Canyon Ratings & Spry Canyon 7-8-08

[canyonguru]

My budy and i tackled Spry canyon yesterday for the first time for both of us. I would have to say that i think spry is a little bit harder than a class 3 canyon and since that Spry flashed on sunday everything was chuck full of water and there was a little bit of quick sand in some places. We got trashed pretty good and it took us about 7.5 hours to complete. most of the anchors are hard to find and there are two raps that are multy raps. If you haven't done this canyon before make sure that you check the next rap to see if you have to do them together. Almost all the pulls are sketchy, just about every rap had really bad rope burns in the rock. All in all i am not sure if i would do Spry agian unless someone wanted me to take them down it. for two people we carried a 200ft rope and a 135ft rope and it worked out pretty well. so if you want to do spry this summer and not get fried by the sun do it soon before all the water is got. but i would have to say that the multiple raps twards the end of the canyon was for sure the high light of the trip you drop so much altitude at the end of Spry. so good luck if any of you head that way. :Ahnuld:

[trackrunner]

I would have to say that i think spry is a little bit harder than a class 3 canyon

Explain :ne_nau:

Class 3 does not have to equal easy.

Rating from ACA site http://www.canyoneering.net/content/index.php?categoryid=23

3 Intermediate Canyoneering
Exposed technical climbing. Down-climbing could be difficult and dangerous; most people will rappel instead. Rope required for belays and single-pitch rappels. Obvious natural or fixed anchors. Retreat up canyon will require ascending fixed ropes. Basic pothole escape techniques (i.e. partner assist, counter-weights) may also be required. See route description for more information.

4 Advanced Canyoneering
Route may involve any combination of the following: 1) difficult and exposed free climbing and/or down-climbing, 2) climbing using direct aid, 3) multi-pitch rappels, 4) complex rope work (i.e. guided rappels, deviations, rebelays), 5) obscure or indistinct natural anchors, 6) advanced problem-solving and anchor-building skills. See route description for more information.

[Jaxx]

Spry was one of my favorites so far. What did you find difficult in the canyon to make it a 4?

[canyonguru]

well i wouldn't say it is a 4 and i know the rating system very well. comparable to other class 3 canyons i would say it is high on the list. the canyon had considerable debri in it from the flash on sunday and i believe we were the first group down. in one of the RD that i read it said that there was a log anchor above your head for one of the raps which i never saw. i am asuming if that RD was correct then that anchor is gone now.

This is a cut out of chris brennens write up

Just a few yards downstream the watercourse turns sharp right and you rappel down a narrow slot using a webbing anchor around an overhead chockstone. It is a 70ft drop into a small pothole/ledge, the exit from which is a 45ft rappel using a log across the narrow slot exit as the anchor.
That anchor is gone now. the pothole was complely full of water and it is a short swim for anyone under 6 foot(not me) over to the pothole ledge where we used our 200ft rope off of the first rap to finish the las 45ft.

[oldno7]

I'm guessing you rapped into the pool(pothole) and pulled your rope?
really don't see a 4 rating anywhere.

[Sombeech]

Welcome to the site by the way. :lol8:

[trackrunner]

oops should have posted this. It is the new/proposed ACA rating system also
http://www.canyoneering.net/content/index.php?categoryid=136



canyonguru got pictures?

[canyonguru]

no we didn't pull the ropes to soon and no its not a 4 canyon. just saying that its harder than any other 3 canyons i have done before. a good example of the new rating system. sorry no pics forgot the digi at home. i was a little worried about the water to bring a camera.

[tanya]

Spry has some tight sqeezes and some tougher rope work. How did you do rappel into the water?

Here is a link to my last trip through Spry. We went with a biology group of kids that were cute and fun.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12001&start=0

This is the rappel I am talking about? I assume you just went straight down though...

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12001&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15


Welcome to the group!

Yeah... There are class 3's and there are class 3's!!!!!! ;) -- and it can change with the weather, time of year, PMS, and other factors.


In Zion here is a quick glance at how Bo and Rank the canyons. They are listed from what we think of as easiest to hardest taking into consideration, rope work, how hard it is for me to keep up with Bo, and other odd things --- the ACA ratings are on there too. I am not changing them until they are no longer proposed but the real deal.
http://www.zionnational-park.com/zion-national-park-canyoneering.htm

[Iceaxe]

Welcome to the forum Canyonguru. :2thumbs:

If you think Zion has some hard 3's you are going to love some of the ones in North Wash..... :five:

As for the "new ACA rating system", it's as flawed as the old one. I hope they trash can the idea as it will just make a giant mess of things if they change. While the current system is flawed at least everyone who sprays beta is using the same system.... this will not happen if they change the way they rate canyons. Having everyone using the same system is a major plus in my book, the new system would have to be MUCH better (and it's not) to make the change a positive...

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Welcome to the forum Canyonguru. :2thumbs:

If you think Zion has some hard 3's you are going to love some of the ones in North Wash..... :five:

As for the "new ACA rating system", it's as flawed as the old one. I hope they trash can the idea as it will just make a giant mess of things if they change. While the current system is flawed at least everyone who sprays beta is using the same system.... this will not happen if they change the way they rate canyons. Having everyone using the same system is a major plus in my book, the new system would have to be MUCH better (and it's not) to make the change a positive...

:popcorn:

I concur, Dr. Ice.

Two of the largest beta-providers (Ice and Moi) have ZERO buy-in to the revised system. (Rich moving forward with it reminds me of a quote I heard recently: "Can open, worms everywhere!").

Tom

[ratagonia]

My buddy and I tackled Spry canyon yesterday for the first time for both of us. I would have to say that I think Spry is a little bit harder than a class 3 canyon and since that Spry flashed on sunday everything was chock full of water and there was a little bit of quicksand in some places. We got trashed pretty good and it took us about 7.5 hours to complete. most of the anchors are hard to find and there are two raps that are multi raps. If you haven't done this canyon before make sure that you check the next rap to see if you have to do them together.

Almost all the pulls are sketchy, just about every rap had really bad rope burns in the rock. All in all i am not sure if i would do Spry agian unless someone wanted me to take them down it. for two people we carried a 200ft rope and a 135ft rope and it worked out pretty well. so if you want to do spry this summer and not get fried by the sun do it soon before all the water is got. but i would have to say that the multiple raps towards the end of the canyon was for sure the highlight of the trip you drop so much altitude at the end of Spry. so good luck if any of you head that way. :Ahnuld:

Ha ha. Yes, the rating "3" covers a lot of ground.

"Multy" or "Multi" raps - the more technical term is multi-stage rappels.

The one under the block is usually done as a multi-stage - it is unfortunate that Chris found a log there on his descent and made it two raps (and mentioned this). There was recently a nice deadman built there by two people who pulled their rope too soon - after sending one person down off a meat belay, they pulled some logs and rocks up from below. Be careful where you get your information from, and please read page 6 of my Zion book. The most important line in there is: "Where reality and this book (or Chris's beta) disagree, make decisions based on reality".

The second multi-stage rap (just after) can be done as a throw-to-guided-rappel to stay dry; and the second part of it is not too hard of a downclimb.

Sounds like Spry is the first "real canyon" you have done. Yup, not everything is absolutely straightforward, even though almost every drop is bolted. Welcome to the real (canyon) world, canyon-grasshopper.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I concur, Dr. Ice.

Two of the largest beta-providers (Ice and Moi) have ZERO buy-in to the revised system. (Rich moving forward with it reminds me of a quote I heard recently: "Can open, worms everywhere!").

Worms everywhere..... :roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

FWIW: Mr. Kelsey's new tech book is coming out next month and also uses the "old" rating system.....

I do know that Tom, MK and myself have all modified the original ACA rankings slightly to take into account the difficult mae-west type stuff...

YMMV

:cool2:

[canyonguru]

mystery,pine creek,keyhole,echo,subway,orderville,spry, is my list. so yes compared to you guys i am for sure a grasshopper. but i am working my way up. and yes tom it is very important where i get my info from. i have your book and have read it quite a bit. thanks for all the coments guys.

[tanya]

mystery,pine creek,keyhole,echo,subway,orderville,spry, is my list. so yes compared to you guys i am for sure a grasshopper. but i am working my way up. and yes tom it is very important where i get my info from. i have your book and have read it quite a bit. thanks for all the coments guys.

Shane has a canyoneering book out too that has been out for quite some time. I like to read both men's personality when it comes to how they explain things.

http://www.cafepress.com/climbutah

[ratagonia]

mystery,pine creek,keyhole,echo,subway,orderville,spry, is my list. so yes compared to you guys i am for sure a grasshopper. but i am working my way up. and yes tom it is very important where i get my info from. i have your book and have read it quite a bit. thanks for all the coments guys.

And you bring forth one of the problems with a Zion-centric canyoneering career - most canyons in Zion are VERY straightforward, and not at all representative of canyons elsewhere in Utah. Even the "easy" canyons elsewhere have a lots more "sports-action" than Zion easy classics.

Thus the Iceman commenteth on North Wash. Lots of sports-action there, often catches people by surprise their first time. :bath:

Beware, and be aware. :moses:

(And, to be fair, my book provides very little information about Spry - that's how you know it is a 'harder' canyon).

Tom :drums:

[ratagonia]

Spry has some tight sqeezes and some tougher rope work. How did you do rappel into the water?


Perhaps Mr. Heaps would like to learn some of the "new tricks", such as setting the rope length, so rappellers just rap off the end of the rope and swim away.

In that under-the-rock rap, there is a small perch that can be had at a foot above the water, where one can disconnect.

But, with me, fair maiden, a guided rappel would be set up to keep fair maidens out of the water (should the water be of an inequitable temperature)...

Tom

[tanya]

Perhaps Mr. Heaps would like to learn some of the "new tricks", such as setting the rope length, so rappellers just rap off the end of the rope and swim away.


He does that and it freaks me out when I run out of rope!!!! :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:




But, with me, fair maiden, a guided rappel would be set up to keep fair maidens out of the water (should the water be of an inequitable temperature)...

Tom

I like that 'fair maiden' part. You are sweet when you loosen up. :nod:

[trackrunner]

Perhaps Mr. Heaps would like to learn some of the "new tricks", such as setting the rope length, so rappellers just rap off the end of the rope and swim away.



He does that and it freaks me out when I run out of rope!!!! :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:

Like in this picture :lol8: :lol8: :lol8:

http://assets.sbnation.com/imported_assets/2915/286430580_uyhpi-m.jpg

[nat]

Welcome to the forum Canyonguru. :2thumbs:

If you think Zion has some hard 3's you are going to love some of the ones in North Wash..... :five:

As for the "new ACA rating system", it's as flawed as the old one. I hope they trash can the idea as it will just make a giant mess of things if they change. While the current system is flawed at least everyone who sprays beta is using the same system.... this will not happen if they change the way they rate canyons. Having everyone using the same system is a major plus in my book, the new system would have to be MUCH better (and it's not) to make the change a positive...

:popcorn:

I concur, Dr. Ice.

Two of the largest beta-providers (Ice and Moi) have ZERO buy-in to the revised system. (Rich moving forward with it reminds me of a quote I heard recently: "Can open, worms everywhere!").

Tom

Yeah, you guys are just lazy. You might have to go and change all your ratings! :haha:

Hey, I have an idea. Perhaps you and Shane think it was a bad idea to expand the old climbing rating system (class 1 thru 6) to differnetiate between different class 5 routes. Why don't we just go back to the old system, and every route from 5.0 to 5.15 would simply be "class 5". For details, just look at the route description. :haha: :haha:

Nat

[tanya]

Perhaps Mr. Heaps would like to learn some of the "new tricks", such as setting the rope length, so rappellers just rap off the end of the rope and swim away.



He does that and it freaks me out when I run out of rope!!!! :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:

Like in this picture :lol8: :lol8: :lol8:

http://assets.sbnation.com/imported_assets/2915/286430580_uyhpi-m.jpg

Yeah :lol8:

[ratagonia]

Welcome to the forum Canyonguru. :2thumbs:

If you think Zion has some hard 3's you are going to love some of the ones in North Wash..... :five:

As for the "new ACA rating system", it's as flawed as the old one. I hope they trash can the idea as it will just make a giant mess of things if they change. While the current system is flawed at least everyone who sprays beta is using the same system.... this will not happen if they change the way they rate canyons. Having everyone using the same system is a major plus in my book, the new system would have to be MUCH better (and it's not) to make the change a positive...

:popcorn:

I concur, Dr. Ice.

Two of the largest beta-providers (Ice and Moi) have ZERO buy-in to the revised system. (Rich moving forward with it reminds me of a quote I heard recently: "Can open, worms everywhere!").

Tom

Yeah, you guys are just lazy. You might have to go and change all your ratings! :haha:

Hey, I have an idea. Perhaps you and Shane think it was a bad idea to expand the old climbing rating system (class 1 thru 6) to differnetiate between different class 5 routes. Why don't we just go back to the old system, and every route from 5.0 to 5.15 would simply be "class 5". For details, just look at the route description. :haha: :haha:

Nat

Lazy? Not I. I just don't see the point in making a more complex system that does not address the main problem - mae west canyons. Rich is an unlikely candidate to improve the system in that direction, since he does not do those kind of canyons.

I'm working on it, slowly.

Climbing ratings work quite well. The Steve Allen PG/R/X/XX system as adjusted by Ram works quite well also; in much the same way. I believe this system will eventually shed light on which canyons are appropriate for which people. I don't see Rich's new system helping in the least.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Yeah, you guys are just lazy. You might have to go and change all your ratings!

Show me a better system and I'll go with it. The currently proposed "revised" system has the same faults as the old system....


Hey, I have an idea. Perhaps you and Shane think it was a bad idea to expand the old climbing rating system (class 1 thru 6) to differnetiate between different class 5 routes. Why don't we just go back to the old system

I think we should compare the new canyon rating system to New Coke.... you remember that fiasco don't ya? New Coke replaces Old Coke, New Coke taste like crap so they bring back Old Coke as Coke Classic.... which soon replaces New Coke.... and now we have Coke Classic which is again just Coke..... but is what really happened was a bunch of folks just got turned off and started drinking Pepsi.....


and every route from 5.0 to 5.15 would simply be "class 5". For details, just look at the route description.

Climbing is a lot different then canyoneering... I can go up Big Cottonwood and the 5.9 routes I climbed in the spring of 1995 are still the same, even if I'm climbing them in the summer of 2007...... canyons go through major changes month to month.....

Heck.... I just look at a simple route like Pinecreek.... I've done that route and never gotten my feet wet (water rating A on the proposed ratings), I've also done that route with a strong flowing current (water rating C2 or C3 on the proposed ratings).... so what is "normal"? Pinecreek is also easier today then it was 10 years ago, two of the old rappels have washed out....

What do you do about the pothole in Neon?..... it changes week to week.... sometimes a 3, sometimes a 4, sometimes a 5.....

Reading the route description is MUCH more important in canyoneering then in climbing....

It seems to me that if you really want a new and better rating system the way to go is.... you get the 4 or 5 major players spewing beta together, you add Rich and Ram to the mix for flavor, lock everyone in a room, and only let them out when they come up with a better system that they all agree to use.....

Anyhoo.... that's my idea of how you create a better rating system, changing from a flawed system to a flawed system just because the first system is flawed is assine.

:popcorn:

[SLCmntjunkie]

Canyons do change a lot and I don't see how any rating system is going to keep up with the changes. It makes it that much more important to read a good description and to be prepared for the worse. I don't think the new system is or should try to replace the actual route description.

Ice, I'm curious to how you think the rating system should handle the constant changes in a canyon. Maybe there should be no ratings at all and you should have to read the route description? But then again, with canyons changing the way they do, how do you know the beta will be accurate?

[stefan]

Canyons do change a lot and I don't see how any rating system is going to keep up with the changes. It makes it that much more important to read a good description and to be prepared for the worse. I don't think the new system is or should try to replace the actual route description.

Ice, I'm curious to how you think the rating system should handle the constant changes in a canyon. Maybe there should be no ratings at all and you should have to read the route description? But then again, with canyons changing the way they do, how do you know the beta will be accurate?

that's what web-based forums are great for, finding out about current conditions. folks should tune into those to find out about stuff.

i think MK is including the forums in his new book.

also in MK's new book, he'll have a web-based component to it with updates and new information.

shane and tom have kept updates using the web ...

[Iceaxe]

Ice, I'm curious to how you think the rating system should handle the constant changes in a canyon. Maybe there should be no ratings at all and you should have to read the route description? But then again, with canyons changing the way they do, how do you know the beta will be accurate?

I believe the ratings system for canyons should just be a rough guideline to help you narrow down your search. People should stop trying to equate canyon ratings to climbing ratings.... that is apples to oranges....

A lot of people bitch because most canyons are 3. But I think that is OK, because your average canyoneer can do a 3 with little problem. Take a canyoneering class and do 3 or 4 routes and most people can do a 3 rated canyon, why try and make it sound difficult.... most canyons are just hiking, swimming and sliding down ropes, I get a good laugh out of those who try and make it sound extreme or something....

The rating also contains more info than just difficulty. It contains time required and water conditions. If it's cold outside and you want a dry canyon then the ratings help you eliminate a bunch of routes right from the get-go, you want an "A" canyon, not a "B" or "C" canyon. If you have 1/2 a day to spend doing canyons you want a I or II, no reason to look at others.

But my biggest concern in all this...... currently everyone is using some form of the same system, to me that is worth a great deal, any system that splits up the rating systems into numerous fractions, no matter how good the system, is a giant step backwards.

Just my 2 cents....

:cool2:

[tanya]

:2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

I just put on my Magic Mod Hat and retitled the thread.... I was going to split it but couldn't really find a good way without hurting one of the topics.

Picture of Ice wearing his Magic Mod Hat :asshat:

[tanya]

I just put on my Magic Mod Hat and retitled the thread.... I was going to split it but couldn't really find a good way without hurting one of the topics.

Picture of Ice wearing his Magic Mod Hat :asshat:


http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/superman.jpg


I prefer this hat :haha: