View Full Version : Any Lawyers in here?
I need to ask a legal question, involving damage to my car, by a local auto repair shop. It is fairly minor damage, but it is a big issue to me.
Not necessarily looking for free legal advice, just maybe some pointers in the right direction.
I can post my story too, if anyone else wants to pipe in.
Some will be interested in this..shoot :nod:
I'm trying to pad my post count. Post your story so I can pipe in! :haha:
Okay, here is a quick run down of my problem.
I have been saving some cash for the past year and a half, to get the car I wanted. This is just my weekend toy, not a daily driver. It is a 2004 Honda S2000. I bought it for the fact that it has 12k miles, and is dang near show room condition. I figured if I am going to save, I will get the car I want. Here is a picture of how it sits.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q30/kbruington/s2000/mine2.jpg
Anyways, my car needed Safety and Emissions. I had heard good things about Dave's Complete Auto Service (http://www.davescompleteauto.com/home.nxg), in Centerville. Yesterday, I wake up, and figure it would be the best day do get this done, as the weather was somewhat decent. I drive from my house in Farmington, to the DMV which is about 2 miles away. From there I drive to Daves, which is about 5 miles away. I get the inspection done, drive back to the DMV, then home. I proceed to wash and wax the car, planning on putting it away for the winter.
While waxing the front bumper, I see this on the front lower lip:
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q30/kbruington/misc/002.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q30/kbruington/misc/003.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q30/kbruington/misc/004.jpg
I flip out, for one, this is a BRAND NEW lip from the Honda Dealership that I ordered and put on not two weeks ago. Since then, the car has had maybe 50 miles put on it. Second, I know for a fact I did not ding it, because something like that I definitely would have felt, or heard. The last time I drove the car, I overfilled the fuel, spilling down the side. I promptly went home, and washed the car. If this was there before, I would have seen it. Also, there is obviously no road rash, but there is clearly red paint.
So, I stop by the shop this afternoon, and try to tactfully ask about this, first to Dave (the owner) and then the tech as he walked in. Both pretty much went on the defensive, and said it would have been brought up if they did it. They then asked to see the car, which I was not driving due to the crappy weather. I pretty much figured both would happen. I told them I would be back with the car, when the weather clears.
On the short drive home, I figured I better jump on this now while it is fresh. I really hated this option, as it was raining again when I made it home, and I vowed to never drive my car in inclement weather.
Anyways, I make it back to the shop, and Dave comes out to look at it. Says that it cannot be determined if they did it or not, but they have been in business for 20 years, and the tech has been there for 15. If the tech did it, he would have said something. Understandable, I say. But we all are human, shit happens that we may not know about. He gets on the ground and looks at it briefly, still saying they didn't do it. I ask them if their lift was red, because you can obviously see the red scuffed paint mixed in with the damage. He said they have blue and red, and he was not sure which one would have been used. I mentioned again to have the tech take a look at it, to provide some answers.
Dave then says he will pay to have it "repaired" at his body shop. I say that it will not be put back in the condition that I brought it here. He then mentions they are good at their jobs, and it won't be perfect, but with a little putty it will look fine.
Now, I mentioned that to me, my car is damn near perfect, and I want to keep it that way. Then he goes on about owning Ferrari's GTR's, yadda yadda, as if my cheap ass Honda should not be considered perfect. Now, if I did the damage turning some curves up east canyon, I would kick myself for it, but I would accept it. I would like them to fix the issue, and correct my car to how it was. I do not feel like having my new lip smeared with bondo, to half ass correct the problem they caused.
Dave then said that he will not replace it, but only fix it. If that is not what I want, then he cannot help me. Had I went over the car with this much detail before I left the parking lot, he said it would have been different. Shame on me I said for trusting them.
I explained again that I wanted them to replace the damaged item, not try to cover it up. Again he said no way, and to call them if I changed my mind.
So, my questions here are:
1- Looking at the pictures, what are you able to make of them?
2- Would you be fine accepting a cover up repair?
3- Would you back down from your stand?
In my opinion, the first ding occurred while pulling the car up the ramps. The bottom damaged occurred while backing down the ramps.
I guess my "legal" question, is how would small claims court look at this? I hate to bring it to that, but I want my stuff put back to the way it was, not covered up.
Get it in writing that they would "fix" it, i.e the materials they would use. Why would they even offer to "fix" the problem, if they never caused the problem?
What color are the ramps? Are the ramps, red? If they are, get a pic of their ramps. The paint transfer is key, I'm highly doubting you guys have red curbs in Utah.
It would be interesting how a lawyer would view this. But, I still think that paint transfer is the key. If they have something red low enough to the ground that can cause that damage, it makes it easy. I'm sure your local TV news media may hop onto your cause, bad press is never good for a popular business.
Get it in writing that they would "fix" it, i.e the materials they would use. Why would they even offer to "fix" the problem, if they never caused the problem?
What color are the ramps? Are the ramps, red? If they are, get a pic of their ramps. The paint transfer is key, I'm highly doubting you guys have red curbs in Utah.
Yeah, I asked him if they had red ramps. He said they have red and blue, and he doesn't know which one the tech would have pulled the car onto. I then tried to get Dave to have the tech come out front, but it wasn't going to happen.
He said they have red and blue, and he doesn't know which one the tech would have pulled the car onto. I then tried to get Dave to have the tech come out front, but it wasn't going to happen.
It obviously was the red one, is there anyway you can get a pic of the ramp? If you make a police report, when they go and talk with the owner, they can document if they do or do not have red ramps, lifts, etc. If you cannot get a pic of the work area, maybe someone else can for ya. Right now I would start looking into some different avenues and refrain from anymore real contact with that business. If they feel something bad maybe about to happen, they could do things like paint over the ramps. Somethings like Better Business Bureau, police, news, lawyer...You'll get some direction. Damage is damage under the care of a business. I don't think it is something you should let it go.
Just checked the BBB report on them. Looks like 14 complaints over a period of time, for various things. All had been replied to by the shop.
Think its worth filing a complaint through them?
I'm not even sure how to get in for some pictures. I would have to get creative on that one.
I guess I will talk to some police acquaintances, and see if they think I could get a police report on that.
Thanks for the other point of views. I work hard for my things, and I feel he is blowing me off like I am some punk kid with a riced out civic.
Think its worth filing a complaint through them?
I'm not even sure how to get in for some pictures. I would have to get creative on that one.
I guess I will talk to some police acquaintances, and see if they think I could get a police report on that.
Thanks for the other point of views. I work hard for my things, and I feel he is blowing me off like I am some punk kid with a riced out civic.
I believe that could be one step, in a step of many. I would also ask them what else should be done.
Yes, creativity...The shop does not know your friends :haha: And a camera phone snapping pics from the hip can do wonders :mrgreen:
I believe a police report is also a step. Before you wrap up your complaint, ask them if they could see what color the ramps are and if they would kindly include that in the report.
And because you've worked hard for your things, things like this shouldn't be blown off.
When did this happen? Wonder if it would be worth dumpster diving to see if your broken off piece could be found :mrgreen: Pics of that in there would be great and then having the piece :popcorn:
KapitanSparrow
11-05-2008, 06:33 AM
JP is very emotional when it comes to vehicles :roflol:
No, I see where he's coming from. Especially will repair it, not fix it...they damn right well know they caused the damage. I'm willing to bet they were thinking, "Who is gonna see that damage down there." :nod: Stand up for your mistakes.
Mooseman70
11-05-2008, 08:01 AM
Exactly, JP. DO THE RIGHT THING!
shlingdawg
11-05-2008, 08:10 AM
I'm no lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
I've heard not-so-good things about Dave's over the years. I always took my cars to Haugen's in Farmington. They do top notch work and I've never heard of 1 bad experience. It's a dive when you look at the place, but I gotta give them props for taking care of me for over 15 years.
I back JP - people need to man up to their mistakes. But sadly, we live in a chickenshit society.
accadacca
11-05-2008, 12:30 PM
I feel he is blowing me off like I am some punk kid with a riced out civic.
:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:
Just made it back from out of state.
Thanks for the other views on this. Gives me something to work on come Monday.
Keep us posted, good luck :2thumbs:
Update:
I called and asked about a police report, and was pretty much told something like that is really not what a police report is for. Oh well.
I did file a complaint with the BBB, so I will wait and see how that turns out. I also contacted Dave again, both via phone and email. In the email I sent a handful of pictures, clearly showing the red scuffed paint.
kris thanks for your pics and email. tyson was correct in stating that it could be a possibility that it could have rubbed when being pulled onto the lift. however that was not an admission of fault. as i stated before we will be happy to repair the item in question. but replacement for a new part is not within our budget. if you would like us to repair the damaged item as a courtesy to you please let us know. thanks again for your time.
Not sure if I am really going to get anywhere with this. The small claims route has been brought up, but first, I am not sure how to proceed with a business that is a Corporation, second is it really worth the time...
Kent K25
11-11-2008, 11:18 AM
I feel your pain, and this is coming from a guy who doesn't own any car as nice as a Honda S2000. I baby my wife's car and it's a Mazda Protege 5. Sporty, but far from anything remotely special.
How much would the complete bumper replacement be?
I don't really have any advice on small claims court etc...but I, like you, wouldn't accept the crappy bondo patch job. As a last resort if you give up on other options you could at least ask them to pay you the amount their repairs would cost and put it towards a new bumper.
Stuff like this sucks, keep us up to date.
FYI, always been a fan of S2000's, I worked at a Honda Dealer in California when they were released. Great vehicle.
The replacement is $390 with shipping for a new painted piece from the dealer.
Wild One
11-11-2008, 12:18 PM
I used to work in a position of responding to BBB complaints for the Bank I worked for at the time. It was a National Bank with millions of customers, so naturally we had daily complaints filed through the BBB.
When it comes down to it, the BBB cannot enforce anything and a lot of business really don't give a crap what the BBB says or what the complaints are. In my case, I would resolve/respond to a complaint from the BBB in the same way I'd respond to a complaint addressed to a manager or president of the bank (not as good as you might think here).
I like JP's idea of going to a local news station. If we got anything (even just a letter) from a news station, the problem was fixed right now and the customer got WHATEVER they wanted.
Even if the news stations doesn't run a story, they'll always send a letter to the business. If the prob isn't resolved satisfactorily for the customer, it will usually result in an interview/phone call from the station and further action.
Its a free, effective way to get things done.
Deathcricket
11-11-2008, 12:25 PM
LOL $390 and he's bitching about it?
I think you have an excellent case. I would get some pictures of your car right in front of the lift and show exactly where the forks would hit if they lifted it. Maybe get a measurement of the distance between the 2 cracks and the distance between the lifts. Another pick of the red lift and there could be no arguing IMO. Take his ass to small claims court and tack on a little extra for inconvenience, your time off work, his being a jerk, etc.
Not sure if it's helpful. But I worked at a place where a customer tipped over a large birdcage (6 foot) while trying to look at the price tag underneath it. The birdcage tipped over and hit another customers car. Put a nice 2 inch scratch in it. So the damage was caused by one customer to another customers car. And our company still had to pay for it. Something along the lines of "we should have bolted the birdcage down so customers couldn't turn it over to look underneath".
Rev. Coyote
11-11-2008, 01:46 PM
See if you can somehow get a scraping of the red paint from the ramp and have it compared to the paint on your car. Or at least tell Dave you're having this done and see how he responds. Also, most local teevee news stations have a "call us if you get screwed team," that will intervene in stuff like this. Shake his ass up!
See if you can somehow get a scraping of the red paint from the ramp and have it compared to the paint on your car. Or at least tell Dave you're having this done and see how he responds. Also, most local teevee news stations have a "call us if you get screwed team," that will intervene in stuff like this. Shake his ass up!
Ha, that's a good one there. This might warrant a little more searching on google...
I did email on of our local stations that has a guy that does this. He must not be interested, as I have not heard anything since last week.
apcronnelly
11-12-2008, 03:24 PM
Call 2news and "Get Gephardt". Every time they do a piece on shady deals, the business will apoligize and the complainant will get what they were originally asking for. Its an option. Like someone mentioned before, Daves wont want bad press.
shlingdawg
11-12-2008, 05:29 PM
I think you should put a flaming bag of poo on the business doorstep. :nod:
Call 2news and "Get Gephardt". Every time they do a piece on shady deals, the business will apoligize and the complainant will get what they were originally asking for. Its an option. Like someone mentioned before, Daves wont want bad press.
Yeah, I did last week, never even had a return email.
Anyways, I received a call from Dave today. He said he had my BBB complaint, and had some questions. He asked if this piece was aftermarket, as he was having trouble getting the dealer to find the item. He then asked how long I had the car. I explained for maybe three weeks, and that I ordered this part shortly after, and had just barely put it on. Same story that I had been telling him before. Anyways, I said I will get the dealer part number for him. I tracked it down, called them back, and left a message with the part number. Maybe I will get lucky and he will order me a new one....
Still not going to get my hopes up yet.
Kent K25
11-12-2008, 06:40 PM
Oooooooh good luck!
Felicia
11-12-2008, 07:49 PM
Some information/questions that may help you make your decisions as to how to handle this situation:
Link to a small claims court: http://www.ci.slc.ut.us/courts/small_claims/small.htm
Look up your local courthouse if this is not the right court. I'm not familiar with Utah courts.
Small Claims Court is generally considered a court of equity as well as a court of law. This generally means that the rules of evidence are softened in order to get to the root of the issue. A police report is considered a hearsay document and is never accepted by the court unless the officer is present to testify. The office may appear if properly subpoenaed.
Question: Are you asking for damages (the cost to have it repaired) or specific performance (I want you to fix it)?
Generally the court cannot/is unwilling to order specific performance.
Do you really want the guy to fix the damage when he admits that he does not know/comfortable in completing the repair? Can he fix it? Do you prefer to get it fixed properly by the right person and then seek monetary damages from Dave?
Get it fixed, send dave a demand for reimbursement letter iterating that if not paid in xxx amount of time, you will file a claim based on the following: ie - same paint color, email that says it could have happened, we do not know how to fix, etc ?? Tell him you will prevail and it will cost him more to cover the legal costs, time etc.???
Keep your email - print hard copies for your file. Organize your notes and document. Send Dave an email with the info - did Dave really get your telephone message? Document - document - document.
I hope it all works out for you - Good Luck.
accadacca
11-13-2008, 05:54 PM
Shake his ass up!
:lol8:
Well, kind of what I expected. Here was his BBB response.
DAVE'S AUTO IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR LOSS OR DAMAGE TO VEHICLES. THE CUSTOMER SIGNS A RELEASE WAVIER WHEN THEY ALOW US TO WORK ON THE CAR.WE DID NOT DAMAGE CUSTOMERS CAR. HOWEVER WE WOULD BE PLEASED TO HAVE THE SLIGHT SCUFF MARK REPAIRED AND PAINTED, AT NO COST TO THE CUSTOMER. THANKS DAVE
Here is my response back.
First off, it is not a slight scuff mark, and cannot be repaired to new condition. I have attached pictures showing the damage. Second, I would like to see this waiver that I apparently signed. The only thing I signed was the invoice, which says:
"I authorized the above repair work to be done along with the necessary material. I was given this quote and I authorize it before work was performed. I hereby waive return of old parts. Dave's Complete Auto does not waive it's mechanics lien rights and repossession authority until funds and payment have been cleared. Attorney fee's and court costs are the sole responsibility of the car owner. All labor is covered by a 3 month 4,000 mile warranty whichever comes first. Parts Warranty is according to Manufacturers' representation."
So, where does it say anything that I am fine with any damage you do to my car?
So, pretty much I am going to get nowhere, unless I try for small claims. Then I need to outweigh if the time and effort is really worth $400.
Sombeech
11-14-2008, 08:28 AM
Well, kind of what I expected. Here was his BBB response.
DAVE'S AUTO IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR LOSS OR DAMAGE TO VEHICLES. THE CUSTOMER SIGNS A RELEASE WAVIER WHEN THEY ALOW US TO WORK ON THE CAR.WE DID NOT DAMAGE CUSTOMERS CAR. HOWEVER WE WOULD BE PLEASED TO HAVE THE SLIGHT SCUFF MARK REPAIRED AND PAINTED, AT NO COST TO THE CUSTOMER. THANKS DAVE
Here is my response back.
First off, it is not a slight scuff mark, and cannot be repaired to new condition. I have attached pictures showing the damage. Second, I would like to see this waiver that I apparently signed. The only thing I signed was the invoice, which says:
"I authorized the above repair work to be done along with the necessary material. I was given this quote and I authorize it before work was performed. I hereby waive return of old parts. Dave's Complete Auto does not waive it's mechanics lien rights and repossession authority until funds and payment have been cleared. Attorney fee's and court costs are the sole responsibility of the car owner. All labor is covered by a 3 month 4,000 mile warranty whichever comes first. Parts Warranty is according to Manufacturers' representation."
So, where does it say anything that I am fine with any damage you do to my car?
So, pretty much I am going to get nowhere, unless I try for small claims. Then I need to outweigh if the time and effort is really worth $400.
Nah, I still think you have something there. Don't give up.
Wild One
11-14-2008, 11:58 AM
If that is truly the only thing you signed and nowhere does it say anything regarding what he claims on his "waiver" then I would definitely not leave it alone.
Have you contacted the Utah State Attorney General's Consumer Protection Division. It should work in roughly the same way as filing a BBB complaint, but they take things a little more seriously and most people/business will take something from an AG's office a little more seriously. No, the AG's office cannot legally represent you or give you any legal advice, but they will usually contact the business on your behalf.
Here's a link that might help you there http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/from_crime.html
Most of my experience here is with Fraud, but there might be something that they could do.
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