these things around because as an 'endowed' member I have made covenants NOT to. Those people who have not made the same commitments cannot possibly be held accountable for doing the same, but someone who has done so will be held accountable for doing so. Scot, youre comments are spot on. :2thumbs:

[Deuce]

I can understand those of the LDS faith being upset about supposed secrets or ceremony whatever it is they hold sacred being aired publicly on national television......

That said, being upset about those that cannot differentiate HBO polygamy and the the LDS faith/Mormon religion......well....:roll:




Confession is sacred, communion is sacred, the last rights are sacred...........there are many religious practices that are sacred, granted not secret, that are aired on national television daily......

[James_B_Wads2000]

HBO can show the temple ceremonies if they want, it is freedom of speech. Mormons can be upset and vocalize it. They can send out chain emails, or cancel their HBO. That is their right. What is scared to some is meaningless to others. You can

[DiscGo]

HBO can show the temple ceremonies if they want, it is freedom of speech. Mormons can be upset and vocalize it.

Yep.


They can send out chain emails, or cancel their HBO. That is their right.

I really doubt that too many Mormons have HBO, and those who do are probably not the types to cancel the channel over offensive material (because let's face it, most of what is on HBO is not really family friendly.



I hope that one day the official church position will be to embrace their history and not shy away from it.



I think this is one of those things like talking about someone's family. Inside the church Polygamy is discussed openly and the history of it is widely taught, but so many people still believe the Mormons to be a cult and think they still practice polygamy and that is why the LDS Church is quick to make that distinction.


So it is kind of like talking about your family in as much as I can say whatever bad thing I want about my brothers or my parents but if you speak ill of them we are going to have issues.

[Deathcricket]

Ok sorry for my earlier post. I thought the "baptisim for the dead" ceremony (from 2 weeks ago) was what the complaints were all about. It was this weeks episode and saw it last night.

I felt they were very respectful of the scene and the ceremony. I was actually kinda in awe with the secret handshake (pinky underneath), talking through the curtain, and 15 mins in the pleasure palace area. But I have to say they don't show Mormons in a positive light. Basically they kick one of the main chars out of the church because they discover she is practicing poly marriage. She's been able to hide it from them for quite some time. They take her name out of some book and cast her into darkness. Something also about her generations also being punished. They weren't mean (in fact very kind) and it seems like she expected it, but it was so hurtful to her I can't understand how anyone could do such a thing. They did it in an authoritive way I guess. I'm going to read up on "endowments" so I can understand better what they were even talking about.

I can totally understand both sides. It reminds me of the christians vrs gays threads that pop up so often. Passionate people on both sides, and really neither one wins. I just wish there was a little more understanding on both sides. But judging from Scott's response "Mormon's are not Plig's" (having not even seen the show) and the great need for mormons to separate themselves, I can understand how this would happen. I've always felt Mormons were the most tolerant of other people's beliefs and least judgmental. At least to a heathen like me. But then again, I've never asked to take part in secret church ceremonies, so I can understand how the line was crossed someplace by her. She's (the main character) clearly asking for a different level of understanding and perhaps acceptance. Which can not be granted of course.


I can't find the excommunication scene, but here is the very respectful mormon scene if you guys want to watch it and judge for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLPMvj-UxOI

Edit, found it. This is where they give her the boot.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1dTb1z04QQ

[Iceaxe]

OK.... I watched Big Love last night and now I know for sure the Mormon's are a cult and they all have multiple wives. :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

Actually.... speaking as an innocent Utah bystander without a dog in this fight.......

I thought the show really slammed the LDS church hard....

"The church is as corrupt as Roman Grant" was one quote that stuck out.... also they aluded that the LDS chruch would lie, steal and cheat to protect themselves without regard for outsiders.....

I was surprised that HBO attacked the chruch so hard, even in a fictional show.

:cool2:

[Last Child]

As one who has been through this ceremony many times back in the 80's I can attest as to the fairly accurate representation of portions of the endowment ceremony shown here. I am glad that they opted out of showing the whole symbolic slit your throat "I'd rather die" portion of the ceremony. Which, they alluded to in the show last night, is no longer part of the ceremony. I don't know though? However... when I experienced that for the first time... it was then and remains today to be the most spiritually disturbing thing I have ever experienced. It also was the beginning to and end for me. I am now somewhere out in "outer darkness" . :nod:

This show is definitely a very passive aggressive attack on Mormonism. Sometimes without the passive.

I think it was when Barb was talking with the Stake President at her love hearing about how she was a good person and believed in the poligamy doctrine as does the LDS church. I can't remember the exact quote but it went something like this...

... sometimes the truth is not important.

[DiscGo]

"Somethings that are true, are not very useful" That is not something that would be said by LDS leaders. Education is a very important issue to the LDS Faith and contrary to the world, Mormons do not turn away from the truth they seek after it.

[Deathcricket]

"Somethings that are true, are not very useful" That is not something that would be said by LDS leaders. Education is a very important issue to the LDS Faith and contrary to the world, Mormons do not turn away from the truth they seek after it.

Well I think you might have taken that out of context. Per the show they are discussing that there "might" be this letter floating around where the Mormon leaders believe that polygamy is ok/sanctioned, but they are caving into pressure from outside sources and outlawing it. She was involved in selling this letter to a "collector" and feels she is being punished for it. So its more a slam in that way I think. Like they actually know the truth but are intentionally hiding it. Still, your point is totally valid. But it's probably a worse slam that that single section is showing. Like Ice was saying, they seem to be hinting the upper levels are corrupt in your organization.

I always value your opinion BTW. Is that pretty much how it would go down? If the "elders" (probably wrong word) found out one of your congregation was living in sin, would they kick them out like that? Given of course she is unrepentant, and you saw how she feels that her lifestyle is valid.

[DiscGo]

They seem to be hinting the upper levels are corrupt in your organization.

What I find off about that is that I have heard from several people (including people on this site have made mention) how "the show is not about Mormons and even shows the Mormons being judgmental towards the Polygamists". I don't understand how a show can have multiple episodes making Mormons look bad, claims that the leaders of the church are corrupt, and display our most sacred ceremonies on the show without the show "even being about Mormons". It seems like the show makes Mormons look bad at every turn.



Is that pretty much how it would go down? If the "elders" (probably wrong word) found out one of your congregation was living in sin, would they kick them out like that? Given of course she is unrepentant, and you saw how she feels that her lifestyle is valid.

The show is close but it isn't how it goes down. I actually wrote a whole page but it was surely much more detailed than anyone here would care to read.


The basic logistics are the meeting consist of people that are there to judge your actions and are not there to be judgmental. It is kind of like a trial that some people there are there just to help you, but it is unlike a trial in that they are not meetings where you can use trickery to win your case.

[Deathcricket]

What I find off about that is that I have heard from several people (including people on this site have made mention) how "the show is not about Mormons and even shows the Mormons being judgmental towards the Polygamists". I don't understand how a show can have multiple episodes making Mormons look bad, claims that the leaders of the church are corrupt, and display our most sacred ceremonies on the show without the show "even being about Mormons". It seems like the show makes Mormons look bad at every turn.


I'm trying to recall in greater detail. But I don't think Mormon's have been in any of the other 10 episodes besides this one. Well I guess her mom is a Mormon but they never really went into detail about her before. It's been 100% pligs. Although they obviously will play a big part in the finale next week.

Edit: Thanks for the explanation on the trial. I honestly don't judge and find the subject fascinating. At first I'm kind of disturbed that someone would examine my "personal business" that closely. Almost too invasive (assuming I was in that position). But then the more I think about it, the bunch of friggin hypocrites (tolerated) in my church is pretty much the main reason I've left it disgusted. That and the faith based complete acceptance factor. IE: "Noah's ark had 2 of every species on it". Anyways I can appreciate holding people up to a standard and actually living by the vows they took. I approve.

:2thumbs:

[James_B_Wads2000]

I watched the epiosode last night... it was pretty good. :2thumbs:




James


people that are there to judge your actions and are not there to be judgmental.

... Wait, what? It is these kind of contradictions that makes Mormonism hard for me to understand. :eek7:

[DiscGo]

Thanks for the explanation on the trial. I honestly don't judge and find the subject fascinating. At first I'm kind of disturbed that someone would examine my "personal business" that closely. Almost too invasive (assuming I was in that position). But then the more I think about it, the bunch of friggin hypocrites (tolerated) in my church is pretty much the main reason I've left it disgusted. That and the faith based complete acceptance factor. IE: "Noah's ark had 2 of every species on it". Anyways I can appreciate holding people up to a standard and actually living by the vows they took. I approve.


The other part to understand is that the "trial" is optional. If you don't want to be a part of the church, or go to a "disciplinary counsel" there is nothing making you go. And so when people go to those meetings they really are usually not going to defend themselves but rather they go to try and make themselves right with the Lord. So it usually requires a fair amount of humility to go in the first place (Note: The meeting is by no means humiliating, but a certain amount of humility is required to attend).


Nobody in the room is "against" you and there are some people in the meeting that are there only to support you. My Dad has had to attend a lot of these meetings (for other people not himself :) ) and it is pretty much sad for everyone involved.

You may wonder why anyone would subject themselves to this, but the joy feeling right with God and having squared away your sins\past is a happiness that carries over to the rest of your life.

[DiscGo]

I watched the epiosode last night... it was pretty good. :2thumbs:

I have tried to view it online but it keeps being taken down from Youtube.





... Wait, what? It is these kind of contradictions that makes Mormonism hard for me to understand. :eek7:

I'm sure it James. Like so many of these "contradictions" as you call them, there is a simple explanation which you are either unable or unwilling to see.

"Judging" is a decision being passed by an informed person, "Judgmental" usually has a connotation of "how could a person do something like that" in a holier than thou sort of way.


I guess more than anything there is a fair amount of understanding that accompanies "judging" while being "judgmental" usually stems from a lack of empathy.

[Scott Card]

Thanks for the explanation on the trial. I honestly don't judge and find the subject fascinating. At first I'm kind of disturbed that someone would examine my "personal business" that closely. Almost too invasive (assuming I was in that position). But then the more I think about it, the bunch of friggin hypocrites (tolerated) in my church is pretty much the main reason I've left it disgusted. That and the faith based complete acceptance factor. IE: "Noah's ark had 2 of every species on it". Anyways I can appreciate holding people up to a standard and actually living by the vows they took. I approve.


The other part to understand is that the "trial" is optional. If you don't want to be a part of the church, or go to a "disciplinary counsel" there is nothing making you go. And so when people go to those meetings they really are usually not going to defend themselves but rather they go to try and make themselves right with the Lord. So it usually requires a fair amount of humility to go in the first place (Note: The meeting is by no means humiliating, but a certain amount of humility is required to attend).


Nobody in the room is "against" you and there are some people in the meeting that are there only to support you. My Dad has had to attend a lot of these meetings (for other people not himself :) ) and it is pretty much sad for everyone involved.

You may wonder why anyone would subject themselves to this, but the joy feeling right with God and having squared away your sins\past is a happiness that carries over to the rest of your life.
Good post DiscGo. I too have attended many of these "Disciplinary Councils". The LDS church tries very hard to work with people to live what we believe are the standards of God. There isn't one of us who is perfect or one of us who doesn't screw up occasionally if not often. However, if someone repeatedly falls below the standards or does something very serious, a counsel is held to try to assist the person to live the standards and get back on track. Sometimes, when the conduct is bad enough, the person is in fact excommunicated from the church. That is quite rare. Most of the time the person is counseled, patiently worked with, goals are set, bench marks are met and the person comes back into full acceptance with the church. It is really a remarkable process the watch. Great efforts are made to protect the interests of the person as well as the integrity and good name of the Church. Discgo is correct that no one involved is "against" the person who is the subject of the council. Also, the council is confidential. Not even my wife knows who was involved or what the outcome was of a Disciplinary Council that I attend. And by the way, when bench marks are met by a person who has received church discipline, a council is again held and I must say they are some of the most happy, joyful times that I have experienced in my church experience. The happiness and confidence that the person has when they feel right with God is incredible. The disciplinary council process is not anything like the Salem witch trials, in fact far, far from it. The purpose is to help the individual come unto Christ and live what Christ has taught. It is not about punishment although there is often a discipline or perceived punishment when the standards of the Chruch are not met. But even that is meant to help people change. Probably more information than you wanted. ....

[Scott Card]

I just watched the scene you posted, Deathcricket, about the Disciplinary Counsel. Might I just say a big ole YIKES! There was very little in that scene that is accurate either in attitude, feeling or procedure. Yes, it is likely that one who is openly practicing polygamy would in fact be excommunicated from the church but the way the church leaders are portrayed, the questions they asked and the procedures used are frankly laughable. Accurate? No. Fictional, yes. Although I must say that the shot of the outside of the church was pretty realistic. I would say there are not enough mini vans in the scene to be truly believable though. :haha:

[KapitanSparrow]

From what you guys are saying it is much easier to get excommunicated from LDS than from the Catholic Church. But to the point, I understand excommunicating someone from the church for the duration of their earthly life, but to extend it to afterlife and whole eternity? That's seems ridiculous to me. No matter what religion it is, no man has the power to decide what happens to us after we pass. That's playing God. Let's let God sort it out.

[Scott Card]

From what you guys are saying it is much easier to get excommunicated from LDS than from the Catholic Church. But to the point, I understand excommunicating someone from the church for the duration of their earthly life, but to extend it to afterlife and whole eternity? That's seems ridiculous to me. No matter what religion it is, no man has the power to decide what happens to us after we pass. That's playing God. Let's let God sort it out.I agree, we don't play God. We do our best to help people live by the teaching of the church and also protect the integrity of the Church. Thankfully God will fix any of our screw-ups. Excommunication is not a one and done procedure. People who are excommunicated can change from their behavior and come back into "full fellowship" and membership in the LDS church. My church truly believes in forgiveness. Christ preached a pretty high standard but also he taught us about forgiveness when we screw up and then try our best to fix our screw-ups. It would be a whole new thread and discussion as to the after life and what we believe will happen. But let me just share one concept in which I truly believe, and it is stated in three places in the Bible that I am aware of. That is that one day, because of Christ, "all tears will be dried". I believe that to mean that one day, because of Christ, we will have complete understanding of this earth life, it will all be made fair. Pain will be understood and taken away. A just and incredibly loving judge (Christ) will work it all out to our satisfaction or perhaps better stated, our understanding. And yes, rewards and punishments will be handed out according to our knowledge and what we did with that knowledge, our service to others and our kindness and attitude towards others. A judgment yes. But a perfect and fair judgment.

[KapitanSparrow]

...one day, because of Christ, "all tears will be dried". I believe that to mean that one day, because of Christ, we will have complete understanding of this earth life, it will all be made fair. Pain will be understood and taken away. A just and incredibly loving judge (Christ) will work it all out to our satisfaction or perhaps better stated, our understanding. And yes, rewards and punishments will be handed out according to our knowledge and what we did with that knowledge, our service to others and our kindness and attitude towards others. A judgment yes. But a perfect and fair judgment.

Then I have nothing to worry about :haha:

[Deathcricket]

I just watched the scene you posted, Deathcricket, about the Disciplinary Counsel. Might I just say a big ole YIKES! There was very little in that scene that is accurate either in attitude, feeling or procedure. Yes, it is likely that one who is openly practicing polygamy would in fact be excommunicated from the church but the way the church leaders are portrayed, the questions they asked and the procedures used are frankly laughable. Accurate? No. Fictional, yes. Although I must say that the shot of the outside of the church was pretty realistic. I would say there are not enough mini vans in the scene to be truly believable though. :haha:

Hmm, interesting. I have to say,,, and again this is coming from an "outsider" who knows nothing, that even though the show is portraying them in a negative light (corrupt leaders hiding the truth basically). I thought they still managed to show the leaders as caring, and considerate, kind people. They give her a chance to repent and come to the light. They offer solutions, they don't condemn. And only when she refuses to cooperate do they lower the "boom" and somewhat reluctantly. I know Mormons are probably pissed hollywood is trying to destroy your image. But some good will come of this I think. For instance, I had no idea that church leaders even had the compassion and caring to visit a person who is struggling and offer solutions in their life in such an active role.

And also when you compare this to any of the thousands of movies showing Catholics (as one example) in a negative light. I think it's somewhat obvious the authors have taken great pains to be somewhat sensitive to the issue and I think greatly respect the LDS church. Even if you had seen the earlier episodes of the FLDS prophet, it's clear the authors despise them with a passion and show then as completely corrupt. Pedofiles, murderers, controlling, life ruining, etc. They are definitely the true villians in this story. The strange thing though is the main char I totally sympathize with and respect. He used to be LDS then got the FLDS calling and still tries to be right with god. He frequently prays for guidance through his trails and I actually feel his pain. Then of course the 3 wife's struggle with jealously and raising so many kids. Anyways, my whole point is that I think anyone who watches this show is getting their eyes opened and perhaps they might be curious to find out the "truth" and do a little research on their own. Then people like you can tell them how it really is. But the desire to learn won't really be there if there isn't a curious nature to see if what they are seeing is completely true. I think most people understand Hollywood isn't telling them the clear picture. I'm probably not saying it correctly, so will shut up now.

[Scott Card]

Actually, I am not terribly offended unless they mock what I consider very sacred. Then, I only roll my eyes and grit my teeth. I may get a little preachy or churchy (as said in my best Nacho Libre voice). Generally, I appreciate the buzz, positive or negative. I know the LDS church is considered as weird and secretive and is frankly misunderstood. I look at the fear and anger that came to light when Mitt Romney was running for president. I know we Mormons have a serious PR problem that only we can fix. I also know that many won't listen or accept what we say but perhaps a little understanding can go a long way to help others not be fearful, hateful or ignert. :haha: (Sorry I couldn't resist the other thread theme)I also know that we Mormons can be more open, loving and charitable.... me included.

[Last Child]

"Somethings that are true, are not very useful" That is not something that would be said by LDS leaders. Education is a very important issue to the LDS Faith and contrary to the world, Mormons do not turn away from the truth they seek after it.

Yeah that is the quote I was referring to. I didn't bother watching the clip again since I watched the episode.

I took this statement as more of a way of saying that they basically have to excommunicate Barb because their hands are tied. Even though the LDS Church still believes in polygamy and that it will once again be practiced some day. Today they can not practice it because it is illegal. So the "truth of polygamy" is not important in this decision?

Now whether or not the LDS still teach that they still believe in polygamy and it's future restoration I do not know. But in the 80's and prior to, that was very much the case. This was taught to us in the MTC as what to say when the topic comes up during a discussion. I have heard rumor that now days they are teaching that only the higher ups in the church were to practice it because there was an excess of women who needed men? I don't know though. That would be a pretty ballsy statement because that is almost a 180, well more of about a 135 from what was taught and actually practiced in the past. Also I believe it is still taught that only men can be sealed to multiple partners by way of the temple marriage or sealing ceremony. Say like if your wife dies then the man can re temple marry another woman but the women can not. That may also have been changed.

I also took that statement as a passive aggressive stab at several aspects of the church. Mainly though trying to say that the truth doesn't matter but only the illusion of truth matters. Which is something some people feel is an accurate depiction of the LDS. Especially here in Zion.

As far as excommunication is concerned. It used to be very easy to get excommunicated from the LDS church. I can attest to that because I have been through the process. The leaders involved, I believe, try to be loving and helpful and try not judge you but some do. I had one of the "leaders" tell my mom about me being ex'd even after I was specifically told to the contrary. That was way out of line.

I don't think one can say whether or not this depiction of the excommunication process was accurate or not unless you have been through it. Also different leaders are going to act differently. They are only human. The excommunication process is not like a ritualized temple ceremony where it is exactly the same every time. There are guide lines to follow and each individual will interpret the guide line in his own manner along with his own personality. My bishop at the time was a little to interested in the "details" of my sexual encounters that lead to my demise. It was somewhat disturbing. The stake president on the other hand only wanted to know the basics. Two different people handling the same situation in totally different ways.

Now days though, from what I understand, the church leaders have been given different standards for excommunication. They were finding that the majority of those ex'd were not returning. My personal belief in that is that it has been changed so as to protect the reported #'s of church membership. #'s are very important to the LDS Church. While serving a mission in Oregon that is what was paramount. Get those baptisms. It didn't matter if the people really understood it or not. Just get those #'s. That was so disappointing to me and just another step in my journey into the dark side.

On another note it is extremely difficult to have your name removed from church records voluntarily. It took my wife three years. There were numerous lies told to her and she had to finally threaten them with legal action. Only then did they do it. I know several people that this has happened to.

I agree with Scott that the LDS are misunderstood but a lot of that has to do with the LDS holier than though attitude and their changing doctrine. I mean when you belong to the "only true church" it is going to affect how the members act towards others and when you teach that god is all knowing and never changing but the church doctrine or practices do it looks very hypocritical. Also when you are baptizing by proxy the Jewish Holocaust victims by way of the baptism for the dead against the specific request not to do so by the Jewish community and leaders... well that speaks for itself.

Spencer Kimball I believe was the first leader that actually tried very hard to break the "attitude" problem and preached heavily in being more accepting, tolerant and humble. I really liked that man and his wife. She was so damn cute, funny, and grandmotherly. I think he did a very good PR job for the church.

[DiscGo]

Interesting perspective Last Child. Thanks for sharing it.



I also took that statement as a passive aggressive stab at several aspects of the church. Mainly though trying to say that the truth doesn't matter but only the illusion of truth matters.

That is totally how I interpreted that comment.




On another note it is extremely difficult to have your name removed from church records voluntarily. It took my wife three years. There were numerous lies told to her and she had to finally threaten them with legal action. Only then did they do it. I know several people that this has happened to.

My brother had a very different experience. My brother left the church when he was 18 (about 13 years ago) and after about 3 years he got tired of the LDS church sending home teachers to his house every once in a while, so he found his local bishop and handed him a letter and had his name removed from the records. My brother told me the whole thing (writing the letter, finding the bishop, and giving it to him) took less than a half an hour and he has not bee disturbed once.

He is one of only two people I personally know who went through the effort of having his name removed from the LDS Church's records but he said it was easy.






Spencer Kimball I believe was the first leader that actually tried very hard to break the "attitude" problem and preached heavily in being more accepting, tolerant and humble. I really liked that man and his wife. She was so damn cute, funny, and grandmotherly. I think he did a very good PR job for the church.

I was a little kid when he was the prophet so I don't remember him well, but what I found interesting about this comment was that my Dad often talks about how cute President Kimball and his wife were together.