Sandthrax TR

[Iceaxe]

This is one of the better Sandthrax Trip Reports that I have read.

Sandthrax Trip Report (http://www.mountainproject.com/v/other_sports/highly_technical_slot_canyon_tr_sandthrax/106350239#a_106350362)

It really gives a good feel of the canyon.

:popcorn:

[forum8fox]

Glad you liked itJ! :2thumbs:
It was a blast!

[Iceaxe]

Welcome to Bogley... :2thumbs:

And since you asked about other canyons rated 4 elsewhere here is a tip for ya.... ask the question here and I'm sure you will get a lot of good suggestions from some very talented canyoneers.

:nod:

[Sombeech]

Welcome to bogley. Great report indeed.


:haha:


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w232/forum8fox/canyons/Picture210.jpg

[Iceaxe]

:eek2: :puke8:

[rockgremlin]

Great report. Lots of great pics up there.

Other difficult slots you might look into (if you haven't already): Chopslot, Frosted Flakes, Bishop, HDH, any of the King's Mesa slots, Raven, and any of the Smith's Mesa slots as well.

[nat]

Great report. Lots of great pics up there.

Other difficult slots you might look into (if you haven't already): Chopslot, Frosted Flakes, Bishop, HDH, any of the King's Mesa slots, Raven, and any of the Smith's Mesa slots as well.

Now you have me really curious Rock. What Smith Mesa are you referring to? :ne_nau: I must have a brain freeze. Smith Mesa in Zion doesn't have any slots that I know of. Is there another one?

Nat

[Jaxx]

Very awesome TR. You guys are hardcore to go in there semi blind. Not as hardcore as wearing mylar balloons as hats. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

despite the lack of information to be had on climb utah.

One item I'm curious about.... is if you had my complete beta what did you find lacking? :ne_nau:

Constructive criticism is always appreciated. :nod:

:popcorn:

[Jaxx]

How long did it take you guys. You were there at about sunrise and worried about losing light?

[AJ]

How long did it take you guys. You were there at about sunrise and worried about losing light?

Nice job guys! Sandthrax is a good canyon; some tough spots in there.

FYI, I have a report on my website: www.adventure-geek.com from our trip through; it was on 10/24/07.

This link should get you right there (but the website is designed to go from the main www.adventure-geek.com address...)
http://www.adventure-geek.com/Trips/2007/20071024.htm
(You guys can check our times if you want; or Jaxx, you can see ours. We definitely weren't rushing though; took lots of photos too. I only posted a portion of them...)

This should bring you to our set of photos. Might give you a different idea on how to deal with the crux...
http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=182549324/PictureID=4173793109/a=38054161_38054161/t_=38054161

Between the replies on Mountain Project and here; people aready gave the other challenging canyons that I know of... (The stemming ones at least...)



Take care,
A.J.

[forum8fox]

Took us all freaking day! We were up at 7 and the approach isn't long so I'm guessing it was no later then say 8:30 when we dropped in. I checked my phone I think at the silo with the subway or near there and it was around 3:30. Back to the car and beer in hand by about 5:30.

Ice it states on there it's not ment to be a guide. I wasn't trying to critisize, more like relate the sittuation to others. But having used your guides for practically all the other canyons I have been in I find they are pretty good at describing just about everything you might encounter. Not only that but they describe approx. when you will encounter significant obsticles, possible thoughts on how to deal with them and an order in which they will be encountered. I just figured you were vague and reluctant to write a full guide so as to try to keep people out of there. I don't think you have to ask me what it needs to be a comprehensive guide. It might be nice if it were one as you can tell some people have a sense of adventure too great to be held back by lack of information. It could keep people safer having the information at their disposal, atleast they know what to expect and how to gauge their progress etc. does that make any sense?

Sorry if this was more critisizm instead of being constructive, I really did try to reflect what I was thinking before and during the adventure. On the other hand would it have been such an adventure if I always knew what to expect? I guess I always have the option to keep the description in the pack you know? But if I ever want or need it I am happy to have it.

[forum8fox]

Oh and I'm not just looking for hard stemming canyons, I would like to try my hand on some tricky pot holes and possibly some tricky natural anchor building as well.

[AJ]

Oh and I'm not just looking for hard stemming canyons, I would like to try my hand on some tricky pot holes and possibly some tricky natural anchor building as well.

For potholes, start with the stuff in the swell. Quandary direct. For a good and safe challenge; try to upclimb Knotted Rope, staying in the watercourse. You can always back down if you need to.

A fun pothole is NF Iron Wash (most go around it.)

When you have had a lot of good practice, think about:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15764

Here's another stemming one:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15760

There is some serious stuff out there though; so make sure you are ready for it. I'd hate to read about you on the news...


Later,
A.J.

[Iceaxe]

Sorry if this was more critisizm instead of being constructive, I really did try to reflect what I was thinking before and during the adventure.

Gotcha... :2thumbs:

I'm thinking about adding a line something to the effect of.... If you can't walk a mile using nothing but your butt checks this canyon is not for you. :lol8:

:five:

[moab mark]

Since reading there TR maybe someone could give a quick description of what each term means. ie stemming, mae west, silo etc. Some of these terms I am not exactly familiar with what is meant.
Thanks
Mark

[Reedus]

Great report. Lots of great pics up there.

Other difficult slots you might look into (if you haven't already): Chopslot, Frosted Flakes, Bishop, HDH, any of the King's Mesa slots, Raven, and any of the Smith's Mesa slots as well.

Now you have me really curious Rock. What Smith Mesa are you referring to? :ne_nau: I must have a brain freeze. Smith Mesa in Zion doesn't have any slots that I know of. Is there another one?

Nat
I'll answer for Justin since I can reedz mindz. He is talking about the smith canyon forks on Lake Powell such as Psycho D. Not Smith Mesa.

[Iceaxe]

Since reading there TR maybe someone could give a quick description of what each term means. ie stemming, mae west, silo etc.

Most of what you seek is already posted in the

Bogley Canyoneering Glossary
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2443

:banana:

I started it but if anyone wants to fill in some of the missing items feel free....

:cool2:

[Scott Card]

Since reading there TR maybe someone could give a quick description of what each term means. ie stemming, mae west, silo etc.

Most of what you seek is already posted in the

Bogley Canyoneering Glossary
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2443

:banana:

I started it but if anyone wants to fill in some of the missing items feel free....

:cool2: bingo. I would add to the stemming definition that it may mean rear end on one side of the canyon or canyon wall and feet on the other, hands on one side and feet on the other. Or any combination of body parts touching both sides of the canyon walls while being off the deck(the bottom of the canyon). :popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

Bombay
http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/bombbay1.jpg

Mae West
http://climb-utah.com/Powell/Files/sandthrax2.jpg

Subway
http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/leprechaun1.jpg

[forum8fox]

Bombays are kinda like subways eh? only you can't go over a bombay to the other side as the back side spits you out way in the air in a wider section and down climbing at that point would drop you into the subway, I mean bombay...... A little confusing?
So the phrase used on climb utah was devils pits right? I'm assuming that's a silo? IE a generally deep cylindrical shaped room that opens in the middle of mae west obstacles, passed by bridging or a penji to the other side or down climbing and up climbing the opposite side.

can silo's be small enough to chimmney over? (IE feet and back, but big enough to still eat a person)

Wow were off on a tangent now.

[Iceaxe]

We always head off in a tangent... if it get too far off course we will just split the thread into its own topic.....

Most of these are just my definitions used by my canyon partners and myself. I'm guessing other inbred groups will have their own terms or different meanings....

What people are now calling "silos" I originally called "bells"... as in the mae west slot belled out on you. But I now use silos because that seems to be the term everyone else is using.

A large silo or keeper pothole can be a devils pit. I call any portion of canyon that can trap you in the bottom by blocking both ends with obstacle that you must climb over a devils pit.

The best way to describe a bombay is that you are happily mae westing along above a subway and the slot ends or widens drmatically. If you continue you will drop out of the slot like a bomb.

Here is how I remember Sandthrax (it's been a couple of years)... rappel, rappel, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem......stem, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem.......stem, stem, silo, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem,silo, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem,stem, bombay into a devils pit, stem, stem, big silo, crux, stem, stem, silo, stem, stem, stem, stem.

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

bingo. I would add to the stemming definition that it may mean rear end on one side of the canyon or canyon wall and feet on the other, hands on one side and feet on the other. Or any combination of body parts touching both sides of the canyon walls while being off the deck(the bottom of the canyon). :popcorn:

as group stickler, let me say ---

"Chimneying" involves feet on one side, back on the other, facing sideways or up.

"Stemming" involves a hand and foot on each side - a symmetric approach. Usually facing forward.

"Bridging" involves hands on one side, feet on the other, facing down.

"Galumphing" is moving rapidly downcanyon using stemming, and swinging the body under the arms to be caught by the feet, or a foot/butt stem.

OK, back to the usual loose use of the language.

T :moses:

[ratagonia]

Bombays are kinda like subways eh? only you can't go over a bombay to the other side as the back side spits you out way in the air in a wider section and down climbing at that point would drop you into the subway, I mean bombay...... A little confusing?
So the phrase used on climb utah was devils pits right? I'm assuming that's a silo? IE a generally deep cylindrical shaped room that opens in the middle of mae west obstacles, passed by bridging or a penji to the other side or down climbing and up climbing the opposite side.

can silo's be small enough to chimmney over? (IE feet and back, but big enough to still eat a person)

Wow were off on a tangent now.

Silos can be any size. Small ones are called "Gapers". Big ones are called "Scary".

Tom

[Iceaxe]

as group stickler, let me say ---

Now that's how ya write up definitions that should be added to the glossary.

Thanks Tom, your words are now immortalized in the Bogley Canyoneering Glossary

:2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Bombays are kinda like subways eh? only you can't go over a bombay to the other side as the back side spits you out way in the air in a wider section and down climbing at that point would drop you into the subway, I mean bombay......

Bombays are the same as in climbing, assuming you have done some trad climbing. The canyon or crack is flared downward, such that if you go lower, you will first get less secure, then fall off.

While the original Mae West had that shape, from which the term Mae West comes (nicely wide above, sumptuously wide below, somewhat skinny in the middle), the term has come to mean almost any canyon where you are off the ground for more than a few moves. Sandthrax has a LOT of Mae Westing, but only rarely forms the true Mae West shape.

It's only a subway if you walk or crawl through it. Helps the illusion if it has some water in the bottom. Usually called a "Subway section", after the Subway in Zion.

T

[ratagonia]

So the phrase used on climb utah was devils pits right? I'm assuming that's a silo? IE a generally deep cylindrical shaped room that opens in the middle of mae west obstacles, passed by bridging or a penji to the other side or down climbing and up climbing the opposite side.

can silo's be small enough to chimmney over? (IE feet and back, but big enough to still eat a person)

Wow were off on a tangent now.

A Devil's Pit is a feature of a larger canyon, usually. Comes from the 1982 Heaps trip report:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/history/heaps82.htm

It is a paradoxical location in a canyon, where there are several ways in, but where there is no apparent exit. And by exit, we might mean for the water, or we might mean for the human beans.

A Silo COULD be called a Devil's Pit, but Silo is more descriptive. A Pothole could be called a Devil's Pit, but Pothole is more descriptive.

A Devil's pit need not be difficult. The huge landslide in Mystery (Zion) created a Devil's pit. The water seeps through the sand, or evaporates. The pile of sand is 200 feet high.

Where the crux in Sandthrax is could be considered a Devil's Pit. Getting in from upcanyon is pretty easy. Getting out, downcanyon, considerably less so.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

If I understand things correctly from Mr. Wrona.... the term mae west was first used when doing a really tight slot they were actually squeezing through. The slot was so tight they had to search up and down vertically to find a place wide enough to squeeze through.... and from that experiance the term expanded to what is common today.

At least that is anther version of where/how the term orginiated.

FWIW: Mr. Wrona was the first person I ever heard use the terms Mae West and Bunny strap..... he was also the first to use a couple of my all time favorite terms... kiddie canyoneer and rap-n-swim canyoneer.

:cool2:

[rockgremlin]

I'll answer for Justin since I can reedz mindz. He is talking about the smith canyon forks on Lake Powell such as Psycho D. Not Smith Mesa.


YES! Thanks for gettin my 6 bro!

[Scott Card]

bingo. I would add to the stemming definition that it may mean rear end on one side of the canyon or canyon wall and feet on the other, hands on one side and feet on the other. Or any combination of body parts touching both sides of the canyon walls while being off the deck(the bottom of the canyon). :popcorn:

as group stickler, let me say ---

"Chimneying" involves feet on one side, back on the other, facing sideways or up.

"Stemming" involves a hand and foot on each side - a symmetric approach. Usually facing forward.

"Bridging" involves hands on one side, feet on the other, facing down.

"Galumphing" is moving rapidly downcanyon using stemming, and swinging the body under the arms to be caught by the feet, or a foot/butt stem.

OK, back to the usual loose use of the language.

T :moses:Well now I know. Thanks oh wise stickler. And I would further loosly call stemming, bridging et al. "ah crap" or "survival" Not my favorite skill, probably because I ain't that great at any of it. Now back to trying to correctly use the terms from now on...... :haha:

[nat]

as group stickler, let me say ---


"Stemming" involves a hand and foot on each side - a symmetric approach. Usually facing forward.


T :moses:

As another "stickler", I have to disagree with this definition. It's possible (though, from my memory I'm not even sure about this) that stemming use to have this restricted definition in climbing circles. Nowadays, canyoneers generally use the term "stemming" much more generally, as any progression through a canyon where the feet are off the ground, usually with some kind of opposition: some body parts on one side of the canyon, some on the other. Doesn't have to be symetric.

Nat

[Scott Card]

as group stickler, let me say ---


"Stemming" involves a hand and foot on each side - a symmetric approach. Usually facing forward.


T :moses:

As another "stickler", I have to disagree with this definition. It's possible (though, from my memory I'm not even sure about this) that stemming use to have this restricted definition in climbing circles. Nowadays, canyoneers generally use the term "stemming" much more generally, as any progression through a canyon where the feet are off the ground, usually with some kind of opposition: some body parts on one side of the canyon, some on the other. Doesn't have to be symetric.

NatHEY!!! That is what I said. :five: Two votes for the general definition. :flag: (Although I am certainly one who appreciates precision in language, unless I can't think of the right word that is :haha: )

[ratagonia]

as group stickler, let me say ---
"Stemming" involves a hand and foot on each side - a symmetric approach. Usually facing forward.
T :moses:

As another "stickler", I have to disagree with this definition. It's possible (though, from my memory I'm not even sure about this) that stemming used to have this restricted definition in climbing circles. Nowadays, canyoneers generally use the term "stemming" much more generally, as any progression through a canyon where the feet are off the ground, usually with some kind of opposition: some body parts on one side of the canyon, some on the other. Doesn't have to be symmetric.

Nat

Ah, then I offer myself as an advocate, lobbyist and champion of a careful and particular use of the language.

A quick review of "the sources" yields no helpful information. Basic Rockcraft calls stemming 'bridging' and does not use the term stemming at all. Downward Bound is of course entertaining, but fails to make any distinctions in these areas. Both of these are, of course, quite ancient texts.

A more recent text, but emotionally perhaps on a par vis a vis datedness is the committee-written Freedom of the Hills, which again offers not much in specificity.

So, back to advocacy for me, I guess. I believe in using language to make distinctions, to distinguish between similar but different techniques by using seperate words to describe each. Thus I CLAIM, and you can follow if you wish, the fully distinct activities: stemming, chimneying, bridging, galumphing; and the all-encompassing terms such as "mae westing" and (for Mr. Card Shark) "fighting", "battling", "anguishing", and the all encompassing "working".

For the record, I hope never to use the verb "route-find"!

Tom :moses:

[forum8fox]

I think I agree with tom's logic on this one. Stemming should be one side on one wall and one side on the other (LDC right side of body on right side of canyon and left side of body on left side of canyon). Which in retro spect I did very little of in sand thrax. As a climber chimneying to me means any crack that is wide enough to squeeze into with the whole body. Including kneebars, heel & toe, arm bars, chicken wings, knee/back and feet/back. Common chimmney technique for climbers. Bridging is when you use your whole body to bridge a gap hands/feet.

Sure terms can be used as common referance, but with out really laying down guidelines for each term then it's a bit chaotic. Might as well just say knee/back, feet/back, hands/feet as we mostly did in the canyon, although none of is employed the hands/feet. This methoud leaves little room for interperitation unlike the generalization of "stem" or "chimmney" or "bridge" as seem to be thrown around randomly as obviously no one interperits them the same.

Yep we're way off on a tangent now, although semi relevantly pertaining to this canyon.

Oh and as to your route find comment. I found it funny that the description on climb utah suggested you need good map reading and route finding skills for sandthrax! HA. What a joke atleast IMO, I though that was the least of your required skills.

[ratagonia]

Yep we're way off on a tangent now, although semi relevantly pertaining to this canyon.

Oh and as to your route find comment. I found it funny that the description on climb utah suggested you need good map reading and route finding skills for sandthrax! HA. What a joke atleast IMO, I though that was the least of your required skills.

Yeah, not too hard to find.

We forgot "Houdini" - left foot on right wall, right foot on left wall; left hand on right wall, right hand on left wall.

Lynn does it. Dean does it.

I do it fairly often with the feet, but rarely with the hands.

Tom

[Scott Card]

So, back to advocacy for me, I guess. I believe in using language to make distinctions, to distinguish between similar but different techniques by using seperate words to describe each. Thus I CLAIM, and you can follow if you wish, the fully distinct activities: stemming, chimneying, bridging, galumphing; and the all-encompassing terms such as "mae westing" and (for Mr. Card Shark) "fighting", "battling", "anguishing", and the all encompassing "working".

For the record, I hope never to use the verb "route-find"!

Tom :moses: Your description of me "mae westing" is oh so painful to swallow but oh so true. Fighting, battling and anguishing? Yes. Working? Absolutely. You could probably add praying, doubting, regretting, hyperventilating, and shaking. But then when all is said and done, I am glad I did it.

I agree with your desire to be precise as to different skills. Forgive this grasshopper of his less than precise distinctions of the different skills involved in mae westing. I see the need for distinctions particularly in a canyon such as Sandthrax. To know that you will be bridging over silos at a less than desirable height is helpful for me, Mr. Poultry in Motion (hey, that may be my new internet name!) in determining whether to go into Sandthrax.

And so with my admission of a lack of fine-tuned mae westing skills and less than precise mae westing skills descriptions, I duck my head and slink away back to my case I am working on and to an arena where my big words are very expensive and unintelligible to mere folk. :lol8:

[shaggy125]

Ya, Psycho Damage is a good one, also some good high stemmers in Escalante. Some much more difficult overall and longer than Sandthrax (although the crux may not be quite as hard as Sandthrax's). PM me if you are interested in a trip this spring. ericgodfrey@gmail.com

Here is a TR of Psycho Damage:

http://utoutdoors.blogspot.com/2008/05/psychological-damage.html

[Reedus]

Ya, Psycho Damage is a good one, also some good high stemmers in Escalante. Some much more difficult overall and longer than Sandthrax (although the crux may not be quite as hard as Sandthrax's). PM me if you are interested in a trip this spring. ericgodfrey@gmail.com

Here is a TR of Psycho Damage:

http://utoutdoors.blogspot.com/2008/05/psychological-damage.html

Need to do another Powell trip. The last one was pretty sweet. And I still gotts Chop in the cross hairs...

[Jaxx]

FYI, I have a report on my website: www.adventure-geek.com from our trip through; it was on 10/24/07.

Take care,
A.J.

Took us all freaking day! We were up at 7 and the approach isn't long so I'm guessing it was no later then say 8:30 when we dropped in. I checked my phone I think at the silo with the subway or near there and it was around 3:30. Back to the car and beer in hand by about 5:30.

Thanks for the info guys.

[Spidey]

Well since it appears that no one else on either forum is willing to say it I will. These guys got lucky. Their body position in the pictures and just the amount of time it took them for 3 people indicates they didn't belong in there YET. The most experienced person had what 7 canyons. None of them of this type. I believe it's going to keep happening with Santhrax just because of it's accessability. Sooner or later someone will get very seriously hurt or killed in there because of that, and it will be on a trip like this! No skin off my nose I really don't care, but people on this forum have called others on the carpet for stupid stunts like this. So why not these guys.
Spidey :

[Iceaxe]

but people on this forum have called others on the carpet for stupid stunts like this. So why not these guys

Gosh Spidey, guess I don't consider what they did a stupid stunt.... I kinda considered you a canyon noob when you did Sandthrax.... Not a noob in the skill and talent category, since I think your are very talented..... but a noob in the experience department since you didn't have what I would have considered a high number of canyons under your belt when you did the route....

Hope ya don't take that the wrong way..... just sayin'.... ones idea of qualified differs from anthers. This group had full knowledge of what the canyon contained and was as prepared research and beta wise as well as any group that has done the route. I've always felt a canyon like Sandthrax should be a personal choice of when you feel qualified.... its not up to us to play canyon cop.... The first time I entered this canyon I knew it would eventually become a test piece......

Again... hope you don't take this wrong..... I've seen canyoneers with 10 years of experience I would advise against doing Sandthrax.... and I have talented climber friends who I would have no problem seeing them do the route after only a few canyons.... YMMV....

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

OK.... a funny story about Sandthrax since I don't think anyone was as ill-prepared for that canyon as Hank, Chris and I were on our descent.....

We had been mae westing along for what seemed like hours.... my spinster was clenched so tight from fear there was no way in hell I could fall.... my butt would have suck me tight to the wall. Chris is way ahead of Hank and I as he was the best climber

[Randi]

OK.... a funny story about Sandthrax .... instead I see alarm in Hanks eyes as he turns to me and udders the words "mine too"....

Talk about a confidence builder.... :haha:


:drums:

Talk about a funny sounding sight! Id LOVE to see Hank (or any man for that matter) UDDER a word! I can only imagine what that might look like! Sounds very entertaining! :roflol:

[Iceaxe]

http://udderindulgence.com/navigation%20bars/udder%20what%20nav1%20small.jpg

[Spidey]

Ice, No intention of being canyon cop. As I said I don't care. People want to get hurt, killed, maimed not my problem. My point was to open up a dialogue on why the pass for these guys others have been railed on for lesser stupidity. Also to open up a dialogue on the increased # of similar descents in that canyon. You say they were well prepared, but I say they had paper knowledge of the canyon nothing more as evidenced by their TR. My main question is to the canyon community at large. Kudos to these guys for gutting it out and not needing rescue. The question is have people just accepted that Santhrax will see these kinds of descents because of it's accessability, I believe it will. I hope it doesn't come back to bite us in the butt, regarding access. As far as your other statement I was new to the canyon community when I descended it, not new to canyoneering just FYI.
Spidey

[hank moon]

OK.... a funny story about Sandthrax since I don't think anyone was as ill-prepared for that canyon as Hank, Chris and I were on our descent.....

yah, and another indicator: the trivial DS (downscoot) at the head?

We rapped it.

:lol8:

[Iceaxe]

My point was to open up a dialogue on why the pass for these guys others have been railed on for lesser stupidity.

As I said... I'm not sure I would consider what they did as stupid.... I guess you would need to point me to a post on this site where "others have been railed on for lesser stupidity." and I could at least give you my reasoning if I was the one doing the railing.... or we could compare if it was others doing the railing....

The only ones I can think of are "wear a helmet" which is almost every picture without a helmet. And maybe the guys in Choprock. Who were really killed by lack of beta and not lack of skill (improper equipment). As climbers those two were capable of dealing with the obstacles, just not with hypothermia. They were not prepared "on paper" as you put it.

Anyhoo.... just my 2 cents.

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

Alright.... lets rephrase this and see if we can turn this thread into a positive learning experience....

How much technical experiance does this group think someone should have before attempting Sandthrax or a similar canyon?

How much practical experience does this group think someone should have before attempting Sandthrax or a similar canyon?

Curious minds want to know.....

:popcorn:

[AJ]

How much technical experiance does this group think someone should have before attempting Sandthrax or a similar canyon?

How much practical experience does this group think someone should have before attempting Sandthrax or a similar canyon?

Curious minds want to know.....

:popcorn:

Wouldn't watching the Utah Canyons episode of Man vs Wild be enough? ;)

[Iceaxe]

Wouldn't watching the Utah Canyons episode of Man vs Wild be enough? ;)

:roflol: we were just talking about that last Saturday.... I see great minds think a like. :five:

[Jaxx]

wait it's not. Great I have to change my post in the other thread about what test canyons we want to do.

[ratagonia]

Well since it appears that no one else on either forum is willing to say it I will. These guys got lucky. Their body position in the pictures and just the amount of time it took them for 3 people indicates they didn't belong in there YET. The most experienced person had what 7 canyons. None of them of this type. I believe it's going to keep happening with Santhrax just because of it's accessability. Sooner or later someone will get very seriously hurt or killed in there because of that, and it will be on a trip like this! No skin off my nose I really don't care, but people on this forum have called others on the carpet for stupid stunts like this. So why not these guys.
Spidey :

Thank you, Spidey.

But this IS the Bogley, where doing stupid things and getting away with it is considered good fun.

The difference with climbing is this: if you pick a (rock) climb that is way over your head, you can usually figure that out, then rap off when you've had enough. In canyons, no such luck. When Shane and Hank went into Sandthrax and got shut down, the only reason they survived was because they were smart enough to bring along Chris, and experienced and hard-core aid climber, who could imagine that climbing an 80 degree sandstone wall using three bolts and a polypro water-skiing rope was "safe" - and was skilled and lucky enough to pull it off.

And just to be clear, here in America, you are certainly welcome to be as stupid as you wish. That is your right. Yee Haw! But throwing yourself into dangerous canyons without proper mentorship and experience is just rolling the dice. This time you rolled a 7. The fellows in Choprock were also stupid, and they rolled snake eyes.

Just as, it would be even more stupid, to attempt certain other "high risk" canyons before your skills are tempered by experience and teaching - especially including Psycho Damage and Smiling Cricket. That people have suggested these to you, to ME, indicates a lack of common sense on their part. YES, with, for instance, Eric, you would have a fun time in Psycho Damage, and learn a LOT. By yourselves, there's a good chance that someone would get hurt. (In this instance, I consider 5% a "good chance" - notice that say, 19 times out of 20, you would not get hurt. It's that one time that really counts, however).

Yes, I know, you are young, strong and indestructable, just like most everyone else here. No reason to wear a helmet, your head is hard enough to protect your () brain.

OK, enough abuse. Yes, you were stupid to throw yourself at Sandthrax. Yes, you were strong, skilled and lucky enough to complete it. Good job. Thank you. Now, don't do it again, OK?

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

I think Tom's being a little dramatic..... actually.... our only real problem with our first try at Sandthrax was we just ran out of daylight. If it had of been a warm spring day I believe things would have been different. We took the escape we did because it kept us out of the canyon bottom during the night so we would not get flashed.... and it would keep us warm all night working on the escape.... and the warm all night part sounded great to me since I was wearing shorts and a t-shirt and it was 30 degrees. Using the side escape was Chris's idea and he was pretty sure we could do it.... that also sounded good to me.... It was dark, we were cold, it wasn't fun anymore, we just wanted out.....

Knowing what I know now we would have been much better off finishing the canyon and not going out the side. Also looking back.... When we hit the crux it was dark, I'm thinking Chris could climb it. We never tried and Chris never even saw the crux that night. While having Chris was a great asset.... if it had of just been Hank and I I'm pretty sure we would have finished off the canyon the next day by going out the bottom. I'm guessing we would have just drilled our way over the crux.

One last item.... while being in the slot over night was the most miserable night of my life.... I never felt we were in any real danger outside the normal canyoneering stuff. We left a detailed itinerary with a trusted person who did as instructed when we didn't report in on time. We always knew we were getting out.... it was just a matter of when and could we do it ourselves.

YMMV

[forum8fox]

I don't think it was exactly luck that got us through. We did have a back up plan so there was no way we could be trapped (hammer, hand drill, hooks, 10 studs). Both Eric and I are fairly experienced aid climbers (I've lead 4 C3 pitches). I also had a bunch of food and water and layers so a night in the canyon would have been survivable. I had been in boss hog and alcatraz prior to this trip and took a ton of oppertunitys to learn all the techniques I could in a less exposed environment so as to prepare for something like this. (this might be an interesting read, 17 posts down: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/other_sports/tight_and_technical_slot_canyons/106291995)I felt up to the test. We never did anything we weren't 100% sure about when it comes to body english and that's mostly why it took us so long (there was alot of coaching). We all knew the whole canyon would be a DFU type sittuation. It was known if you fell you might as well be dead and there is a great possibility you would actually be dead. It's not like we got more then we expected or had planned for.

Maybe the numbers were against us, but I don't think even 100 kiddie canyons will MAKE you ready for this. Besides I'm poor and live in colorado so I can't just come out and log miles anytime I want to prepare for something that I really want to do. Life is short, why pussy-foot around your dreams and wait for someone to lead your path? My personality won't allow me that luxury, I make things happen for myself. On top of that a huge part of me wants to know what I'm capable of and push the level of my skills, you have to test yourself sometimes to learn.

I'm glad we did it in the style we did, I don't think I would have felt as much of an accomplishment if we had been guided or had we deployed a rim support team. This was a great test peice and I feel like I can relate to the first couple teams to descent this beast. I think Eric would agree on the style as most of the time he doesn't even want a paper guide unless it's realy necessary.
I feel like this was my inittiation into real hard technical canyoneering, and if it wasn't for this trip I would probly never have (kinda) met Shane and Tom. Hopefully I've proven worthy enough to tag along with them sometime on something real hard (as I have no mentors).

As for the access what do you propose should happen? No acces to anyone with out a guide(mentor) and rim support team, helmets and X number of canyons under their belt? Yea right. What I think might help though would be posting as acurate and descriptive info as possible as well as a good amount of pictures of all the hardships to be faced. That way no one is suprised by what they find in this easily accessable canyon. A mention of great endurance required, and possibly a list of suggested prerequisit canyons could help too. It's pretty obvious this is a test peice and will remain that way.

Looks like the next couple canyons on the list are probly psycho d and quandry direct, hopefully between now and memorial weekend.

[Iceaxe]

This will probably hurt ol' Tom's feelings..... but.... if I'm doing a hard canyon or exploring a new area I'll trade two grey breads for one 25 year old rope gun any day.

It's been my experience that a young fella who can climb 5.12 will save my butt more often then a guy that knows how to tie a bunch of really cool knots. Them young guys just don't understand that it's impossible so they just go ahead and do it.....

YMMV

But on a side note... I think the very best teams are a couple grey breads teamed with a couple of young rope guns.

And a warning for the kiddies playing along at home.... being young doesn't automatically make you a rope gun :cripple:

:popcorn:

[Jaxx]

YES! I have lead a 5.8 and I have also done a handful of canyons. I am doing Sandthrax this weekend now that I am a rope gun!


And a warning for the kiddies playing along at home.... being young doesn't automatically make you a rope gun

Oh bummer.
:haha:

[Iceaxe]

Or we can use the official Iceaxe rope gun test.... which is.... if I can climb it you are not a rope gun. :five:

[Brian in SLC]

This will probably hurt ol' Tom's feelings..... but.... if I'm doing a hard canyon or exploring a new area I'll trade two grey breads for one 25 year old rope gun any day.

It's been my experience that a young fella who can climb 5.12 will save my butt more often then a guy that knows how to tie a bunch of really cool knots. Them young guys just don't understand that it's impossible so they just go ahead and do it.....

That's pretty funny...

But, depends on said rope gun's ability too. 5.12 sports climbing doesn't equal being able to cruz, say, Certain Death in Little Cottonwood (all you 5.8 climbers give that a go and report back here, eh?).

Tom knows Kelly O, who still works at BD retail. Kelly's story of climbing a 5.6 trad route in LCC is hilarious. At the time, he was probably leading 5.12 or "easy" 5.13 sport.

Anyhoo, point being, being strong at specific types of climbing might not be enough. Seen a number of very strong climbers hike "All Chalk No Action" for instance, and back off, say, "Paranoia Streak" to the left, which is at least two grades easier.

I always get a kick out of folks who proudly profess, "I'm a 5.8 climber". Oh yeah, well, I got a tick list for ya...ha ha. And, a tight top rope don't count...

Wish I could climb the wide with pride...

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC
(speaking of climbing prowess, I should embarass someone who posts here who's mentioned in Sherman's Stone Crusade as having the hardest bouldering route in the country back in the day...any guesses?)

[ratagonia]

-Brian in SLC
(speaking of climbing prowess, I should embarass someone who posts here who's mentioned in Sherman's Stone Crusade as having the hardest bouldering route in the country back in the day...any guesses?)

" ..... took over and in a brief four-year career set a standard for Indian Rock (Berkeley) that would last a decade."

Wow, rubbing shoulders with the stars...

Tom

[ratagonia]

This will probably hurt ol' Tom's feelings..... but.... if I'm doing a hard canyon or exploring a new area I'll trade two grey breads for one 25 year old rope gun any day.

:popcorn:

Mighty Tom is feelin' mighty OLD right now, after chasing the young guns in the Grand Canyon for the last two weeks. In the GC, being a young gun has a lot to do with moving a 45 lb pack up 3500 feet of loose scree than campusing between limestone gastones.

Depends on the canyon, Shane. Certainly in hard climby canyons like Sandthrax, having some of that trad-influenced stylin climbin mojo is the answer to many problems, and these fellers brought along the mojo and dispensed with the "crux" expeditiously.

But greybeards like me MUST move fluidly and efficiently, because I ain't got power, endurance or mojo to spare. Experience in these types of canyons develops cleverness in those who are paying attention. Cleverness is useful in managing risk and conserving strength.

The problem with your claim, dear Shane, is that you are talking with young guns. Young guns do not need other unseasoned young guns to show them the way - the best team is young guns and decrepit greybeards working together. Therefore, THESE young guns are unlikely to gain much by working with other unseasoned young guns. They would benefit from some greybeard coaching. There are also seasoned young guns that they might enjoy even more - and who knows what awe inspiring canyons they could accomplish together - including many I have no interest in...

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

As for the access what do you propose should happen? No acces to anyone with out a guide(mentor) and rim support team, helmets and X number of canyons under their belt? Yea right. What I think might help though would be posting as acurate and descriptive info as possible as well as a good amount of pictures of all the hardships to be faced. That way no one is suprised by what they find in this easily accessable canyon. A mention of great endurance required, and possibly a list of suggested prerequisit canyons could help too. It's pretty obvious this is a test peice and will remain that way.

Such information on Sandthrax has been available for about a year. Try here: http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/north/sand.php

comes up 4th on a google of "Sandthrax".

I suggest the access situation is just fine. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility.



Looks like the next couple canyons on the list are probly psycho d and quandry direct, hopefully between now and memorial weekend.

Quandary Direct is pretty easy. The potholes all yield easily to pack toss technique, but it is a good place to learn how the throwbags and/or pack tosses work. It is helpful if, after completing the "direct" section, one person can climb back up the bypass and clean the anchor for the first rappel, so the next party gets to figure out their own anchor for it.

Psycho D - look for passages other than the obvious.

Tom

[ratagonia]

We did have a back up plan so there was no way we could be trapped (hammer, hand drill, hooks, 10 studs). Both Eric and I are fairly experienced aid climbers (I've lead 4 C3 pitches).

Let me withdraw the concession I was going to make that you actually had a realistic sense of the risks involved. NOT!

Having drilled a lot of holes in Navajo Sandstone, let me assure you that having a drill, hammer, hooks and 10 studs, and some experience aid climbing on actual rock, in no way means that trying to drill your way out of trouble would work. Period.

The Navajo Sandstone in North Wash is only distantly related to rock. You are unlikely to be able to drill hookable holes. What size soft-rock bolts did you have? I find 3/8" Powerbolts largely ineffective, but the 1/2" Powersbolts work well if you drill a 3/8" hole and ream it to 1/2" to produce an accurate hole.

"... there was no way we could be trapped."

Laughable, if it was not in the class of "famous last words".

Next time you go out, be sure to leave a detailed itinerary with a map with your contact person, maybe even fax it to the sheriff's office. Might save time, so the SAR team knows where to go to haul the surviving members of the party out.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

A mention of great endurance required, and possibly a list of suggested prerequisit canyons could help too. It's pretty obvious this is a test peice and will remain that way.


Does the route description for The Naked Edge, King of Swords, or Crack of Fear include a list of suggested prepatory climbs?

Tom :moses:

[stefan]

-Brian in SLC
(speaking of climbing prowess, I should embarass someone who posts here who's mentioned in Sherman's Stone Crusade as having the hardest bouldering route in the country back in the day...any guesses?)

i remember when my close friends who lived nearby the route started talking about the route, and, i thought, what a small world this is.

[ratagonia]

-Brian in SLC
(speaking of climbing prowess, I should embarass someone who posts here who's mentioned in Sherman's Stone Crusade as having the hardest bouldering route in the country back in the day...any guesses?)

i remember when my close friends who lived nearby the route started talking about the route, and, i thought, what a small world this is.

bump - for the new kid on the block.

Careful out there... Doing Sandthrax before doing the other canyons mentioned is not "careful out there". It's not 5.10 trad, it is 5.10 very odd offwidth, groundfall potential. This other party did not have a problem with the crux, they had a problem with the rest of the canyon, which proved difficult without canyon-specific climbing experience.

T

[oval]

Hehe-

Interesting thread to say the least. Thanks Tom.

I don't quite view myself as in the same position as this guy, I've probably got a bit more years experience under my belt with several different types of climbing (going on 15 years of trad climbing experience, 5 of canyoneering).

Probably gonna hold off on this one, though, as there are a couple of other ones I'm more interested atm... and matching my schedule to my 2 good climbing partners that can handle themselves and the psychological side for this canyon... can't just be a canyon that I want to do, so to speak.

Anywho, very fun stuff, can't wait to get to it (and the OW... I'll have to rock-paper-scissor my trad partner for lead on the crux though... hopefully I'll win :D)! If only I didn't have to work, right? :D

[forum8fox]

Been out of the loop for a while, I got a new addiction CAVING!
Eric has talked me into another test piece, so I decided to check back in the canyoneering forum for a change (BTW you all should check out my caving TR's!). I saw this was drug up from the grave so I thought I would see what was up.

Anyway I had about 2-3 years canyon experience and I've been climbing on my own since I was about 16 (8 years) and I climbed before that with my neighbor as a kid. I climb upto 5.10 trad and 11+ sport and C3/+ on aid. I've climbed alot in Colorado, I've climbed in Utah a hand full of times. Squamish once. So you have more experience and your less qualified??? How does that work?

P.S. our agenda is to do a test run on quandry direct first and do psycho damage the same weekend. Then if we do well were going for smiling cricket on labor day weekend.
WE GET AFTER IT, THAT IS ALL!
Being afraid of death is no way to live your life, it's too short and no one get's out alive!

[goofball]

Then if we do well were going for smiling cricket on labor day weekend.
WE GET AFTER IT, THAT IS ALL!
Being afraid of death is no way to live your life, it's too short and no one get's out alive!

very pretty, very fun, very strenuous canyon. would hate to see awkward water levels in the keepers though. while your there replace those old bolts ! please ? and maybe carry in a 40' ladder to secure in place at the pit and the pendulum. that would be great.

[oval]

Anyway I had about 2-3 years canyon experience and I've been climbing on my own since I was about 16 (8 years) and I climbed before that with my neighbor as a kid. I climb upto 5.10 trad and 11+ sport and C3/+ on aid. I've climbed alot in Colorado, I've climbed in Utah a hand full of times. Squamish once. So you have more experience and your less qualified??? How does that work?

P.S. our agenda is to do a test run on quandry direct first and do psycho damage the same weekend. Then if we do well were going for smiling cricket on labor day weekend.


Hey, I meant no disrespect; you got it done and that's great. Yeah, I have more experience and more qualification, I've been climbing for longer with more varied experience all over the states you listed and then some... I've had a lot more years of knowing when to call a climb/ascent off than you have... so I should be even better off. You guys pulled it off; it was within your ability level and you are obviously proud of it... as you should be!


WE GET AFTER IT, THAT IS ALL!
Being afraid of death is no way to live your life, it's too short and no one get's out alive!

Absolutely, if you caveat that with fear is an appropriate human response that should not be ignored... it can save your life to respect Fear... or whatever it is that is causing it. There are plenty of consequences if you screw something up that shouldn't be overlooked. R and X rated climbs/canyons are not subtle areas where you are rolling the dice. That's my opinion, anyway.