Retrievable anchor idea

[moab mark]

Have been playing around with another tool to bring your webbing down. While in moab this past week used it several times in the canyons we did. On a side note finally found pleasides, came with in seconds of turning back because we thought we were in the wrong place but then it appeared. Have to admit it is awesome. We were amazed how big the pine tree is at the first rappel. Just a trickle of water running right now. Never been canyoneering before and run into a elk hunter but you can in the Lasals. The elk hunter also told us of another place in the lasals he sees people rappeling, went and checked it out, looked good but was getting dark and lightly snowing, next time. Left my camera in moab in my storage shed but will try to get some pics up.
Back to the new rigging idea. If your anchor is clean and the pull is clean we took a piece of webbing tied a rapide in one end and a carabiner in the other. Put the webbing around the anchor, feed your rope through the rapide and then take a 3/8 flat washer and feed the rope through it. Now feed the rope through the carabiner. After feeding the rope through the carabiner tie a overhand knot in the end of the rope and then send it down. Rappel double and then pull the end with out the knot. The knot goes up through the carabiner but can not fit through the washer and the washer will not fit through the rapide. The washer will now pull the rapide and webbing off of the anchor. We used this on the arch in lomatium and granary and a couple of times in pleasides. We thought the knot might catch on the carabiner but it never failed. It worked suprisingly well. Its not for everytime, but if the pull is clean it is a fast way to get your webbing down and is simple to rig.
Mark

[oldno7]

Interesting Mark....
I have a real simple method that works great, will show you in Moab this spring if you remind me.

[ratagonia]

...Back to the new rigging idea. If your anchor is clean and the pull is clean we took a piece of webbing tied a rapide in one end and a carabiner in the other. Put the webbing around the anchor, feed your rope through the rapide and then take a 3/8 flat washer and feed the rope through it. Now feed the rope through the carabiner. After feeding the rope through the carabiner tie a overhand knot in the end of the rope and then send it down. Rappel double and then pull the end with out the knot. The knot goes up through the carabiner but can not fit through the washer and the washer will not fit through the rapide. The washer will now pull the rapide and webbing off of the anchor. We used this on the arch in lomatium and granary and a couple of times in pleasides. We thought the knot might catch on the carabiner but it never failed. It worked suprisingly well. Its not for everytime, but if the pull is clean it is a fast way to get your webbing down and is simple to rig.
Mark

Cool, Mark. Sounds like a real simple method that works great. Good atcha. You'll have to show me it sometime this spring, maybe in Moab - please remind me.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

This might be the coolest of all the retrievable anchor methods I've used to date. I'm hoping this crude drawing helps explain the retrival system. It has been my intention to show the method in photo's or video one of these days but I never seem to get around to doing it.

The trick is the flat washer has to be small enough to pass easily through the biner but large enough that it will not pass through the rapid when you pull your rope.

You pull your rope from the side that does not have a knot. The washer captures the rapid and pulls your webbing down with your rope.

You rappel double strand, just as you normally would.


:cool2:

[moab mark]

That is the concept but I actually place the washer between the rapide and biner, I only pull up the knot. I just use an overhand knot.

[Stick]

I have one question about this rigging that I am wondering if any of you engineering types (or otherwise) might have an answer for.

When pulling the webbing, carabiner, and rapid link down a drop, is damage to the carabiner from the drop a concern? (And for that matter, the rapid link as well?)

The reason I ask is I have seen a few climbers refuse to use a carabiner that has been dropped, being worried that cracks might form and compromise the integrity of the carabiner.

Is this someting to be legitimately concerned about? Or is it not that big of a deal?

[ratagonia]

I have one question about this rigging that I am wondering if any of you engineering types (or otherwise) might have an answer for.

When pulling the webbing, carabiner, and rapid link down a drop, is damage to the carabiner from the drop a concern? (And for that matter, the rapid link as well?)

The reason I ask is I have seen a few climbers refuse to use a carabiner that has been dropped, being worried that cracks might form and compromise the integrity of the carabiner.

Is this someting to be legitimately concerned about? Or is it not that big of a deal?

You should certainly inspect a carabiner that has fallen and crashed from a height. It may have gotten dinged up so that the gate does not close cleanly, but this tends to not be a problem for canyoneers as we use mostly locking carabiners.

Carabiners do not "micro-crack" or otherwise develop hidden defects. This is a myth propogated by overly-enthusiastic engineering students after a discussion of micro-cracks in high-tech ceramics used in jet engine turbine blades. The material used in making carabiners is very, very different, and hidden cracks do not develop.

When the carabiner is tied to the rope, it also does not impact all that hard. Also, since the carabiner weighs very little, the forces developed when it hits are not all that high. No, don't worry about this.

Tom :moses:

[Cirrus2000]

Wow, that's a really cool concept. Looks great! Just don't want a sharp washer in the middle - just nicely rounded and smooth, if you're pulling half the rope through (Mark's plan), though that wouldn't be a concern with Shane's conception of it.

Can't believe I totally missed this thread when it was originally posted...

:2thumbs:

[Canyonbug]

Another tool for the box. Thanks for sharing your ideas.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

I used a similar concept years ago when big-wall climbing in zion. I would cut a couple inches off the top of a 2 liter bottle and run the rope through the center. the pastic bottle won't damage the rope and protects the knot from damage when it's being dragged across the sandstone.

[Don]

I used a similar concept years ago when big-wall climbing in zion. I would cut a couple inches off the top of a 2 liter bottle and run the rope through the center. the pastic bottle won't damage the rope and protects the knot from damage when it's being dragged across the sandstone.

I was going to post this same idea. I'd seen this in photos a couple years ago and like the plastic bottle much better than the washer.

[moab mark]

Wow, that's a really cool concept. Looks great! Just don't want a sharp washer in the middle - just nicely rounded and smooth, if you're pulling half the rope through (Mark's plan), though that wouldn't be a concern with Shane's conception of it.

Can't believe I totally missed this thread when it was originally posted...

:2thumbs:

I do not recommend pulling the washer up from the bottom. It wants to catch on the biner. I just you the basic 3/8's washer from the hardware store. You can also use it without the washer if your rapide is one of the smaller ones. Have used it dozens of times and have never had a problem. When Bruce pulled it in Granary he commented that he didn't even feel the knot pass thru the biner. Just make sure the pull is clean, if the webbing gets stuck you will be missing your rope.

I like it over the other releasables due to no chance of pre release.

[moab mark]

I used a similar concept years ago when big-wall climbing in zion. I would cut a couple inches off the top of a 2 liter bottle and run the rope through the center. the pastic bottle won't damage the rope and protects the knot from damage when it's being dragged across the sandstone.

I was going to post this same idea. I'd seen this in photos a couple years ago and like the plastic bottle much better than the washer.

Has anyone got a picture of this idea?
If you are putting the bottle top between the biner and rapide the bottle is going to get crushed?

[Stick]

I have one question about this rigging that I am wondering if any of you engineering types (or otherwise) might have an answer for.

When pulling the webbing, carabiner, and rapid link down a drop, is damage to the carabiner from the drop a concern? (And for that matter, the rapid link as well?)

The reason I ask is I have seen a few climbers refuse to use a carabiner that has been dropped, being worried that cracks might form and compromise the integrity of the carabiner.

Is this someting to be legitimately concerned about? Or is it not that big of a deal?

You should certainly inspect a carabiner that has fallen and crashed from a height. It may have gotten dinged up so that the gate does not close cleanly, but this tends to not be a problem for canyoneers as we use mostly locking carabiners.

Carabiners do not "micro-crack" or otherwise develop hidden defects. This is a myth propogated by overly-enthusiastic engineering students after a discussion of micro-cracks in high-tech ceramics used in jet engine turbine blades. The material used in making carabiners is very, very different, and hidden cracks do not develop.

When the carabiner is tied to the rope, it also does not impact all that hard. Also, since the carabiner weighs very little, the forces developed when it hits are not all that high. No, don't worry about this.

Tom :moses:

Thanks Tom

[Iceaxe]

Revised picture showing the correct position of the washer.

[trackrunner]

tree climbers use a similar set up. They don't use a washer but a rapide that is small enough that a knot would pull it down. could be used canyoneering only if the pull is clean.

[mtthwlw]

Revised picture showing the correct position of the washer.

Thanks for the diagram. To me, this is more helpful than a picture anyway.

[ScoutColorado]

Mark introduced me to his system in a Canyon, and I thought "Simple and Brilliant!"
BUT it does have ONE MAJOR FLAW! How you gonna sell these to all those yuppie canyoneers? Even the rocket surgeons here at BOGLEY are gonna figure it out eventually. "Why those look a lot like washers"

But then I stumbled across this in the latest issue of Canyoneering.....
RR

[Rob L]

Just a thought...if you put the knot immediately to the right of the washer (in Shane's last diagram) then if the pull wasn't clean, you could still save the rope by pulling the other way.

Would that work?

[rcwild]

Just a thought...if you put the knot immediately to the right of the washer (in Shane's last diagram) then if the pull wasn't clean, you could still save the rope by pulling the other way.

Would that work?

If I understand your question correctly ... no, it won't work, except MAYBE on very very short rappels. When the knot hits the washer, you will be pulling down on the rope at the same time you are pulling the webbing around the tree. Too much friction and the carabiner will pull a bight of rope up and around the back side of the tree.

It has been tried. This system is used by tree climbers with what they call an artificial crotch.

[Rob L]

Do'h...should have thunk it through more proper!

[moab mark]

Mark introduced me to his system in a Canyon, and I thought "Simple and Brilliant!"
BUT it does have ONE MAJOR FLAW! How you gonna sell these to all those yuppie canyoneers? Even the rocket surgeons here at BOGLEY are gonna figure it out eventually. "Why those look a lot like washers"

But then I stumbled across this in the latest issue of Canyoneering.....
RR


I'm liking this idea. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

But then I stumbled across this in the latest issue of Canyoneering.....

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

And it's only $29.95!

:2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

And for those playing with retrieveable anchors, here is anther thread with some interesting ideas/information.

Retrievable Rappel Anchors
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10117

:cool2:

[oldno7]

But then I stumbled across this in the latest issue of Canyoneering.....

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

And it's only $29.95!

:2thumbs:

Way overpriced-----

It should be $19.95 and if you call in the next 10 minutes, we'll throw in another one free, just pay additional shipping.

[Iceaxe]

A friend brought one of these along last weekend.... we discovered that if you bought a right-hand model you can turn it up-side-down and use it on left-hand rappels.

:bootyshake:

[ScoutColorado]

A friend brought one of these along last weekend.... we discovered that if you bought a right-hand model you can turn it up-side-down and use it on left-hand rappels.

:bootyshake:
Well, that would work in the southern hemisphere, but that is a VERY DANGEROUS thing to do up here. The manufacturer recommends carrying both a left and right hand version for different rappels, and don't get them mixed up! :nono:

Maybe OldNo7 is right - They should sell these for $19.95, order a right version and get a free left!

[Cirrus2000]

Maybe OldNo7 is right - They should sell these for $19.95, order a right version and get a free left!
Free - just an additional shipping & handling fee for the left version, only $8.95.

[oldno7]

A friend brought one of these along last weekend.... we discovered that if you bought a right-hand model you can turn it up-side-down and use it on left-hand rappels.

:bootyshake:

I bought a couple of these, both sides say--"this side up" !!!
I'm thinking Mark had these mass produced in China and this is a serious safety issue. I've contacted my attorney, we're awaiting a recall from MM Industries.
I've always wanted to own a Chevron station or 2. :mrgreen:

[ScoutColorado]

A friend brought one of these along last weekend.... we discovered that if you bought a right-hand model you can turn it up-side-down and use it on left-hand rappels.

:bootyshake:

I bought a couple of these, both sides say--"this side up" !!!
I'm thinking Mark had these mass produced in China and this is a serious safety issue. I've contacted my attorney, we're awaiting a recall from MM Industries.
I've always wanted to own a Chevron station or 2. :mrgreen:

Wow, I think you might be right.....
I enlarged the ad.....

[xxnitsuaxx]

We tried this setup this weekend in Zion. We ended up backing down from Spry and rappelling down the slickrock approach so we could try this without risk of losing our rope. This is based on the first diagram that Shane put up. I have to admit, I don't get the advantage of his second diagram (washer in between the biner and rapide, knot at the bottom) over his first (washer at the very end). As long as the biner is big enough (we used a big pear-shaped) it shouldn't be a problem, right? Also, is the washer necessary? We just used a stopper knot at the end of the rope and it worked fine. Any criticism (constructive or just downright bitchy) is appreciated.

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs186.snc3/19354_724970656009_17803073_39759216_427319_n.jpg

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs186.snc3/19354_724970660999_17803073_39759217_3331179_n.jpg

[ratagonia]

We tried this setup this weekend in Zion. We ended up backing down from Spry and rappelling down the slickrock approach so we could try this without risk of losing our rope. This is based on the first diagram that Shane put up. I have to admit, I don't get the advantage of his second diagram (washer in between the biner and rapide, knot at the bottom) over his first (washer at the very end). As long as the biner is big enough (we used a big pear-shaped) it shouldn't be a problem, right? Also, is the washer necessary? We just used a stopper knot at the end of the rope and it worked fine. Any criticism (constructive or just downright bitchy) is appreciated.


One problem on this kinda thing - gotta have a situation where the carabiner can pull out around the back of the tree or rock cleanly. One of the advantages of the Omnisling is that the part needed to pull around the back is very clean.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

One problem on this kinda thing - gotta have a situation where the carabiner can pull out around the back of the tree or rock cleanly. One of the advantages of the Omnisling is that the part needed to pull around the back is very clean.

Tom :moses:

When I first started using the washer retrievable we were placing the washer between the rapide and the carabiner because an overhand knot was very close to pulling thru some of the bigger rapides. We were trying to use the smallest knot possible to keep it from catching on the biner. I have quit using the washer and am just using an over hand.

As far as what Tom stated he is correct make sure the pull is clean. But one positive over an omnisling is the webbing cannot accidently pre release. I am by no means an expert on the omnisling but I did used mine several times and it seems to work fine but IMO it's not worth hauling the omnisling for the chance you might use it. If I can't use the washer trick just leave some webbing behind. I was also very disappointed that nobody put in any orders for the gold plated washers.:angryfire:

YMMV
Mark

[ratagonia]

When I first started using the washer retrievable we were placing the washer between the rapide and the carabiner because an overhand knot was very close to pulling thru some of the bigger rapides. We were trying to use the smallest knot possible to keep it from catching on the biner. I have quit using the washer and am just using an over hand.

As far as what Tom stated he is correct make sure the pull is clean. But one positive over an omnisling is the webbing cannot accidently pre release. I am by no means an expert on the omnisling but I did used mine several times and it seems to work fine but IMO it's not worth hauling the omnisling for the chance you might use it. If I can't use the washer trick just leave some webbing behind. I was also very disappointed that nobody put in any orders for the gold plated washers.:angryfire:

YMMV
Mark

No DOD interest?????

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

The amount of jet fuel used lately at Hill Field stunt flying could set me up for life. Man there have been a lot of flights going vertical there lately.

[ratagonia]

The amount of jet fuel used lately at Hill Field stunt flying could set me up for life. Man there have been a lot of flights going vertical there lately.

You got that contract??? Boat trip?????

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

bump - just for fun... :moses:

[moab mark]

Used it the other day in lomatium. Since there was no market for the washer I quit using it and just use an overhand knot now. The crowd I was with were all noobs and they were flabbergasted that the rope and webbing all came down and I didn't go splat when I rappeled down.

Edit you do have to be careful when going double strand at the end that the strands are not crossed where they come over the edge. The knot can make it difficult to pull up over the edge if the other strand is on top of it.

[spinesnaper]

Mark introduced me to his system in a Canyon, and I thought "Simple and Brilliant!"
BUT it does have ONE MAJOR FLAW! How you gonna sell these to all those yuppie canyoneers? Even the rocket surgeons here at BOGLEY are gonna figure it out eventually. "Why those look a lot like washers"

But then I stumbled across this in the latest issue of Canyoneering.....
RR

I resemble this remark. Besides, I am going to hold out for the $89.95, CE approved, UIAA certified, titanium version from Petzl that is compatible with my $15 aluminum Maillons Rapides from France.:nod::crazy:

Ken

[Mountaineer]

Bump...Washer trick. Great method when the pull is clean.

[moab mark]

I do not use a washer anymore. Just tie an overhand in the end. Have used lots of times and never had a problem.