Another Orderville TR - Oct 18, 2008

[Cirrus2000]

Yet another Orderville Trip Report. A little text. More photos.

Orderville: Very pretty. Rather uneventful. Dare I say it? Kind of boring. I was hoping for just a little more of a technical nature. Still, very pretty - especially with the autumn colours.

Went with a couple of fellows I know from up here in Vancouver, through the British Columbia Mountaineering Club. We met up in Red Rocks, and came to Zion for a couple of days together.

Peter had dry pants, I had a wetsuit, Francis had neither, and was hoping to stay as dry as possible. He did fine.

When we got to the last real obstacle, it looked like it would be necessary to get in pretty deep. Took a little trail up and left (LDC) and found a tree with webbing & quick link. Rapped down. Voila! No deeper than just below gasping height.


Francis and Peter descending into the upper canyon.
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_1983.jpg

http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_1985.jpg

http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2000.jpg

The colours were gorgeous!
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2005.jpg

Francis walked ahead for a bit, but waited below the first "rap" (downclimb)
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2008.jpg

Peter does a little downclimbing on some convenient wood
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2011.jpg

http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2018.jpg

http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2036.jpg

A little bit of wading
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2041.jpg

Peter preventing disaster at The Guillotine
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2053.jpg

Where we got wet to just below gasping height
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2058.jpg

More wading
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2067.jpg

http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2085.jpg

http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2088.jpg

Francis (mid photo) is an island of calm in a sea of activity, waiting for Peter to rap down.
This is where we began to meet up with people coming up from the Narrows.
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2093.jpg

http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2100.jpg

Bypassing Veiled Falls
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2105.jpg

Veiled Falls
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2111.jpg

Two possibilities:
1. "That's where we came from!" or
2. "Look at the tourists!"
http://kev.cirruswebsolutions.ca/uutah/orderville/img_2123.jpg

Hit the trail at 11:00 (nice alpine start!) and reached the Balcony at 4:50

Francis drove me back up to the trailhead to get my Jeep, and we arrived just as full night fell. There had been a group of younger guys who had started just after us (When we got going, they said they'd see us shortly. I think they expected to whoop these old-timers hobbling along. Never saw them the rest of the hike.) When we got to the trailhead, their truck was still there. All the way out, we expected to see them coming along the road the other way - never did. When we got back to ZAC to meet Peter, the guys were hanging around there. They had taken longer to get through than they had expected, and their ride, waiting in town, had bailed on them. They were stranded, but had a call in to some relatives nearby. One way or another, they would at least have a place to crash.

Unfortunately, with the late shuttle, we were unable to meet with Win and Yo and friends for dinner. We probably would have smelled bad, anyway!

[Felicia]

Looks like you had a great day! The fall colours are beautiful. You certianly are having a wonderful trip. :2thumbs:

[Deathcricket]

Boring??? I take back everything nice I said about you (just kidding emoticon). That's one of my favorite hikes in Zion. Although I do agree it's a hike, not really canyoneering. We didn't even take a rope last time we did it.

If you wanted more of challenge, next time you visit I'll take you through Englestead. It's not hardcore like some people in here do, but there are a couple rappels with serious "pucker factor", one over 260ish ft, and you still get to exit through the prettiest parts of Orderville. Send me a PM next time your down in my area bro.
:2thumbs:

Oh and your story cracked me up. We were going through Subway and resting from the heat and this "old couple" 60+ comes by with 2 kids like 7 and 10. They stop and ask us if this is the right direction since the navigation at the top is pretty tricky before you hit the slot. Then they ask about ropes. We only carry a 30 footer through and it is possible without but a little tricky. But we tell them you need at least a 50 foot rope. Expecially for 2 senior citizens, one who was walking with a slight limp and cane, and 2 small children. Always need a little helping hand IMO. So we continue to rest and they take off ahead. We tell them if they get stuck we'll help them out no biggie. So we rested another 5 mins and figured we would catch right up with them and they would lag us behind all day being unprepared. We even joked about it.

Well, we never saw them again. They smoked us down the canyon, never got stuck, nothing. 2 senior citizens and 2 small children. I was amazed.

[Cirrus2000]

Boring??? I take back everything nice I said about you (just kidding emoticon). That's one of my favorite hikes in Zion. Although I do agree it's a hike, not really canyoneering. We didn't even take a rope last time we did it.

If you wanted more of challenge, ...
Well, boring is a little harsh. But yeah, I kept hoping for a little spicier. Just a little. Still, it was beautiful, and I'm sure I'll do it again.

Next time - you're on! :five:

[Scott Card]

.

Well, we never saw them again. They smoked us down the canyon, never got stuck, nothing. 2 senior citizens and 2 small children. I was amazed. Did you find the bodies? (Sorry, couldn't resist) Englestead is a great canyon. Agreed that first rap is nothing to be trifled with. I have never done the upper part of Orderville but love the part from Englestead down.

As for the apologetic tone in your intro, I have been thinking about that lately. I hope people will still post even though some may have been in the canyon before. Some get discourged from posting because the canyon is a trade route and well, "everyone" has done it or I'll look stupid by getting excited about such an "easy" or well known canyon. Have some mercy on us poor desk jockeys. I enjoy trip reports even though I may have read a dozen about the same canyon before. I love to read the experience and sense what you were going through. Many of us who have been doing this for some time (not that long for me) have had many of the same experiences, made the same mistakes and enjoy reliving the fun. Please don't ever be afraid or discouraged to post a trip report. :2thumbs:

[Deathcricket]

Oh yeah totally agreed! I'm a big noob, but there are a couple like orderville I have done like 6 or 7 times and I still really enjoy hearing about other people's experiences.

Like in the one pick that says "bypassing the veiled falls" we were standing in that exact same spot and some tourist lady was stuck on the moki steps right there. She looked like she was going to slip (you know that involuntary leg shake) so I jumped into the veiled falls to prop up a log to help her. Probably that same log you see in the pic. But all she kept yelling at me was "stop looking at my ass you pervert". At the time I was shocked at her tone and wondering how I offended her, but now I can laugh. Good to know she's not still there to this day.

Anyways, just saying keep posting. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes I don't post Subway and Orderville ones because I fear the helmet police too. :P I need to get over that.

Sorry I'm rambling today. Too much Mountain Dew I tell ya!


P.S. We actually considered they might be lost/dead, but the footprints the gentleman left with his cane were very informative. We think alike, you and I.
:2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Sometimes I don't post Subway and Orderville ones because I fear the helmet police too. :P I need to get over that.



EZ - start wearing a helmet. $ 65.90

http://tinyurl.com/5dgo8b

Tom

[Cirrus2000]

Sometimes I don't post Subway and Orderville ones because I fear the helmet police too. :P I need to get over that.



EZ - start wearing a helmet. $ 65.90

http://tinyurl.com/5dgo8b

Tom
By the way, there is no chance that I would ever wear a helmet doing Orderville. I didn't wear one in Keyhole, but probably should have if only to set a good example for the couple from NJ that I ran across. (Who were wearing their rental helmets and Imlay Canyon Gear packs, by the way :2thumbs: ) I am a helmet rogue, I guess.

In Orderville, I consider the risk of a head injury to be slightly higher than that involved in walking down the sidewalk. Let's call it roughly equivalent to walking down a busy sidewalk.

In Keyhole, I consider the risk of a head injury to be approximately equal to the risk when walking on a balance beam... down a busy sidewalk.

So - would I wear a helmet to walk on a balance beam on a busy sidewalk?

I guess I'm downplaying the risk - I suppose there is always the chance of taking a tumble from one of the very short raps in Keyhole.

Anyway, at the risk of inciting renewed helmet controversy, I have one. I took it with me on my road trip. I use it. Just not always.

[ratagonia]

In Orderville, I consider the risk of a head injury to be slightly higher than that involved in walking down the sidewalk. Let's call it roughly equivalent to walking down a busy sidewalk.

I guess I'm downplaying the risk - I suppose there is always the chance of taking a tumble from one of the very short raps in Keyhole.

Anyway, at the risk of inciting renewed helmet controversy, I have one. I took it with me on my road trip. I use it. Just not always.

You got a wife? and kids? Wearing a helmet is not for you, it is for the people who have to decide whether to pull the tubes and turn the machine off. Because you were too inconsiderate to wear a helmet... because it was too much trouble,... or something.

The risk in Orderville is only a little bit about slipping and hitting your head. It is mostly about walking underneath 200-600' rock walls on both sides for several hours. Natural rock walls, the kind that rocks fall off of.

Keyhole - that first rappel - slip a little, swing sideways, whack your head into the wall, fall into the pool and drown. You would forever be known as the guy who drowned in Keyhole - you want that???? And you off by yourself. Thought you were old enough to not think yourself immortal, Kev!

I'm not clear on what the downside of wearing a helmet is? You might run into a cute girl who thinks you look dorky? Too hot and uncomfortable (get a new model, they are much better)? Too much weight? Doesn't match your outfit? What????

OK, OK - I'm a little worked up. Mr. Kelsey apparantly thinks that doing the high-risk King Mesa canyons with a helmet is too safe - just not sporting or something. Even after cracking his head open. And he's taking people I formerly considered intelligent like Ryan Cornia along with him. I just don't get it... but maybe at age 51 I'm starting to feel the closeness of "the end", and life is too much fun - I want more - more years, and not the kind hooked up to tubes or teetering around an old-age home. And my knees hurt... and my back hurts... where's my medication? Nurse! NURSE!

(help me down from this soapbox, sonny....) :moses:

Tom

[Scott Card]

Sometimes I don't post Subway and Orderville ones because I fear the helmet police too. :P I need to get over that.



EZ - start wearing a helmet. $ 65.90

http://tinyurl.com/5dgo8b

Tom
By the way, there is no chance that I would ever wear a helmet doing Orderville. I didn't wear one in Keyhole, but probably should have if only to set a good example for the couple from NJ that I ran across. (Who were wearing their rental helmets and Imlay Canyon Gear packs, by the way :2thumbs: ) I am a helmet rogue, I guess.

In Orderville, I consider the risk of a head injury to be slightly higher than that involved in walking down the sidewalk. Let's call it roughly equivalent to walking down a busy sidewalk.

In Keyhole, I consider the risk of a head injury to be approximately equal to the risk when walking on a balance beam... down a busy sidewalk.

So - would I wear a helmet to walk on a balance beam on a busy sidewalk?

I guess I'm downplaying the risk - I suppose there is always the chance of taking a tumble from one of the very short raps in Keyhole.

Anyway, at the risk of inciting renewed helmet controversy, I have one. I took it with me on my road trip. I use it. Just not always. I had a bad feeling about this comment... :lol8:

[Cirrus2000]

Aw, it's all very true. Don't get off your soapbox, Tom. You're correct. Especially about Keyhole. (I still have a bit of a hard time with something like Orderville. Gonna have to work a little harder to convince me there. Sure stuff could come tumbling off from above, but the same is true of walking down a city street. But don't stop trying.)

And I think I look dead sexy in a helmet - no one can tell me different! Especially in a Zappa t-shirt...

[Randi]

Yet another Orderville Trip Report. A little text. More photos.

Orderville: Very pretty. Rather uneventful. Dare I say it? Kind of boring. I was hoping for just a little more of a technical nature. Still, very pretty - especially with the autumn colours.

Unfortunately, with the late shuttle, we were unable to meet with Win and Yo and friends for dinner. We probably would have smelled bad, anyway!

Nice TR and photos! I've done Orderville once as part of an Englestead/Orderville combo. I guess that's just lower Orderville then. It was quite technical in an unexpected way when we went through as the entire canyon was full of quicksand! I'd never experienced quicksand before and thought it was a ton of fun! :mrgreen:

Your pix are great Kev. I Love the fall colors of course, but I think this one is especially pretty!

And I was really bummed that we didn't get the chance to meet up at least for dinner with you guys (and Win too). Hopefully, Karma will work in our favor next time!

[Cirrus2000]

Your pix are great Kev. I Love the fall colors of course, but I think this one is especially pretty!
Thanks Randi!

I tried about 5 shots at that spot, trying to get it just right. It was incredible, the wet wall looked just like gold. Francis pointed it out, and it was really beautiful. You can't totally get it across in a photo, but finally it turned out fairly well.

I think that is one of the most beautiful spots in the canyon, anyway, and the lighting just added to it. :2thumbs:

[trackrunner]

In Orderville, I consider the risk of a head injury to be slightly higher than that involved in walking down the sidewalk. Let's call it roughly equivalent to walking down a busy sidewalk.

What you don't wear a helmet walking on a down-town side walk with all those tall buildings. :ne_nau: People don't huck nasty stuff down on you :ne_nau: Am I the only one that needs a helmet in the city :ne_nau:

[trackrunner]

I've done Orderville once as part of an Englestead/Orderville combo.

I've done full Orderville once and Englestead up Orderville once. Englestead comes in about 10 minutes below the first obstacle/rappel in Orderville. IMO this upper portion of the canyon is ugly/not fun. Exept when fall colors are out, then it's amazing. I must be the only person in the world that didn't like full Orderville. This might be because we got our SUV axels barried in the soft mud driving down to the lower trailhead of Orderville and spent over an hour trying to get it unstuck. The lower portions down by the Narrows though are amazing. But I think it would have been better just the lower portions so next time I do Englstead I will exit down Orderville and hit the best parts of that canyon.

Some pics from October 2007 trip through Englstead and up Orderville.

Hiking up Orderville
http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/img_2623.jpg
Juction of Orderville & Englstead
http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/img_2611.jpg
One of my all time favorite shots in Upper Orderville, lighting was just right
http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/img_2616_colors.jpg

[ratagonia]

Aw, it's all very true. Don't get off your soapbox, Tom. You're correct. Especially about Keyhole. (I still have a bit of a hard time with something like Orderville. Gonna have to work a little harder to convince me there. Sure stuff could come tumbling off from above, but the same is true of walking down a city street. But don't stop trying.)

And I think I look dead sexy in a helmet - no one can tell me different! Especially in a Zappa t-shirt...

Check these incidents out:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/28504

That tree in Orderville fell 600 feet. Direct hit = dead. Glancing blow without helmet = dead or veggy. Glancing blow with helmet = scary and funny.

Stuff rarely falls off buildings in the big city. Because everyone knows it is dangerous, and they work hard to avoid it.

T

[northernoutpost]

I can attest to Kevin wearing a helmet in the city-usually at BCMC meetings where mass chair throwing normally breaks out!

Other than that, I'll side with the apparently decrepit Emperor in the sense that (for me at least), it's not just the stuff falling off the walls, rather it's the protruding bits of wall that impact ones head while gawking at the scenery. I've been knocked on my a$$ a few times that way. Yeah, you'd normally only end up unconscious, but it's hardly advantageous in the backcountry.

[Cirrus2000]

I can attest to Kevin wearing a helmet in the city-usually at BCMC meetings where mass chair throwing normally breaks out!
And elbow and knee pads, for the slam dancing. :haha:

[Bo_Beck]

Aw, it's all very true. Don't get off your soapbox, Tom. You're correct. Especially about Keyhole. (I still have a bit of a hard time with something like Orderville. Gonna have to work a little harder to convince me there. Sure stuff could come tumbling off from above, but the same is true of walking down a city street. But don't stop trying.)

And I think I look dead sexy in a helmet - no one can tell me different! Especially in a Zappa t-shirt...

Check these incidents out:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/28504

That tree in Orderville fell 600 feet. Direct hit = dead. Glancing blow without helmet = dead or veggy. Glancing blow with helmet = scary and funny.

Stuff rarely falls off buildings in the big city. Because everyone knows it is dangerous, and they work hard to avoid it.

T

After some years of bigwalling (always have worn a helmet), SAR on the Zion National Park Team (always wear a helmet), kayaking (always wear a helmet), sport and trad climbing, "canyoneering", and peakbagging (never wear a helmet)......I have become somewhat of a "convert" these days............

My last event in Deep Creek after "Doing the inadvertent waterfall plunge" has "KNOCKED" some sense into me literally! Had I not had on a helmet, I would not be here typing this rant I am sure! The short fall cut my head open and left a golf ball size knot on my head UNDER THE HELMET! GEEZE...I can only think what it would have been like without a helmet?

I own 2 helmets...A Petzl Ecrin Roc and a BD Half Dome.....I'm quite certain that they will get a lot more and diverse use in the future! Now I just need to figure out how to protect the rest of my body?

2 months away from being able to test out my "New Rotator Cuff"....Yee Haw! :2thumbs:

[Felicia]

Wearing a helmet is easy - peer pressure is not. :ne_nau:

[Brian in SLC]

I'll admit I don't always wear a helmet for high angle sports (canyons, climbing). Usually because I don't find them that comfortable and I get overheated easily, and, frankly, 'cause I prefer not to as my "experience" seems nicer without one (similar I suppose to Chouinard's reasons, if you've seen those).

That said, recently, I wasn't wearing mine but had it with me climbing in Red Rocks. In the sun, too hot, I clipped it to my harness. Once I got into the shade and a nice belay stance, I put it on. Partner led through, got up 60 or so feet, and promptly blew a hand and foot hold off at the same time, and came tumbling down. She always wears a helmit, but, the fall was short-ish (15 feet or so) and thank goodness she'd clipped some old tat on the route which kept her from weighting a very poor gear placement which would have blown, and taking a huge 100 foot plus fall. Anyhoo, the holds she popped off came rocketing down and the largest one clocked me right in the noggin', makin' a nice dent in the plastic. Pretty inconsequental, but, I kinda wonder if I hadn't had a helmet on, and I'd been knocked for a loop, if I really would have maintained her belay. I'd kinda think so, but...risk was there for sure. What if what if what if...and on and on.

Sure enough, next time out, my helmet protected the contents of my pack nicely while I climbed, as usual. I just prefer not to wear one some times. Personal choice, like so many other things. It's more important for me to not fall than wear a helmet and I find myself much more aware of my surroundings (and enjoying them) without one. Along with a solo climb every now and again, sure, risk is there, but...

Was a bunch of us climbing. My bet is the "average" experience in the group was no less than 30 years per. Was interersting who was wearing a helmet and who wasn't. Subject was never brought up but it was noticeable to me. 2 out of 6 sportin' helmets. Not much rhyme or reason demographic wise. Interesting.

Good on folks for wearing them.

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

I can attest to Kevin wearing a helmet in the city

Or not...

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/klimbingkevin_.jpg

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

I'll admit I don't always wear a helmet for high angle sports (canyons, climbing). Usually because I don't find them that comfortable and I get overheated easily, and, frankly, 'cause I prefer not to as my "experience" seems nicer without one (similar I suppose to Chouinard's reasons, if you've seen those).

-Brian in SLC

I do have the advantage. My haircut of choice (um, God's choice) means I gotta cover my head with something. The new helmets (Petzl Elios, for instance) are cut to not infringe on your peripheral vision. Maybe not as comfortable as nothing, but... I'm looking forward to the new model which should be a little cooler.

Tom

[Sombeech]

I can attest to Kevin wearing a helmet in the city-usually at BCMC meetings where mass chair throwing normally breaks out!
And elbow and knee pads, for the slam dancing. :haha:

:roflol: don't forget the jock strap

Great photos, thanks.