Bolt or no Bolt

[intellectualdesperado]

I had a lengthy/heated discussion with a friend about bolting after a recent trip to home depot where I picked up a shiny new Milwaukee cordless 18v hammer drill.

I'm not a big fan of bolting nor self-important douche bags who go through canyons removing bolts. I have yet to put or pull a bolt in a canyon and believe natural anchors should be used when ever possible.

I was planning on putting one bolt at the end Zero G. Mostly because I fall into the "Large Frame Canyoneer" category. There is no way I'll fit behind the last choke stone. And the only place where I can get down is about 25'-30' above and ankle busting landing.

Last trip through the canyon I jammed a log between the walls of the "bomb bay" and hand-lined it down. There could be serious repercussions or concussions if ye'ole cedar log were to slip or break.

I realize this topic is brought up way to often but I would like to hear your opinions? Feel free to include a reason for your opinion. "I'm self-important douche bag" or "I don't want boy scouts in my canyons" are acceptable answers.

Here's a video if you want a visual.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=39523034

[tanya]

Since I have never posted on this topic and I can't sleep, I will even though I hate to get in the middle of bolt wars.. but I think those that use to get all hot and bothered (but we all know I love when men start fighting... and get hot and bothered and stuff)....now I am getting side tracked. :haha:

So back to bolts..

Looks and Environmental Concerns

I hate to see webbing in the canyons. The brighter it is the worse it is. There are places like at Kolob where there are several options of webbing to use depending on where you want to go down.

On the other hand, I have no problem with a bolt. Most people are never even going to notice a bolt. They sort of blend in and are not obnoxious looking at all.

Challenge

I know some canyoneers don't care about the looks or if one is natural and one 'damages' the rock, but what concerns them is that bolts or webbing take away from the challenge of the canyon.

I don't get this one. If you don't want to use them and want to set up a natural anchor (ducking Shane's knock on my head) then why not ignore them and just do your own thing and set up your temporary anchors?

I have no problem with excess bolting because I think it makes the canyon safer for the average canyoneer. I know online are a lot of the hardcore types, but this is such a small percentage of those that do go through the canyons.

:argue: :fakelaugh: :chairshot: :compthrow: :idea:
:treehugger: :spankme: :nono2: :mrgreen:

:bert: :soapbox: :vader:

[stefan]

I don't get this one. If you don't want to use them and want to set up a natural anchor (ducking Shane's knock on my head) then why not ignore them and just do your own thing and set up your temporary anchors?



temporary anchors ... you just nailed the essence of why many have issues with bolts and prefer natural anchors

[tanya]

I don't get this one. If you don't want to use them and want to set up a natural anchor (ducking Shane's knock on my head) then why not ignore them and just do your own thing and set up your temporary anchors?



temporary anchors ... you just nailed the essence of why many have issues with bolts and prefer natural anchors


While I am probably, other than you, the most environmental supporter in the group, I don't see the bolts as doing harm to the environment and the safety of canyoneers is worth. in my opinion, having the bolts in the rock. :nod:

[stefan]

I was planning on putting one bolt at the end Zero G. Mostly because I fall into the "Large Frame Canyoneer" category. There is no way I'll fit behind the last choke stone. And the only place where I can get down is about 25'-30' above and ankle busting landing.

Last trip through the canyon I jammed a log between the walls of the "bomb bay" and hand-lined it down. There could be serious repercussions or concussions if ye'ole cedar log were to slip or break.


did you try slinging the rope around the chockstone, slithering out laterally beyond the chockstone where it's wide enough, and hand-lining down from there? or do you feel you need to be too far out (not to get stuck), which would result in a high velocity swing through the bombay?

[shaggy125]

You would definitely be dumbing down the canyon just because you don't have the skills to get down. Large frame canyoneers with skills can get down safely, I know a few big guys who have done it safely, and I know big guys who haven't. I guarantee a "self-important douche bag" would remove your bolt and you'd piss a lot of people off for doing what many would consider equivalent to chipping out handholds to make a 5.12 climb 5.10. We could build bolt traverses across the high stemming slots so that "everyone" can do them, but it's good to have canyons to build yourself up to. I'd say if you can't get down it safely when others before you have maybe you should wait and do the canyon after you feel your skills are up to the task, then there is no need for a bolt and everyone stays happy. There are hundreds of other canyons out there. :mrgreen:

[Iceaxe]

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

The above quote was stolen from Stevee B, I have kept a copy of it because it sums up the bolting issue very nicely.

:popcorn:

[DWayne27]

I have kept a copy of it because it sums up the bolting issue very nicely.

:popcorn:

it sums up ONE OPINION of the bolting issue very nicely

[Iceaxe]

I was planning on putting one bolt at the end Zero G. Mostly because I fall into the "Large Frame Canyoneer" category. There is no way I'll fit behind the last choke stone. And the only place where I can get down is about 25'-30' above and ankle busting landing.

Since I also fall into the category of "large frame canyoneer" and I am forced to go "over the top" I thought you might be interested in a small historical note in regards to Zero-G.... when we first did the canyon we downclimbed the entire route, including me going over the top.

A couple of thoughts and suggestions before vandalizing Zero-G.... hundreds and now probably thousands of canyoneers have done the route before you and none required bolts.... are hundreds and now probably thousands of canyoneers really more skilled than you?

You can wrap a rope around the chokestone at the top of the drop and you have an outstanding anchor if you feel inclined to rappel the last drop. I fail to see how a bolt is safer than a 400 pound chokestone. We have rigged zip lines off of that chokestone and it's not going anywhere.

The final obstacle also lends its self well to a partner assist.... if you have a skinny guy who can go low send him through first to spot for large frame canyoneers going over the top.

Two ways to do it.... drill and bolt.... or teamwork, ingenuity and intelligence....

:popcorn:

[Scott Card]

I have done Zero G a few times. I have done the pendulum swing into small canyoneers a couple of times. It is kinda like bowling for canyoneers... I being the bowling ball and the smaller guys the pins. Fun for me actually. :haha: The other way that Shane suggested is the zip line. It is fun, in fact more fun than the bowling for canyoneers method. Please don

[tanya]

I have kept a copy of it because it sums up the bolting issue very nicely.

:popcorn:

it sums up ONE OPINION of the bolting issue very nicely


:2thumbs: :five:

[Jaxx]

here we go again :lobby: :flamer: :wallbash: :repost:

[hank moon]

I haven't done Zero G, but in many cases the large-frame people can rap off one or more members of the party who can D/C the drop.

Temporary Mobile Anchors are fun!

[tanya]

here we go again :lobby: :flamer: :wallbash: :repost:


I love watching men duke it out. :roflol:

[Jaxx]

I love watching men duke it out. :roflol:

I feel the same way about women. the best part is the end when the pillow fight is over and they kiss and make up.

[tanya]

I love watching men duke it out. :roflol:

I feel the same way about women. the best part is the end when the pillow fight is over and they kiss and make up.


I like the fighting part... makes me so (don't want to get this thread tossed in the trash, but you guys know) .... the adreneline is flowing and it making up is so much fun. I have a feeling you would not mind being in the middle of the fighting or the making up parts.

That is a manly thing for sure!


:lol8: :roflol: I am posting on the wrong dang thread! How did you ever get on that subject here! :mrgreen:


:lol8:

[intellectualdesperado]

"Please don't vandalize canyons"

I never really considered bolting vandalizing. And I don't think I will. Skill lever or is it that you have to be a skinny ass punk to make it behind the choke stone. If I remember correctly I was walking over the "bomb bay" with my toes on one side of the wall and my heals on the other. So I guess the real question is.... is your chest more narrow than your fee. or gut in my case.

As far as skill level goes that comment reminds me of free climbing. Yeah its great if you can impress the ladies with your mad skills but you only get one mistake.

What I'm trying to say is not everyone is under six feet and has shoulders and chest as narrow as their hips. I'd love to be a 5'7" 160lb subaru outback driving rock climber but not going to happen. Anyone that size probably would never see the bolt because they wouldn't have to go out in the crack where there's a 30' drop and a very nasty landing.

So tell me. Who here has never placed a bolt. And who has never placed one for safety when they could have done it without?

[tanya]

Shane is not a little guy....... guessing 180 plus lbs. He is over 6 feet and his head is bigger than his chest most of the time. :haha:

[Scott Card]

I have never placed a bolt. I have placed one pin at the beginning of my canyoneering career at the top of the last rap in Eardly. We couldn't find the anchor that was underwater somewhere so I pounded in a knife blade if I remember correctly. I have set many natural anchors and I do believe bolts have a place in certain circumstances. Just so you know, I am 6'2" and weigh, depending on the amount of donuts and dutch oven cookin going on, 195 lbs to 210 at any given time. I am not a skinny climber. Heck that is why I like canyoneering, most of the time, gravity is my friend. I start at the top and go DOWN, hopefully in a controlled manner. No one, I mean no one has ever accused me of being a climber :lol8:

When I went through Zero G with Shane, I think my group was one of the first he took through. We spoke of the zip line which had not been tried yet but which has been done several times since. When I reached the bombay, I dropped in and swung back towards the chock stone and took out the skinny guy there to catch me. It was pretty funny and a bit unnerving but there are other ways to protect that spot. Hank had a good suggestion with the meat anchors and I still maintain if you want a straight drop bring along something to wedge in the slot to re-direct your rap from the chock stone to where you want to drop in. Better yet and more fun still, send the skinny guy out first and set a zip line. That is the most fun way to exit Zero G. What a fun little canyon. Shane also asked our group's opinion of the rating of the canyon. I think we all were concerned about the bombay and rated it at a PG-13 or R. I can't remember. But the point was that it is a point of discussion and a place in the canyon to be taken seriously. Kinda like the last rap in Pine Creek with its recent accident. We take this stuff lightly sometimes and Zero G may get, or alreadh have, the reputation as a romp which it is if you know how to deal with the bombay. Otherwise, that bombay can be a serious spot if not considered and dealt with properly. I am wondering what your impression of this canyon was when you went in? I fear that the canyon is not being taken seriously and that is when folks get hurt.

[goofball]

you should do what you want. and not be offended if someone somebody else doesn't choose that route.

find like minded people who are only out to enjoy the natural world and not looking for disciples. those are the vast majority of people out there anyway.

since were talking "community", i'd like to see all those who assume they speak for the "community" take some responsibility and keep the group size down. THAT is hugely offensive to me and people i know. the entourages lumbering thru and the impact that has from approach to descent to exit. not to mention it kills the experience for others who may be there and are looking to have an outdoors experience instead of a social hour in a canyon instead of in the city. or who do not get to enjoy it at all if a permit system exists because all the permits get gobbled up.

there is no governing organization other than the laws or regulations that the land management agency (blm, usfs,nps, whatever...) has in place. so ignore everything but that. who has a link to the different agencies management plans so folks can see for their selves what is kosher and what is not ? i tried for 30-45 minutes to find something specifically on glen canyon nra but none of the documents i found mentioned bolting. its a bushwhack of info to wade thru... i assume placing new permanent fixtures is typically prohibited unless safety reasons override.

it all boils down to personality. are you the type who thinks people w/ differing approaches are "not up to skill level" or whatever ? or are you the type who doesn't care less how others do what they do so long as it is not imposed upon everyone ? neither bolts nor natural anchors are anywhere near to being imposed upon anyone. if their are multiple choices, then simply choose the one which appeals to you.

all that said i do enjoy the challenge of "clean" descents much more. almost everything can be overcome w/ teamwork and thought. but neither a bolt nor streamers of webbing is natural. a 2 square inch profile bolt w/ a short runner? or many feet of ugly webbing ? almost a draw, but properly doen the bolt is much safer, from dismount to landing.

[stefan]

"Please don't vandalize canyons"

I never really considered bolting vandalizing. And I don't think I will. Skill lever or is it that you have to be a skinny ass punk to make it behind the choke stone. If I remember correctly I was walking over the "bomb bay" with my toes on one side of the wall and my heals on the other. So I guess the real question is.... is your chest more narrow than your fee. or gut in my case.


well, as you move out laterally from the chockstone, the walls of the slot widen. this allows you to move downward, without getting stuck, if you go far enough out. some may need to go out laterally farther than others, depending on one's size. but most should be able to make it through. the issue is that the further out you go, the more *real* the bombay. but the point folks here are trying to make is that there are ways of technically dealing with the situation. that is to say, you don't need to be a skinny person, you just need to use technical/creative skills to manage the descent safely.

... and ... if you can use these skills to descend safely, then placement of a bolt can be considered unnecessary. besides, placement of a bolt in this slot would be exposed to regular flash floods, which could weaken the bolt placement, rendering it potentially unsafe.






So tell me. Who here has never placed a bolt. And who has never placed one for safety when they could have done it without?

many many folks in the canyoneering community fit this description.

[stefan]

there is no governing organization other than the laws or regulations that the land management agency (blm, usfs,nps, whatever...) has in place. so ignore everything but that. who has a link to the different agencies management plans so folks can see for their selves what is kosher and what is not ? i tried for 30-45 minutes to find something specifically on glen canyon nra but none of the documents i found mentioned bolting. its a bushwhack of info to wade thru... i assume placing new permanent fixtures is typically prohibited unless safety reasons override.


i spent 2 minutes and found this in the superintendent's compendium for Glen Canyon NRA:

http://www.nps.gov/glca/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm


Climbing: All man-made structures are closed to climbing and/or rappelling by any means.

Technical rock climbing within 1/4 mile of occupied Peregrine Falcon, Bald Eagle, Condor, Golden Eagle aeries is prohibited.

All gear and equipment used in connection with climbing activities shall be removed by the participants before departing the area.

The use of glue or other aids that are permanent or leave a visible or long lasting residue is prohibited.

Rainbow Bridge - Climbing is prohibited within the boundaries of the Monument. This includes technical and/or free climbing on any part of the natural arch of Rainbow Bridge.

Determination The prohibition of climbing within 1/4 mile of falcon, condor, or eagle aeries is intended to preclude interference with the mating, nesting, brood rearing, and fledgling activities of these sensitive species and to ensure that known territories remain undisturbed for future use by these species and remain unimpaired for scientific study or monitoring.

The requirement that all gear, including pitons, chocks, or other climbing aids be removed and the prohibition against use of glues, chock, or other aids, is intended to preserve the natural character of cliff faces and preclude visual disturbances which may occur should devices or evidence be left in place.

The prohibition against climbing or rappelling from man-made structures is intended to protect public safety and preserve the integrity of the structures against damage.

in the past on the canyons group, joe wrona, who is also a lawyer, makes a series of posts indicating that bolting in GCNRA is illegal.

[goofball]

i spent 2 minutes and found this in the superintendent's compendium for Glen Canyon NRA:

http://www.nps.gov/glca/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm


Climbing: All man-made structures are closed to climbing and/or rappelling by any means.

Technical rock climbing within 1/4 mile of occupied Peregrine Falcon, Bald Eagle, Condor, Golden Eagle aeries is prohibited.

All gear and equipment used in connection with climbing activities shall be removed by the participants before departing the area.

The use of glue or other aids that are permanent or leave a visible or long lasting residue is prohibited.

Rainbow Bridge - Climbing is prohibited within the boundaries of the Monument. This includes technical and/or free climbing on any part of the natural arch of Rainbow Bridge.

Determination The prohibition of climbing within 1/4 mile of falcon, condor, or eagle aeries is intended to preclude interference with the mating, nesting, brood rearing, and fledgling activities of these sensitive species and to ensure that known territories remain undisturbed for future use by these species and remain unimpaired for scientific study or monitoring.

The requirement that all gear, including pitons, chocks, or other climbing aids be removed and the prohibition against use of glues, chock, or other aids, is intended to preserve the natural character of cliff faces and preclude visual disturbances which may occur should devices or evidence be left in place.

The prohibition against climbing or rappelling from man-made structures is intended to protect public safety and preserve the integrity of the structures against damage.

in the past on the canyons group, joe wrona, who is also a lawyer, makes a series of posts indicating that bolting in GCNRA is illegal.

ahhhhh... i was trying to wade thru the management policies, regulations, and laws.

[neumannbruce]

If done properly, webbing keeps natural anchors and canyon looking natural if it wasn

[Scott Card]

you should do what you want. and not be offended if someone somebody else doesn't choose that route.

<snip>

since were talking "community", i'd like to see all those who assume they speak for the "community" take some responsibility and keep the group size down. THAT is hugely offensive to me and people i know. <snip>
Is it me or are these two statements a wee tad inconsistent. I like to take groups in canyons. That is doing what I want. So please don't get offended and I won't get offended if you pound in a bolt. But don't get offended if I remove it. BTW, I do not speak for anyone but myself. I have not been elected to any board, chair, presidency and neither Obama nor McCain has contacted me. So anything I say is pretty well my little 'ole opinion.

[DWayne27]

you should do what you want. and not be offended if someone somebody else doesn't choose that route.

i would say that pretty much sums up the other side of the arguement.

so- on the one hand- you have the purists who say- if you have to bolt anything, you dont belong in the canyon. basically- do things our way or find another hobby, as if they are the ones with the final say. then of course it gets brought up- ok, what about the final 280' rappel from heaps or imlay (forget which one) that even the purists use the bolts. so their view really becomes- never use a bolt unless it is necessay, and we, the elite skilled few, get to determine when it is necessary.

on the other hand, you can realize there are too many opinions in this sport and there will never be a final answer. from my limited experience, i would say that the vast majority of the canyoneering community would absolutely prefer a nice solid natural anchor, having the skills and people in your group to sequence properly and use human anchors, etc., to bolts. but, at the same time realize- hey, my life (family, kids, job, whatever...) are worth more than the self righteous opinions of canyon purists who think that for some illogical reason, a nice bolt in a good place with a short piece of webbing attached is more of an eyesore, and worse for preserving the canyon etc. than huge lengths of webbing strewn across the canyon and akward pulls creating rope grooves etc., and is somehow a great disrespect to this canyon (and yes i know every situation is different and there are often bolts right near perfectly acceptable natural anchors), so rather than showing how manly i am by rappeling of some rocks buried under the sand- i will just place this nice little bolt up out of the waterway that wont get weakened by floods, will create a nice start to my rappel, and a great rope pull that wont dig in to the rock face with an ugly groove.

and then theres the arguement of dumbing down a canyon? that has got to be the dumbest arguement i have heard on the issue. even in my short time canyoneering i have come to places where i saw a bolt and i didnt think it was necessary. did it ruin my whole experience? did it make me think the canyon was a waste of my time and my wilderness experience was tainted? did i think- 'shucks, now that someone before my felt unsafe and decided to place a bolt here to make sure they could get down safely, i am forced to also use that method rather than using my own skills to find a more exciting way to over come that obstacle?' nope. just went on my merry way, downclimbing, using natural anchors, whatever...

to the specific situation of zero G- never done it before and it does sound like there may by some ways to protect this drop for bigger folk with out placing a bolt, and i am definitely interested in those options (6'1, 250 lbs)

in general- no one owns the canyons and can tell you what to do. solid, safe, natural anchors are ALWAYS a better option and do everything possible to learn all about them and use them. regardless of all that, if you would rather place a harmless bolt then break an ankle, fall, whatever, i dont blame you. this, as all other posts on the bolting issue, is simply an opinion. everyone is entitled to their own, whether or not the hardcore anti-bolt crew realize that or not. will anyones opinion change some elses view point? no - so, in conclusion, regardless of which side of the arguement you are on...


you should do what you want. and not be offended if someone somebody else doesn't choose that route.

[jb]

Many of these "purists" you denigrate have been extraordinarily generous over the years with their knowledge of places as well as technique. I happen to be fairly neutral on anchor issues, but I consider myself indebted to many people in the community, most of whom discourage bolts. Playing by their ethics is one way of repaying the generosity they've shown me.

But whatever your views, I think others will respect them much more once you learn to state them without referring to any who might disagree with you as "dumb" and "self righteous." The purists I've met are, without a doubt, neither.

[Jaxx]

Many of these "purists" you denigrate have been extraordinarily generous over the years with their knowledge of places as well as technique. I happen to be fairly neutral on anchor issues, but I consider myself indebted to many people in the community, most of whom discourage bolts. Playing by their ethics is one way of repaying the generosity they've shown me.

But whatever your views, I think others will respect them much more once you learn to state them without referring to any who might disagree with you as "dumb" and "self righteous." The purists I've met are, without a doubt, neither.

Wow good point. I had never thought of that. Honestly you will make me think twice about bolts. Thanks for the insight.

[Scott Card]

Many of these "purists" you denigrate have been extraordinarily generous over the years with their knowledge of places as well as technique. I happen to be fairly neutral on anchor issues, but I consider myself indebted to many people in the community, most of whom discourage bolts. Playing by their ethics is one way of repaying the generosity they've shown me.

But whatever your views, I think others will respect them much more once you learn to state them without referring to any who might disagree with you as "dumb" and "self righteous." The purists I've met are, without a doubt, neither.x2, amen, ditto, etc. :2thumbs:

[DWayne27]

But whatever your views, I think others will respect them much more once you learn to state them without referring to any who might disagree with you as "dumb" and "self righteous." The purists I've met are, without a doubt, neither.

i never referred to anyone as dumb or self righteous- just stated that in my opinion- some reasoning for hard core anti-bolt arguements is dumb and self righteous- not the people behind the arguements. just like they would say people placing bolts are disrepectful and dont belong in the canyons- i am sure the are referring to that persons view of bolting ethics rather then the individual as a person.

my personal views, with no disrespect meant to anyone, is that natural anchors are better, and most bolts are likely un-necessary if you have had the proper training/experience. i dont enjoy seeing bolts that are un-needed, but 'un-needed' means something different to every group at every drop. seeing a bolt doesnt ruin my experience and i have just as much a right to ignore that bolt as someone has to place it.

[goofball]

you should do what you want. and not be offended if someone somebody else doesn't choose that route.

<snip>

since were talking "community", i'd like to see all those who assume they speak for the "community" take some responsibility and keep the group size down. THAT is hugely offensive to me and people i know. <snip>

Is it me or are these two statements a wee tad inconsistent. I like to take groups in canyons. That is doing what I want. So please don't get offended and I won't get offended if you pound in a bolt. But don't get offended if I remove it. BTW, I do not speak for anyone but myself. I have not been elected to any board, chair, presidency and neither Obama nor McCain has contacted me. So anything I say is pretty well my little 'ole opinion.

you are correcct. i should clarify my words to reflect my thoughts - the imposing upon others. i do not see how a bolt imposes upon anyone anymore than a natural anchor does. if unfortunate enough to hit someplace during a fest w/out expecting it that is definitely an imposition. the noise of a small party is enough w/out amplifying it 2,3,4X over. teh waiting for teh bottleneccks to clear at raps or dc's or just in making it thru the slot is an imposition. managed lands such as wilderness areas have group size limits as a means of preserving the naturalness of the experience as much as is possible and minimizing impact. i find it even more an issue when in a skinny little cut in the earth as opposed to miles of open space. granted impact in a slot will wash out w/ every flash - skid marks, foot prints, anchors and slings. and yes if someone chops a bolt it would not offend me as i would never know about it unleses i placed it. and obviously it would be after the fact of my desxent so i would not care. and as i generally like to visit new places rather than return multiple times i would likely never know. and if i did return i would know i put it there, bring another in case it is gone.

also, i greatly appreciate the info supplied by those who have shared beta on particular routes. thank you shane, tom, ryan, kelsey, ram, eric, and especially dave black (and anyone else who may have given me any beta i did not have). they are part of why i like to share whenever i see something cool that i know others would enjoy. although i would share anyway, even if i started where they did and was thet first to disseminate beta. nor would i expect anything in return other than people enjoy the experience as much as i did.my gratitude just doesn't extend to adoration and linign up to take a picture. noer will it mean i agree w/ a personal position just because. and even though i am an unashamed misanthrope i ahve genuinely found everyone i have met to be at least a tolerable person. :2thumbs:

it would just be nice to hear disagreement tempered w/ advice instead of "well if your skills aren't up to par then blahbitty blah blah..."
if that is all it is people should not be surprised when discourse gets snippy. sometimes people push back.

and i don't wear a helmet either ! :roll:

[nat]

you should do what you want. and not be offended if someone somebody else doesn't choose that route.

<snip>

since were talking "community", i'd like to see all those who assume they speak for the "community" take some responsibility and keep the group size down. THAT is hugely offensive to me and people i know. <snip>

Is it me or are these two statements a wee tad inconsistent. I like to take groups in canyons. That is doing what I want. So please don't get offended and I won't get offended if you pound in a bolt. But don't get offended if I remove it. BTW, I do not speak for anyone but myself. I have not been elected to any board, chair, presidency and neither Obama nor McCain has contacted me. So anything I say is pretty well my little 'ole opinion.

you are correcct. i should clarify my words to reflect my thoughts - the imposing upon others. i do not see how a bolt imposes upon anyone anymore than a natural anchor does. if unfortunate enough to hit someplace during a fest w/out expecting it that is definitely an imposition. the noise of a small party is enough w/out amplifying it 2,3,4X over. teh waiting for teh bottleneccks to clear at raps or dc's or just in making it thru the slot is an imposition. managed lands such as wilderness areas have group size limits as a means of preserving the naturalness of the experience as much as is possible and minimizing impact. i find it even more an issue when in a skinny little cut in the earth as opposed to miles of open space. granted impact in a slot will wash out w/ every flash - skid marks, foot prints, anchors and slings. and yes if someone chops a bolt it would not offend me as i would never know about it unleses i placed it. and obviously it would be after the fact of my desxent so i would not care. and as i generally like to visit new places rather than return multiple times i would likely never know. and if i did return i would know i put it there, bring another in case it is gone.

also, i greatly appreciate the info supplied by those who have shared beta on particular routes. thank you shane, tom, ryan, kelsey, ram, eric, and especially dave black (and anyone else who may have given me any beta i did not have). they are part of why i like to share whenever i see something cool that i know others would enjoy. although i would share anyway, even if i started where they did and was thet first to disseminate beta. nor would i expect anything in return other than people enjoy the experience as much as i did.my gratitude just doesn't extend to adoration and linign up to take a picture. noer will it mean i agree w/ a personal position just because. and even though i am an unashamed misanthrope i ahve genuinely found everyone i have met to be at least a tolerable person. :2thumbs:

it would just be nice to hear disagreement tempered w/ advice instead of "well if your skills aren't up to par then blahbitty blah blah..."
if that is all it is people should not be surprised when discourse gets snippy. sometimes people push back.

and i don't wear a helmet either ! :roll:

Nicely put Jason; I appreciate your comments (even the spelling :haha: ) and like your positive attitude. Personally, I prefer to avoid placing bolts if possible, and find figuring out placing natural anchors a fun challenge. However it doesn't generally bother me to see a bolt in a canyon, it seems like a minor thing to me (although I'll roll my eyes when I see a bolt next to a chockstone :roll:).

I especially appreciate your last comment :2thumbs:

Nat

[AJ]

"Please don't vandalize canyons"

I never really considered bolting vandalizing.



Many do though, as you can see. Personally, I see it as a respect for the land. If I can travel leaving as little of a trace as possible, why wouldn't I? I love being in new places, and the challenge of figuring out problems encountered. I've had the pleasure of a few first ascents and descents, and love the feeling of adventure. I always leave as little as possible. On firsts, it's nice to try to ghost and leave nothing (obviously if safe.) To let others have that same experience of isolation and adventure.


Skill lever or is it that you have to be a skinny ass punk to make it behind the choke stone.


Yep, but even large frame folks can go outward, start down and creep back towards the chokestone on the descent. There's no way I'm fitting behind the chokestone, and I'm fairly short around 5'7 so the bombay is a leg stretch for me. However, I'm still able to downclimb that drop pretty easily...


If I remember correctly I was walking over the "bomb bay" with my toes on one side of the wall and my heals on the other. So I guess the real question is.... is your chest more narrow than your fee. or gut in my case.

Not a chance. You and I are in the same boat; my upper body is definitely bigger than my feet.


As far as skill level goes that comment reminds me of free climbing. Yeah its great if you can impress the ladies with your mad skills but you only get one mistake.

Interesting comparison, except in this case, you have many other options, including using meat anchors or especially the chokestone that is there and usually has a sling... People that are free solo climbing don't have other safety options.


What I'm trying to say is not everyone is under six feet and has shoulders and chest as narrow as their hips. I'd love to be a 5'7" 160lb subaru outback driving rock climber but not going to happen. Anyone that size probably would never see the bolt because they wouldn't have to go out in the crack where there's a 30' drop and a very nasty landing.

So tell me. Who here has never placed a bolt. And who has never placed one for safety when they could have done it without?

I've never placed a bolt in a canyon, and I wouldn't place one if I could have done it without one. That being said, I'm still fine with bolts where they make sense. The Zion water canyons that likely won't have anchor material around; good spot for one. As I mentioned, I consider it a respect for the land; so I'd prefer a bolt in a spot that would leave nasty grooves on a natural anchor. However, usually you can figure something out that will work fine. If there's natural stuff around; why not use it?

Just another opinion,
A.J.

[ratagonia]

"Please don't vandalize canyons"

I never really considered bolting vandalizing. And I don't think I will.

People who scratch their name into the rock on top of Angel's Landing don't consider it vandalism - they're just having fun! Stop being so uptight!

People who hold up a 7-11 at gunpoint don't consider it robbery. They consider it a justifiable redistribution of society's wealth, to compensate for inequities elsewhere in the system.

Tom

[DWayne27]

I wouldn't place one if I could have done it without one. That being said, I'm still fine with bolts where they make sense.

i think that is the best way to look at the whole issue. now obviously it just comes down to 'where they make sense' - which is defined differently for everyone. bolts should always be a last resort and i dont think anyone would disagree

[oldno7]

"Please don't vandalize canyons"

I never really considered bolting vandalizing. And I don't think I will.

People who scratch their name into the rock on top of Angel's Landing don't consider it vandalism - they're just having fun! Stop being so uptight!

People who hold up a 7-11 at gunpoint don't consider it robbery. They consider it a justifiable redistribution of society's wealth, to compensate for inequities elsewhere in the system.

Tom

So--- if you are comparing bolt placement to a crime---shouldn't you be in jail? :ne_nau:

[shaggy125]

I wouldn't place one if I could have done it without one. That being said, I'm still fine with bolts where they make sense.

i think that is the best way to look at the whole issue. now obviously it just comes down to 'where they make sense' - which is defined differently for everyone. bolts should always be a last resort and i don't think anyone would disagree

I also think most of us agree, but I personally still don't think Zero G needs one, which is what the original discussion was about, it of course has changed to weather we should bolt in general or not, that all depends on the situation. I think Tom and Shane are saying a bolt where one is not needed, could be considered vandalizing the canyon. However an example of where a bolt was appropriate was in Keyhole in order to save the tree from being killed by the hundreds who do the canyon every year. Bolts in Pine Creek, Heaps, Imlay... all appropriate in my opinion. In an established canyon that hundreds have been through without bolts (Zero G), to place one just because you can't think of any other way to tackle the obstacle I would call unnecessary. Other options have been presented like using the chockstone, setting up a zip-line, etc... Dropping into an unbeta'd canyon and getting into a situation where a bolt is your only option is one thing, but placing one in an established canyon, of which you have lots of beta on what to expect, seems unneeded to me. I'm not a hardcore anti-bolt purist either (and most aren't) but that wasn't what this thread was originally asking, it was asking if a bolt should be placed in Zero G and I personally don't think this is a "last resort" situation.

[ratagonia]

"Please don't vandalize canyons"

I never really considered bolting vandalizing. And I don't think I will.

People who scratch their name into the rock on top of Angel's Landing don't consider it vandalism - they're just having fun! Stop being so uptight!

People who hold up a 7-11 at gunpoint don't consider it robbery. They consider it a justifiable redistribution of society's wealth, to compensate for inequities elsewhere in the system.

Tom

So--- if you are comparing bolt placement to a crime---shouldn't you be in jail? :ne_nau:

Ah, good to know I can always count on 007 to raise the sniping ante!

As far as I know, I have never placed a bolt illegally.

Not all vandalism is illegal. Not all illegal activities result in prosecution. Not all successful prosecutions result in jail time.

T

[ratagonia]

So--- if you are comparing bolt placement to a crime---shouldn't you be in jail? :ne_nau:

Or perhaps you mean, the analogy was so crude, infantile and pathetic, that just to make it is worthy of punishment...

T

[oldno7]

"Please don't vandalize canyons"

I never really considered bolting vandalizing. And I don't think I will.

People who scratch their name into the rock on top of Angel's Landing don't consider it vandalism - they're just having fun! Stop being so uptight!

People who hold up a 7-11 at gunpoint don't consider it robbery. They consider it a justifiable redistribution of society's wealth, to compensate for inequities elsewhere in the system.

Tom

So--- if you are comparing bolt placement to a crime---shouldn't you be in jail? :ne_nau:

Ah, good to know I can always count on 007 to raise the sniping ante!

As far as I know, I have never placed a bolt illegally.

Not all vandalism is illegal. Not all illegal activities result in prosecution. Not all successful prosecutions result in jail time.

T

Ahh--so at first placing bolts is compared to holding up a 7-11 store.

then you do the old soft shoe shuffle and talk about illegal bolts.

There was no sniping, just holding you accountable for what you posted.

Which of course is a ridiculous comparison is it not.

My point was that if placing bolts is a similar crime as robbing a 7-11 wouldn't you be in jail? Seems like a fair question if your analogy is accurate in your mind.

Yea, I had a guy once tell me if you post something on the internet, expect to have your feet held to the fire. Why should you be any different?

[ratagonia]

"Please don't vandalize canyons"

I never really considered bolting vandalizing. And I don't think I will.

People who scratch their name into the rock on top of Angel's Landing don't consider it vandalism - they're just having fun! Stop being so uptight!

People who hold up a 7-11 at gunpoint don't consider it robbery. They consider it a justifiable redistribution of society's wealth, to compensate for inequities elsewhere in the system.

Tom

So--- if you are comparing bolt placement to a crime---shouldn't you be in jail? :ne_nau:

Ah, good to know I can always count on 007 to raise the sniping ante!

As far as I know, I have never placed a bolt illegally.

Not all vandalism is illegal. Not all illegal activities result in prosecution. Not all successful prosecutions result in jail time.

T

Ahh--so at first placing bolts is compared to holding up a 7-11 store.

then you do the old soft shoe shuffle and talk about illegal bolts.

There was no sniping, just holding you accountable for what you posted.

Which of course is a ridiculous comparison is it not.

My point was that if placing bolts is a similar crime as robbing a 7-11 wouldn't you be in jail? Seems like a fair question if your analogy is accurate in your mind.

Yea, I had a guy once tell me if you post something on the internet, expect to have your feet held to the fire. Why should you be any different?

I'm sorry my point was so difficult to comprehend, #7. In plain english, vandals rarely consider their work vandalism.

Vandalism is, of course, a point of view. Mr. X, placing a bolt in ZG, is not a vandal, he is a citizen doing the community a service by doing the hard work of placing a bolt where one is needed (in his opinion). Just as Mr. J, coming along six weeks later, removes the bolt as a service to the community, as bolts are not needed at 3rd class downclimbs nor next to solid, easy to use chockstones. Both Mr. X and Mr. J are making the world better, and both are considered to be vandals by different members of the community.

Just as Mr. J, nine years earlier, placed several bolts in Quandary Canyon, as a service to the community.

Tom

[oldno7]

I see we're gaining here---
Bolt placing has gone from a felony(armed robbery)
To a misdemeanor(vandalism)
It's really gooder yur helpin me with my plane Inglish. :five:

[hank moon]

Every man's way is right in his own eyes
Proverbs 21:2

[Felicia]

I see we're gaining here---
Bolt placing has gone from a felony(armed robbery)
To a misdemeanor(vandalism)


Either way, as a first time offense, there will be no custody time. :roflol:

I agree with Hank

[oldno7]

[quote=oldno7]I see we're gaining here---
Bolt placing has gone from a felony(armed robbery)
To a misdemeanor(vandalism)


Either way, as a first time offense, there will be no custody time. :roflol:

I agree with Hank

[Felicia]

I also lobbied to get no helmets reduced to a misdemeanor--no luck. This infraction will remain a canyon felony.

I understand the intent of the legislators when the helmet law was drafted and enacted. I do not disagree with the law. Given that punishment has not been legislated, at this time, I accept judicial rulings on an individual case by case basis.

There is more evidence, via these threads, to support the wearing of a helmet than to not wear a helmet.

:popcorn:

[mmac]

This has been an interesting discussion. Everyone seems to agree that bolting should only be used as a last resort. One thing that no one has pointed out is that intellectualdesperado made it through the canyon successfully without the use of a bolt. In this case, especially considering the post-facto beta provided by several different people, this is obviously not a last resort kind of scenario. Additionally, why bother hauling a hammer-drill all the way through in a drybag if you could just use one of the suggested techniques for downclimbing, zipping, or bring a dowel (much lighter) for yourself to wedge if/as needed?

[UtahAdventureGuide]

Just so everyone knows I'm the one who was involved in the heated battle that lead to this thread being posted. I don't like getting involved in bolting debates because it never ends well for anyone.

My position is simple.

We rarely find a canyons anymore that appear untouched, that don't have bolts on every drop and webbing around every tree or chock stone. Zero G is one of those few canyons and I believe it should stay that way.

We did Zero G this weekend at night with only our headlamps. Just before we left I cut 2 pieces of 2x4 about 3' long and drilled 3/4" holes every 6" or so. I bolted the 2 pieces together with 2 3/4" bolts so we could adjust the length. We wedged it just above the Bombay and our larger canyoneer was able to safely rappel down. I stayed above, kicked it lose, and carried it out of the canyon with us. We were then able to downclimb into the final pool. In my opinion this is how canyons like Zero G should be done by larger canyoneers.

Now if the drop was similar to Pine Creek, Behunin, Imlay, or Heaps where it was over a few feet and impossible to downclimb by any canyoneer I would support putting a couple bolts in place.

[DWayne27]

very innovative- good thinking

[SLCmntjunkie]

There are several ways to safely deal with the final problem in Zero Gravity without any bolts in place. I did it recently with a friend who couldn't fit under the chockstone at the bombay. I went under the chockstone and rigged it for his rappel. Using the chockstone does set you up for a swing, a bolt may prevent that, but he had no problem controlling it and by keeping his feet wide and against the walls. I then derigged the rope and climbed down.

here's another video with a quick look at the last problem. The first video posted in this thread loads only part of it ridiculously slow or not at all so I have been unable to watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S10KhezmnIw

[qedcook]

For any dangerous drop, you should consider all options, including bolts. In the rare case that a bolt is CLEARLY the safest option, human safety is ALWAYS the most important factor. Everyone keeps saying that the chokestone will always be there. What if it's not? A flash flood deposited it there, a flash flood can remove it. The leader of the group must decide what is the safest course of action, but go prepared with several options.

[ratagonia]

For any dangerous drop, you should consider all options, including bolts. In the rare case that a bolt is CLEARLY the safest option, human safety is ALWAYS the most important factor. Everyone keeps saying that the chokestone will always be there. What if it's not? A flash flood deposited it there, a flash flood can remove it. The leader of the group must decide what is the safest course of action, but go prepared with several options.

In this case, if the chockstone was not there, there would be no obstacle to the easy downclimb.

There are a FEW places where bolts are necessary, canyoneering, but only a very few. Using the grey matter between your ears, it is usually possible to figure out a less-promiscuous solution.

Tom