Carabiner or Knot Block???????

[Bo_Beck]

Ok...so call me old school. Whats the big deal with using a carabiner or knot block?. Fill me in please?!

Thanks...

(just dredging up old mud)

[oldno7]

I think they are both viable methods of getting a job done. I've used both recently in canyons. But for me any more it's just as easy to set up a figure 8 contingency block if a rope needs to be blocked.
On a side note--I sometimes think in CP canyons blocks are used too much and for no reason.

[canyonguru]

well i am not like most who cary a rope silo. i just sling it over my back or coil the rope up and shove it in my pack if there is a little distance between raps. Doing this really makes no sence to use a knot block or a biner block. i know when i did the Maze this year we brought a long some odd size rope to get us through and we used a biner block a couple of times. I guess it is just what you are use to. I would think in my opinion that a knot block would work just fine if you have a small rappel ring. Sometimes i think that a biner would be a little more prone to getting stuck, i might be wrong, but it is a little bulkier than a knot.

So the question is Knot Block or Biner Block i would have to say neither. i bring enough rope for the drop and the pull so i don't ever have to worrie about a block of any kind. you might think that it would take us a long time to get through the canyon but you might be surprised.

[moab mark]

When rappeling on two strands especially wet rope. My wife and very light rappellers (my kids) struggle to go down. So most of the time we use a block so they can get down without fighting it all the way to the bottom. Then the last guy if the pull looks iffy removes the block drops the other strand and rappels down both strands, or leaves the block and rappels down. Seems pretty simple and clean.:ne_nau:
Mark

[Iceaxe]

On a side note--I sometimes think in CP canyons blocks are used too much and for no reason.

I totally agree with that statement.....

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Ok...so call me old school. Whats the big deal with using a carabiner or knot block?. Fill me in please?!

Thanks...

(just dredging up old mud)

Other than stirring up the hornets, it's hard to guess exactly what you mean.

But I can say this: I don't like knot blocks. On 8mm rope, the knot can get stuck in the rapide or ring, and then you have a problem. Carabiner block releases much more consistently, and provides an easier "thing" on the rope to pull down.

Some people like rapping on a single rope, because it is simpler. Some people like rapping on a doubled rope, because it is simpler. Some say po-tay-to, some say po-tah-to. Let's call the whole thing "off".

Tom

[goofball]

On a side note--I sometimes think in CP canyons blocks are used too much and for no reason.

I totally agree with that statement.....

:popcorn:

why are blocks over used or unnecessary in cp canyons ? all a block allows for is to descend single strand right ? (shaving some minor weight off the pack contents). it makes for a higher profile pull for sure, increasing the possibility of getting caught, also creates another fail point (zion accidents in last year being examples). is that what you mean ?

blocks do scare me. i grew to not like teh clove hitch at all. it seems so wiggly, like it'll unroll and be a real buzzkill just out of spite. have read teh overhand bend has a low profile if needing to join ropes and has less chance of snagging

[oldno7]

On a side note--I sometimes think in CP canyons blocks are used too much and for no reason.

I totally agree with that statement.....

:popcorn:

why are blocks over used or unnecessary in cp canyons ? all a block allows for is to descend single strand right ? (shaving some minor weight off the pack contents). it makes for a higher profile pull for sure, increasing the possibility of getting caught, also creates another fail point (zion accidents in last year being examples). is that what you mean ?

blocks do scare me. i grew to not like teh clove hitch at all. it seems so wiggly, like it'll unroll and be a real buzzkill just out of spite. have read teh overhand bend has a low profile if needing to join ropes and has less chance of snagging

Blocks are overused because some people using them don't understand why.

Reasons to block a rope on the CP:

1) Beginners,( rig something releasable.fig. 8 block or Munter Mule )
2)Short rappels--(more efficient to only use exact amount, can also be modified T&G)
3)When your rappel is longer than 1/2 of your rope length and you want to rappel without passing a knot(any block)
4)when there's a need to set rope length(any block), a releasable if doing a combination rappel/lower, examples might be to avoid a swimming disconnect or rappeling in a waterfall and/or into a hydraulic in class C canyons.(not CP related)
5)When there is a need to keep the majority of your rope at the top.(possible rescue situations) If you use all of your rope on your rappel, you would need at least enough rope at the top to equal your longest rappel to be able to lower someone stuck on rope or be able to rappel next to them and do a pick-off.

There could be more but this is the criteria I use. If you use blocks so as to employ a pull cord it might be wiser to carry an extra couple pounds in the way of "real" rope. Pull cords are very limited in use.(clothesline in camp?)

[ratagonia]

Blocks are overused because some people using them don't understand why.

Reasons to block a rope on the CP:

1) Beginners,( rig something releasable.fig. 8 block or Munter Mule )
2)Short rappels--(more efficient to only use exact amount, can also be modified T&G)
3)When your rappel is longer than 1/2 of your rope length and you want to rappel without passing a knot(any block)
4)when there's a need to set rope length(any block), a releasable if doing a combination rappel/lower, examples might be to avoid a swimming disconnect or rappeling in a waterfall and/or into a hydraulic in class C canyons.(not CP related)
5)When there is a need to keep the majority of your rope at the top.(possible rescue situations) If you use all of your rope on your rappel, you would need at least enough rope at the top to equal your longest rappel to be able to lower someone stuck on rope or be able to rappel next to them and do a pick-off.

There could be more but this is the criteria I use. If you use blocks so as to employ a pull cord it might be wiser to carry an extra couple pounds in the way of "real" rope. Pull cords are very limited in use.(clothesline in camp?)

ANY technique that people do not understand is dangerous for them to use.

But there are other reasons to use a block:

1. because you feel like it.

Some people like using blocks and use them quite often because, well, because they feel like it. Some people like em, some people don't. There are rarely instances where they are strongly contra-indicated. Since this is America, where people are encouraged to do what they want, even when dangerous, use blocks if that is what works for you and makes sense for you.

T

[DWayne27]

Honest question here as i realize i am new to the canyoneering world and want the opinion of people who have been around longer.

all things considered, i find it easier and prefer using some sort of block as opposed to rappeling double stranded. I work out of a rope bag which is always left at the top until the last person down (usually me) clips it to the harness and comes down with it. i know there are several reasons when it is adventageuos and appropriate to use a block. the standard reasons of setting rope length, less friction for lighter rappellers, rescue, ability to set up different types of rigging at your anchor, and i like it because i can adjust my friction all i want with my pirana mid rappel and it is easier for me to lock of or ascend should the need arise. also the whole, i have a 200 ft rope and this rappel is 35 feet and i dont want have to get the whole rope out and then stuff the whole rope back in. so my question is- when you are working from a rope bag and not setting a block and then tossing both sides down, aside from possibly complicating your rope pull, what is ever the down side of using a block?

[oldno7]

Downsides to blocking a rope:

Confusing to beginners.
Less friction on long rappel.
Less friction on skinny ropes.
greater chance of sticking rope.
slower than modified T&G.

as far as adjusting friction goes, you should be able to adapt to various rope diameters as well as your weight and length of rappel.
Locking off and ascending is really not much different. But enough to want to be capable using both.
On your 35' rap example--deploy 35' through the rapide, toss bag down. You only use exactly what is needed.(thats modified T&G)
If you match rope ends and use 100' on either side of the rapide it is very inefficient.(T&G)
Theres a time and place for all,limiting yourself to SRT may not be the answer any more than always rigging T&G.

[ratagonia]

Honest question here as i realize i am new to the canyoneering world and want the opinion of people who have been around longer.

... so my question is- when you are working from a rope bag and not setting a block and then tossing both sides down, aside from possibly complicating your rope pull, what is ever the down side of using a block?

Which usually means rappelling single strand.

Rapping single strand is harder on the rope, possibly quite a bit harder. Rapping double strand puts half the tension on each rope, and the result seems to be less than half the rope-cutting action than a single-strand.

Some rappels have a propensity to "get" ropes (usually resulting in a nick, which develops into a core shot), and these would be good ones to apply double-ropes to unless otherwise contraindicated.

Some rappellers have a propensity to "get" ropes, either due to larger gravitational attraction than average, or due to sloppy technique. If they are using my rope, I would encourage them to go double strand.

If your group is very mixed (in weight, perhaps in ability, perhaps is proclivity), you may want to use a Stone Knot to double-block the rope, and then each person can choose to go down single or double. Brian Cabe will choose double just cause he prefers it. The 60 lb kids will choose single. The Crane, at 240, will choose double. Etc.

Rope Pull: sometimes the double strand is less likely to get stuck (especially if there is wood debris for the biner block to get stuck on); sometimes the single strand in less likely to get stuck.

The big rap in Upper Water Canyon has some pretty deep grooves. Rappelled double, the ropes end up in the same groove, and cannot be pulled, resulting in Tom climbing 150' of single strand of BW Canyon Pro with Tiblocs in the hot sun. I probably won't do that again! Now I rap it single strand, and park the retrieval line in a groove to the left, putting the rap line in a groove to the right. Haven't had any trouble pulling it since then...

Tom :rockon:

[Bo_Beck]

Awesome! I was really trying to stir up the hornets nest (without getting stung!) but, I got a bunch of fricking totally "reasonable" answers! Shit...whats up with you guys (and gals)? Put your dukes up and FIGHT! It's so refreshing to see everyones point of view and the objectivity (as well as subjective views!) Thanks for the civility.

(I still am waiting for escalators in all of the canyons; long live disney!)

[moab mark]

"Oldno" Locking off and ascending is really not much different. But enough to want to be capable using both.

this is probably a stupid question and it is probably easy but if descending on double strand, how do you turn around mid stream and ascend? I know how to do it on a single but not a double.

Also if doing the toss and go, when you are not able to see the bottom of the rappel and are not sure of the height, are you just dropping lots of rope to make sure the end without the bag is on the ground? My experience has been this creates a big mess at the bottom. Or if enough rope has not been deployed then what? Maybe this is not the way to handle this but when unsure of the length we have blocked the rope and dropped the bag. We always have two ropes and the extra one is kept at the top until the end.Then after the rest of the group is on the ground the last guy pulls up enough to double the rope or ties on the other rope and then rappels.

[Bo_Beck]

"Oldno" Locking off and ascending is really not much different. But enough to want to be capable using both.

this is probably a stupid question and it is probably easy but if descending on double strand, how do you turn around mid stream and ascend? I know how to do it on a single but not a double.



Purcell Prusik System! :2thumbs:

[oldno7]

"Oldno" Locking off and ascending is really not much different. But enough to want to be capable using both.

this is probably a stupid question and it is probably easy but if descending on double strand, how do you turn around mid stream and ascend? I know how to do it on a single but not a double.

Also if doing the toss and go, when you are not able to see the bottom of the rappel and are not sure of the height, are you just dropping lots of rope to make sure the end without the bag is on the ground? My experience has been this creates a big mess at the bottom. Or if enough rope has not been deployed then what? Maybe this is not the way to handle this but when unsure of the length we have blocked the rope and dropped the bag. We always have two ropes and the extra one is kept at the top until the end.Then after the rest of the group is on the ground the last guy pulls up enough to double the rope or ties on the other rope and then rappels.

On descent--stop, lock off your rappel device, attach a rope grab capable of grabbing 2 strands(bachman,shunt, 2 tiblocs or ??) attache to belay loop or harness on a seperate biner than the one used on your rap device. I use the long end of my tether for the upper attachment.Repeat for a foot loop. Once you ascend enough to unweight your rap device, unhook it and ascend.
If we can't see the bottom of a rappel T&G is not a good choice. A lower/rappel to set rope length would be better. Or????

[Bo_Beck]

"Oldno" Locking off and ascending is really not much different. But enough to want to be capable using both.

this is probably a stupid question and it is probably easy but if descending on double strand, how do you turn around mid stream and ascend? I know how to do it on a single but not a double.

Also if doing the toss and go, when you are not able to see the bottom of the rappel and are not sure of the height, are you just dropping lots of rope to make sure the end without the bag is on the ground? My experience has been this creates a big mess at the bottom. Or if enough rope has not been deployed then what? Maybe this is not the way to handle this but when unsure of the length we have blocked the rope and dropped the bag. We always have two ropes and the extra one is kept at the top until the end.Then after the rest of the group is on the ground the last guy pulls up enough to double the rope or ties on the other rope and then rappels.

On descent--stop, lock off your rappel device, attach a rope grab capable of grabbing 2 strands(bachman,shunt, 2 tiblocs or ??) attache to belay loop or harness on a seperate biner than the one used on your rap device. Repeat for a foot loop. Once you ascend enough to unweight your rap device, unhook it and ascend.
If we can't see the bottom of a rappel T&G is not a good choice. A lower/rappel to set rope length would be better. Or????

Damnit Kurt! Why does it have to be so "Complex"? Just grab the rope and pull yourself up! :haha:

Ok....how many of you have "actually" had to re-ascend the rope?

What did you do?

[oldno7]

Bo--
Double strand-- what hitch do you attache your purcell to the rap line with?
Or do you use them dang fancy mechanical aides? :haha:

[DWayne27]

Rapping single strand is harder on the rope, possibly quite a bit harder. Rapping double strand puts half the tension on each rope, and the result seems to be less than half the rope-cutting action than a single-strand.
...

If your group is very mixed (in weight, perhaps in ability, perhaps is proclivity), you may want to use a Stone Knot to double-block the rope, and then each person can choose to go down single or double. Brian Cabe will choose double just cause he prefers it. The 60 lb kids will choose single. The Crane, at 240, will choose double. Etc.


good point i havent considered, and good advice

[Bo_Beck]

Bo--
Double strand-- what hitch do you attache your purcell to the rap line with?
Or do you use them dang fancy mechanical aides? :haha:

Last time I had to re-ascend a "doubled rope" was the first rappel in Heaps "Phantom Entry". Seems that the last person down didn't inspect for twists and was unable to pull the rope down. I went up a single line for the first 10' and then threw a wrap-3 Prusik Hitch (to my waist) around both ropes and used 2 wrap 2 prusik hitches around both ropes for my feet. Worked just fine. 6mm Purcell Prusik System on doubled 8mm ropes.

[gootwan]

If we can't see the bottom of a rappel T&G is not a good choice. A lower/rappel to set rope length would be better. Or????

If you know there is not a swimmer at the bottom, and you know you have a rope twice the length of the longest rappel: put the end of the rope through the rapide and attach a block. First rappeller raps with the full rope bag to the bottom. Those at the top then clean the block and pull the rope through using the first rappeller to set the rope length. The rest of the group raps double or single.

Jordan

[Ryebrye]

In addition to the preference issue - a large part of the preference can be dictated by the choice of rappel device.

Two people in my group have grown to love the Petzl Pirana because of the simple fact that you never take it off the biner so you never risk dropping it down and being forced to use a less-attractive means to lower yourself (well, in my case, I always carry a backup Pirana)

Although you can kind of do a double-strand rap on a Pirana - it doesn't work very well.

So, since we prefer to use Piranas, we prefer to go single strand and therefore we use 'biner blocks extensively. I find it makes rope management a lot easier.

As far as the safety factor is concerned - you can back up your block like Tom mentioned and only have the last guy be truly going on the block - so people can go double if they so choose.

By using blocks frequently everyone I go with regularly is very skilled at rigging them, and has a habit of double / triple-checking that they are on the correct side of the block before unclipping from the anchors and beginning their rappel.

As far as knot blocks go... I can make two loops in a rope, put them together the right way, and clip a locking biner through them and have a clove-hitch biner block in less than two seconds - so I can't see when I would want to spend the time tying a knot to make a block. It takes longer, doesn't seem as secure, and I would imagine could be a real PITA to get out of the rope after you pull it.

[ratagonia]

As far as knot blocks go... I can make two loops in a rope, put them together the right way, and clip a locking biner through them and have a clove-hitch biner block in less than two seconds - so I can't see when I would want to spend the time tying a knot to make a block. It takes longer, doesn't seem as secure, and I would imagine could be a real PITA to get out of the rope after you pull it.

Knot Blocks: depends on your rope. Using 8mm ropes, the knot has a tendency to be pulled into, and get stuck in, a round ring. After getting two stuck, I no longer use knot blocks.

Pirana double strand: works with 8mm rope, but if you are using bigger ropes than that, there does not tend to be much room.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Bump - just 'cause I'm bored. :moses:

[canyoncaver]

5)When there is a need to keep the majority of your rope at the top.(possible rescue situations)

Every rappel is a possible rescue situation. That is why it is good to make a habit of leaving the majority of your rope at the top. If you do it every time out of habit, then it will be there the time that you actually need it.

[oldno7]

Every rappel is a possible rescue situation. That is why it is good to make a habit of leaving the majority of your rope at the top. If you do it every time out of habit, then it will be there the time that you actually need it.

:2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

:popcorn:

[moab mark]

Really really bored, so for the majority of rappels are most of you using a biner block, knot block, releasable or going double strand?

[ratagonia]

Really really bored, so for the majority of rappels are most of you using a biner block, knot block, releasable or going double strand?

With large group, I try to go mostly Stone Knot. Teach it to everyone at the first rap, have every person setting up raps.

In small groups, generally a mix of Stones, biner blocks and just going double.

Class C (for real) raps: going for the munter-mule releasable.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Standard CP Canyoneering
meaning I'm with a group of competent canyoneers
50% double strand
50% biner block
The reason for the 50% biner block is because we often use a 6mm pull cord.

Guide Mode CP Canyoneering
meaning I'm with noob's, children or anyone I think might have problems.
90% top rope belay
10% releasable figure 8 or munter-mule.

A few years ago 80% of my canyoneering was with highly skilled canyoneers and I was seldom in Guide Mode. But now days probably 80% of my time is now spent in Guide Mode as my kids and their friends have reached the age where they usually want to tag along. There is almost always at least one noob in the group these days. And my sexy wife is a self described 'perpetual noob', so I'm always in Guide Mode with her. I think she really just does that to make me feel manly.

A lot of what equipment I carry and what techniques I use are based on who I'm canyoneering with and what they feel comfortable with.

[ratagonia]

(bump, because despite Bo's best efforts :crazy: it was a good discussion). :nod:

:moses:

[ilipichicuma]

For the dumb people like me who didn't know what a Munter Mule was until I just Googled it, I found this cool site that I thought did a good job of explaining how to tie it and what it's used for.

http://www.animatedknots.com/muntermule/index.php

[optikal]

Great information here, thanks for reviving this thread :)

[hank moon]

For the dumb people like me who didn't know what a Munter Mule was until I just Googled it, I found this cool site that I thought did a good job of explaining how to tie it and what it's used for.

http://www.animatedknots.com/muntermule/index.php

Critique of the knot linked above:

1. The finishing tie-off is incorrect; it should be a overhand knot.
2. Ideally, the load strand would be on the spine side of the carabiner.

See here for a correctly tied munter mule: http://goo.gl/RufG6

[ilipichicuma]

Critique of the knot linked above:

1. The finishing tie-off is incorrect; it should be a overhand knot.
2. Ideally, the load strand would be on the spine side of the carabiner.

See here for a correctly tied munter mule: http://goo.gl/RufG6

Thanks, Hank. I didn't really know and that link does show it better. :nod: