I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived.

[Iceaxe]

I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived.
By Kaitlyn Bohlin

As a backcountry ranger in Utah's Zion National Park, I learned how to canyoneer

Note from Iceaxe: As it appears someone edited the story out of the original post, below is is another version of the story. Many are of the opinion that Kaitlyn clipped into the pull rope and not the rappel rope, which is what caused the accident.


Backcountry Volunteer Survives 100 Foot Fall While Canyoneering at Zion National Park

Canyoneering is a risky activity, which is why they call it an extreme sport. One canyoneer is lucky to be alive after a botched rappel sent her tumbling 100 feet. Imagine falling that far and living to tell about it.


Kaitlyn Bohlin, a 23-year old backcountry volunteer in Zion National Park, had the day off July 30, so she went canyoneering with a friend. Zion is a wonderful place for canyoneering, probably the single best place in the Lower 48.


The pair chose Pine Creek Canyon, a highly accessible and very popular little slot canyon that’s so deep and twisty and narrow that there are only a few places where sunlight penetrates all the way to the bottom. There are lots of neat things to see and do in the canyon, which typically takes three or four hours to traverse.


Rated 3B II (intermediate difficulty) using the ACA Canyon Rating System, Pine Canyon is a technical route requiring good gear and appropriate skills. There are five exciting rappels of varying length and difficulty. There are cold water pools for swimming and about a mile of creek for wading. And all along there are fantastic shapes carved into the sandstone and wonderful acoustics to go with them. (One place is called the “The Cathedral” because of its acoustics are positively breathtaking.)


Kaitlyn Bohlin is an experienced canyoneer and had successfully negotiated Pine Creek Canyon before. This time, however, something went terribly wrong. As she was attempting the final 100-foot rappel, she fell the entire distance.


Kaitlyn’s companion called for help, using the radio that the young woman had left at the top of the rappel. Rescuers, including a nearby canyoneering group that had heard (but not seen) the fall, quickly came to her aid. When paramedics arrived (after rappelling into the canyon from a window in the Zion Tunnel) they placed the badly injured, but conscious young woman on a litter and transported her a quarter-mile to a place in the canyon suitable for a helicopter short-haul evacuation.


There Kaitlyn was lifted into a hovering Air Force Blackhawk helicopter and flown directly to the University Medical Center in Las Vegas. Having suffered multiple severe traumatic injuries, she remains in critical condition. Officials report that she is receiving intensive care and has shown signs of improvement.


The accident remains under investigation.

[Don]

Wow. Powerful. Thanks for posting.

[Deathcricket]

Wow, what a story!!

I would think it simple to verify she clipped into the wrong side. Everything would have been intact on the ground beside her. The block would show no signs of failure, probably 5 feet up the rope from her descender. Why the mystery? I guess the hikers below could have "tampered" with the evidence in the rush to save her life. But if the rope was intact, descender, anchor, and prussic, then either the block completely failed or wrong side is only option right?


What exactly happened with my equipment that day? No one is certain, but the official investigation speculates that I clipped into the pull cord side of the rope rather than the anchored side. It seems like a painfully obvious mistake, one that couldn't have possibly happened amidst my double-checking and reassuring explanations before stepping off the edge. It doesn't make sense, and I don't pretend to understand. In the end, I'm just thankful.

[Jaxx]

That is a powerful story. How could she survive the fall? Stories like this really get to me. A backcountry ranger making a mistake. I better start triple checking my work.

[Scott Card]

That is a powerful story. How could she survive the fall? Stories like this really get to me. A backcountry ranger making a mistake. I better start triple checking my work. A couple of quick observations. "Backcountry Ranger" is not equal to "experienced canyoneer" or even "newb canyoneer". Really.

Second, there was probably just enough friction on the rope/anchor to slow her down just enough that she didn't splat at the bottom. As I remember that rap, there likely would have been a couple of bounces to slow her down too.

As for the triple checking, yes. Interesting thing about that last rap is that it usually instills the automatic triple check. I heard one St. George native who called the last rap "The Intimidator". I tend to agree based on the reaction of all the newbs I have taken through there and my own reaction the first few times I did it. It is a bit scary with the blind start and all but it sure is cool once on rappel. :2thumbs:

I am just glad she did so well and survived the fall. What a crazy story.

[oldno7]

I've done canyons with some Zion backcountry rangers, they have an exact protocol for rappels. I cannot say for sure but I'd guess she was not trained in their protocol. If she was trained she did not follow it.
The rangers I have done canyons with are "experienced". I believe there is a difference between full time bc rangers and volunteer rangers.
The rest I believe what Scott said could be the case. Not really sticking up for the rangers, just giving facts as I've seen them.
Very glad Kaitlin is alive and doing as well as she is. :nod:

[Scott Card]

I've done canyons with some Zion backcountry rangers, they have an exact protocol for rappels. I cannot say for sure but I'd guess she was not trained in their protocol. If she was trained she did not follow it.
The rangers I have done canyons with are "experienced". I believe there is a difference between full time bc rangers and volunteer rangers.
The rest I believe what Scott said could be the case. Not really sticking up for the rangers, just giving facts as I've seen them.
Very glad Kaitlin is alive and doing as well as she is. :nod:

I would like to change my above statement to say that Back Country Ranger doesn't mean experienced canyoneer but it also doesn't exclude it. You are correct that there are many experienced rangers out there. My point was that the title alone does not necessarily equate to canyoneering experience. (Crap, I am probable back on the naughty list at Zion Park again with my comments......) :haha:

[oldno7]

I've done canyons with some Zion backcountry rangers, they have an exact protocol for rappels. I cannot say for sure but I'd guess she was not trained in their protocol. If she was trained she did not follow it.
The rangers I have done canyons with are "experienced". I believe there is a difference between full time bc rangers and volunteer rangers.
The rest I believe what Scott said could be the case. Not really sticking up for the rangers, just giving facts as I've seen them.
Very glad Kaitlin is alive and doing as well as she is. :nod:

(Crap, I am probable back on the naughty list at Zion Park again with my comments......) :haha:

Back On?? :lol8:

[Scott Card]

I've done canyons with some Zion backcountry rangers, they have an exact protocol for rappels. I cannot say for sure but I'd guess she was not trained in their protocol. If she was trained she did not follow it.
The rangers I have done canyons with are "experienced". I believe there is a difference between full time bc rangers and volunteer rangers.
The rest I believe what Scott said could be the case. Not really sticking up for the rangers, just giving facts as I've seen them.
Very glad Kaitlin is alive and doing as well as she is. :nod:

(Crap, I am probable back on the naughty list at Zion Park again with my comments......) :haha:

Back On?? :lol8: :lol8: Never taken off :five:

[CarpeyBiggs]

Whatever Scott, I've seen you smooth-talk a park ranger. And they still didn't ring you up. Are you back on since then?

"Uh.... Yeah.... Kolob was flowing at like 2 or 3 cfs.... Great canyon.... Uh... Gotta go, getting dark..."

[Iceaxe]

I heard one St. George native who called the last rap "The Intimidator".

I've backed off that rappel before to triple check my gear after getting a tingling feeling in my stomach..... about the only rappel I can think of that I hate worse is that first big step at the end of Heaps.

:popcorn:

[Scott Card]

Whatever Scott, I've seen you smooth-talk a park ranger. And they still didn't ring you up. Are you back on since then?

"Uh.... Yeah.... Kolob was flowing at like 2 or 3 cfs.... Great canyon.... Uh... Gotta go, getting dark..." :roflol: You were the one doing all the talking. :nod: I remembered Miranda.... As to why I am on the naughty list, you were in Alaska when I had my last little run in. I can still remember the words.... "And who is this 'Scott Card' from Mapleton?" There is thread somewhere on here and Yahoo that documents the experience. I was, shall we say, a bit peeved.

And Kolob was a great canyon... it is always a great canyon. It is a great canyon as I sit here in my office. Oh, and it was getting dark. Odds were it was flowing but no one trusts my flow rate estimation ability anyway so it really doesn't matter. I'll shut up now....you are going to get me in trouble... :haha:

[trackrunner]

I heard one St. George native who called the last rap "The Intimidator".

I've backed off that rappel before to triple check my gear after getting a tingling feeling in my stomach..... about the only rappel I can think of that I hate worse is that first big step at the end of Heaps.

:popcorn:

What gets me on that rappel is there is a swing pendulum at the beginning to start with. On the ledge I check my gear and see if I can stop myself. I can, check. As I start to slowly swing out there is that tiny slack in the system (because of the pendulum) and I feel the slack and I back off, re check, and repeat the backing off until I finally convince myself everything will be OK once I load the system on rappel. Count to 1,2,3 and slowly swing out.

[jumar]

Man, glad she came out okay.

[trackrunner]

This Kaitlyn blogs
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/KaitlynBohlin
http://meepsandmeeps.blogspot.com/

[Bo_Beck]

I've done canyons with some Zion backcountry rangers, they have an exact protocol for rappels. I cannot say for sure but I'd guess she was not trained in their protocol. If she was trained she did not follow it.
The rangers I have done canyons with are "experienced". I believe there is a difference between full time bc rangers and volunteer rangers.
The rest I believe what Scott said could be the case. Not really sticking up for the rangers, just giving facts as I've seen them.
Very glad Kaitlin is alive and doing as well as she is. :nod:

Typically a knot or carabiner block isn't protocol. The norm is on a double rope with a block off the leg loop.

[oldno7]

I've done canyons with some Zion backcountry rangers, they have an exact protocol for rappels. I cannot say for sure but I'd guess she was not trained in their protocol. If she was trained she did not follow it.
The rangers I have done canyons with are "experienced". I believe there is a difference between full time bc rangers and volunteer rangers.
The rest I believe what Scott said could be the case. Not really sticking up for the rangers, just giving facts as I've seen them.
Very glad Kaitlin is alive and doing as well as she is. :nod:

Typically a knot or carabiner block isn't protocol. The norm is on a double rope with a block off the leg loop.
"
Agree on the double strand and if joining ropes only use a double fisherman.--although I think the requirement is for a "belay" at all times, usually only the first down used a auto-bloc, after that a firemans is allowed.

[Jaxx]

On that rappel I never undo my safety line until I am hanging on the the rope. Then I remove the safety line from the anchor with my left hand.

[Iceaxe]

and if joining ropes only use a double fisherman.

It's been at least 10 years since I've canyoneered or climbed with anyone who used a double fisherman.

:popcorn:

[oldno7]

I should have said "they" (backcountry rangers) only use double fishermans. I use everything in it's appropriate place :haha:

[Scott P]

It's been at least 10 years since I've canyoneered or climbed with anyone who used a double fisherman.

I don't know anyone who would still use a double fisherman in canyoneering. It creates dangerous wear/abrasion on the rope and makes it much harder to pull.


I should have said "they" (backcountry rangers) only use double fishermans.

Really? :ne_nau:

[oldno7]

It's been at least 10 years since I've canyoneered or climbed with anyone who used a double fisherman.

I don't know anyone who would still use a double fisherman in canyoneering. It creates dangerous wear/abrasion on the rope and makes it much harder to pull.

I can introduce you to many who do, I see no validity in your "dangerous wear/abrasion" comment. Can you enlighten me? There would be no more wear than for someone who only uses toss&go at there mid rope point.
I actually use a square fisherman quite a bit and see no problem with an edk. Saying a certain bend is harder to pull in general makes no sense.
Scott-have you ever made a prusik loop? How did you join the ends?

[Iceaxe]

It creates dangerous wear/abrasion on the rope and makes it much harder to pull.

I've now buggered three ropes because of biner blocks and long pulls across sandstone, but never had the problem with just a knot, including a double fisherman.... your mileage may vary...

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

It's been at least 10 years since I've canyoneered or climbed with anyone who used a double fisherman.

I don't know anyone who would still use a double fisherman in canyoneering. It creates dangerous wear/abrasion on the rope and makes it much harder to pull.

I can introduce you to many who do, I see no validity in your "dangerous wear/abrasion" comment. Can you enlighten me? There would be no more wear than for someone who only uses toss&go at their mid-rope point.

I actually use a square fisherman quite a bit and see no problem with an edk. Saying a certain bend is harder to pull in general makes no sense.
Scott-have you ever made a prusik loop? How did you join the ends?

OBJECTION!

Knots draw attention to themselves, which sometimes creates extra abrasion on the leading edge of it. Biner block does much the same. The EDK will flip out of the way a lot of the time, thus will avoid this problem sometimes. The EDK is demonstrably EASIER to pull, as it rides over an edge easier, with less effort, and is less likely to get stuck in cracks. Has been tested and shown so by some Aussie guy.

Rappelling double strand with no knot will produce the easiest pull. No knot or biner block to get stuck or attract abrasion. One of the advantages of rigging the rope this way. Use it when it makes sense.

Making a prusik loop is another matter, as there is little desire to have it easy to untie - in fact, much the opposite. A SINGLE fisherman's seems to work fine. Toss it in the washer for a couple cycles to shrink it up well.

Anyway - the thread was about Park Backcountry Ranger protocols. Which to me and other Rich-trained and other not-Rich-trained and other not-officially-trained at all canyoneers throws up a big red flag. YIKES! Somebody determines what tool will work, and then they are supposed to use that one, and that one only? Crazy ==> Dangerous!

Further preaching: long-term safety lies in UNDERSTANDING and good habits, rather than in having protocols and following them. Just as I would never use a tied off square knot, I have no objection to No7 using it - it is a "safe" knot, just not one to my taste. A double-fisherman's? Far from my favorite, and has problems. To me it indicates someone who is "old school", and I usually try to convert them to "new school", ie EDK. :moses:

All indications are that Kaitlen got "taken down the canyon" a couple of times, and that that was the extent of her training. As I have said before, the most dangerous position to be in, is being *A beginner being led by a beginner*. Which was true in this case, she being both the beginner follower and the beginner leader.

Tom

[oldno7]

What are you objecting to Tom?
I never said a square fisherman was "the bend of choice" only a good option to know and I do use it just as I also use a grapevine or a Double EDK.
My word was "situational"
ie. I would not want to be hauled up a cliff with 2 ropes joined with an EDK, it would make me even more uncomfortable. On the other hand a double fisherman would work well in that situation. We all know the double fisherman retains greater strength than an EDK and has less tail slippage.
But for simply rappelling you can't "hardly" beat an EDK
Situational I tell ya--situational.

[ratagonia]

What are you objecting to Tom?
I never said a square fisherman was "the bend of choice" only a good option to know and I do use it just as I also use a grapevine or a Double EDK.
My word was "situational"
ie. I would not want to be hauled up a cliff with 2 ropes joined with an EDK, it would make me even more uncomfortable. On the other hand a double fisherman would work well in that situation. We all know the double fisherman retains greater strength than an EDK and has less tail slippage.
But for simply rappelling you can't "hardly" beat an EDK
Situational I tell ya--situational.

I'm objecting to this:


I see no validity in your "dangerous wear/abrasion" comment. Can you enlighten me? There would be no more wear than for someone who only uses toss&go at their mid-rope point.

IS validity to the dangerous wear/abrasion comment. IS more wear than double-strand, no knot.

And let me object to this too:



We all know the double fisherman retains greater strength than an EDK and has less tail slippage.

I don't know that, therefore we don't "all know" it. Greater strength? well, perhaps, although rope-specific tests might be required to "prove" it. In any case, it is a Red Herring as most of us are no longer using manila ropes so simple (and joining) tensile strength is not a significant issue.

Properly tied EDK has no (zero, nil, naught, cero, nyet!) tail slippage at forces generated in a rappel. Therefore it has the same tail slippage as a double-fisherman's.

"Properly tied" meaning with a backup EDK knot against the primary EDK knot.

Tom

[Scott Card]

OBJECTION!

Tom

Impressive!!! I like. :five:

[oldno7]

But for simply rappelling you can't "hardly" beat an EDK
Situational I tell ya--situational.

I'm objecting to this:


I see no validity in your "dangerous wear/abrasion" comment. Can you enlighten me? There would be no more wear than for someone who only uses toss&go at their mid-rope point.

IS validity to the dangerous wear/abrasion comment. IS more wear than double-strand, no knot.


Kurt--How can it be more? Either way your doubling your rope over a rapide. Your only claim can be if you continually use the exact same spot.
If there are "facts" showing this(Scott Card joined in) I'd love to see them.

And let me object to this too:



We all know the double fisherman retains greater strength than an EDK and has less tail slippage.

I don't know that, therefore we don't "all know" it. Greater strength? well, perhaps, although rope-specific tests might be required to "prove" it. In any case, it is a Red Herring as most of us are no longer using manila ropes so simple (and joining) tensile strength is not a significant issue.


Kurt--http://www.bwrs.org.au/research/documents/1%20main%20paper.pdf

Properly tied EDK has no (zero, nil, naught, cero, nyet!) tail slippage at forces generated in a rappel. Therefore it has the same tail slippage as a double-fisherman's.


Kurt--o.k. How bout' incorporating a fall factor 2?Or 1 Or 1/2?

"Properly tied" meaning with a backup EDK knot against the primary EDK knot.


Kurt--o.k.

Tom

[oldno7]

I object to me not knowing how to do a multi quote.

And I don't know how to fix my mess so I edited it and spaced my comments under Toms.

[ratagonia]

I object to me not knowing how to do a multi quote.

And I don't know how to fix my mess so I edited it and spaced my comments under Toms.

Manual manipulation...

start a quotation by putting a
SQUAREBRACKET quote="somebody" CLOSINGSQUAREBRACKET

end a quotation by putting a
SQUAREBRACKET NORMALSLASH quoteCLOSINGSQUAREBRACKET

Tom

[Scott Card]

[quote=oldno7]

How can it be more? Either way your doubling your rope over a rapide.
If there are "facts" showing this(Scott Card joined in) I'd love to see them.



That would be the famous Scott P not the other guy, Scott Card. The less than famous Scott Card trys to stay far away from the engineering, knot strength, friction, mind boggling stuff. :haha:

[oldno7]

[quote=oldno7]

How can it be more? Either way your doubling your rope over a rapide.
If there are "facts" showing this(Scott Card joined in) I'd love to see them.



That would be the famous Scott P not the other guy, Scott Card. The less than famous Scott Card trys to stay far away from the engineering, knot strength, friction, mind boggling stuff. :haha:

I just figured were you liked "objection" you might also be interested in "facts" :haha:

[ratagonia]

But for simply rappelling you can't "hardly" beat an EDK
Situational I tell ya--situational.

I'm objecting to this:


I see no validity in your "dangerous wear/abrasion" comment. Can you enlighten me? There would be no more wear than for someone who only uses toss&go at their mid-rope point.

IS validity to the dangerous wear/abrasion comment. IS more wear than double-strand, no knot.


Kurt--How can it be more? Either way your doubling your rope over a rapide. Your only claim can be if you continually use the exact same spot.
If there are "facts" showing this(Scott Card joined in) I'd love to see them.

The abrasion I'm talking about takes place as the rope is pulled down, for instance, when it is pulled across a rounded surface, the part that contacts the rock gets abraded. Making a bend (or a biner block) tends to make a specific place on the rope that gets a lot 'more' abrasion; while a plain rope (no knots) gets abraded evenly across its length.




And let me object to this too:



We all know the double fisherman retains greater strength than an EDK and has less tail slippage.

I don't know that, therefore we don't "all know" it. Greater strength? well, perhaps, although rope-specific tests might be required to "prove" it. In any case, it is a Red Herring as most of us are no longer using manila ropes so simple (and joining) tensile strength is not a significant issue.

Kurt-- http://www.bwrs.org.au/research/documents/1%20main%20paper.pdf

Yeah, that one. Some strange stuff in there. But did clearly demonstrate the EDK pulls better over an edge.

He used what, for us, would be strange ropes and slings.





Properly tied EDK has no (zero, nil, naught, cero, nyet!) tail slippage at forces generated in a rappel. Therefore it has the same tail slippage as a double-fisherman's.


Kurt--o.k. How bout' incorporating a fall factor 2?Or 1 Or 1/2?

I thought we were canyoneering, not climbing.

The Fall Factor model is not a good model for short falls, and for when using static ropes. Works well for dynamic ropes longer than a few feet.

Tom

[Scott Card]

[quote=oldno7]

How can it be more? Either way your doubling your rope over a rapide.
If there are "facts" showing this(Scott Card joined in) I'd love to see them.



That would be the famous Scott P not the other guy, Scott Card. The less than famous Scott Card trys to stay far away from the engineering, knot strength, friction, mind boggling stuff. :haha:

I just figured were you liked "objection" you might also be interested in "facts" :haha:Nah. Never let facts get in the way of a good story. :lol8:

[oldno7]

Kurt--o.k. How bout' incorporating a fall factor 2?Or 1 Or 1/2?

I thought we were canyoneering, not climbing.

The Fall Factor model is not a good model for short falls, and for when using static ropes. Works well for dynamic ropes longer than a few feet.

RATBOY(see--I can play with names to)[/quote]

O.K. So--lets go to what this thread started at-An accident at the last rappel in Pine Cr.
I see at least the potential for 1/2 a fall factor there.
You've never witnessed anyone on rope above an anchor?
That creates potential for a fall factor and potential to load static ropes to dangerous levels. Knowing people wouldn't do this, unknowing would.
So RATfink the potential for fall factors exist's in canyoneering and we don't have ropes to aide in absorbing the shock. Thus all the potential shock is directed at the rapide,anchor, rappeler and yes even the "bends" in the rope or webbing.
This namecalling is so cool ratmess, I wish you would have shown me it sooner :roll:

[Scott P]

I can introduce you to many who do, I see no validity in your "dangerous wear/abrasion" comment. Can you enlighten me?

Sure. You can test it on sharp corner.

The photos in the article pointed out show it well. Usually an overhand knot will flip upword when the rope is pulled rather than drag across the corner. A double fishermans cannot "flip up" and always drags right across the abrasive surface.

[oldno7]

Scott
Thanks for the intelligent reply. I see that there is more abrasion that can take place, I understood that. I also understand the general ease of pulling down an EDK,(as I stated I use it alot) I was just more getting to your statement that a double fisherman is not used any more. I believe there is a place and time for there use. THAT'S ALL
There is a reason that the ZNP backcountry rangers will only use a double fisherman to join ropes and I believe it comes down to the link I posted showing greater strength and less slippage over an EDK. I wasn't defending their practice, I cannot generally stand to rappel on 2 strands of 9mm. Especially when wet.
No matter what we have to pull down ropes(if we're not going back up)
So there will always be an abrasion factor on our ropes, I just think the difference in abrasion between an EDK and a double fisherman is minimal. That is not to say that generally an EDK "is" easier to pull down.


o.k. your turn---fire away ratDINK :haha:

[ratagonia]

Kurt--o.k. How bout' incorporating a fall factor 2?Or 1 Or 1/2?



I thought we were canyoneering, not climbing.

The Fall Factor model is not a good model for short falls, and for when using static ropes. Works well for dynamic ropes with falls longer than a few feet.




RATBOY (see--I can play with names to)

O.K. So--lets go to what this thread started at-An accident at the last rappel in Pine Cr.
I see at least the potential for 1/2 a fall factor there.
You've never witnessed anyone on rope above an anchor?
That creates potential for a fall factor and potential to load static ropes to dangerous levels. Knowing people wouldn't do this, unknowing would.
So RATfink the potential for fall factors exist's in canyoneering and we don't have ropes to aide in absorbing the shock. Thus all the potential shock is directed at the rapide,anchor, rappeler and yes even the "bends" in the rope or webbing.

This namecalling is so cool ratmess, I wish you would have shown me it sooner :roll:

Well, looks like you need to work on it a little more, my Dear Kurt --

also, you might perhaps note that none of my jests on your name have any meanness to them (except, perhaps, if you aspire to act well) - and I suggest for amity's sake, you may wish to adopt the same policy.

But, back to the point...

I am well aware that people can fall while canyoneering. The "Fall Factor" model was developed by climbers to more or less predict the forces generated in a non-ledge-hitting fall - for instance, it does a good job of projecting that while a 90 foot fall on 180 feet of rope may be more exciting, it generates pretty close to the same forces as a 10 foot fall on 20 feet of rope. The model approximates that the length of the dynamic rope is the primary spring and absorber in the system.

For short falls, this is no longer the case, as the flexing of the falling climber, and the tightening of the knots in the system, contribute considerably to the springs and dampers in the system. If the rope is static, even more so. Hence, in canyoneering situations, the Fall Factor model does not really work.

As an example, the Fall Factor model would predict that the forces would be the same for a 2 foot fall on 1 foot of rope, a 4 foot fall on 2 feet of rope, and a 20 foot fall on 10 feet of rope. I can assure you that they are not! While you are likely to barely notice the first, and hurt but survive the second, you most assuredly would not survive the latter, perhaps not even over a deep pool because your back would break before the rope breaks.

And yes, I am trying to inject some rigor into the discussion. You CAN and people DO talk about taking "Fall Factor 2" on a daisy chain or leash; and this confusion with the dynamic rope "Fall Factor" model has led to a lot of unnecessary hand wringing regarding dyneema daisy chains. Although those people who DO canyoneer or climb with 80kgs of steel plates attached to their harnesses SHOULD be concerned.

(pet peeve, can you tell?) :moses:

Tom

[oldno7]

All good point's Tom except the name calling thing, that one you missed on.
I believe your attempts were to denote a lack of respect--as were mine.
tit for tat, might be nice to move above and beyond but I'll follow your lead, I'm good either way. :nod:
also might be nice to have an objective debate over tech. issues we both care about, rather than trying to shoot someone down because they're not part of your clique. Maybe we both could learn something. :popcorn:

[ratagonia]

All good point's Tom except the name calling thing, that one you missed on. I believe your attempts were to denote a lack of respect--as were mine.


It's a free country, you are welcome to read into "it" whatever you want.
My riffing on your name was meant to be a gesture of "lightening up", joviality, playfulness, almost-affection - rather than anything mean or disrespectful.



tit for tat, might be nice to move above and beyond but I'll follow your lead, I'm good either way. :nod:
also might be nice to have an objective debate over tech. issues we both care about, rather than trying to shoot someone down because they're not part of your clique. Maybe we both could learn something. :popcorn:

I thought we were, providing an elucidating technical discussion for the entertainment and enlightenment of Bogley's readers. Again, I suggest that you read too much enmity into my dialogue.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Man, I luv's me a good internet fight that I'm not involved in...

I wore a hole in my cord at a double fisherman's knot. Ok, was on my Prusik cord on my harness, but, still. Left that rig as part of a rappel anchor. I still miss it. My two biners more, though.

Haven't used a double fisherman's to tie ropes together for some time. Still see folks do it, though. I much prefer a flemish bend and will leave a loop on the down side if I might need a clip in point. Unless I'm rappelling free air and then using two tied in ropes to belay with (a sketchy practise for TRin' really long routes), I use an EDK almost exclusively.

As far as using daisy chains to anchor in with, I don't consider one any more.

http://www.bdel.com/videos/daisy.html

I do from time to time consider a Metolius loopy chain anchor thingy (I think Sterling makes one too). Pretty bomber and no loops to bust. Also, bit more "give" than dyneema/spectra. Most often I just anchor in with a simple sewn sling or two.

Anyone use a Purcell Prusik with sewn webbing? The more I play with that style of anchor, the more I like it.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

Man, I luv's me a good internet fight that I'm not involved in...

-Brian in SLC

C'mon. Ya love em even more when you ARE involved, don't cha?

(affectionately)

Tom

[Felicia]

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?

[ratagonia]

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?

Yup. That's more or less what she described.

Your picture is from....?

T

[Felicia]

Your picture is from....?

T

The picture is of the anchor at the last rappel in Pine Creek. This is the rigging that the group before us used. They were just about to pull the rope and I took a picture so I could figure it out later.


:-)

[oldno7]

It's also a perfectly good use of a knot block as well as a double fisherman(joining 2 unequal diameter ropes)
The prudent group might leave the pull side on top until the last person(we'll call him/her LAMAR) raps, thus eliminating any confusion.
Judging from the photo it may have been equally prudent to rig double strand below the DF, but that might be an entirely different subject(rapping 2 unequal diameter ropes)

[Bo_Beck]

It's also a perfectly good use of a knot block as well as a double fisherman(joining 2 unequal diameter ropes)

A very good use of the "Sheet Bend" (back up knots as well) is to join two unequal diameter ropes. The "bend" creates less bulk to "hang-up" when pulled over a sharp edge, somewhat flat, similar to the EDK (backed up as well). Granted it is not as bulky as to create as adequate a "block" on its own, such as the DOFK.

[trackrunner]

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?


Yup. That's more or less what she described.

Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had. Rapping on the orange rope will not go through the rapide because of a knot block. A binner block could be substituted and do the same job as the knot block here.

I also spy free gear here. Did you take it? (a locking rapide)

Note to mods: this thread probably should be split into two maybe three threads. (1. I fell 106 feet; 2. Are ther issues joining two ropes with a double fishermens or other knots; and maybe 3. "rapping on the pull side" or "issues to watch for rapping SRT" but this could easily be part of discussion on I fell 106 feet.)

[Jaxx]

Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had.

Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

[Iceaxe]

This is the rigging that the group before us used.

Looks like you were following ZNP backcountry rangers... double fishermans and all....

If this is the setup katlin used and she really clipped to the wrong side I can see how the free end feeding through the biner and rapids might have slowed her down some.

:popcorn:

[CarpeyBiggs]

Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had.

Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

It still would've produced a fall, albeit perhaps a slower fall.

[trackrunner]

Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had.

Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

No! Maybe I'm blind but that saftey biner is not clipped to the anchor? :ne_nau: It is clipped to the rap strand. Rapping on the purple rope would cause a fall! Now if the saftery biner is clipped to the anchor then rapping on the pull strand would not cause a fall (assuming the pull strand is normal rope and doesn't have webbing at the end to extend the pull like Katlyin had). The last person has to unclip the saftery biner, and make sure to rappel on the rap side.

Kurt does have a good point. Leave the pull strand at the top in a rope bag. Clear as to wihch strand to rap on, only one. Last person down clips the rope bag to harness and raps.

[Jaxx]

ya you guys are right. I didn't notice it wasn't clipped into the anchor, pretty big oversight on my part.

[Felicia]

I also spy free gear here. Did you take it? (a locking rapide)



Why are the slings and 2 rapides there? What's wrong with going through the anchor ring?



Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

Based on a recent thread (somewhere - *lol*) I now understand that by clipping the knot into the rap side acts as back-up if the knot slipped through. Is this correct? It seems to me that even if the knot passed through, the biner would not

[Iceaxe]

Why are the slings and 2 rapides there? What's wrong with going through the anchor ring?

The slings and two rapids are used to tie the two anchors together. Your picture fails to show the second anchor located directly about the bottom anchor.

The idea is to have two of everything in the system so if one item fails you have a complete back-up.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/dsc04434.jpg

[Iceaxe]

[quote=Felicia]Based on a recent thread (somewhere - *lol*) I now understand that by clipping the knot into the rap side acts as back-up if the knot slipped through. Is this correct? It seems to me that even if the knot passed through, the biner would not

[trackrunner]

Ice beat me to it. I had a big long responce to answer your question.


[quote=Jaxx]
Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

Based on a recent thread (somewhere - *lol*) I now understand that by clipping the knot into the rap side acts as back-up if the knot slipped through. Is this correct? It seems to me that even if the knot passed through, the biner would not

[Iceaxe]

A little more food for thought here... I'm thinking the CP canyoneering community might be a lot safer if more people were using toss-n-go and rapping double strand.... I'm a big supporter of the KISS system..... I believe this is particularly true with beginners and intermediates..... Every additional step in the system is one more item you can screw up.

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?

Looks like the purple sling and an extra rapide that could be considered booty. The purple sling is litter, and SHOULD be removed, as it gets in the way of inspecting the anchor, and is an inappropriate color. :nono:

A second rapide? Well, people seem to like em, not sure why. Once in a while we get those gravity pulses where gravity goes up by 20X and un-backed-up 8000 lb rapides break, but they are pretty rare. :lol8:

Tom :moses:

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Ralph Waldo Emerson

[ratagonia]

Yes, by clipping back into the rope the system can not pull through...

....and to toss a little cheese into the rat infested darkness.... if Keith Beidermann had of rigged his Heaps rappel like this his system would not have failed.... maybe something to learn from these accidents...

Correct, last person has to rig the rope so it will pull...

There are other, more productive things to learn from Keith's demise. Like, spending the night at the top of the last raps when exhausted is a better choice than heading down in the dark.

Hopefully, most of us have already figured out that if you screw up your rigging, you could die.

Tom

[ratagonia]

A little more food for thought here... I'm thinking the CP canyoneering community might be a lot safer if more people were using toss-n-go and rapping double strand.... I'm a big supporter of the KISS system..... I believe this is particularly true with beginners and intermediates..... Every additional step in the system is one more item you can screw up.

:cool2:

I guess we will continue to disagree on that, Ice, but I think we can both agree that people should know what they are doing, no matter what techniques they choose to use.

Tom

[Felicia]

A little more food for thought here... I'm thinking the CP canyoneering community might be a lot safer if more people were using toss-n-go and rapping double strand.... I'm a big supporter of the KISS system..... I believe this is particularly true with beginners and intermediates..... Every additional step in the system is one more item you can screw up.

:cool2:

I guess we will continue to disagree on that, Ice, but I think we can both agree that people should know what they are doing, no matter what techniques they choose to use.

Tom

Thanks guys! If everyone agreed, life would be boring. :mrgreen:

I see both sides of the argument. At this time I will stay on Shane's side of the line, but when more knowledgeable and confident, I would like to move to Tom's side. A big part of the canyoneering experience for me is the gear and use thereof.

[Scott Card]

My progression started with long ropes doubled over or two roped tied together. I always double line rapped to begin with. It was safe where we went, it was easy to configure and there wasn

[wiese]

There are other, more productive things to learn from Keith's demise...


Unfortunately for everyone, some of the people involved on the day of the accident may never learn some of the bigger lessons in life.

Kaitlyn, wish you the best
EW

[Scott Card]

There are other, more productive things to learn from Keith's demise...


Unfortunately for everyone, some of the people involved on the day of the accident may never learn some of the bigger lessons in life.

Kaitlyn, wish you the best
EW Edit*** nevermind.

[Brian in SLC]

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/dsc04434.jpg

Not rigging for contingency?

Pull cord side doesn't have a knot in it? And is full length?

I just don't understand why folks aren't just rappelling double strand in this situation. Better friction. Less chance of wear and tear on the rope.

If you're not really rigging for a contingency and you have a single 60m rope, why wouldn't you rig for a double rappel?

I'd think that last rappel in Pine Creek should be standard to thread a single 60m rope, doubled, through the anchor and rappel double strand. Double check prior to launch that you have both strands in your ATC/rappel device, and, if folks aren't saavy on the steep rappel thing, put them on belay from above with another rope.

We'll continue to see accidents with the biner/knot block method of single strand rappelling. There's been how many now at the final rappel in Pine Creek? A couple. And, in other locations in Zion too, fatalities and close calls.

Sure, nice to have in the tool box, but, its been over promoted IMHO.

Anyhoo...

-Brian in SLC

[moab mark]

Brian,

On the last rappel of pine creek the height is pretty close to 100 ft. My imlay 200 won't double, and you cannot see the bottom from the anchor. So how do you double the rope when you have to hit pretty close to the middle. I do not know what it is about that spot but I do not like to hang out over that edge to see if the ends are on the ground. So how do you easily half the rope?
The problem seems to be with the biner block and why people do this is beyond me, but they block the rope and then drop the pull down side right then. Why??? It makes no sense to me. We use a biner on about every rappel and the last guy, who should be the most exp. drops the pull when it is his turn.
Thanks
Mark

[Felicia]

Brian,

I do not know what it is about that spot but I do not like to hang out over that edge to see if the ends are on the ground. So how do you easily half the rope?
Thanks
Mark

We pre-mark the middle of all our ropes. There is a special ink marker that you can purchase for this task.

:2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

My imlay 200 won't double

Then it's not a 200... :haha:

Just for the record.... we measured the drop at 96 feet.


We pre-mark the middle of all our ropes. There is a special ink marker that you can purchase for this task.

I just make the center of my ropes with a Sharpie.

:cool2:

[moab mark]

I've tried both the ink and a sharpie and they both wear off pretty quick, seems to be gone in about one trip.
Mark

[Iceaxe]

I blacken out about a 9" section of rope, a small section doesn't work so hot as it does wear off some. With 9" marked I can always see the mid-point. If it gets hard to see I just whip out my trusty Sharpie and mark it again.

Now.... guess how I know that I marked exactly 9"????..... :roflol:

[moab mark]

By the size of your foot? :bootyshake: :roflol:

[Iceaxe]

:lol8:

[ratagonia]

Brian,

On the last rappel of pine creek the height is pretty close to 100 ft. My imlay 200 won't double, and you cannot see the bottom from the anchor. So how do you double the rope when you have to hit pretty close to the middle. I do not know what it is about that spot but I do not like to hang out over that edge to see if the ends are on the ground. So how do you easily half the rope?
Mark

You match the ends.

Dump the rope out into a pile. Put one end through the ring, find the other end, then match them. Pull both strands through one hand taking care that they go through at the same rate. On this rappel, you can just send the ends over the edge. Continue pulling "matched", fighting any snarls that come up, until you get to the middle, which is now at the ring. Rope is halved and hanging.

Me, I'd put in a Stone knot at this point to double block it, but that's just me.

T

[ratagonia]

My imlay 200 won't double

Then it's not a 200... :haha:

Just for the record.... we measured the drop at 96 feet.


We pre-mark the middle of all our ropes. There is a special ink marker that you can purchase for this task.

I just make the center of my ropes with a Sharpie.

:cool2:

Q: How long is a 200 foot rope?

A: It depends.

My ropes are about 202 feet when new, but they tend to shrink. How much? Hard to say.

Tom

[Scott Card]

Brian,

On the last rappel of pine creek the height is pretty close to 100 ft. My imlay 200 won't double, and you cannot see the bottom from the anchor. So how do you double the rope when you have to hit pretty close to the middle. I do not know what it is about that spot but I do not like to hang out over that edge to see if the ends are on the ground. So how do you easily half the rope?
Mark

You match the ends.

Dump the rope out into a pile. Put one end through the ring, find the other end, then match them. Pull both strands through one hand taking care that they go through at the same rate. On this rappel, you can just send the ends over the edge. Continue pulling "matched", fighting any snarls that come up, until you get to the middle, which is not at the ring. Rope is halved and hanging.

Me, I'd put in a Stone knot at this point to double block it, but that's just me.

T What about a double biner block? Any disadvantages? We did that with a large group on this rap last summer and zipped folks (safely) down in short order. We actually used both strands and went single line. By the time the person at the top got their courage up and hooked up, the other person had touched bottom. I was able to fireman belay both sides of the rope. Comments? Helmet is on.

[ratagonia]

Brian,

On the last rappel of pine creek ...

Match the ends. Dump the rope out into a pile. Put one end through the ring, find the other end, then match them. Pull both strands through one hand taking care that they go through at the same rate. On this rappel, you can just send the ends over the edge. Continue pulling "matched", fighting any snarls that come up, until you get to the middle, which is not at the ring. Rope is halved and hanging.

Me, I'd put in a Stone knot at this point to double block it, but that's just me.

T What about a double biner block? Any disadvantages? We did that with a large group on this rap last summer and zipped folks (safely) down in short order. We actually used both strands and went single line. By the time the person at the top got their courage up and hooked up, the other person had touched bottom. I was able to fireman belay both sides of the rope. Comments? Helmet is on.

So a double-clove hitch (ie, with both strands) on a biner? Big Biner? Sounds good. Can also just tie off each side and clip up to the anchor itself. Helps to get the start point as high as possible - easiest start for the noobs.

Tom

[moab mark]

With my rope management skills dumping 200 ft out on the ground then feeding would become the biggest spaghetti mess known to man.
My ropes will double on that rappell but both ends are off the ground. The only times we double is if using stone knot to rappel both strands (best knot Tom ever taught me) or if the last guy down is nervous about the pull. A double 9 mm wet pretty much sucks to rappel on.
Mark

[Brian in SLC]

On the last rappel of pine creek the height is pretty close to 100 ft. My imlay 200 won't double, and you cannot see the bottom from the anchor. So how do you double the rope when you have to hit pretty close to the middle.

I do what Tom suggests if I have to exactly hit the middle. I start by flaking the rope into a pile, keeping track of either end. Then, feed one end of the rope through the rapides, match ends, and start pulling the rope through and lower it down, whilst making sure that each side doesn't slip by maintaining a pretty tight grip on both sides of the rope as you feed the one side through the rapides.

I also have a couple of other methods I use. I deploy rope a bunch. So, its always a game to me to see if I can nail a drop, by sight, with the exact amount of rope. So, I'd probably start this game at the last drop by taking one rope end, feeding it through the rapide, then pulling through the amount I think would hit bottom, and piling that initially in a stack on the ledge. Then I'd probably fix myself to the anchor, lean out, and lower both ends and see how close I got. Sometimes I toss it off, but, when deploying the full rope, I like to feed it in stages from the ends so it won't get fussy (nothing worse than a tangle on a free hanging rappel).

I can kinda measure out rope by knowing the distance, and, my wing span is around 6 feet, so, for 100 feet, I'll measure off 20 5 foot lengths, give or take, to initially estimate the amount of rope that needs to be out.

Bi-colored ropes are super nice. Middle marks can be nice, but, they wear out and are sometimes super hard to see (that "anthracite" color Mammut rope for instance). Also, there's been a number of accidents (fatalities) when folks mistake a "near end" mark for the middle as of late, and, my bet is that rope folks won't be marking the near ends anymore.

Another trick I do, which, I'm guessing I won't recommend to most folks, is that it isn't that important to exactly nail the middle of the rope on especially that rappel. I switch to a two handed break hand near the bottom if the ends aren't matched, and, will "take" on the short end and let the long end run through the rapides at the top if the ends aren't matched. This takes practise to feel comfy with, but, in actuality I do it all the time so it works for me. For most steep rappels from super solid anchors like fat rapides, the rope can move a bit on those anchors and not be a problem. You wouldn't want to do that on a sling only rappel!! Can be a nice technique to deploy on the fly. Sure beats riggin' a Prusik and stopping to fix the problem, especially free hanging.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

Another trick I do, which, I'm guessing I won't recommend to most folks, is that it isn't that important to exactly nail the middle of the rope on especially that rappel. I switch to a two handed break hand near the bottom if the ends aren't matched, and, will "take" on the short end and let the long end run through the rapides at the top if the ends aren't matched.


I use this method a lot. particularly on a rappel like the final Pine Creek. I think Brian was the first to show it to me many moons ago. It's really simple and easy once you are comfortable with it. It also really speeds things up because you just get the length's kinda close and go.

:rockon:

[moab mark]

I have never heard of that but it sounds like it would work. I assume the most experienced one goes first now instead of last. I would also make sure there is a pretty big freakin knot tied in the end of the short length. I guess you could try this with both ends on the ground and then play the longer end through the device without risking rappeling off of the one end cool.
Mark

[Brian in SLC]

I would also make sure there is a pretty big freakin knot tied in the end of the short length. I guess you could try this with both ends on the ground and then play the longer end through the device without risking rappeling off of the one end cool.

If I think I need a stopper knot, I'll use a figure eight (or overhand) on a bite. Might as well have a loop to clip into if need be. But, yeah, then you could just jam the knot into an ATC and go from there. I prefer to have some slack in the system, though, since that jammed knot will be kinda hard to undo at the bottom, compared to no knot but enough rope.

Yeah, easy to play with. Try it on a low angle slab with a highly positioned rappel anchor (one that doesn't drag the rope over an edge). Easy to "see" how it works.

Another kinda bad trick (ha ha) I've used when I don't have enough rope to touch the ground, but, kinda close...is to twist the rappel lines around enough (spin your whole self at the bottom of the rappel), that, while holding one end and allowing the other to pop through your rappel device, the whole mess sorta starts to unwind above you, while at the same time slowly, then rapidly lowering you to the ground. Not suitable for long drops! But, done it and it works in a pinch, when the fall is quasi survivable to begin with (say, less than 10 feet and a soft landing). Best practised over deep water...

Talk about stupid pet tricks...

Anyhoo...

-Brian in SLC

[Bo_Beck]

I would also make sure there is a pretty big freakin knot tied in the end of the short length. I guess you could try this with both ends on the ground and then play the longer end through the device without risking rappeling off of the one end cool.

If I think I need a stopper knot, I'll use a figure eight (or overhand) on a bite. Might as well have a loop to clip into if need be. But, yeah, then you could just jam the knot into an ATC and go from there. I prefer to have some slack in the system, though, since that jammed knot will be kinda hard to undo at the bottom, compared to no knot but enough rope.

Yeah, easy to play with. Try it on a low angle slab with a highly positioned rappel anchor (one that doesn't drag the rope over an edge). Easy to "see" how it works.

Another kinda bad trick (ha ha) I've used when I don't have enough rope to touch the ground, but, kinda close...is to twist the rappel lines around enough (spin your whole self at the bottom of the rappel), that, while holding one end and allowing the other to pop through your rappel device, the whole mess sorta starts to unwind above you, while at the same time slowly, then rapidly lowering you to the ground. Not suitable for long drops! But, done it and it works in a pinch, when the fall is quasi survivable to begin with (say, less than 10 feet and a soft landing). Best practised over deep water...

Talk about stupid pet tricks...

Anyhoo...

-Brian in SLC

What happened to a simple "sheep shank" tied with the fixed end of the rope directly into the anchor, and then slice the middle of the "sheep shank"; rap on the 2 half hitches binding the sliced "sheep shank" and once at the bottom...shake the be-jeesus out of the rope to free the bottom end half hitch? God...canyoneering is so complex, yet with such simple methods as described above it could be so worry free! :ne_nau:

[Bo_Beck]

Another kinda bad trick (ha ha) I've used when I don't have enough rope to touch the ground, but, kinda close...is to twist the rappel lines around enough (spin your whole self at the bottom of the rappel), that, while holding one end and allowing the other to pop through your rappel device, the whole mess sorta starts to unwind above you, while at the same time slowly, then rapidly lowering you to the ground. Not suitable for long drops! But, done it and it works in a pinch, when the fall is quasi survivable to begin with (say, less than 10 feet and a soft landing). Best practised over deep water...

Talk about stupid pet tricks...

Anyhoo...

-Brian in SLC

Seems I watched a home video of just this trick either on Bogley or some other forum a few years back of some kids that used this on the last drop in Pine Creek! It was pretty funny watching the guy go from a sitting position on rappel to a supine position and smack down (fortunately into water) hard from 15' above! Don't know how to retrieve the video, but I think he regretted his decision!?

[moab mark]

This seems doable ( not twirling the rope but doubling the rope)on a atc but has anyone done this on a eight or piranha? Seems like you might have a problem with the ropes binding on each other.

Since I am sitting here bored what about this idea. Feed the rope through the anchor then tie it off to your belay loop. Drop the rope bag, now rappel on the bag strand which in turn would feed rope through rapide and allow you to rappel. When you got to the bottom the rope would be doubled for the next rappeller. Would put some extra wear on the rope. Anybody done this?
Seems like a easy way to double the rope if the rope is not rubbing the rock on the way over. You would also not take the chance of rappelling off of the short end. Just a thought.
Mark

[ratagonia]

This seems doable ( not twirling the rope but doubling the rope)on a atc but has anyone done this on a eight or piranha? Seems like you might have a problem with the ropes binding on each other.

Since I am sitting here bored what about this idea. Feed the rope through the anchor then tie it off to your belay loop. Drop the rope bag, now rappel on the bag strand which in turn would feed rope through rapide and allow you to rappel. When you got to the bottom the rope would be doubled for the next rappeller. Would put some extra wear on the rope. Anybody done this?
Seems like a easy way to double the rope if the rope is not rubbing the rock on the way over. You would also not take the chance of rappelling off of the short end. Just a thought.
Mark

Yeah, that's called a "pulley rappel", with the pulley being at the top. Kinda sorta works when it is a straight shot anchor to ground. Not so good if it crosses an edge somewhere. All that movement under load in the rapid link could tear it up good if the rope is wet and sandy. Also, the rope movement in the rapide COULD undo the gate of the rapide, resulting in loss of continuity - not good.

Or how about this, Mark. Tie off one end of the rope to the anchor, drop the bag. First person raps single line to the ground. Second person adjusts length of rope, with the help of the first, then does whatever!

Tom

[moab mark]

Thats how we do it 99% of the time but we adjust the length when its time for the last one to go down. Seems like the easiest, fastest and simplest way to rig an anchor. When it comes time for the last guy to go and we do not think the rope will reach we just tie the other rope on and drop it.
Mark

[Brian in SLC]

rap on the 2 half hitches binding the sliced "sheep shank" and once at the bottom...shake the be-jeesus out of the rope to free the bottom end half hitch? God...canyoneering is so complex, yet with such simple methods as described above it could be so worry free! :ne_nau:

What could be easier than rappin' single strand from a BD cliffhanger or Pika hook then shakin' the rope to release? Geez, I'll never use a pull cord again...

-Brian in SLC

[trackrunner]

What happened to a simple "sheep shank" tied with the fixed end of the rope directly into the anchor, and then slice the middle of the "sheep shank"; rap on the 2 half hitches binding the sliced "sheep shank" and once at the bottom...shake the be-jeesus out of the rope to free the bottom end half hitch? God...canyoneering is so complex, yet with such simple methods as described above it could be so worry free! :ne_nau:

kamikaze knot

:toofunny: :roflol: :roflol: :roflol: :hahaha: :lol-lol:

[Scott Card]

Brian,

On the last rappel of pine creek ...

Match the ends. Dump the rope out into a pile. Put one end through the ring, find the other end, then match them. Pull both strands through one hand taking care that they go through at the same rate. On this rappel, you can just send the ends over the edge. Continue pulling "matched", fighting any snarls that come up, until you get to the middle, which is not at the ring. Rope is halved and hanging.

Me, I'd put in a Stone knot at this point to double block it, but that's just me.

T What about a double biner block? Any disadvantages? We did that with a large group on this rap last summer and zipped folks (safely) down in short order. We actually used both strands and went single line. By the time the person at the top got their courage up and hooked up, the other person had touched bottom. I was able to fireman belay both sides of the rope. Comments? Helmet is on.

So a double-clove hitch (ie, with both strands) on a biner? Big Biner? Sounds good. Can also just tie off each side and clip up to the anchor itself. Helps to get the start point as high as possible - easiest start for the noobs.

Tom Actually it was a single strand on one side with a block and the other strand on the other side of the anchor with a separate block. There was only an inch or two between the blocks with the anchor in the middle. It worked pretty well but not sure if it is the"preferred" way to do it. Spidey was up at the top and simply undid one block and was last man down and we pulled.

[ratagonia]

Actually it was a single strand on one side with a block and the other strand on the other side of the anchor with a separate block. There was only an inch or two between the blocks with the anchor in the middle. It worked pretty well but not sure if it is the"preferred" way to do it. Spidey was up at the top and simply undid one block and was last man down and we pulled.

Well, it shifts back and forth as the weight shifts from one strand to the other. Not the best, but acceptable.

For more fun, put the biner blocks about a foot apart, and watch the kids squirm as they suddenly drop a foot when they gain the weight-advantage - ha ha ha!

You can also just "clip up" the pull side to the anchor. No shifting, still a high attachment point. Or learn that Stone Knot, Scott, very useful, quick to tie, quick to release.

Tom :rockon:

[nonot]

If I am understanding correctly, you have one rope, two anchors, and two blocks.

If there is tension on the rope between the two blocks due to having two people on rope at the same time, without slack (which seems to be suggested by the fact that it is shifting to the heavier person), then this seems to me to be no different than a death triangle and should be considered unsafe.

[Scott Card]

If I am understanding correctly, you have one rope, two anchors, and two blocks.

If there is tension on the rope between the two blocks due to having two people on rope at the same time, without slack (which seems to be suggested by the fact that it is shifting to the heavier person), then this seems to me to be no different than a death triangle and should be considered unsafe. Here goes.... a non engineer trying to explain what we did. :eek2: At the last drop of Pine Creek there are two separate anchors that come together as one (a nice thought for Christmas). In other words you thread the one rope through the rapids then a block is set on each side of the rapid. What happened is that there was never two on the rope at the same time, or at least from more than a second or two. For what ever reason, the timing was really good with our group in that it took about exactly the same time for one to hook up, suck it up, and take the step of faith as the timing for the other person on rope to touch bottom. As for the death triangle, the rope is not independently anchored to separate anchors. The rope is blocked and not independently attached. I hope that helps and maybe I am missing your concern, let me know and the emperor will answer it for me. :lol8: p.s. I must find a description of the Stone Knot and check this out. **edit, I just checked out OzUltimate and Grog's Knots and it is not on there. Any other suggestions for the Stone Knot? I got nothing but time from 2 a.m. to 7 a.m. :haha:

[moab mark]

Scott,
What you explained made sense. Head over to the aca's website and search stone knot.
http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1216

This may take you there.
Mark

Scott the above address did not work for me so go to technical canyoneering on aca's site and look down about 15 posts and it's listed.

[moab mark]

Here is another knot website, it doesn't list the stone knot but it is a great site.
http://animatedknots.com/indexclimbing.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

[nonot]

Stein Knot courtesy of Mr. Carlson
http://www.canyoneering.net/content/index.php?categoryid=2&p2_articleid=77

[nonot]

My concern would be if there is ever a person on each rope.

The strand each person is on weights the anchor. If there is tension between the two rapids (from two different anchors), then the tension also exerts additional force on each anchor.

In this case the total force on the anchors exceeds the weight of the people on the rope in the same manner as a death triangle.

This can be solved in several ways:
1) don't weight one strand until the person on the other strand reaches the bottom as it sounds you (mostly) did
2) instead of blocking on the outside of the two rapids, block the inside of the two rapids, ensuring there is a few feet of slack between the two blocks on the inside
3) Use webbing and a new rapid to equilize the two existing anchors, thread rope through the new rapid and block as you did above.

My .003 cents (adjusted for current economy)

[ratagonia]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Taking pictures is better than working, so here's some pictures.

Tom

[moab mark]

Tom,
On the stone knot pic why do you have a biner block?
Mark

[trackrunner]

Tom,
On the stone knot pic why do you have a biner block?
Mark

The stone allows you to isolate each strand. Last person unties the stone and can rap down SRT because of the block on the red rope. If the last person went double strand they wouldn't need the biner block.

I've also heard of a figure 8 being used for a "stone 8." I've never done this method so I can't talk about the pros or cons.

[ratagonia]

Tom,
On the stone knot pic why do you have a biner block?
Mark

The stone allows you to isolate each strand. Last person unties the stone and can rap down SRT because of the block on the red rope. If the last person went double strand they wouldn't need the biner block.

I've also heard of a figure 8 being used for a "stone 8." I've never done this method so I can't talk about the pros or cons.

That's what I like to see - TEAM WORK!. yeah, what he said, even if he DOES run on TRACKS!

Depends of course. Usually I do the Stone Knot, then as the last person pull it out and either block it then, or rap double. Depends depends depends...

Tom

[Don]

I want to practice knots and anchors. I wonder what my landlord would think about a couple of bolts in the living room wall...

[moab mark]

Put them behind a picture, and then tell the landlord when you leave that the picture looks so nice on that wall he can keep it. :2thumbs: I use the banister on the stairs or open a door and use the door knobs they seem to work ok. i tried to place a couple of bolts above the headboard in my bedroom but my wife did not approve. She did not see the humor in this idea. :twisted:
Mark

[trackrunner]

That's what I like to see - TEAM WORK!. yeah, what he said, even if he DOES run on TRACKS!

Hey I was going to sign up as trailrunner but instead used an old handle name of trackrunner. Second I may be crazy (or stupid) enough to think about running KHeaplay in 24 hours.

[Felicia]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Taking pictures is better than working, so here's some pictures.

Tom


The pictures are very helpful - thanks! :2thumbs:

Don and Mark: my husband mounted anchors, similar to Tom's pictures, on a piece of 2" x 10" board about 20" long. The board is heavier and does not move freely. Also, it's easy to use sitting on the floor and it's easy to store.


:popcorn:

[Don]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Taking pictures is better than working, so here's some pictures.

Tom


The pictures are very helpful - thanks! :2thumbs:

Don and Mark: my husband mounted anchors, similar to Tom's pictures, on a piece of 2" x 10" board about 20" long. The board is heavier and does not move freely. Also, it's easy to use sitting on the floor and it's easy to store.
:popcorn:

Not a bad idea. I've been thinking about it a bit tonight; I'm going to work something out...

[Scott Card]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Taking pictures is better than working, so here's some pictures.

Tom The picture of the double biner block (not advised) is what we did except we had only one 200' rope, ie., we didn't tie two ropes together. Just one rope doubled over and a block on each side of the anchor. Tonight's project is the stone knot!

[Iceaxe]

I want to practice knots and anchors. I wonder what my landlord would think about a couple of bolts in the living room wall...

When I was learning knots I bought several key chain biners and some 3mm accessory chord. It was much easier to have everything scaled down in size so I could carry it in my pocket and practice when I had a few free minutes....

I'd practice during commercials when watching tv. In the car while waiting to pick the kids up form something or other. While sitting in the lobby waiting for an appointment, yada, yada.....

It worked for me....

:nod:

[nonot]

Is this what you did?

[Scott Card]

No, it was like Tom's picture except Tom's picture of the double biner block as two ropes tied together. We had one 200' rope that we double blocked. The anchor (bolts, webbing and rapide) was as shown or very close to what was shown in Tom's picture.

[nonot]

gotcha, disregard my previous posts then.

[Bo_Beck]

I want to practice knots and anchors. I wonder what my landlord would think about a couple of bolts in the living room wall...

When I was learning knots I bought several key chain biners and some 3mm accessory chord. It was much easier to have everything scaled down in size so I could carry it in my pocket and practice when I had a few free minutes....

I'd practice during commercials when watching tv. In the car while waiting to pick the kids up form something or other. While sitting in the lobby waiting for an appointment, yada, yada.....

It worked for me....

:nod:

I still use 3mm cord and keychain biners. Much lighter to carry and cheap enough that I can replace it after every use!

[ratagonia]

Is this what you did?

The danger of such a setup has been highly over-stated.

What are the forces in the cross-piece? Are there parts of the system vulnerable to that kind of force.

PART of the American Death Triangle is the cross-piece adding loads to the anchors. Another significant part is the (large) included angle of the triangle vectoring in larger loads to the anchors.

But in any case, applying understanding to the loads involved (I hope) is of higher interest than applying rote rules. I recommend it.

If the bolts are new, modern and well-placed, they are capable of holding 5000 lbs each in shear. The rope, webbing, chains and rings are capable of holding quite a bit too. If the chain comes down at a 45 degree angle, and you have 2 - 200 lbers on rappel, the load on the chain is 1.414* 200 lbs or around 280 lbs. Perhaps a doubling or trippling for the dynamic nature of the load... plus a 1/2 factor for the knot or the rope crossing a ring - still well within the capability of components.

If the bolts are old and crappy, then you should do everything you can to minimize loading. Simulrapping on old crappy bolts, even with 100 lb boy scouts is not recommended. Properly rigging old crappy bolts to minimize vectoring additions is highly recommend. Removing old carrpy bolts and replacing with a decent natural anchor is highly recommended, or, in certain areas, replacing with a new, shiny, well-placed bolt anchor may be appropriate.

To honor greater understanding...

Tom

[Tucker]

..

[oldno7]

To keep this in perspective....................
My comment was ZNP backcountry rangers only use a double fisherman.
I think it is a good bend and should be used where appropriate.

IMO the last rap in Pine Cr. with 2 ropes IS appropriate.(ymmv)

[Scott Card]

and if joining ropes only use a double fisherman.

It's been at least 10 years since I've canyoneered or climbed with anyone who used a double fisherman.

:popcorn:

I took a basic class with Zion Adventure Co. a few years ago. They taught the double fisherman as the way to tie 2 ropes together. I've done Pine Creek 4 times, twice with the ropes tied together with the double fisherman with no problem. The problems that day were mostly in my head. I then bought a 300' rope. I know its really heavy and all that but I'm a noobie and I'd rather carry the weight then rig something that I don't fully understand. That last rappel in PC is fun but always made me a little nervous at first. One of the guys with me the first time was breathing so fast I was worried he was going to hyperventilate and fall. Another time it was thundering and the wind was blowing sand around...then my nalgene bottle came lose and detonated on a rock far below...I thought someone was shooting at me at first....also the prusik that ZAC taught us to use kept locking up which really freaked me out...I thought I was going to have to cut it off... bad mojo that had me very nervous but all went well. :roll: I'd like to go with some of you guys sometime to learn. I'm not quite the chicken s$#t that I seem..LOL The ZAC class is all the training I ever had. I've done PC, Mystery, Echo, Keyhole, Orderville, etc....nothing too hard.

Here is a video of that one trip...the thunder is fake...the camera didn't pick up the real thunder....but the first part of the video is a good representation of my nervousness that day...the rest is prob boring and too long.

I love the death grip of the left hand. Tell me were the ropes of different diameter? Looked that way from the video. Also, for those experts out there, what is the danger (if any) of different diameter ropes on rappel?

[ratagonia]

I love the death grip of the left hand. Tell me were the ropes of different diameter? Looked that way from the video. Also, for those experts out there, what is the danger (if any) of different diameter ropes on rappel?

Can cause problems, as the ropes will want to run through the rappel device at different rates. Thus, if the ropes are not blocked at the top, they will creep. Can be controlled by carefully moving the ropes together through the device.

There was a death in Zion a couple years ago attributed to this creep. Climber on Angels Landing, rapping at night, a long rappel that the rope just barely reached - the rope crept, and one side no longer reached the ledge, rappeller went off the end.

Be careful out there (mostly a driving admonition, at the moment)...

Tom

[Iceaxe]

There was a death in Zion a couple years ago attributed to this creep. Climber on Angels Landing, rapping at night, a long rappel that the rope just barely reached - the rope crept, and one side no longer reached the ledge, rappeller went off the end.

Interesting.... rope creep is usually measured in inches or a couple of feet (at least from my experiance) and not what I'd call large amounts. I'd be interested in knowing more about this accident if you have any more details.

:popcorn:

[Tucker]

..

[ratagonia]

Interesting.... rope creep is usually measured in inches or a couple of feet (at least from my experiance) and not what I'd call large amounts. I'd be interested in knowing more about this accident if you have any more details.

Maybe Brian can dig up the details. What I remember is:

- well-liked, experienced and highly respected climber from Salt Lake
- solo'd Prodigal Son. Accident occured near the top, maybe even on the top pitch.
- happened at night.
- theorized that rope creep was the problem.
- was rapping two different cords, and the pitch was not too much shorter than the length of the rope.

My memory - ha!!!

T

[Brian in SLC]

Maybe Brian can dig up the details. What I remember is:
- well-liked, experienced and highly respected climber from Salt Lake
- solo'd Prodigal Son. Accident occured near the top, maybe even on the top pitch.
- happened at night.
- theorized that rope creep was the problem.
- was rapping two different cords, and the pitch was not too much shorter than the length of the rope.
My memory - ha!!!

Actually, you did pretty good.

Was in 1997. Fellers name was John Christensen. I don't think he was from SLC, but, south of there, maybe Provo. I remember this because it was considered the first and only climbing fatality up to that time in Zion. Happened right after new year's, either the 1st or the 2nd of January and near midnight or 1am, I seem to recall the park estimated.

Had a bunch of gear with him, including a heavy haul bag. Topped out, but, didn't want to try to drag all that stuff up the final pitch low angle gully and chimney, so, rapped back down and was rappelling down the wall with it when the accident happened.

Was using a 11mm or near lead rope, and, reportedly his haul line was 7mm and static.

I've seen quite a bit of creep when using my standard pull cord set up (6mm Kevlar and 9.4mm lead rope). Even to the point of popping the knot through a rappel ring ring on a steep rappel (filled my pants a bit). Kept further creep by managing the ropes with effort separately on rappel (one in each hand).

Anyhoo...

-Brian in SLC

[Scott Card]

I love the death grip of the left hand. Tell me were the ropes of different diameter? Looked that way from the video. Also, for those experts out there, what is the danger (if any) of different diameter ropes on rappel?


The death grip part was when I was fighting to get the prussick to slide. Also, right as I slide off the ledge is when my nalgene bottle fell and exploded. There were some expletives in the original soundtrack. There was also a raven sitting on the ledge across from me cawing...so I had all the ominous signs going :haha: :lol8: That's great! All that just adds to the ambiance of that rap. :five:

[sarahlizzy]

I have a possibly naive question. For that last rap in Pine Creek, is there an inherent problem in setting up the biner block with 2 100 foot ropes joined with an EDK and then double lining? It seems that would eliminate the danger of only clipping on to the pull cord, and thus reaching the bottom much faster than you were expecting, while still allowing the use of two shorter ropes instead of one 200 foot rope.

[Jaxx]

I think you would be ok. But 100ft is cutting it close. I would just make sure both ends are at the ground.

No real trouble with using a biner block on this rap. Seems pretty popular to do so. Just keep yourself clipped in with a sling to the anchor until you weight the rope and make sure you hooked everything up correctly.

[Iceaxe]

If you use two 100' ropes tied together and rappeling double strand you do not need a biner block.

The biner block is the most misused, inappropriately used, most over used technique I know of and has resulted in several accidents and at least one death.

And it will result in more accidents and deaths before we are finished....

Yes, a biner block is a useful tool, to bad its so misused.

:cool2:

[Jaxx]

Oh I kind of read that wrong. If you have 2 100 footers then just double strand them. Or if you are worried about slippage you could do the stone knot on your two strands.

edit: here is the stone knot http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress/knots/stone/index.php

[sarahlizzy]

Oh I kind of read that wrong. If you have 2 100 footers then just double strand them. Or if you are worried about slippage you could do the stone knot on your two strands.

edit: here is the stone knot http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress/knots/stone/index.php

Slippage was why I was thinking you'd put the biner block in the system, yes to prevent the EDK sliding up against the rapide, which I'm thinking is probably undesirable?

That seems to me to have the advantage that you wouldn't need to remove it for the last person, in order to pull the rope after they're down.

[canyonguru]

i have done pine creek 5 time and am heading up there in may. Everytime we doubled a 200 ft rope and just double stranded the rap. it works great everytime no slippage or anything. we pretty much double everything under 100ft. we run the rope through the rap ring equilize the rope and down we go that way we don't have to worrie about what side to pull. not sure if this helps any.

[Iceaxe]

Slippage was why I was thinking you'd put the biner block in the system, yes to prevent the EDK sliding up against the rapide, which I'm thinking is probably undesirable?

Take the biner block and put it in your pack. The knot against the rapide is no big deal. You should not get slippage unless someone is doing something very strange.

The major cause of slippage I know of is rappeling on two different diameter ropes because one rope feeds through the rappel device faster then the other. Even then we are usually only taking a few of inches and not several feet.

I'm sure their are other examples... but normally slippage is not an issue.

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

Oh I kind of read that wrong. If you have 2 100 footers then just double strand them. Or if you are worried about slippage you could do the stone knot on your two strands.

edit: here is the stone knot http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress/knots/stone/index.php

Also, word on the canyon floor is that the rappel is 10-15 feet shorter than previously, so about 90 feet, and less of a precise set.

Here in the colonies, we have these silly aluminum rappel rings that are about the same size as the knot, and the knot can get stuck in em. It would be unusual to see one of these in Pine Creek. So, just check that the knot will to get stuck inside the rapid link or whatever ring is on the last rappel.

Tom :moses:

[Cirrus2000]

If you're really worried about slippage, get paranoid like I do, and throw a knot on each end of the rope when you toss it down. (If I won't have a huge pile of leftover rope at the bottom of a rap, I always put on a knot. I get mocked; I brush 'em off. Too many reports of people rapping off the rope.) Of course, make sure you remove them before pulling the rope. :eek2:

Have a great trip!!!

[Iceaxe]

I always put on a knot. I get mocked; I brush 'em off. Too many reports of people rapping off the rope.

If you knew how many times I've seen the knot in the end of the rope get stuck and cause major problems from folks doing this.....

I've never heard of a canyoneer rapping off the end of his rope. I'd guess more a problem for climbers retreating from a multi pitch route.

I once rescued a guy doing the two stage big wall entrance in Englestead who had trapped himself. The rope streached as he neared the bottom of the rappel and the knot stuck in a crack. This created an automatic bottom belay. The guy (pretty much a noob) had no clue how, or gear with him, to escape the nice little trap he set for himself....

just sayin'.... pick your poison....

:popcorn:

[Cirrus2000]

I always put on a knot. I get mocked; I brush 'em off. Too many reports of people rapping off the rope.

If you knew how many times I've seen the knot in the end of the rope get stuck and cause major problems from folks doing this.....

I've never heard of a canyoneer rapping off the end of his rope. I'd guess more a problem for climbers retreating from a multi pitch route.

I once rescued a guy doing the two stage big wall entrance in Englestead who had trapped himself. The rope streached as he neared the bottom of the rappel and the knot stuck in a crack. This created an automatic bottom belay. The guy (pretty much a noob) had no clue how, or gear with him, to escape the nice little trap he set for himself....

just sayin'.... pick your poison....

:popcorn:

True enough. All my rappel experience (until recently) was rock climbing. Still...

[Jaxx]

Pine Creek is so busy that if the knot got stuck at the anchor or there was a problem pulling it there will be someone coming behind you within a few minutes anyway that could help you out.

When you set up the rap there will probably be people at the bottom that would double check for you that the ropes reached the bottom. I thing just tying the 2 100 and rapping double wouldn't cause any problems.

[Candace66]

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/dsc04434.jpg

As shown in this photo, what purpose is the biner on the loop? I understand it could be clipped to the anchor to add safety. But rigged as it is, does it serve any purpose?

[oldno7]

It makes a person, who is absolutely convinced that a figure 8 on a bight, can be passed through a rapide, "feel better"


Lots of unnecessary redundancy in that anchor and rigging. I love cleaning that rap station up, it's a constant gold mine of gear.

Please note--ALL the weight is on the lower glue in. BAD ANCHOR BUILDING SKILLS HERE.

[hank moon]

Please note--ALL the weight is on the lower glue in. BAD ANCHOR BUILDING SKILLS HERE.

My eyes (as well as my mind) are fading with age, but I see the possibility that the load is shared with the upper bolt as a strand of the loaded webbing goes off-frame toward the upper bolt.

Very cluttered anchor, regardless.

[ratagonia]

It makes a person, who is absolutely convinced that a figure 8 on a bight, can be passed through a rapide, "feel better"


Lots of unnecessary redundancy in that anchor and rigging. I love cleaning that rap station up, it's a constant gold mine of gear.

Please note--ALL the weight is on the lower glue in. BAD ANCHOR BUILDING SKILLS HERE.

And the color... :cry1:

Equalizing newish modern bolts is not real important. We put in two bolts for reliability issues, rather than strength problems. So the upper bolt backs up the glue-in bolt. Glue-in bolt likely good for around 8000 lbs, backup bolt good for about 5000 lbs - unless the guy in the boat is jump-rappelling on static ropes I think we will be OK.

Agreed - lots of trash and poor rigging at this anchor. Also, people tend to rig it substantially longer than it needs to be, which makes the start more difficult that it needs to be.

But to answer the original question:

Nothing wrong with installing a biner block and then rapping double strand. The only issue would be where the biner itself could get stuck on something during the pull - not an issue on this rappel. Installing a biner block eliminates problems of creep in one direction, but not the other.

The figure-8 clipped to the rope is a way of doing it that Petzl promotes. Word across the pond is that it is not SOP in Europe, but some people use it.

You never know the size of the rapid link on the bottom of this rap, so there is some concern that a knot-block would get jammed or pull through, and even that at times a biner block might pull through.

Black, tan or grey on the webbing, Pu-Lease!!!

Tom :moses:

[mcweyen]

Just curious, why does webbing color matter?

[ratagonia]

People go into the backcountry to experience nature.

Nylon webbing is not nature.

Human artifacts left behind disrupt the experience of being in the backcountry. While webbing and rings, etc. are trash, they are USEFUL trash, but still trash. I'm not saying you should not leave useful trash behind, but I do think you should minimize the amount and the visual impact of the trash you leave behind. So please use colors that blend into the environment. While red, yellow, blue, purple, bright orange etc. are natural colors for flowers in the backcountry, grey, black, brown and tan webbing blend into the environment where we leave stuff behind better than bright colors.

Thus the plea to leave mild colors, when you leave trash. And as little as possible.

Thanks.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

^^^ Concur with that.

Climbers, canyoneers...we aren't the only ones who recreate and/or see these anchors. Out of sight, out of mind. Hikers, bird watchers, tree huggers, snail darter lovers, land managers...they all see visually obtrusive anchors and some, frankly, see them as...well...obtrusive. If you don't see bolts, anchors...then...their impact is negligable.

[mcweyen]

makes sense to me

[dougr]

Climbers, canyoneers...we aren't the only ones who recreate and/or see these anchors. Out of sight, out of mind. Hikers, bird watchers, tree huggers, snail darter lovers, land managers...they all see visually obtrusive anchors and some, frankly, see them as...well...obtrusive.

Honestly I've never quite understood this claim. I see very few anchors from positions where foot traffic would be remotely close to canyoneering routes. In all of Zion, for example, is there a single bolt or webbing cluster seen anywhere from regular pedestrian go abouts? Off trail in the Escalante region, even then, where? If someone is bird watching or hiking anywhere near where a drop would be, I don't think they'd be hiking near where a drop would be.

Sport climbing routes in a park, different story. But for canyoneering, I don't buy the sentiment.

[stefan]

Honestly I've never quite understood this claim. I see very few anchors from positions where foot traffic would be remotely close to canyoneering routes. In all of Zion, for example, is there a single bolt or webbing cluster seen anywhere from regular pedestrian go abouts? Off trail in the Escalante region, even then, where? If someone is bird watching or hiking anywhere near where a drop would be, I don't think they'd be hiking near where a drop would be.


south fork of choprock/kaleidoscope, the final anchor can be clearly seen

[CarpeyBiggs]

there are a few in the grand canyon - olo, deer creek, garden creek, fern glen, etc... all the anchors at the final drops, (in some cases first drops) can be seen from areas that get a lot of traffic (because of river trips mainly). that's the primary reason why the park requires black webbing only.

[Scott P]

In all of Zion, for example, is there a single bolt or webbing cluster seen anywhere from regular pedestrian go abouts?


Yes. Beartrap Falls is one that comes to mind. Not sure what is there currently, but in the past you could see several slings from the bottom. Subway usually has one too.



Off trail in the Escalante region, even then, where?

South Fork Choprock comes to mind. Steve Allen mentions this in his book.