webbing anchors

[moab mark]

I was up big cottonwood this morning with a youth group and was playing around tying off anchors while they all rappelled.
My question is, when creating a webbing anchor off let's say two trees several ft from the edge, and you want two rapides, one for the group to use back from the edge, and one hanging just over the edge to make for a easy pull of the rope. What is the best way to do this? I tied this in several different ways but was wondering if someone can draw or explain a clean way to do this?
Mark

[ratagonia]

I was up big cottonwood this morning with a youth group and was playing around tying off anchors while they all rappelled.
My question is, when creating a webbing anchor off let's say two trees several ft from the edge, and you want two rapides, one for the group to use back from the edge, and one hanging just over the edge to make for a easy pull of the rope. What is the best way to do this? I tied this in several different ways but was wondering if someone can draw or explain a clean way to do this?
Mark

The Courtesy Rappel

Due to rope recovery issues, the rappel point (where the rope passes through) should be out over the edge. Butt... this makes starting the rappel extremely difficult. What's a canyon leader to do???

In truth, the rappel point over the edge only needs to be there for the LAST rappeller (usually the rigger, or one of the most experienced persons, who can do the difficult start safely). The rest of the crew can rap from a higher point where the rap is easier to start (plus also probably safer and faster). Thus the courtesy rappel.

Set the rappel up as for the last person, with the rapide over the edge. Then, using a (locking) carabiner, clip the rapide up to another anchor point that allows easy access, rigging and starting. In a canyon, this may even be a meat anchor. The cru raps. The cleanup guy removes the courtesy rappel and cleans up, then does the obnoxious downclimb to get over the edge. Rap is pulled. Everyone is happy.

Tom

[denaliguide]

yea, what tom said.

[moab mark]

Tom's idea is how we have basically done it. We have a overhand with a loop tied in the end for the last guy But if you want to clip the carabiner up in your same webbing should you tie an overhand knot between your two strands up higherso you can clip above the knot for the group to rappel off? The concern with this is if one anchor gives the carabiner is going to slide off the end and drop till the anchor spot in the end tightens up. If that made any sense?
Mark

[ratagonia]

Tom's idea is how we have basically done it. We have a overhand with a loop tied in the end for the last guy But if you want to clip the carabiner up in your same webbing should you tie an overhand knot between your two strands up higherso you can clip above the knot for the group to rappel off? The concern with this is if one anchor gives the carabiner is going to slide off the end and drop till the anchor spot in the end tightens up. If that made any sense?
Mark

Sense? Uh, I guess I can guess at what you're saying.

for practice raps in LCC, why are you using anchors that you think have the possibility of failing??? :haha:
Just wear a helmet, you'll be fine.

T

[moab mark]

we weren't using them, we were just tying them on a couple of trees there while the group was rappeling off of the bolt anchors.
Mark

[ratagonia]

Tom's idea is how we have basically done it. We have a overhand with a loop tied in the end for the last guy But if you want to clip the carabiner up in your same webbing should you tie an overhand knot between your two strands up higherso you can clip above the knot for the group to rappel off? The concern with this is if one anchor gives the carabiner is going to slide off the end and drop till the anchor spot in the end tightens up. If that made any sense?
Mark

Since the courtesy anchor will be removed by the last rapper, you can use a seperate system of webbing and rig properly at the "courtesy length", without fear of extension. Might have trouble getting the knots untied.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Tom's idea is how we have basically done it. We have a overhand with a loop tied in the end for the last guy But if you want to clip the carabiner up in your same webbing should you tie an overhand knot between your two strands up higherso you can clip above the knot for the group to rappel off? The concern with this is if one anchor gives the carabiner is going to slide off the end and drop till the anchor spot in the end tightens up. If that made any sense?
Mark

You could also tie a "higher knot", and clip the biner in THROUGH the higher knot, so it cannot shift higher or lower. Or tie two higher knots.

a lot easier to do, if you think of it before setting up the rope.

T