HITR - January 09

[Reedus]

This turned in to one of those last minute trips thrown together. Nobody wanted to go in January because of the cold. The weather called for highs around 50, so we decided to give it a go. Two Rhino's and 4 dirt bikes. Our destination was the Hole in the Rock trail in southeast utah. I have done the trail a few times, but never with a vehicle with four wheels. The Rhino's did not disappoint. For those who have experienced the trail, it is not for beginners. There are some serious obstacles to go over. The trail takes you down to either the Rincon or cottonwood canyon directly across from the actual Hole-in-the-Rock. We headed out about 7 pm on Friday night with the plan to do a down and back in one day. Ideally, the HITR should be an overnight adventure to give you enough time to scout around the place. After a stop at Wally world in Price for some snacks, we continued south. At 2:00 am we rolled into the trailhead with temps around 30 degrees is all. We unloaded the trailer and then set up camp inside with a space heater. We didn't get started until 9 the next morning because it was cold. By ten or so it started to warm up and since you rarely get out of 2nd gear, the wind chill wasn't much of a factor. The trail itself takes 3 hours to get to the Rincon and 3.5 to get to Cottonwood canyon. We opted to forego cottonwood and try the Rincon as I have never been down there. All I can say is it was a hellava trail down there. After stopping at the lake for an hour and watching some of the guys go for a dip in the 40 degree water, we headed back to beat the daylight. Didn't make it and wow it got cold when the sun went down. Anyhow, epic trip and looking forward to another one in the spring.

[Hatchcanyon]

:2thumbs:

Have been down there but not that far!


Will try it again!

[oldno7]

Looks great Reedus, That and several others in the area are on my must do soon list.

[JP]

Gotta get me a SideXSide :mrgreen:

[ExpUt]

Great pics, a neat trail with a ton of history to boot.

FWIW the Rincon Trail is NOT open to motorized travel. I know its not signed at the top, but the National Park Service can, has and will issue citations if they catch you at the bottom of the route as it doesn't appear on their motorized travel plan. I've been in contact with their Rec Planner (Brian) of the Glen Canyon NRA, he was going to look into the issue further. Basically despite the fact the Rincon Route predated the Glen Canyon NRA, they have ever considered it a route. We had actually discussed taking him down there to actually get him on the trail (very few Park employees have been in there). Prior to my first Rincon run in 06' I called several different offices as well as asked while we were in the area, each time receiving a different answer. I got a no, a yes and a do what ever the signs in the area tell you. I've since followed up with the situation and verified they have never included it on their travel plan. :ne_nau:

PS. We ran the Hole in the Rock Road this last weekend (opposite side of lake) and also took a swim, 48*... damn cold!

[Reedus]

I had heard that it was closed to motorized use and that it was posted as such at the top. We came across no signs whatsoever and considering it was January, I didn't suspect that we would run into rangers on the lake or trail. Had it been posted, I probably would have chickened out, but we had the excuse in our back pocket that it was not posted. Any idea when they might come to a resolution to open it? Somebody put ALOT of effort to build that route of Wilson's mesa into the Rincon. It would be a shame to let it go to waste.

P.S - any idea on the "chute" route that takes you into cottonwood canyon? At what point is that trail closed to motorized vehicles? Is it legal to go to the waters edge?

[ExpUt]

...P.S - any idea on the "chute" route that takes you into cottonwood canyon? At what point is that trail closed to motorized vehicles? Is it legal to go to the waters edge?

No, it used to though. I have an old book that talks about a pile of old timers taking their Willy's Jeeps to the edge of the river (pre Powell). It is now closed and heavily signed ~2 miles from the lake, ~1 mile from the Chute. The intersection at the Rincon TH has been signed in the past, they seem to disappear. I'll make my soapbox speech short, its the users responsibility to check the current trail legalities before they head out.

[Reedus]

Fair enough. Last question: Where does one go to find out what trails are designated open and what trails are "closed"?

[ExpUt]

Fair enough. Last question: Where does one go to find out what trails are designated open and what trails are "closed"?

Great question.

Start by doing a quick search on the web for the area you will be heading to and the land manager in charge. If that doesn't produce any results, call the land manager in charge of the area you will be in. Often they will send you all the maps and publications you need, or will offer to email maps, etc or point you to them on their site.

The BLM districts in So. Utah have recently gone through major RMP revisions and their maps are still in the works, I'd expect to start seeing their new travel management plans in the coming months.

For Glen Canyon:
http://www.nps.gov/PWR/customcf/apps/maps/showmap.cfm?alphacode=glca&parkname=Glen%20Canyon%20National%20Recreation%20A rea

[fourtycal]

Ahhh my favorite part of the country. That brings back great memories of a bunch of us scouts hanging out of old jeeps on that trail. Man I need to get the dirtbikes out soon :hail2thechief:
Thanks for the post!

[Scott P]

I know its not signed at the top, but the National Park Service can, has and will issue citations if they catch you at the bottom of the route as it doesn't appear on their motorized travel plan.

Isn't it also true that with the exception of the small area near Wahweap that all vehicles on the routes within Glen Canyon National Recreation Area must be licensed highway vehicles? Even if the route were open (it has actually been officially closed for many years) I believe such vehicles as pictured are never legally permitted anywhere in the GCNRA other than the small area near Wahweap at the UT/AZ border.

[ExpUt]

...Isn't it also true that with the exception of the small area near Wahweap that all vehicles on the routes within Glen Canyon National Recreation Area must be licensed highway vehicles? Even if the route were open (it has actually been officially closed for many years) I believe such vehicles as pictured are never legally permitted anywhere in the GCNRA other than the small area near Wahweap at the UT/AZ border.

I was under the same impression Scott, but too be honest I couldn't find anything on the website to indicate one way or the other. I've spent time on both sides of HITR as well as the Blue Notch side of Lake Powell, I can't say I've seen any restrictions as such on motor vehicles?

Scott brings up a great point, in addition to verifying a route is open, make sure its open to your type of travel. Many routes and areas do not allow non street-legal vehicles (Timpanooke, Elephant Hill, Maze, White Rim to name a few)

[Scott P]

I was under the same impression Scott, but too be honest I couldn't find anything on the website to indicate one way or the other

ExpUt, here is the link directly from the NPS website if interested:

http://www.nps.gov/glca/parknews/advisories.htm


Off Road Vehicle Use

Vehicles and bicycles are not permitted off -road at any location in the park, except for the designated ORV area at Lone Rock Beach. All vehicles must be licensed and street legal.

[Reedus]

The more trip reports I post on here, the more I discover what a rebellious bastard I am. Shame on my ass for breaking the law.

[accadacca]

The more trip reports I post on here, the more I discover what a rebellious bastard I am. Shame on my ass for breaking the law.
Ahhh hell. Your on the up and up man. This compared to blowing up old trailers...child's play. :amazon: :lol8:

[JP]

I think it's time to blow something else up, it's a new year :haha:

[Reedus]

Maybe I could stir two hornets nests with the next one: 5 gallon bucket o' tanny + delicate arch??? One for the anti- blow-up-shit crowd, and one for the environmental, don't tread on cryptoorgasmic soil crowd. :nod:


Gotta weigh the cost first:
Cost of bucket o' tanny = $80
Gas to get to Delicate arch = $20
Park entrance fee = $20
Losing my virginity to "bubba" at point of the mountain state pen = NOT QUITE WORTH IT

[JP]

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

There are always abandoned cars that need a fixing :haha:

[moab mark]

I was under the same impression Scott, but too be honest I couldn't find anything on the website to indicate one way or the other

ExpUt, here is the link directly from the NPS website if interested:

http://www.nps.gov/glca/parknews/advisories.htm


Off Road Vehicle Use

Vehicles and bicycles are not permitted off -road at any location in the park, except for the designated ORV area at Lone Rock Beach. All vehicles must be licensed and street legal.

Boy this is interesting. I know of lots and lots of people who have gone in their on dirt bikes. I doubt any of them have even thought of this. In fact I am going with a group from boise in march to hole in the rock and most of the bikes will not be street legal. :frustrated: New I shouldn't read posts on bogley. I am suprised there isn't a sign at the trail head. There is one over by hobie cat beach. :ne_nau:

[Reedus]

Lots of people??? Try EVERYONE who does the HITR trail on an OHV does not have street legal tags. The place is so damned remote that you are highly unlikely to encounter any NPS ranger. They sure as hell don't patrol the trail itself and any encounter with any enforcement officer would be from a boat on the lake, in which case they don't have the means to come after you. And for those who say you can't outrun the radios, there is nobody to friggin call. The closet town is probably Blanding which is 60+ miles away. The logistics for enforcing whether or not someone has proper registration on their bike or whether they should or shouldn't be down on the Rincon with them is not feasible. I for one will continue to ride my unlicensed steel horse on the HITR down to the Rincon. If a NPS ranger stops me, it is "sorry man, ya gotta post it if you don't want people down there." And if by chance they do post it, I am still going down there and I will wipe my ass with the ticket. That pretty much somes up how I feel about the dickweeds who think they can just close down a road that existed LONG before Lake Powell was a pipe dream

[Scott P]

If a NPS ranger stops me, it is "sorry man, ya gotta post it if you don't want people down there." And if by chance they do post it, I am still going down there and I will wipe my ass with the ticket. That pretty much somes up how I feel about the dickweeds who think they can just close down a road that existed LONG before Lake Powell was a pipe dream

In the past you also claim that it's prefectly OK to ride an OHV off trail through a WSA in areas where no road has ever existed. You also claim it's OK to blow things up on public land and leave a huge mess. And now eveyone else is the "dickweed"? :ne_nau: Somehow I'm even wondering if you really are serious about blowing up Delicate Arch if you knew you wouldn't get caught.

Keep in mind that even if the existing road to Rincon was closed decades ago for the Glen Canyon National Recreation Area, hundreds of miles of what was pristine wilderness was also lost to the GCNRA. Lake Powell should stay, but if a few routes were closed in compensation for the huge loss in wild areas, what's wrong with that? New roads (both legal and illegal) have popped up all over the place down there. Aren't even a few routes that were closed years ago fair compensation?


I am suprised there isn't a sign at the trail head.

Anyway, at least some of those routes were posted closed to motor vehicles. San Juan County and a certain ATV group (whom shall remain nameless) went and took down the signs.

GCNRA is already super-geared towards motorized recreation whether it be motorboats, jetskis, 4wd's and even some ATV areas (and I agree it should be). Now every single inch of it has to be open to ATV's as well?

Anyway, last time I was in the area (May 2008) there was much illegal off trail damage (where no road has ever existed) in the immediate area and within the GCNRA. Here is a photo I took of some of the damage next to a waterfall. Same group also rode up the midden heaps at the indian ruins (Dave Pitenal took photos of that too).

Guess I'm just a dickweed for disagreeing with such activity.

[fourtycal]

Lots of people??? Try EVERYONE who does the HITR trail on an OHV does not have street legal tags. The place is so damned remote that you are highly unlikely to encounter any NPS ranger. They sure as hell don't patrol the trail itself and any encounter with any enforcement officer would be from a boat on the lake, in which case they don't have the means to come after you. And for those who say you can't outrun the radios, there is nobody to friggin call. The closet town is probably Blanding which is 60+ miles away. The logistics for enforcing whether or not someone has proper registration on their bike or whether they should or shouldn't be down on the Rincon with them is not feasible. I for one will continue to ride my unlicensed steel horse on the HITR down to the Rincon. If a NPS ranger stops me, it is "sorry man, ya gotta post it if you don't want people down there." And if by chance they do post it, I am still going down there and I will wipe my ass with the ticket. That pretty much somes up how I feel about the dickweeds who think they can just close down a road that existed LONG before Lake Powell was a pipe dream

:five: I'm right there with you. I will always consider that trail grandfathered in by early pioneers. It's a historic place and should be left accessible.

All of this type of malarkey is why I put tiny blinkers and a license plate on my dirtbike :roll:

[Scott P]

I will always consider that trail grandfathered in by early pioneers. It's a historic place and should be left accessible.

So it's not OK for the National Park Service to close an old road decades ago in compensation for the hundreds of new ones that have been opened, even through WSA's (such as the Devils Racetrack for example)? Gotcha.

Anyway, I'll stop now but I do have to say that the ones riding illegally are the ones causing the rest of us to join wilderness groups and causes. The more people that obey the law (on either side) then the less animosity towards other groups. Hundreds of new roads and tracks are popping up all over the place, but whenever an obscure mining track that has been closed for decades remains so, people balk and use it illegally anyway. If people would quit creating all these new tracks their wouldn't be a problem.

Anyway, I'll end the soap box here, but no matter which side of the fence you are on, personally I think it's best to obey the law (and I agree that some people on both sides do break the law).

[Reedus]

My gripes with the NPS and other government bullshit beaurocratic instituitons comes from where I grew up. I am an Emery county native and at one time, I could leave my house on a dirt bike and ride out on the Swell where I wanted. The muddy gorge was always a good loop ride. Now everything is closed down in the name of bullshit wilderness areas and people crying over crypto soil that gets damaged. What the hell has society come to when tears are shed over f*&%$$ soil? Same with Factory Butte. I used to love to ride there because it was so remote and wide open. Now it is "wilderness" From my stand point of where I grew up and the places I rode, a lot has been taken away and nothing given back. The only ace I have left as far as I am concerned is that areas such as the Swell and Wilson's mesa are so big, that you couldn't begin to enforce anything. That is what it is headed to. The government will continue to close down areas in the name of wilderness but they just won't have the man power to enforce it. Where is my rebel flag icon when I need it?

[Scott P]

at one time, I could leave my house on a dirt bike and ride out on the Swell where I wanted.

I

[ExpUt]

Lots of people??? Try EVERYONE who does the HITR trail on an OHV does not have street legal tags. The place is so damned remote that you are highly unlikely to encounter any NPS ranger. They sure as hell don't patrol the trail itself and any encounter with any enforcement officer would be from a boat on the lake, in which case they don't have the means to come after you. And for those who say you can't outrun the radios, there is nobody to friggin call. The closet town is probably Blanding which is 60+ miles away. The logistics for enforcing whether or not someone has proper registration on their bike or whether they should or shouldn't be down on the Rincon with them is not feasible. I for one will continue to ride my unlicensed steel horse on the HITR down to the Rincon. If a NPS ranger stops me, it is "sorry man, ya gotta post it if you don't want people down there." And if by chance they do post it, I am still going down there and I will wipe my ass with the ticket. That pretty much somes up how I feel about the dickweeds who think they can just close down a road that existed LONG before Lake Powell was a pipe dream

We are right back to you being an oxygen thief.

Your the same type of ignorant motorized users that are ruining it for those of us that actually spend a few minute researching the areas we are heading to. Do you honestly want there to be signs for everything in this world. How about we legalize responsibility. "Cliff Ahead", "Steep hill ahead", "deep sand in 12 ft", "hot water", "cold water ahead". Get real. Guess what an NPS or BLM officer is going to do if they catch you, write you a ticked, your ignorance won't exclude you. I for one hope it happens to you.

NO SIGN IS NOT AN EXCUSE! There isn't sign around your neck stating that we shouldn't punch you in the throat, is that a valid excuse. You make me sick, such a lazy enthusiast.

I'll be honest, motorized users like you shouldn't wear helmet either. Do you realize this is EXACTLY whey they close trails and refuse to reopen them. Everyone things "if they leave it open we won't have to break the law", rather guys like you just continue to push the limits and drive where ever you want, afterall, there wasn't a sign. Heaven forbid one of your group takes the 5 minutes of searching it would take to find an answer, your too busy f**king up your next destination.

PS. Where in the f**k are the GPS coords for your last disaster you kept saying you were going to pm me? Come spring I still expect you out there with us cleaning it up.

[ExpUt]

... :five: I'm right there with you. I will always consider that trail grandfathered in by early pioneers. It's a historic place and should be left accessible...

Really? The pioneers were still there in 1958 when that road was built? I knew the San Juan Mission took months longer than anticipated, but nearly 70 years. No shit.

The Rincon Trail was built in 1958 to reach a Uranium claim on the river. The Uranium claim actually predated the road, they initially reached it by an old airstrip. We'll have to make sure to get a sign "No Landing, Deep Water" for the Reedus of the air.

[ExpUt]

...The government will continue to close down areas in the name of wilderness...

Only when ignorant and apethetic users such as youself show their true faces. If all of the motorized users would get involved in the land use scene and more importantly get educated, the tide would turn.


...but they just won't have the man power to enforce it....

The don't need to. User groups like Right Rider and Trail Patrol are taking photos. I'd be the first to turn you in for being such a douche bag. Its one thing to make an honest mistake and visit a trail you didn't know was closed... once. Its another to knowingly be a motoized f**ktard because you don't think they have the manpower to enforce the laws.

Bet you'd rape a 12 year old boy if you knew you wouldn't get caught. "But officer, he didn't have a sign on his ass".

[Reedus]

Wow, I think I hit a nerve.

Edit: Never once did I say I tear off trail and tear things up. I just choose to ignore bullshit laws that close down perfectly good roads that do no harm. Give me one reason the almighty NPS has to shut down the Rincon. Two headed horny toads down there that need protecting? Lets have your reasoning. And keep it nice. I haven't called you names.

[ExpUt]

Wow, I think I hit a nerve. Piss off is all I have to say.

Nerve, your right. Ignorant and selfish users do strike a nerve. Your comments are reflective of your true nature.

New Sign:

"No Pissing Off Here"

[Reedus]

You seriously need to calm down man. How bout one of those examples of why the Rincon was open and now is closed. Why you are at it, give me a reason why the road through the muddy gorge got closed.

[Reedus]

P.S - the 5 mile pass disaster has been cleaned up. I went out there to get exact coordinates and the mess was gone, all of it. I figured it was you who came out and cleaned up after me? :ne_nau:

[ExpUt]

You seriously need to calm down man. How bout one of those examples of why the Rincon was open and now is closed. Why you are at it, give me a reason why the road through the muddy gorge got closed.

I don't need to give you the answers, your mind is already made up. And we can all bet our lives that you and your cohorts did absolutely NOTHING when these closures were actually happening. Didn't attend public scoping and hearing meetings, didn't join an advocacy group promoting responsible recreation and advocating for the trails to stay open, didn't write a congressman or make a phone call to a BLM office. You just say on your ass and figured "they'll never catch me, I'm Reedus, I can out run a radio".

I don't know the particulars behind the routes. I'll guess that with the Rincon route, it was never considered a public ROW and when the Park Service took control of the land, they chose not to consider it a route. Yeah it sucks, believe me, I hate it as much as the next user, I spend nearly 100 days in my 4x4 or dirtbike enjoying Utah's public lands. Do you honestly think I want these routes closed. Of course not. Is it fair, I don't think so, but being ignorant isn't going to fix that.

But beyond that I don't want rogue users f-ing up the relationships and progress the advocacy groups and clubs are working on with the land managers. I also don't want the anti-motorized crowd using your words and actions to form a picture of the entire motorized community. Make no mistake, you and your type are the minority, but the actions of 5% are clearly destroying the good intentions and hard work of the other 95%. Now that's not fair.

[ExpUt]

P.S - the 5 mile pass disaster has been cleaned up. I went out there to get exact coordinates and the mess was gone, all of it. I figured it was you who came out and cleaned up after me? :ne_nau:

Who knows, it was probably the private land owner that spent his time and money cleaning up your disaster. I still want to know where its at. Your outdoor ethic preceded you, I'm not going to take your word that its been cleaned up. Don't be shy, be honest.

[Reedus]

40 degrees 12.910
112 degrees 08.447

and it was BLM, not private. Private land started about a half mile from where the shit hit the fan.

[Reedus]

As for attending the meetings...
How in the hell is one supposed to find out about stuff like that? I never hear about it. I find out when I go out riding and all of a sudden an area is closed down. I never have seen a sign on the Rincon that said it was closed. Why wouldn't the NPS put a big ole bulletin board up at the HITR trail head like they do now at the swell that shows maps of where you can and cannot ride? Same with Factory Butte, rode down there for years and then we show up one day and it is posted closed to motorized use. You can bet your ass if I knew an area that I loved to ride on was being considered for closure, I would be at those meetings and voice the same concerns I have stated on here

[ExpUt]

40 degrees 12.910
112 degrees 08.447

and it was BLM, not private. Private land started about a half mile from where the shit hit the fan.

Thanks.

I really don't want to have this back and forth banter with you Reedus, but you seriously need to grasp how counter-productive this behavior is to the future of motorized recreation on public lands. You have no clue how many thousands of hours are volunteered all over Utah to keep grasps on the limited trails we have... the RR4W and their countless hours & $$$ all over the Moab region, the moto groups and their work in the 5MOH and Factory Butte areas (which due to public comments during the recent RMP was re-opened on a large scale), the OHV groups in Price that worked their butts off mapping the routes for the new travel map, I could go on for hours. I seriously feel like your actions are spitting in the face of all those hard workers that are out there spending their time cleaning up the messes of others.

[Skylinerider]

As for attending the meetings...
How in the hell is one supposed to find out about stuff like that? I never hear about it. I find out when I go out riding and all of a sudden an area is closed down. I never have seen a sign on the Rincon that said it was closed. Why wouldn't the NPS put a big ole bulletin board up at the HITR trail head like they do now at the swell that shows maps of where you can and cannot ride? Same with Factory Butte, rode down there for years and then we show up one day and it is posted closed to motorized use. You can bet your ass if I knew an area that I loved to ride on was being considered for closure, I would be at those meetings and voice the same concerns I have stated on here

Get involved with a club, read a local paper, stop in at a BLM or USFS office. That's how you find out. they're not going to call everyone and tell them the Rincon is closed. Man up and be responsible for your own actions. :roll: :roll:

[ExpUt]

As for attending the meetings...
How in the hell is one supposed to find out about stuff like that? I never hear about it. I find out when I go out riding and all of a sudden an area is closed down.

Good question. Join a club, join the Blue Ribbon Coalition, join the Utah Trail Machine Association, join MotoUtah. Add your name to the BLM mailing list. Hell, join the SUWA email list, at least you'll hear about upcoming litigation, closures and calls for public comment.



...I never have seen a sign on the Rincon that said it was closed. Why wouldn't the NPS put a big ole bulletin board up at the HITR trail head like they do now at the swell that shows maps of where you can and cannot ride?

Wait a second? Is this the same Reedus that told us his "ace" was riding wherever he wanted in the Swell because they don't have the means to enforce it? You said the same for a sign on the HITR remember, it was today afterall. I don't get you :ne_nau:

I too wish they had more trail head signage (kiosks), not just at HITR, all over the state. The reality is they are not cheap, they get vandalized, burned and shot up and the public land manages frankly don't have the means and mode to implement them. They need user like you and I to help spread the word. OHV/4x4 groups in Moab have installed trailhead signs all over, the Canyon Country 4x4 Club in Kanab the same. RockyMountainExtreme and the U4WDA installed dozens of kiosks and trail signs in the 5MP area. OHV and dirtbike groups have been in Factory Butte for the last few months installing signs and building fences at the newly expanded riding area. A drop in the bucket, but a start.


..Same with Factory Butte, rode down there for years and then we show up one day and it is posted closed to motorized use. You can bet your ass if I knew an area that I loved to ride on was being considered for closure, I would be at those meetings and voice the same concerns I have stated on here

Dude, it was posted all over here on Bogley. The RMP's were heavily discussed and debated here, we talked about comments, and everything. We can't spoonfeed you, take some initiative. Click a link, read a map, make a phone call, wipe your own ass (with a ticket if you prefer).

Get involved.

[Reedus]

I think I am looking at it from a different angle than you. We are on the same page when it comes to off trail riding. I don't go around as Scott claimed "tearing up the land" with no regard to the effects. I stay on trail/roads and play by the rules in that aspect. It is when roads/trails that have existed for a LONG time are shut down that I get pissed and have a rebellious attitude. I have mentioned 3 areas that I can't for the life of me figure out why they were closed. You have the submissive attitude of beg and plead to get them back. My attitude is it is my land and they have no reason for shutting it down to motorized use and I will continue to use it as I had done before. Give me some valid reasons of why it was shut down and I might have a change of attitude. "they decided" just doesn't cut it. Since you are in the know of every damn rule and ordinance that gets passed as it pertains to OHV use, who the hell gets to be the recipient of a nasty letter about why the Rincon was closed? And do you really think the person reading the letter is going to give a flying phuck about what I think? Call me a lazy fat bastard, but knowingly riding my bike down the Rincon is worth the ticket I may possibly get if NPS catches me. So lazy in fact that I wouldn't bother fighting it in court, I would pay the fine nad move on. Unlike you, I don't have the time to be up on every little detail of every trail that is in negotiation with the governemnt ( contrary to my previous claim of wiping my ass with it)

[ExpUt]

... that I get pissed and have a rebellious attitude. I have mentioned 3 areas that I can't for the life of me figure out why they were closed...

Do your own research, look it up. I don't have the answers, I don't know why the speed limit is 65 either... but do you think constantly speeding is going to make them want to raise the limit. Absolutely not.

I've already told you why the Rincon is closed, because it was never officially opened. It was a privately built road accessing a private mine claim, the park service took over the land with the creation of GCNRA and never considered it a route. All your rogue actions will do nothing to change that and only stand to hurt it.


...You have the submissive attitude of beg and plead to get them back.

Do I? Your right I've never spent my weekends performing trail repair, trail patrol, general cleanups, blocking bypasses so an area doesn't because cause for closure. Don't think for a second you know what my attitude is, I'm 100% proactive in keeping trails open, both with my actions and my wallet... but when in the end a trail is closed I don't think my selfish actions are the best recourse for the situation. Trails have been re-opened. Research your precious Factory Butte and see what the extensive user comments did for that area (re-opened a TON of land that was closed due to the endangered plant they were worried about).


...Since you are in the know of every damn rule and ordinance that gets passed as it pertains to OHV use, who the hell gets to be the recipient of a nasty letter about why the Rincon was closed?

Work with me Reedus, I don't want to have to spell it out with crayons for you. The Rincon has been officially closed for over 30 years. Why don't you take some initiative and make a phone call and ask why they chose not to have it as an official route. Don't place the burden on someone else, if your planning to travel there, do some research for heavens sake.



...And do you really think the person reading the letter is going to give a flying phuck about what I think?

The person(s) reading the Factory Butte letters sure cared, and I'd like to think all the letters to the Price, Moab, Richfield, Vernal and Blanding field offices made a difference in their RMP planning too. Can you imagine what would have happened if all motorized users could burden their lives for a few minutes and a few bucks to get involved.


... Call me a lazy fat bastard...

Your a lazy fat bastard. However all add to that a selfish apathetic douche canoe too.


...but knowingly riding my bike down the Rincon is worth the ticket I may possibly get if NPS catches me. So lazy in fact that I wouldn't bother fighting it in court, I would pay the fine nad move on.

And you would knowlingly be spitting in the faces of those that have worked to save trails for you all over the state, including those that are working to get the NPS to recognize this route.


...Unlike you, I don't have the time to be up on every little detail of every trail that is in negotiation with the government...

You have the time to bitch in this thread, in fact you've spent more time in this thread than it would have taken to become educated on some of the major issues we as motorized users face here in Utah right now, future closures possibilities, future litigation, volunteer needs, etc. It doesn't take much time, just takes some initiative, you apparently have none.

[fouristhenewone]

I just gotta say HUZZAH for ExpUT, and Reedus, well...you can't say "the man made it so I can't drive wherever the f*&^ I please, and f*&^ soil and the people who care about it" and then claim to be a responsible OHV owner. you clearly are the douchebag that you come off as...

[Reedus]

You're right, I have no initiative. Game over I am done here.



Douche canoe... :roflol:
Haven't heard that one before

[Reedus]

Fouristhequeerone:

I like your signature. I have some tannerite you could use to tear down your dam and build up your dreams. Hit me PM

[fouristhenewone]

Deer Reedus - attacks on my sexual orientation, well,, their kind of gay. and thanks but no thanks on the tannerite. I'm busy training dolphins to tow barges full of tnt...it's taking a while, but I'm sure it'll pay off, hell, worst it can do is give you some more dry soil to drive over, right?

[ExpUt]

You're right, I have no initiative. Game over I am done here....

Don't bow out, bow in. If you take nothing other from this thread, spend a few bucks and join the Blue Ribbon Coalition:

http://www.sharetrails.org/

Then, find an OHV group in your area to join, this would be close to home:
http://www.seuohvclub.org/

[Scott P]

We are on the same page when it comes to off trail riding. I don't go around as Scott claimed "tearing up the land" with no regard to the effects. I stay on trail/roads and play by the rules in that aspect.

I got that impression from discussions and post from you dating back two or three years ago. In one post you said that there was nothing wrong with a bunch of ATV's tearing through the Chute and another similar one pertaining to Upper Muddy Creek. Both are in WSA's and neither has ever had a road through. Whether the statements were meant to be serious or tongue in cheek, I don't know, but with statements similar to the ones made in this thread for example, it seems like you really do want to ride off trail.


It is when roads/trails that have existed for a LONG time are shut down that I get pissed and have a rebellious attitude.

Same thing has happened to many former great hiking trails/routes because they have been turned to ATV routes. I already mentioned the Devils Racetrack. It used to be a really special place to visit (for those whom like wilderness at least) before it was turned into a road/ATV track. As far as I know, it never was a historic road, but a recent creation. Ponderosa Cove in the Swell is yet another example of a formerly pristine roadless area that was recently trashed by off-trail use from OHV's.

As far as Factory Butte goes, my father was in the second group in history to run Muddy Creek (he ran it in a canoe only one week after the first run). That was only a few decades ago and I remember him speaking of how wild and special the area was. Even as recently 1987, the book Utah Wildlands (see page 84) has some wonderful photos of Factory Butte in pristine condition and says the following:


Factory Butte sits in a vast roadless area reaching north from the Fremont River into the heart of the San Rafael Swell. In every direction the landscape is astounding: solitary buttes, thousand-foot clifflines, rainbow-colored badlands, dark volcanic mountains and narrow "reefs" of tilted sedimentary rock.

That was written (and the photos were taken) in 1987. Others such as Steve Allen and friends have been visiting since the 1960's. You say that you are angry (and you are entitled to your own opinion) about some areas around Factory Butte being recently closed because they have been open for "a LONG time". If that is why you are angry, what about the people whom have been visiting the same area for many decades and before it became trashed by ATV's? They had been visiting the area for "a long time" back when it was roadless and pristine. Doesn't it work both ways and can't they be upset too?

In my eyes I can actually see both sides of the arguement for Factory Butte (it was actually closed for a type of cactus, not wilderness designation), but not in places that were more recently trashed such as Ponderosa Cove, Devils Racetrack or any of the new tracks between I-70 and Lone Tree Crossing for example. They are new creations and if so in my own opinion (obviously others disagree) since so many new tracks have been opened and are being used it is only fair that some old ones might be closed everyonce in a while, at least as long as all these new ones start popping up. As pointed out on another thread, there are literally hundreds of new tracks that have popped up in recent decades in formerly roadless areas. On the other thread I even provided coordinates and google earth photos as well as even span of dates some were created in of just some of the newly created tracks out there. It is my feeling that there are already plenty of roads and tracks out there that can be used before making new ones or before riding off-trail. I'm not against roads at all (I'm a highway engineer); I just don't see the need for a bunch of new tracks in every roadless or formerly roadless area out there. Although people here disagree, since there are so many new roads and tracks being created out there, I even don't see any problem with closing a few old ones to compensate for the loss of roadless areas.

[scoutabout]

I think I am looking at it from a different angle than you.

Your "angle" results in additional closures.


I stay on trail/roads and play by the rules in that aspect.

You've already mentioned in this thread (and others) that you don't go by the rules or stay on designated roads/trails.


It is when roads/trails that have existed for a LONG time are shut down that I get pissed and have a rebellious attitude.

You might as well be donating cash to one of the many groups trying to eradicate motorized recreation from public lands.


I have mentioned 3 areas that I can't for the life of me figure out why they were closed.

The number one reason for motorized route closure is irresponsible users causing resource damage. Please refer to a mirror for more information.


You have the submissive attitude of beg and plead to get them back.

No, he doesn't. He has the proactive attitude of being involved in the process to save existing routes while trying to re-open historic routes that have been closed.


My attitude is it is my land and they have no reason for shutting it down to motorized use and I will continue to use it as I had done before.

This is the attitude that CAUSES closures.


Give me some valid reasons of why it was shut down and I might have a change of attitude. "they decided" just doesn't cut it.

You need to educate yourself. Land managers don't "decide" to close routes on a whim. By law, they are required to perform appropriate analysis before closing or opening a route. If you spent anytime volunteering with the BLM or FS in support of motorized recreation, you would have learned this.


Since you are in the know of every damn rule and ordinance that gets passed as it pertains to OHV use, who the hell gets to be the recipient of a nasty letter about why the Rincon was closed?

There are 11 BLM units (including GSENM) and 5 Forest units (after the Wasatch/Uinta merger) in the state of Utah. Use a map. It's very, very simple.


And do you really think the person reading the letter is going to give a flying phuck about what I think?

Based on your comments so far, your letter would probably confirm that closure was the right decision. Thanks for helping the cause.


...but knowingly riding my bike down the Rincon is worth the ticket I may possibly get if NPS catches me.

:eek2:

Wow. To the SUWA, Wilderness Society and Sierra Club operatives reading this thread: this guy does NOT represent the majority of motorized recreation users.


Unlike you, I don't have the time to be up on every little detail of every trail that is in negotiation with the governemnt ( contrary to my previous claim of wiping my ass with it)

Hmm. ExpUt put it best. Your bullshit attitude and behavior are a slap in the face to the handful of people dedicating their personal time to protecting motorized access in Utah. It's very demotivating to see your comments and think that there might be others out there who share the same opinions as you do. Your comments and behavior undo the hard work we put in during the year to protect motorized access to public lands.

[scoutabout]

It used to be a really special place to visit (for those whom like wilderness at least) before it was turned into a road/ATV track.

It still is a special place.


Although people here disagree, since there are so many new roads and tracks being created out there, I even don't see any problem with closing a few old ones to compensate for the loss of roadless areas.

Should we close hiking routes for every switchback that gets cut by a lazy hiker? Should we close old hiking routes whenever new miles are established. We have enough hiking routes in America, the number of miles should definitely remain static. :roll:

[Scott P]

Scoutabout, I agree to your post above to Reedus. Even though we disagree with each other on many issues I agree with every point.

Here are my honest answers to your questions and comments directed towards me.


Should we close hiking routes for every switchback that gets cut by a lazy hiker?

At a minimum we should close the switchbacks that were created by people being lazy. Fines and punishments for those shortcutting switchbacks should be increased.


Should we close old hiking routes whenever new miles are established?

It happens on a regular basis, so don

[Reedus]

Offense? None taken, even the name calling by ExpUT. Again, I am out of line if I really sit down and think about it, but my comments in this thread are a build up of frustration over the few last years of roads being closed that were once open or at least no one cared about OHV use on them. Being rebellious isn't the best method of tackling it, but sometimes my anti-authority personality comes out.

Reedus aka "The Douche Canoe"

[scoutabout]

Again, I am out of line if I really sit down and think about it, but my comments in this thread are a build up of frustration over the few last years of roads being closed that were once open or at least no one cared about OHV use on them. Being rebellious isn't the best method of tackling it, but sometimes my anti-authority personality comes out.


Instead of driving off trail or blowing up campers to vent your frustrations over closures, get your sorry ass involved in the fight to save motorized access. Scott P and his friends want to ELIMINATE motorized recreation on public lands (except the dirt roads leading to their crypto-killing hiking trails and rock-scarring canyoneering routes). You are helping them with this goal.

[Sombeech]

:eek2:

[ExpUt]

...Reedus aka "The Douche Canoe"

You gotta admit it has a nice ring to it :haha:

[Scott P]

Scott P and his friends want to ELIMINATE motorized recreation on public lands

Yeah; that's why I probably spend more time on the 4wd roads than you do. :roll: I used 4wd roads for recreational purposes on 36 days last year. Yes; I do log everything and can provide a list and yes on many of the trips I also did hikes. In fact the only time I ever use my SUV is if I have to use 4wd, so if you count the total mileage it isn't as great as some out there.

You know the statement above isn't true, so why claim it? I even took your side on many of the issues in this thread.

[scoutabout]

Scott P and his friends want to ELIMINATE motorized recreation on public lands

Yeah; that's why I probably spend more time on the 4wd roads than you do. :roll: I used 4wd roads for recreational purposes on 36 days last year. Yes; I do log everything and can provide a list.

Me too. I think it's a lot of fun to review the log at the end of the year and recall all the great adventures.

You beat me this year. I've been working out of state (Texas), and I spent 44 total nights in Utah in 2008. Of those 44, I was on the trail for 19. I don't count graded county roads leading to hiking trailheads as "4wd roads" although they do meet the technical definition.


You know the statement above isn't true, so why claim it? I even took your side on many of the issues.

We are on the same side as we both believe that excessive impact and resource damage is unacceptable. I believe that the 4x4 adventure begins when you get off the graded county road. That's not where it ends.

[Scott P]

I don't count graded county roads leading to hiking trailheads as "4wd roads" although they do meet the technical definition.

Neither do I. In fact if graded county roads count then nearly every day I drive (I don't drive nearly close to every day because I can shop and get to work by foot or bike) would count. I do live in a very rural area you know.

Anyway, here are some of the 4wd roads I drove last year and they are not graded county roads, though some are rougher than others. I'll just list some of the well known ones.

December 6: With tire chains, made it all the way to 10,600 feet on the Lake Fork Road (CO). Not bad for December.

November 28: Gemini Bridges and Long Canyon (UT). Only did a short hike around Gemini Bridges. The rest was for fun. Not rough ones, but fun, scenic and I like them.

November 23: Got a flat tire on the Serviceberry Road in Dino National Monument. It was a side trip to an overlook and I wish this time we would have stuck to the county road since the flat tire on the very rough road was one reason we got stranded at night on our voluntary quest to find the bighorn collar for the park service/division of wildlife. Definitely not a graded county road.

October 25: It was to get to a hike, but the Indian Rock/Bald Mountain Basin Road (CO) is very rough at least for mostly stock SUV

[nelsonccc]

Lots of people??? Try EVERYONE who does the HITR trail on an OHV does not have street legal tags. The place is so damned remote that you are highly unlikely to encounter any NPS ranger. They sure as hell don't patrol the trail itself and any encounter with any enforcement officer would be from a boat on the lake, in which case they don't have the means to come after you. And for those who say you can't outrun the radios, there is nobody to friggin call. The closet town is probably Blanding which is 60+ miles away. The logistics for enforcing whether or not someone has proper registration on their bike or whether they should or shouldn't be down on the Rincon with them is not feasible. I for one will continue to ride my unlicensed steel horse on the HITR down to the Rincon. If a NPS ranger stops me, it is "sorry man, ya gotta post it if you don't want people down there." And if by chance they do post it, I am still going down there and I will wipe my ass with the ticket. That pretty much somes up how I feel about the dickweeds who think they can just close down a road that existed LONG before Lake Powell was a pipe dream

+1.
It sounds like you didn't know it was closed. Probably isnt. It's always seems unclear and never spelled out clearly if an area is open or not. No worries. I do my best to avoid the areas that are closed and do as much due diligence as possible before going but sometimes you can't know everything. I once ended up in an area that was closed. I didn't know. The desert ranger guy told me nothing to worry about and then we spent 45 minutes talking about loopholes for all of the 'closed' areas. He says that unless its posted and clearly documented on a map that there isn't much you can do about it. But I do know a guy who got ticketed on the Paiute trail for $200 so I try to be careful.

Let me know the next time you go. I'd gladly go with you. In fact i've got a big Vegas crowd that has been looking at that trail. I'll hit you sideband to get the details.

[ExpUt]

...Probably isn't....

Remind me where you are getting your info? We've provided links that state that is closed, lets see some of your links that show it "probably isn't". I'm the first one that wants this trail open, but ignorance isn't valid.

A group of us have been looking into this, Alan Peterson from MotoUtah (and a literal savior of trails in the Price area), has sent an email to the county asking for clarification on this and several other trails within the GLNRA. I'll be sure to report back.

"Bending" the laws might work for your outdoor ethic, but when it impedes the hard work of others, it doesn't work for mine. We all know how long it takes to make a "posted" trail... well, un-posted. And that is no longer the way things work with these new RMP's, its to be considered closed unless posted open. Its sad it came to this but blatant abuses and disregard for laws forced the hand.

[anderson750]

[quote]
Same thing has happened to many former great hiking trails/routes because they have been turned to ATV routes. I already mentioned the Devils Racetrack. It used to be a really special place to visit (for those whom like wilderness at least) before it was turned into a road/ATV track. As far as I know, it never was a historic road, but a recent creation.



Not true.

Devils Race Track has been used since 1875. It was first discovered by Joe Swasey and most likely his three brothers. Devils Race Track was used to move livestock and people from Ferron to the Head of Sinbad. Wheeled vehicles have been using this trail prior to 1900. The family of Joe Swasey has a picture of him in a horse drawn carriage (with four wheels) going down Devil's Race track prior to 1900.

[Scott P]

Not true.

Devils Race Track has been used since 1875. It was first discovered by Joe Swasey and most likely his three brothers. Devils Race Track was used to move livestock and people from Ferron to the Head of Sinbad. Wheeled vehicles have been using this trail prior to 1900. The family of Joe Swasey has a picture of him in a horse drawn carriage (with four wheels) going down Devil's Race track prior to 1900.

Yes, I agree. I was refering to the motorized OHV/ATV track/road as being a recent creation, not the Devils Racetrack itself and was speaking about motorized roads. It was indeed a cattle trail used as far back as the 1800's and the amount of pictographs along the route and in the area indicate that it was a well used route long before that.

At least into the 1980's the Devils Racetrack was still a cattle trail and to my knowlege was not a motorized route before then, at least not visibily. Does anyone know of it being used for motorized vehicles prior to that? It didn't have any signs of being used a such in the 1980's, but I'd be interested to know if anyone else knows differently.

[anderson750]

Yes, I agree. I was refering to the motorized OHV/ATV track/road as being a recent creation, not the Devils Racetrack itself and was speaking about motorized roads. It was indeed a cattle trail used as far back as the 1800's and the amount of pictographs along the route and in the area indicate that it was a well used route long before that.

At least into the 1980's the Devils Racetrack was still a cattle trail and to my knowlege was not a motorized route before then, at least not visibily. Does anyone know of it being used for motorized vehicles prior to that? It didn't have any signs of being used a such in the 1980's, but I'd be interested to know if anyone else knows differently.

The Devils Racetrack was used as a wagon route as mentioned earlier. If you look at the attached picture from the Swaseys, you will see the wagon and the Twin Priests int he back ground. Since it was used as a wagon route-4 Wheels and over 60" wide, there were improvements made to the route to accomodate this.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa31/Anderson750/JS0002.jpg

The earliest documented travel of the Devils Racetrack by a motorized vehicle was in the 1940's when a tractor was driven over it by a man from Ferron. I don't think the route has ever been bulldozed, but there was a bulldozer driven over the route in the 1950's. There are places where you can still see track marks in the stone.

And if you have any understanding of RS2477, you would know that the Devils Racetrack is a RS2477 route and for it to be it had to be used prior to 1976. So for you to say prior to 1980 it was just a trail just does not add up.

[Scott P]

The earliest documented travel of the Devils Racetrack by a motorized vehicle was in the 1940's when a tractor was driven over it by a man from Ferron. I don't think the route has ever been bulldozed, but there was a bulldozer driven over the route in the 1950's. There are places where you can still see track marks in the stone.

Thanks. Actually, that's the info I was looking for and why I phrased it in the form of a question and if anyone knew of it being used (motorized) before then. PS, where did you find the photos?


And if you have any understanding of RS2477, you would know that the Devils Racetrack is a RS2477 route

Yes, I know it is a claimed RS2477 route (which is why I asked about the history and am glad you were able to provide it), but almost everything that has ever seen any kind of wheel and sometimes even trails that haven't are also made as RS2477 claims, so it's always good to ask.

For example (feel free to check), Quandary Canyon is also a nearby RS2477 route:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/swell/quandary.htm

The reasoning behind this one being a RS2477 "road" is because the Atlas Corporation actually did get vehicles into the upper end back in the 1950's. Now days you have to use ropes to access the old drill hole.

[anderson750]

quote]

where did you find the photos?[/quote]
The photo came from the Swasey family.

A friend of mine has spent a lot of time gathering history on the San Rafael Swell. He has spent a lot of time documenting the locations of many of the old cowboy camps, and history of the Spanish Trail, army routes, etc.

If you look around, there is a lot of cowboy "grafitti" within close proximity and sometimes right over the top of indian "grafitti". Have you ever wondered who these people were? There are some very interesting stories behind some of the names you find out there.




but almost everything that has ever seen any kind of wheel and sometimes even trails that haven't are also made as RS2477 claims, so it's always good to ask.

RS2477 dates back to the late 1800's and really has nothing to do with "wheel travel". I believe it was around 1866 it was established by congress to give rights of way across public land. The rights were given to counties. The counties hold those rights of way unless they relinquish them. As you can imagine, there were not motorized vehicles back then, so it only has to do with rights of way, not the mode of transportation.

[Scott P]

Have you ever wondered who these people were? There are some very interesting stories behind some of the names you find out there.

I know who many of them were and many of the stories; just not the motorized history of the route in question.

Anyway, yes I'm pretty familiar with many of the names out there (Sid and Joe Swasey, Garvins, etc.) and some of the foklore/history. I also know the history behind naming features such as Joe and His Dog, Baptist Draw, Old Woman Wash, Sids Mountain, Spotted Wolf, Walker Trail, Reds Canyon, and of course the famous well known stories on places like Sids (Swaseys) Leap etc. I like finding the old glyphs out there.

If interested, I also worked at Camp Evergreen in the Uinta Mountains 1990-1991 with Mike Swasey. If I remeber right it was his great grandfather that built the Swasey Cabin. We used to work at the camp during the week and during the weekends sometimes used to climb the mountain peaks together (Bald Mountain and Reids Peak for example).

During 2001-2004 I was also with neighbors with the Chaffin's in Fruita whom are decendants of the ones that built the Chaffin Cabin along the San Rafael River, but far down river from the Swell itself. Before the cabin burned down they collected many of the artifacts and they decorated their house with them. We were friends and at dinner at their house a few times and we went to the same church. They told us a few stories.

I've also seen many of the glyphs made by old cowboys and outlaws out there when wandering the Swell.


I believe it was around 1866 it was established by congress to give rights of way across public land.

Yes, it was 1866 and was part of the Mining Act with the original intention to give access for miners to their claims. In 1976 the law was repealed and highways over public lands that existed before 1976 were meant to be grandfathered in.

What constitutes a highway and the intentions of the law seem to be the #1 arguement between the Feds versus the Counties or State (or vs the states in some cases) or on this thread say the wilderness advocates vs the ones who don't want the wilderness.


As you can imagine, there were not motorized vehicles back then, so it only has to do with rights of way, not the mode of transportation.

Taking that one step farther, if interested the county I live in (Moffat County CO) claims that the Yampa River itself is a RS 2477 claim as well as the old indian trail up the draw on the just to the east of Dinosaur National Monument next to the Skull Creek Basin. The later has an 8-foot drop in the middle of the draw. The hiking trail up Cross Mountain is also a RS 2477 claim.

Personally, I don't think the Counties, States, Feds or user groups will ever agree on what a legitimate road or highway is.

================================================== ===============

Anyway though,

I'm fasinated with the Swell history if you ever want to chat about it sometime. I'd be happy to tell you about some of the old glyphs and ruins I've found just out wandering.

Once while climbing some of the buttes well east of the Swell I found an old register on top. Last signature was from 1911. I swore that one to secrecy, but all other's I'd be happy to share.

[ExpUt]

Great Swell history guys, I'm also a Swell history buff, don't claim to know much but I'm trying to change that. With each trip to the area I find something neat and new.


Back to HITR:
I spent some time on the phone today with Brian Sweatland, the rec planner for the GCNRA. We had spoken almost a year ago about the Rincon Trail and I wanted to follow up with him on the progress.

1. The Rincon Trail is closed, just as it has been since at least 1979 when their last management plan was devised, the history between 1979 and the earlier creation of the park isn't 100% clear though I didn't spend much time asking, its kind've moot. The reasoning behind the closure isn't quite clear either, Brian is relatively new to the area, so he's just trying to catch up on 40 years of policy. They have been asked by the county (who is claiming this as a potential RS2477 claim) to revisit the decision on this route but is a low priority given all the other disputed routes that the feds and the county are debating. Until that ever happens (and thats if it ever happens) its considered closed to all motorized travel by the GCNRA and they can and have ticketed.

2. Non street licensed vehicles in the GCNRA. Their policy on this is firm, with the exception of the one play area, once you hit GCNRA property you are to be street licensed, this can be a full size vehicle, a ATV or dirtbike that has gone through the process. This is why there was a big push by the OHV community a couple years back to allow street legalization for OHV's, it seems the counties knew their RS2477 claims could not trump the use classifications of the jurisdictions of these areas (GCNRA, Canyonlands National Park, Uinta National Forest, etc.). Again they can and will ticket for this.

We resumed our chats about doing a run from Bullfrog so that Brian can see the recreational value of the entire HITR trail, particularly the Rincon. We are going to resume talks about this in the coming weeks and additionally we are going to chat about getting some qualified user comments on the HITR and Rincon trails to help him push the issue within the NRA administration. I'll keep everyone posted (yes even you Reedus :nod:) if/when we are ready for comments.

[Reedus]

You da man Kurt. Let me know the when and where.

[Reedus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fn8QaP3nCI

[Reedus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC0BMWP811o

[Reedus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VurrVE0xiDs

[Reedus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxCqbEp2lgY

[Reedus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdAzffbcmtw

[JP]

Those things are cool :2thumbs:

[ExpUt]

Brief update. I spent a few minutes on the phone with a San Juan County commission this last week. He is working on some of the county's road claims and I'm optimistic that the info I provided him might help get the Rincon "back on the map" if you will. I'll keep you posted Reedus :naughty: