Bolts versus needless risk

[qedcook]

Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

[R]

Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

If you can't enjoy canyons without damaging them, you have no business there.

[stefan]

perhaps you'd like to start this thread in the canyoneering section.
in any case the bolt/preservation issue is not as cut and dry as you lay out.


welcome to the forum.

[marc olivares]

Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

yes...

[rockgremlin]

Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?


OH BOY......here we go again.... :lol8:

I agree with Stefan here in that this issue isn't as black and white as you put it. In MOST cases, bolts are unnecessary (probably 95%). There are some instances where bolts are needed, but those are usually emergency situations.

For some reason there is a strong correlation between those with little canyoneering experience and those who like to use bolts.

[qedcook]

In response to rockgremlin.

I have tons of canyon experience and I have never placed a bolt in any canyon I have ever been to, climbing or canyoneering.

I agree that natural anchoring can be safely used 95% of the the time, but I'm talking about the other 5%.

[rockgremlin]

I have tons of canyon experience and I have never placed a bolt in any canyon I have ever been to, climbing or canyoneering.

I agree that natural anchoring can be safely used 95% of the the time, but I'm talking about the other 5%.

Well then, looks like we're seeing eye to eye on the issue. I think just about everyone will admit that there are special circumstances where bolts may be required. Heck even the anti-bolt heavy hitters in the canyoneering community recommend taking a bolt kit along in X and R rated canyons.

Oh ya...welcome to the forum!

[qedcook]

I know I'm going to hit a soft spot with people by bringing this canyon up but what does everyone think about Mind Bender? I've never done it but I've seen the pictures of the anchors (who hasn't) and it has to make you wonder if one of those anchors are ever going to give out on someone.

[rockgremlin]

You mean that final rappel? It does look a little dicey rapping from that deadman, but it's held out just fine so far. The trick with that is to double-check and/or rebuild/rebury it if in doubt.

From what I hear, that final rap has been bolted recently anyways...

[stefan]

I know I'm going to hit a soft spot with people by bringing this canyon up but what does everyone think about Mind Bender? I've never done it but I've seen the pictures of the anchors (who hasn't) and it has to make you wonder if one of those anchors are ever going to give out on someone.

if the anchor is constructed/inspected/maintained appropriately then it should work. and as long as there is a sufficient abundance of boulders in that section of canyon, then, IMO, there is no need to even entertain the idea of needing a bolt.

mindbender should be kept au natural.

in regards to the bolt, i hope folks realize that it may not be there in the long term and should come prepared to inspect/construct the anchor.

[ratagonia]

I know I'm going to hit a soft spot with people by bringing this canyon up but what does everyone think about Mind Bender? I've never done it but I've seen the pictures of the anchors (who hasn't) and it has to make you wonder if one of those anchors are ever going to give out on someone.

I TOTALLY AGREE, Q.E.D., those bolts in Mind Bender look totally bogus and are an accident waiting to happen! As a service to the community, they should be removed as soon as someone with the saavy to do so well can get in there.

The geometry in MB is particularly favorable, and there is certainly plenty of deadman building material at the bottom of the rappel, so all but the least-competent should have no problem building a deadman in this location.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Well then, looks like we're seeing eye to eye on the issue. I think just about everyone will admit that there are special circumstances where bolts may be required. Heck even the anti-bolt heavy hitters in the canyoneering community recommend taking a bolt kit along in X and R rated canyons.

Oh ya...welcome to the forum!

Uh, like whom?

The difficulties found in R and X canyons (at least, SLOT-R and SLOT-X canyons) are rarely of a nature that a bolt kit would be useful at all. There are a few canyons where I would carry a bolt kit, but most of those involve long drops (>200 feet expected) with uncertain anchors in *new* canyons; in most *new* canyons, we bring tools (lots of webbing, potshots, omnisling, a strong team with varied skills) and experience to the task, with a zeal for solving the problems, leaving minimal stuff behind and without placing bolts.

There is NEVER the suggestion of compromising personal safety. I am, personally, very aware that what we do has substantial risk, and that ALL the risks that we can manage must be managed. I do not rappel off anchors that are not 100% secure (knock on wood).

Some have argued that by NOT leaving solid, reliable, three-gued-in-bolt anchors at every 5 foot drop, we are being irresponsible with the lives of the clueless noobs who will descend the canyon afterward, drawn by my beautiful pictures on the Latest Rave. This is not a viewpoint I share, in fact, I have an opposite claim: by installing bolts at drops where they are not 'needed', we will communicate to C. Noob that the solution to the problem is to place bolts. C. Noob is ill-served by this message as: 1. bolts are very hard to place in soft rock; and 2. there are plenty of drops out there that surprisingly do not already have bolts installed. C. Noob is better served (and safer) by learning how to build anchors in the wild using primitive tools (webbing, potshots).

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it! (Unless, Q.E.D., you are a sock puppet of Brian Cabe, and have just successfully chummed me).

Tom

[rockgremlin]

with uncertain anchors in *new* canyons; in most *new* canyons,

This is what I meant to say...assuming the worst case scenario for canyons with first descents.

[ratagonia]

with uncertain anchors in *new* canyons; in most *new* canyons,

This is what I meant to say...assuming the worst case scenario for canyons with first descents.

To clarify: we rarely bring a bolt kit, even when doing new canyons. ONLY when we anticipate long drops with uncertain anchors, where there is the possibility of being in the middle of a long drop on a small ledge (or less) and having to fabricate an anchor (for which a bolt kit is pretty much the only solution). We generally bring 300' ropes on this kind of expedition, to lessen the chance of this kind of misadventure. Placing a bolt or two would definitely be considered a "taint", but considerably less of a "taint" than being stuck and requiring rescue (if available).

Tom

[shaggy125]

I personally think the deadman in mindbender is sufficient, the rats nest of backups/equalizers seems to mainly be because the rappel is long, and therefore people tend to think it needs to be backed up 4 or 5 times "just in case." As long as people inspect the main anchor they should be good. Back it up with meat for everyone but the last man, if it doesn't budge for anyone else, what are the chances of it failing for the last man? I've been canyoneering with Tom a fair amount lately, even in some "new" unexplored canyons. It's pretty impressive what can be done with an omnisling and some potshots, we were even able to ghost one canyon on our last trip without compromising safety. Potshots are my new favorite canyoneering tool and if you become an expert at using them like Tom is, they are a very valuable tool. They can be used to build retreivable anchors, used to back up sketchy anchors, used to haul rocks from the bottom of a rap for anchor building, and even used as booties around camp when backpacking (this is an expert only technique), oh yea and they are great for escaping potholes.

[SLCmntjunkie]

You mean that final rappel? It does look a little dicey rapping from that deadman, but it's held out just fine so far. The trick with that is to double-check and/or rebuild/rebury it if in doubt.

From what I hear, that final rap has been bolted recently anyways...

I did mindbender last week and there are two new bolts at the final rappel. It was my first descent so I'm not familiar with what anchor use to be there but there was no sign of a deadman.

[stefan]

I did mindbender last week and there are two new bolts at the final rappel.

yes, these bolts were placed sometime last spring (probably april).

... and they probably won't be around for very long ...


thanks for the info.



It was my first descent so I'm not familiar with what anchor use to be there but there was no sign of a deadman.

the anchor that has commonly been used without incident is a stack of rocks anchoring a rock with a sling tied to it. often when this anchor is constructed, it persists for others to use. however, anyone RE-using an anchor should inspect it thoroughly and rebuild as necessary. be safe.

it is not uncommon that one may come to this exit falls to find no constructed natural anchor. if the natural anchor is not buried and within reach, above the 10-foot drop right before the exit falls, there are boulders which may be used to construct such an anchor.

note this is the crux of the canyon which inspired the canyon's name (see story (http://www.math.utah.edu/~sfolias/canyontales/ctale.php?i=mindbender)).

given the abundance of boulders and the lip of the final pothole, the drop easily lends itself to natural anchors.

see this page for a photographic example:
http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/roost/

[SLCmntjunkie]

I was a little disappointed to see the bolts. I kind of enjoy building natural anchors and trust them over bolts in most cases. I guess nothing was stopping me from building one anyway, it certainly wouldn't of been difficult, but I'm not opposed to using bolts if they are there and in good shape.

[ratagonia]

given the abundance of boulders and the lip of the final pothole, the drop easily lends itself to natural anchors.

see this page for a photographic example:
http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/roost/

And more extensively - http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0403roost/index3.htm

Tom

[trackrunner]

Natural anchors are part of the game. Sometimes bolts just dumb down the canyon (like with Yankee Doodle, etc). No natural anchors, well maybe bolts are needed. When a tree or a chockstone can hold several thousand pounds of pressure why are bolts needed? :ne_nau:

If bolts are your game there are several canyons that have bolts at every drop, stick to those. :nod: (not directed towards anyone, just general observation)

I will be the first to admit my natural anchor skills need to be upgraded (to more of an advanced set). I need to go out with others more experienced (want to go?). For this reason I stay away from those more complex anchor problem canyons.

I agree that every anchor should be inspected. What I don't get is why people suspect natural anchors but not bolts; it's called sandstone for a reason? Just as with natural anchors should be inspected if they were constructed or placed correctly so should a bolt. How do you know the bolts were placed correctly (rock quality, distance, etc), plus the beef of the anchor is hidden in the rock?

play safe & read the route descriptions

[ratagonia]

I will be the first to admit my natural anchor skills need to be upgraded (to more of an advanced set). I need to go out with others more experienced (want to go?). For this reason I stay away from those more complex anchor problem canyons.



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[rockgremlin]

More info and direct download: http://downloads.bs.com/naturalanchors.html

Tom

:haha:

[trackrunner]

More info and direct download: http://downloads.bs.com/naturalanchors.html

Tom

:haha:
All I got was a link to porn :banana: :lol8:

[ratagonia]

More info and direct download: http://downloads.bs.com/naturalanchors.html

Tom

:haha:
All I got was a link to porn :banana: :lol8:

These days, ANY link to a non-existant site ends up at a porn-link site. It's Hef's rule, or something.

Tom :rockon:

[trackrunner]

More info and direct download: http://downloads.bs.com/naturalanchors.html

Tom

:haha:
All I got was a link to porn :banana: :lol8:

These days, ANY link to a non-existant site ends up at a porn-link site. It's Hef's rule, or something.

Tom :rockon:
I know I'm just giving you a hard time back :haha:

[qedcook]

I've always wondered. What's the purpose of cleaning a well-secured, safe bolt once it has been placed? Isn't the damage already done? The point of a bolt-free zone is to preserve the natural fell of the canyon, right? But if you clean a bolt, there's still the hole. Despite my more lenient stance on bolts, I've never placed one and probably never will, simply because I don't want to be the jerk the ruined the canyon for everyone else. But it seems like cleaning a perfectly good bolt is almost as jerky of a thing to do to. No one owns the canyons so no one should place or clean a bolt unless it's necessary.

[stefan]

I've always wondered. What's the purpose of cleaning a well-secured, safe bolt once it has been placed? Isn't the damage already done? The point of a bolt-free zone is to preserve the natural fell of the canyon, right? But if you clean a bolt, there's still the hole.

actually, as i understand it, a bolt can be removed and filled in with epoxy and sand to bring it back to something closer to what it was, certainly as far as our perception goes.

[oldno7]

I love bolts. Sometimes I just place one in a no bolt canyon for fun.
I think that peoples civil rights are being violated if they cannot get through a canyon because of lack of bolts.(life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) I also believe that all canyons should be bolted into ADA compliance. It's a disgrace that some of you go through canyons with no regard to those less fortunate than yourselfs.
I guess I'll save the road into every canyon for another thread.

[stefan]

I love bolts. Sometimes I just place one in a no bolt canyon for fun.
I think that peoples civil rights are being violated if they cannot get through a canyon because of lack of bolts.(life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) I also believe that all canyons should be bolted into ADA compliance. It's a disgrace that some of you go through canyons with no regard to those less fortunate than yourselfs.
I guess I'll save the road into every canyon for another thread.

please tell us what you really think.

[Iceaxe]

Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

From Stevee B a few years back.... I've saved it because it's the most elegant explanation on bolting I have seen to date.

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

:cool2:

[rockgremlin]

I love bolts. Sometimes I just place one in a no bolt canyon for fun.
I think that peoples civil rights are being violated if they cannot get through a canyon because of lack of bolts.(life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) I also believe that all canyons should be bolted into ADA compliance. It's a disgrace that some of you go through canyons with no regard to those less fortunate than yourselfs.
I guess I'll save the road into every canyon for another thread.

I used to think like that. Now I prefer no bolts. What will you do when your opinion changes at some point as well? Will you go pull all of the bolts you have placed in the past to match your current opinion?

[oldno7]

I love bolts. Sometimes I just place one in a no bolt canyon for fun.
I think that peoples civil rights are being violated if they cannot get through a canyon because of lack of bolts.(life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) I also believe that all canyons should be bolted into ADA compliance. It's a disgrace that some of you go through canyons with no regard to those less fortunate than yourselfs.
I guess I'll save the road into every canyon for another thread.

I used to think like that. Now I prefer no bolts. What will you do when your opinion changes at some point as well? Will you go pull all of the bolts you have placed in the past to match your current opinion?

I thought this was "out there" far enough that some would get a good laugh, now I know I needed a bit more extremism.(even when I lean left I'm "right") :fishing:
Did I mention the bolt hangers I've been polishing, man they shine :lol8:

[moab mark]

First I want to say I have not had enough experience in many of these canyons that are being discussed. So maybe i shouldn't even be asking but with that stated, is a couple of well placed bolts (the term well placed is key which is hard to control I understand) better or worse then people leaving lengths and lengths of webbing on natural anchors that are not close enough to the edge or a deadman has to be built which requires leaving webbing behind? Do we consider this littering or just part of the game? Yes it can be cleaned up by some one else and the bolt is permanent but visually what is more of an eye sore. If natural anchors can be ghosted then this is mute. But just in my short experience walking up and seeing webbing laying all over the place isn't to pleasing. A small example is Dragon Fly in moab. Desert Highlights uses a toad stool to rappell the first small drop. It is a long ways from the edge. It is getting serious rope and webbing marks in it that are making it hard to retrieve. When you get to the third rappell a rope has been place placed around a hugh rock that is easily 50 to 100 ft? from the edge. To rig this takes alot of gear and a rope is being left around the rock. Or there is a rock over to the side that has webbing around it that just stays there and rotts in the sun. The picture in mindbender of the deadman looks solid but those rocks had to come from somewhere and stacked up. Now when the next group comes they have to find more rocks etc. Do we feel this is better or worse then a few bolts.
In my other activity, jeeping, stacking rocks is a big arguement. Rocks are carried from long distances through unfortunately lots of bio crypto soil to help make and obstacle capable for lesser jeeps to get up. THe jeep club has even gone out on some of the more diffucult obstacles and put in big BOLTS to winch off of. Which is better?
Mark

[denaliguide]

this is an often used rap station. is this really more asethic than 2 bolts and some chain? it's certainly not safer.

[moab mark]

I find it interesting that everywhere I have been in Zion has bolts. THis is probably due to the amount of traffic etc. Everybody seems to complain about them but I haven't seen many deadmans etc. by a set of bolts. Are most of thes bolts safe? Probably. But if you leave Zion it seems everyone is NO BOLTS. So with the popularity of this sport growing. Those of you who have the skill to place bolts properly, should you be placing some in key spots in other canyons where you know it is only a matter of time before a noobie comes along and places a couple of scratchy bolts? (MindBender). The masses are coming to this sport. I am one of them. The adventure and scenery is hard to stay away from. So it seems that this is going to become the problem in the near future. I know if everyone would get more training on natural anchors, which I agree with but that will be a very small percentage. Most people learn as they go. In this sport that can be dangerous, but that's human nature. They have a buddy that takes them and away they go.

[stefan]

I find it interesting that everywhere I have been in Zion has bolts. THis is probably due to the amount of traffic etc. Everybody seems to complain about them but I haven't seen many deadmans etc. by a set of bolts. Are most of thes bolts safe? Probably. But if you leave Zion it seems everyone is NO BOLTS. So with the popularity of this sport growing. Those of you who have the skill to place bolts properly, should you be placing some in key spots in other canyons where you know it is only a matter of time before a noobie comes along and places a couple of scratchy bolts? (MindBender). The masses are coming to this sport. I am one of them. The adventure and scenery is hard to stay away from. So it seems that this is going to become the problem in the near future. I know if everyone would get more training on natural anchors, which I agree with but that will be a very small percentage. Most people learn as they go. In this sport that can be dangerous, but that's human nature. They have a buddy that takes them and away they go.


the masses HAVE come ... this is an issue that has already seen the light of day and will be no different as time goes on. the idea is to promote the acquiring of skills to manage problems without the general use of bolts. this has been one goal of webforums, canyoneering courses, and some guidebooks/websites over the past decade and beyond.

the mantra i learned from steve allen was ... (paraphrased) bring the skills of your group up to the level of the canyon, don't bring the canyon down to the level of your skills.

while this might sound snobbish or harsh, i think of it more as a fundamental sign of respect for the canyon.

i don't think that this is the philosophy most have for ALL canyons. there are many canyons which have been bolted and are maintained so; zion seems to be the bastion of these. but even so, there are many canyons in zion which aren't bolted and can be maintained au natural.

i do believe that, outside of a certain subset of canyons, the ethic should be to solve problems without bolts or semi-permanent hardware (except in extremely special cases) and to minimize permanent changes/damage caused by equipment and hiking.

this mindset has been shown to be feasible and there are many on these forums who not only promote such skills but share them either in the "classroom" or by just taking folks out on trips. as more enter the sport i think guidebooks/websites will importantly serve to maintain/promote this ethic.

but i don't see how just because more people want in on the "activity" the activity should necessarily change its ethics, especially since most anyone has the ability to acquire the necessary skills.

[rockgremlin]

but i don't see how just because more people want in on the "activity" the activity should necessarily change its ethics, especially since most anyone has the ability to acquire the necessary skills.

yup....education, education, education...

problem solving is part of the sport. bolt-slamming sort of short circuits that aspect.

[rick t]

I cringe every time i see this endless debate coming around again, as most everyones opinions are already set in stone, and nothing ever changes. As often as not some forum newcomer triggers this, stumbling into this minefield with an innocent question. The arrogant and self righteous puritans immediately respond, whether it

[Jaxx]

wow. well put. :2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

WOW!! One of the most eloquent bolt discourses I've read in a long time! Thanks Rick. I found myself laughing and agreeing with you throughout most of it.

I'm a non-bolt guy who used to be a pro-bolt guy. But I'm not so non-bolt that I carry a crowbar around with me, determined to foist my opinions and ethics on others. However, I DO think bolts SHOULD be removed if they have been placed improperly, or are weathered and unsafe.

I also agree that bolt usage isn't something that we can avoid altogether (I can't see even the most vocal non-bolters out there rapping from the Bird's Perch in Heaps from a rock cairn).

All of this said, I place a high degree of importance on education in this sport. There are so many variables out there. Each canyon is different with it's own different and unique set of challenges, and to limit one's skill set is risky.

[denaliguide]

Rick! X2. well put.

[Brian in SLC]

Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

From Stevee B a few years back.... I've saved it because it's the most elegant explanation on bolting I have seen to date.

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

Yep.

Then there's this:


Chris stemmed up the slot as far as possible and placed the second of our three bolts by hand drilling. Earlier we had used webbing and a 60-foot rope to construct etriers (a crude rope ladder). Chris clipped the first etrier in and we were on our way. It was not nearly as simple as it sounds and it was extremely time consuming. Chris did most of the difficult and dangerous climbing and kept prodding Hank and I on.

Chris was greatly worried that someone would loose the energy to climb. Chris had already been through a forced bivouac high on El Captain during a snowstorm. Chris told me that when morning came his partners did not have the energy to help with the extraction, and he didn't want to fall victim to the same circumstance.

The first problem with our aid climbing solution was that we only had two bolts remaining with us after already using one to lower Hank earlier. After the second bolt was placed we had to pull the first bolt and repair it to be used again.

Bolt repair became my specialty, I would carefully disassemble all the tiny parts that make up an expansion anchor and bend or hammer them back to their original condition. I would place all the parts inside my hat to work on them. I was terrified that I would drop a part and destroy our escape. The basic thought running through my mind was "don't **** up".

The sandstone we were drilling was like sugar. Often after we completed drilling a hole it would be too large in diameter for the bolt to seat properly. We solved this problem by cutting 3-inch sections of rubber hose from my Camelback and placing them around the bolt. Then we would hammer the bolt with hose into the oversized hole and tighten the nut down with a wrench. Modifying the bolts with the rubber hose also became my responsibility. Everyone was finding a position where they could most help the team escape and smoothly working together. There were no arguments, second-guessing or bickering. Everyone knew what had to be done and how he could best help.

If you talk the talk, don't be afraid to not walk the walk...

Silly bolts. Climbers, who've had a huge head start on this debate, still can't agree on the darn things either. The arguement does get mired down in bravado, ego, chest thumping, territorialism... I mean with climbers. Canyoneers would never be like that... (see the South Face of Half Dome debate on supertopo if you want to kill some serious time on the climbing bolt thing).

What would a reasonable man do?

-Brian in SLC

[oldno7]

what would a reasonable man do?

Place ever how many bolts deemed necessary to make it out of a percieved life or death situation.

what would a unreasonable man do?

Walk up to his best friends door and tell his wife---ya know Mary Beth--we would have placed a bolt and saved Freds life but--it wasn't worth drilling a hole and defiling a canyon. Holler if I can help with your funeral plans.

[tanya]

What would a reasonable man do?

-Brian in SLC


I thought we were talking about canyoneers? :ne_nau:

:haha:

[stefan]

I cringe every time ...

hi rick, welcome to the forum.

would you perchance be rick thompson?



it would be nice if everyone could just do their own thing and leave well enough alone.


i'd like to ask you about this comment here. where do you draw the line?

in your mind, is it okay if people use a G-pick to modify the sandstone? is it okay to bolt anything one chooses? what about scratching your name into the sandstone? and if i should extend this beyond canyoneering, if i want to construct a trail through cryptogamobiotic soil, is it reasonable? how about getting a bunch of OHVs and building my own track?

i ask these questions sincerely for two primary reasons: they share the following to varying degrees, (1) the effects of long-term changes on the land and (2) the effects these long-term changes have on the people who share this land.

i presume the open-mindedness you're showing towards bolting is based on the assumed safety of bolts, the relative ease of inspection (to some), and the immediacy of use. please expound if i have assumed incorrectly.





Demonstrate your own superiority, or your pure devotion to unperforated rock, or whatever it is that drives your holier than thou mentality, and go for it.


umm ... holier than thou? please. i was following your post up until this point. let me ask you. disregarding the fact that we extensively manipulate the world around us, when we consider our wild canyons on the colorado plateau, what suggests that one has the right to install bolts at one's own discretion? yes, there are canyons with bolts, and many use those bolts, even if they don't believe bolts should be added to canyons where there aren't bolts. how do we get to the idea of let everyone do their own thing? and again, where do you draw the line. (everyone, of course, draws it at different points.)

also, i would like to understand where the difference might lie. is it holier than thou to believe that folks should avoid walking on cryptobiotic soil? not impact ruins and rock art? not build tracks in untrammeled landscape at one's own discretion?



[quote]
First of all, that

[hank moon]

Does ranting against the HTT crowd place one in the HTHTT crowd?

:haha:

[ratagonia]

this is an often used rap station. is this really more asethic than 2 bolts and some chain? it's certainly not safer.

Nice pic.

This was the "before" picture right? You guys cleaned up this big stinkin pile of litter and reduced it to the minimum required to get the job done, right?

Did you take an "after" picture, too?

When I walk a trail in Zion, and see a candy wrapper on the ground, I pick it up and carry it out. Same for excessive webbing on rappel anchors. Rap anchors in popular areas acquire amazing quantities of colorful nylon. Please help by picking up the litter that you see in canyons.

But... let me follow your argument.

Because some people leave a lot of litter behind, we should, as a community, put in litter that is more robust, harder to inspect and contributes to a false sense of security?

Are you one of the people who, in this example, left a whole bunch of litter behind?

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

This was the "before" picture right? You guys cleaned up this big stinkin pile of litter and reduced it to the minimum required to get the job done, right?

Why would they? This is the style. In fact, of you look on someone's website, its says,

"(insert your canyon area here) is a traditional-style canyoneering area. Please do not place bolts."

Well, you gotta take the bad with the worse, in this case. Either way, you end up with litter. Either a whole bunch, or, not as much.


When I walk a trail in Zion, and see a candy wrapper on the ground, I pick it up and carry it out. Same for excessive webbing on rappel anchors. Rap anchors in popular areas acquire amazing quantities of colorful nylon. Please help by picking up the litter that you see in canyons.

Yeah, amazing quantities. Like buried deadman. Miles of sling material. All the heavy handed construction that passes for "unnatural" anchoring. At least you can casually pick up litter. This other stuff is like building a condo. Then, on top of it, we get printed guidebooks and beta spraying websites, and, even guide services inviting the masses to enjoy these fruits. Heck, come one, come all, never mind the consequenses. Really, are the folks profiting from these canyons on public land any different than mining, logging or cattle grazing? Exploitation, pure and simple. Makin' a buck off recreation on public land. Where's your grazing permit? Moooooo. Wish them cattle would stay in the corral. Dang it, Bessie, don't eat that loco weed! Ahh, look what she done now, she pooped all over the rock. Heck, that there is natural.


Because some people leave a lot of litter behind, we should, as a community, put in litter that is more robust, harder to inspect and contributes to a false sense of security?

False sense of security? Like guidebook beta, website guides, guide services all selling adventure on public land like some mickey mouse disney land? Then, having the gall to complain that, oh my, there's litter now? You reap what you sew. Who's the seamstress? Can I get an amen?


Are you one of the people who, in this example, left a whole bunch of litter behind?

Is this goading someone on? My bet is you and your ilk have left a TON more litter in your "unnatural" canyon descents that anyone placing bolted anchors. You could measure your litter in bulk, by weight, by volume, whatever unit of measure you want. How much sling, webbing, rope do you go through each year? How many tons of building material in the form of dirt, rocks, tree bits, gravel do you move? Compare that to the same anchors done with bolts. Bolts, if done right, that would last a community many many years without replacement. A re-usable and sustainable resource, versus digging, burying, leaving, moving, stacking all the material you've affected in the last number of years, in your 100+ canyon days per year. That amount of material would boggle the mind, and fill up many garbage cans. Shoot, most gravel companies and earth movers should be takin' notes.

Carbon footprint, hell, what's your canyon footprint? Makes me think of Coolhand Luke. "I can eat fifty eggs". Now its, "I can rap off a stack of rocks." "Whoa, that's a big drop". "I'll just bury a pack, and use more rocks". Yeah, go man, go.

The point is, you wouldn't have to cut out webbing, slings, ropes, cord, etc, if the anchor didn't contain any of those items, which need replacing and adding to ad infinitum, every month, season, year, over and over. It has an effect. Its not finite, like a nicely bolted anchor is finite.

Has less to do with ability than it does the ego of folks who would dictate the style that others are forced to follow. Instead of saying, "this is a bolt free zone", why not call it what it really is, "this is MY bolt free zone".

Bolt all the drops. You wankers are just playing these silly games to boost your shallow little egos so folks think you're bad ass. Its frickin' rappelling, about the lowest skill of all, after all. Way to go into making it some sport like golf, with all these complicated descending systems and rules. Bolt it, and take the ego out of it, and be done with it. Silly, silly little children. Its not your playground. You will be punished. Now, go stand in the corner and take a time out.

All you really do is descend. Something a less than trained monkey could do. "Ohh, but we use really bad anchors, we're so hardcorp". Yeah, whatever.

What were we talking about again?

-Brian in SLC

[oldno7]

Would I be going out on a limb here to suggest that "maybe" the biggest anti bolt advocates have placed the most bolts? :ne_nau:


I'm sure glad none of this has to do with common sense because that would suggest--use all natural anchors until safety becomes an issue.

[neumannbruce]

We need anchors to do slot canyons. Bolts & Webbing are considered litter. The effects of bolts will be there thousands of years long after their useful life is over. I believe we should leave as little trace as possible so that humans thousands of years from now can experience the place as we did. There might be an occasional chunk of webbing hanging out of a sand pile, however it can easily be removed. Removing bolt scars isn

[stefan]

Would I be going out on a limb here to suggest that "maybe" the biggest anti bolt advocates have placed the most bolts?

you sure do to seem try to paint people as "hypocrites," to use your word of choice, kurt (re: the enviro forum).

simple counterexample, steve allen's one of the biggest anti-bolt advocates and has never placed a bolt. there are many others. some have placed bolts for various reasons and have come to believe and advocate what they believe. that's the way the world turns.

what's your point?

[oldno7]

Would I be going out on a limb here to suggest that "maybe" the biggest anti bolt advocates have placed the most bolts?

you sure do to seem try to paint people as "hypocrites," to use your word of choice, kurt (re: the enviro forum).

simple counterexample, steve allen's one of the biggest anti-bolt advocates and has never placed a bolt. there are many others. some have placed bolts for various reasons and have come to believe and advocate what they believe. that's the way the world turns.

what's your point?

I was simply asking a question hence the question mark.

Your Steve Alan example is a good one.

I was asking a question, you came up with the hypocrite adjective.

This is the bolt war--there is no point :lol8:

[Randi]

This was the
"before" picture right? You guys cleaned up this big
stinkin pile of litter and reduced it to the minimum
required to get the job done, right?

Cabe:Why would they? This is the style. In fact, of you
look on someone's website, its says,
"(insert your canyon area here) is a traditional-style
canyoneering area. Please do not place bolts."

Well, you gotta take the bad with the worse, in this
case. Either way, you end up with litter. Either a
whole bunch, or, not as much.

ratagonia:When I walk a trail in Zion, and see a candy
wrapper on the ground, I pick it up and carry it out.
Same for excessive webbing on rappel anchors. Rap
anchors in popular areas acquire amazing quantities of
colorful nylon. Please help by picking up the litter
that you see in canyons.

Cabe: Yeah, amazing quantities. Like
buried deadman. Miles of sling material. All the
heavy handed construction that passes for "unnatural"
anchoring. At least you can casually pick up litter.
This other stuff is like building a condo. Then, on
top of it, we get printed guidebooks and beta spraying
websites, and, even guide services inviting the masses
to enjoy these fruits. Heck, come one, come all,
never mind the consequenses. Really, are the folks
profiting from these canyons on public land any
different than mining, logging or cattle grazing?
Exploitation, pure and simple. Makin' a buck off
recreation on public land. Where's your grazing
permit? Moooooo. Wish them cattle would stay in the
corral. Dang it, Bessie, don't eat that loco weed!
Ahh, look what she done now, she pooped all over the
rock. Heck, that there is natural.

[color=blue]It

[rick t]

Thank you Brian, well done. Another a little over the top response in an attempt to some balance to the discussion, which is often dominated by the anti bolt crowd. Before I address Stefans lengthy cross examination I will first say that I don

[ratagonia]

Would I be going out on a limb here to suggest that "maybe" the biggest anti bolt advocates have placed the most bolts? :ne_nau:

I'm sure glad none of this has to do with common sense because that would suggest--use all natural anchors until safety becomes an issue.

Perhaps you mean ME, ol' Numero Septo?

I am never shy to form and share an opinion. There are good places for bolts in canyons (in large part limited to Zion) and I have placed quite a few. There's a good chance I have placed more bolts than any other individual for canyoneering in Utah in the last 10 years.

But there are many places bolts do not belong, even in Zion. I believe I have also REMOVED more bolts from canyons in Utah in the last 10 years than any other individual. I have even removed a number of my own bolts.

My total count is probably still on the positive side.

====

But enough of the bragging, back to the argument.

"...use all natural anchors until safety becomes an issue..."

Safety is ALWAYS an issue. You put your life on an anchor, you should know it is good. Period. Natural, manufactured-natural or wholly artificial - anchors need to be 100% solid.

The claim: "natural = unsafe; bolts = safe" is a false dichotomy. Ain't true.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

[quote=Poer]Gotta agree with you of course Brian on some intrinsic level, but what you

[oldno7]

Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

From Stevee B a few years back.... I've saved it because it's the most elegant explanation on bolting I have seen to date.

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

Yep.

Then there's this:


Chris stemmed up the slot as far as possible and placed the second of our three bolts by hand drilling. Earlier we had used webbing and a 60-foot rope to construct etriers (a crude rope ladder). Chris clipped the first etrier in and we were on our way. It was not nearly as simple as it sounds and it was extremely time consuming. Chris did most of the difficult and dangerous climbing and kept prodding Hank and I on.

Chris was greatly worried that someone would loose the energy to climb. Chris had already been through a forced bivouac high on El Captain during a snowstorm. Chris told me that when morning came his partners did not have the energy to help with the extraction, and he didn't want to fall victim to the same circumstance.

The first problem with our aid climbing solution was that we only had two bolts remaining with us after already using one to lower Hank earlier. After the second bolt was placed we had to pull the first bolt and repair it to be used again.

Bolt repair became my specialty, I would carefully disassemble all the tiny parts that make up an expansion anchor and bend or hammer them back to their original condition. I would place all the parts inside my hat to work on them. I was terrified that I would drop a part and destroy our escape. The basic thought running through my mind was "don't f*** up".

The sandstone we were drilling was like sugar. Often after we completed drilling a hole it would be too large in diameter for the bolt to seat properly. We solved this problem by cutting 3-inch sections of rubber hose from my Camelback and placing them around the bolt. Then we would hammer the bolt with hose into the oversized hole and tighten the nut down with a wrench. Modifying the bolts with the rubber hose also became my responsibility. Everyone was finding a position where they could most help the team escape and smoothly working together. There were no arguments, second-guessing or bickering. Everyone knew what had to be done and how he could best help.

If you talk the talk, don't be afraid to not walk the walk...

Silly bolts. Climbers, who've had a huge head start on this debate, still can't agree on the darn things either. The arguement does get mired down in bravado, ego, chest thumping, territorialism... I mean with climbers. Canyoneers would never be like that... (see the South Face of Half Dome debate on supertopo if you want to kill some serious time on the climbing bolt thing).

What would a reasonable man do?

-Brian in SLC

No rebuttal?? :ne_nau:
I would say the statement contradicts the story.
Stefan would label this hypocrisy. :haha:

[ratagonia]

This was the "before" picture right? You guys cleaned up this big stinkin pile of litter and reduced it to the minimum required to get the job done, right?

Why would they? This is the style. In fact, of you look on someone's website, its says,

"(insert your canyon area here) is a traditional-style canyoneering area. Please do not place bolts."

Well, you gotta take the bad with the worse, in this case. Either way, you end up with litter. Either a whole bunch, or, not as much.
...
-Brian in SLC

Oh my!! :eek2: And to think, it was probably my prompting that encouraged you to get into the same-old-same-old conversation - but I was not thinking with half a fifth of Captain Morgan's Truth Serum as a synapse lubricant - though it does seem to have GOTTEN YOU GOING, didn't it. Hope the morning after was not too rough!!!

Tom

[ratagonia]

[quote=rick t] And I am not going to argue with them. Or endanger others by then taking it upon myself to pull those bolts because I don

[Iceaxe]

Would I be going out on a limb here to suggest that "maybe" the biggest anti bolt advocates have placed the most bolts? :ne_nau:

For the record... since I consider myself strong "anti-bolt".... I have removed every bolt I have ever placed with the exception of one. I will eventually yank that critter also....


:cool2:

[Yeti]

Does ranting against the HTT crowd place one in the HTHTT crowd?

:haha:

:roflol:

[ratagonia]

[quote=rick t]
What do I personally see happening, eventually, at say any given big (triple digits) drop in the field? A public, and the canyoneering communitys expectation of a safe trip. If there is at this given drop, a solid natural anchor, of whatever kind, I would expect it may well remain unbolted. The problem here is one of peoples perspective on what is solid, or safe. If it is a 155 footer, and the webbing at the drop is in a foot or two of water, and who knows what under that, like it was the last time I did Mindbender, I think its very likely that people are going to decide that it would be much safer if there were a couple well placed bolts up on the wall. And I am not going to argue with them. Or endanger others by then taking it upon myself to pull those bolts because I don

[stefan]

[quote=rick t] ... At least in his case, his motivation to use this tool was in consideration of his personal safety, an element completely missing from any attempt to equate bolts with ATV

[ratagonia]

and what if it is technically or becomes unlawful to place a bolt.


I cannot think of a LAMER argument against bolts than that the FEDS consider it illegal. And I am not even an anti-Fed type guy, like many of my neighbors here in Kane County. For a couple of reasons:

1. The FEDS have not the slightest idea of what we do. Especially the ones who write the rules.

2. The regulation is a regulation, not a law. While it is pretty close to a law, it really only counts when a court has said yes it does count.

2A. I will fully support your RIGHT to do what you need to protect your life and those in your party. If YOU NEED to place a bolt to safely traverse the canyon, you have the RIGHT to do so. If the feds drag you before the magistrate, I bet the magistrate will side with you. If they bust you, I will be glad to testify as your expert witness. (I perhaps would support a citation for "creating a hazardous situation").

2B. Bolts and Wilderness status are not incompatible. The precedent on the matter: many, many Wilderness areas have been created with many, many, many bolts in place. El Capitan was designated as a Wilderness Area with thousands of bolts in place. I do not know whether the bolts were mentioned in the Wilderness Proposal. Some interesting reading on the matter here: http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pages/polst/31/11

===
From a philosophical viewpoint, from a strategic viewpoint, I believe the anti-bolt crusaders such as myself, are better served by PURSUADING people that this is the preferred viewpoint, than by telling em we have the Feds on our side, and they better watch out!!!!

Tom

[stefan]

I cannot think of a LAMER argument against bolts

touch

[AJ]

[quote=rick t]I consider the G-pick question to be a gratuitous one, not analogous to the bolt issue, but for the record I have to agree with DB- if you

[ratagonia]

[quote=AJ][quote=rick t]I consider the G-pick question to be a gratuitous one, not analogous to the bolt issue, but for the record I have to agree with DB- if you

[ratagonia]

Having done a few canyons with Kelsey, he still carries his G-Pick. I've seen him use it to open a small hole a little to more securely place a hook; and rap off it. In certain circumstances (i.e. good natural holes to either use, or mask the hook hole; small distance, etc) it can be less intrusive than the other methods. A flick of the rope and the hook comes down. Nothing left behind, and in many instances, no visible trace. Not that I condone scarring the rock in any way; but every method needs consideration - and every method is basically an argument over the same aspects; safety vs skill with time as a factor.

The community HAS considered the G-Pick "method", and rejected it. See previous post. You are, of course, welcome to try to resurrect that horse, if you wish. I can imagine more useful places to put your energy.

The Author has also been dishonest about when he uses the G-Pick, which does not help his case. He has said "only on first descents" and "only when absolutely no other option exists". I personally saw him use it on a downclimb in Quandary Direct that had been done without a rope on many occassion, and in other canyons. In Cheesebox there is a GPick scar right next to a secure chockstone. Etc... many examples. Imlay has scars from him - surely he did not think he was doing a first descent in 2004.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Stefan's point is still valid. You are just saying that everyone should have freedom to place a bolt if they want. It's the same concept as the ATV'ers riding wherever they want. Sure, the ATV instance is an exaggerated example; because we all know that when misused, there is a much larger impact; but the concept remains the same. Again, where do we draw the line? Hard question for sure.

That is what communities, courts and individuals do - they draw lines between *bad* and *acceptable*. Some even sneak a *good* in there once in a while. We don't always all draw lines in the same places, and sometimes where some people don't draw the line deeply effects other people. Sometimes the government gets involved.

It is NOT a hard question. We each have answers inside ourselves. They don't always match. The hard question is what to do, besides talk and discussion, about the differences, if anything.

Tom

[ratagonia]

this is an often used rap station. is this really more asethic than 2 bolts and some chain? it's certainly not safer.

My apologies if it was unclear that my question was an ACTUAL question, rather than a rhetorical question.

Did you clean up this rap station, Monsieur Denali?

I have no certainty that it is "not safer". It is hard to tell, it being an uninspectable mess.

Tom

[Scott P]

Concerning the g-pick, as some here know I've been talking to MK and trying to talk him into leaving it out of the new book and have written him a very long "begging session" in doing so. I don't know if I will or will not make an impact at this time, but I'm really hoping. I've also asked MK if he could send out the draft to other canyoneers for comments and that share the same position, but don't know if he has or not. I'll guess I'll ask if I don't here back soon.

[hank moon]

D. the method is not accepted by the community at large

Corollary : Community value of G-pick holes near zero

[denaliguide]

this is an often used rap station. is this really more asethic than 2 bolts and some chain? it's certainly not safer.

My apologies if it was unclear that my question was an ACTUAL question, rather than a rhetorical question.

Did you clean up this rap station, Monsieur Denali?

I have no certainty that it is "not safer". It is hard to tell, it being an uninspectable mess.

Tom

as it was a solo trip it was just me cleaning it up. i took as much of the oldest stuff as i was willing to carry for the next couple of days. this rap station is on the royal arch route on the south side of the grand canyon. the same route as was mentioned recently for the rescue of the two missing hikers.

in my opinion the rock which had all the webbing rapped around it in the crack is suspect. i would have prefered a nice two bolt and chain anchor. this is at an often used station on the only required rappel on the route.

[ratagonia]

this is an often used rap station. is this really more asethic than 2 bolts and some chain? it's certainly not safer.

My apologies if it was unclear that my question was an ACTUAL question, rather than a rhetorical question.

Did you clean up this rap station, Monsieur Denali?

I have no certainty that it is "not safer". It is hard to tell, it being an uninspectable mess.

Tom

as it was a solo trip it was just me cleaning it up. i took as much of the oldest stuff as i was willing to carry for the next couple of days. this rap station is on the royal arch route on the south side of the grand canyon. the same route as was mentioned recently for the rescue of the two missing hikers.

in my opinion the rock which had all the webbing wrapped around it in the crack is suspect. i would have prefered a nice two bolt and chain anchor. this is at an often used station on the only required rappel on the route.

And being in Arizona, I have no opinion as to the suitability of a bolt.

Looked like the penultimate rap in Behunin. Way backcountry - carrying out the trash is somewhat more difficult. Thanks for taking some of it.

Tom

[ratagonia]

It seems amazing to me that as soon as a bolt is placed, however well or un-well, it then becomes an immutable part of the landscape that, at risk of killing other people, should not be removed. The logic escapes me.

I fully support your right to place bolts anywhere you feel appropriate, and certainly anywhere you think it necessary to ensure your party's safety.

To me, these bolts do not become sacred and permanent parts of the landscape at the instant of placement. I hope you will not be offended by my lack of respect for the sacred objects.

Tom

Bolts in Mind Bender have been removed, a nice deadman installed in their place. Building a deadman here is very EZ.

details, pictures:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave

Enjoy (ha ha).

Tom :moses:

[Jaxx]

Nice new TRs on there. Those natural anchors scare me. I am already afraid of heights and bolts give me that false sense of security that I love. I need to do some practicing and then go try Mind Bender. Until then I will keep to the easy canyons. :haha:

[qedcook]

Removing a bolt when it doesn't need removing is just as lame as placing a bolt when it isn't needed. If the bolts were so well placed, why take them out?

[CarpeyBiggs]

If the bolts were so well placed, why take them out?

Simple. They weren't well placed. Huge rope grooves were forming. Sloppy webbing setups. Inefficient rope pulls. And, they just plain weren't necessary there. The simplification of the most exciting feature of the whole canyon. (only exciting feature?)

This canyon had been descended for years very safely, by dozens of parties. I think many of us assume the bolts were placed because one certain author figured his book (and possibly the bolting of that drop) may popularize the route even further...

[ratagonia]

If the bolts were so well placed, why take them out?

Simple. They weren't well placed. Huge rope grooves were forming. Sloppy webbing setups. Inefficient rope pulls. And, they just plain weren't necessary there. The simplification of the most exciting feature of the whole canyon. (only exciting feature?)

This canyon had been descended for years very safely, by dozens of parties. I think many of us assume the bolts were placed because one certain author figured his book (and possibly the bolting of that drop) may popularize the route even further...

The bolts were really well placed in a technical sense - not Mr. K's style, unlikely to be his team (though the dust streaks and possible bolt kit in the picture tend to support WAS his team). Placed in a poor location. Also, very odd, bolts of two different sizes, requiring two sizes of drill bits. Strange.

T

[Wasatch]

Looks like more of a Bollard to me.

[ratagonia]

Looks like more of a Bollard to me.

Intersting...... uh, well maybe.

What do you mean, Wasatch?

Way to shut a conversation down.

T

[Wasatch]

In the old Natural Anchors Workshop, a deadman was buried, a bollard is a stack of rocks. Have things changed? Where's Rich when you need him?

[ratagonia]

In the old Natural Anchors Workshop, a deadman was buried, a bollard is a stack of rocks. Have things changed? Where's Rich when you need him?

Taiwan.

you are correct, it is not, technically, a deadman, but in fact a "cairn". I had expected to cover the whole thing with sand (thus making it a deadman), but that big rock Davey moved down made that rather unnecessary.

A bollard is something else.

Tom

[qedcook]

If the bolts were so well placed, why remove them?

Just extend the webbing a bit to stop the rope burn.

Why was this particular canyon the target of bolt removal? Why not the North Fork of Robbers Roost or East Fork of Bluejohn? They are also in the Tom-declared 'no-bolt' area.

rockgremlin said that the drop was the only challenging thing about the canyon. No one is forcing people to use the bolts. You can still have the challenge of a deadman. It doesn't take the challenge away from those that want it. But now, thanks to Tom's police-ing, people are forced to use a deadman. Challenge is a strange word for danger.

Sometime down the road, someone else is going to feel the need to bolt that drop. Now there will be four holes instead of two, and maybe two shoddy bolts instead of two solid ones.

I say, only place or remove (and if you like, rappel off) bolts when there is a clear risk if you don't.

[CarpeyBiggs]

If the bolts were so well placed, why remove them?

As stated before, they weren't well placed. They were installed well, in a technical sense. They are still not well placed. And there are no holes... The holes have been repaired.


Why was this particular canyon the target of bolt removal? Why not the North Fork of Robbers Roost or East Fork of Bluejohn? They are also in the Tom-declared 'no-bolt' area.

It's a matter of timing, precedence, education, and discouraging further bolting. EFBJ has been bolted for a long time. Mindbender was bolted needlessly. Part of it has to do with discouraging further bolting. If some of the beta-sprayers are promoting always carrying a bolt kit, how many of these bolts are we gonna see? Ever seen East Pasture? It's a complete joke. And the bolts are placed terribly, making the canyon even more unsafe. In East Pasture, it has the result of making you look at a drop, and assume because of the bolts, that it needs to be rappelled, thereby increasing the risk. Some of the easiest, and fun downclimbs I've ever seen, have ridiculous bolts at the top.

While these ones may have not been as bad as East Pasture, they were unnecessary, yet give the impression that carrying a bolt kit into canyons that can easily be descended without is requisite. Like carrying a g-pick into X or R slots... Seen what happened in Egypt 4 lately?


rockgremlin said that the drop was the only challenging thing about the canyon. No one is forcing people to use the bolts. You can still have the challenge of a deadman. It doesn't take the challenge away from those that want it. But now, thanks to Tom's police-ing, people are forced to use a deadman. Challenge is a strange word for danger.

Nothing dangerous about it, unless you are incompetent. The whole sport is "dangerous." But it's a calculated risk. That deadman is hardly more dangerous than rapping off bolts.

And certainly, Tom likes to fuel the bolting fire. But this area is not decreed "no bolt" by Tom, simply because it's on his website. He's just the most vocal. It's accepted by the majority of the canyoneering community.


Sometime down the road, someone else is going to feel the need to bolt that drop. Now there will be four holes instead of two, and maybe two shoddy bolts instead of two solid ones.
Doubt it. It's just not that cool of a canyon.


I say, only place or remove (and if you like, rappel off) bolts when there is a clear risk if you don't.

No clear risk here. Dozens, if not hundreds, have done it quite safely without bolts.

[ratagonia]

Ever seen East Pasture? It's a complete joke. And the bolts are placed terribly, making the canyon even more unsafe. In East Pasture, it has the result of making you look at a drop, and assume because of the bolts, that it needs to be rappelled, thereby increasing the risk. Some of the easiest, and fun downclimbs I've ever seen, have ridiculous bolts at the top.

While these ones may have not been as bad as East Pasture, they were unnecessary, yet give the impression that carrying a bolt kit into canyons that can easily be descended without is requisite. Like carrying a g-pick into X or R slots... Seen what happened in Egypt 4 lately?


Thanks Carpey. I'll put East Pasture on the list for cleanup.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Sometime down the road, someone else is going to feel the need to bolt that drop. Now there will be four holes instead of two, and maybe two shoddy bolts instead of two solid ones.
Doubt it. It's just not that cool of a canyon.


I say, only place or remove (and if you like, rappel off) bolts when there is a clear risk if you don't.

No clear risk here. Dozens, if not hundreds, have done it quite safely without bolts.

One thing I meant to emphasize, but did not take the pictures for, was that there are quite a few rappels (and anchors) before the big drop, all excellently executed off rocks, chockstones and deadmen. So the wadded-panties canyoneer who cannot stomach rapping off a deadman has already spent 2-3 hours installing bolts when they get to the end.

I hope I DID emphasize that the deadman for this rappel is pretty easy to build. As in, really easy, perhaps even qedchef could manage it!

Tom

[ratagonia]

rockgremlin said that the drop was the only challenging thing about the canyon. No one is forcing people to use the bolts. You can still have the challenge of a deadman. It doesn't take the challenge away from those that want it. But now, thanks to Tom's police-ing, people are forced to use a deadman. Challenge is a strange word for danger.

Nothing dangerous about it, unless you are incompetent. The whole sport is "dangerous." But it's a calculated risk. That deadman is hardly more dangerous than rapping off bolts.

And certainly, Tom likes to fuel the bolting fire. But this area is not decreed "no bolt" by Tom, simply because it's on his website. He's just the most vocal. It's accepted by the majority of the canyoneering community.

Overall, I think it is MUCH more dangerous for 'people' to think that drops in the Roost (and for canyoneering in general) will be bolted, and therefore they do not need to carry the tools (webbing, links) or the skills (ie, knowing how to tie-off a rock, how to bury things in the sand, how to stack up rocks) into these wilder-than-Zion canyons.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Nice new TRs on there. Those natural anchors scare me. I am already afraid of heights and bolts give me that false sense of security that I love. I need to do some practicing and then go try Mind Bender. Until then I will keep to the easy canyons. :haha:

Try?

Mind Bender IS an easy canyon.
:cool2:

Tom

[ratagonia]

It's a matter of timing, precedence, education, and discouraging further bolting. EFBJ has been bolted for a long time. Mindbender was bolted needlessly. Part of it has to do with discouraging further bolting. If some of the beta-sprayers are promoting always carrying a bolt kit, how many of these bolts are we gonna see? Ever seen East Pasture? It's a complete joke. And the bolts are placed terribly, making the canyon even more unsafe. In East Pasture, it has the result of making you look at a drop, and assume because of the bolts, that it needs to be rappelled, thereby increasing the risk. Some of the easiest, and fun downclimbs I've ever seen, have ridiculous bolts at the top.

While these ones may have not been as bad as East Pasture, they were unnecessary, yet give the impression that carrying a bolt kit into canyons that can easily be descended without is requisite. Like carrying a g-pick into X or R slots... Seen what happened in Egypt 4 lately?

...

Nothing dangerous about it, unless you are incompetent. The whole sport is "dangerous." But it's a calculated risk. That deadman is hardly more dangerous than rapping off bolts.

And certainly, Tom likes to fuel the bolting fire. But this area is not decreed "no bolt" by Tom, simply because it's on his website. He's just the most vocal. It's accepted by the majority of the canyoneering community.


Well put, Carpey.

And, perhaps you will notice that when I put bolts in or take them out, I post to the forums about it. Unlike those who put the bolts in. So that discussions like this can take place, and people can express their dismay.

Tom

[CarpeyBiggs]

Oh, another one for cleanup... The piton in Poison Springs. Constrychnine, I think. It tends to put the person rappeling over way to the side of the anchor, in a perfect spot to pendulum off that thing. I, personally, looked at that piton and was scared shitless to see a pendulum off of it, which inexperienced folks could do pretty easy. How much longer before that thing gets loose and pulls out?

Oh, and by the way, there's a nice chockstone up and to the right that provides a much safer and easier rappel, if you look for it.

[qedcook]

CarpeyBiggs wrote:

"It's a matter of timing, precedence, education, and discouraging further bolting. Mindbender was bolted needlessly. Part of it has to do with discouraging further bolting."

I can see this a bit, but not a ton. Who decides who the bolt police are?


"Nothing dangerous about it, unless you are incompetent. The whole sport is "dangerous." But it's a calculated risk. That deadman is hardly more dangerous than rapping off bolts."

I agree that canyoneering is a calculated risk, but it's also about managing risk. Driving on the freeway is a calculated risk, but those that manage that risk better than others end up being safer. Every canyoneer that enters mindbender enters with the same calculated risk, but if you manage the risk right, you are much safer than those that don't. If someone feels they are managing their risks by placing a bolt, I couldn't care in the least.

"And certainly, Tom likes to fuel the bolting fire. But this area is not decreed "no bolt" by Tom, simply because it's on his website. He's just the most vocal. It's accepted by the majority of the canyoneering community. "

The majority??? I don't recall when the last time the 'canyoneering community' was polled regarding this question. From my experience most canyoneers don't mind having bolts at dangerous drops.


Tom said "I hope I DID emphasize that the deadman for this rappel is pretty easy to build. As in, really easy, perhaps even qedchef could manage it! " and carpeybiggs said only an incompetent is in danger in mindbender.

I hope you guys are joking. Those are pretty mean slams if taken seriously. It seems at little strange to say that if you know what you are doing, then mindbender presents no danger. Any canyon that has a 150 foot drop presents a danger.

gotta go, but I'll be back. Also, how do you do the quoting text from someone else thing? thanks in advance.

[ratagonia]

Also, how do you do the quoting text from someone else thing? thanks in advance.

Quoting:

EZ version: hit the "quote" button in the upper right corner to start your reply - it quotes the whole message you are replying to.

More complex version: You do the EZ version, then carefully edit the quoted text. There are square bracket tags like html tags, but they are pretty easy to mess up, especially with lots of nested quotes.


and thus, I own your soul...

You can, of course, make up quotes as you go along, too. Use judiciously.

Tom

[Scott Card]

And another piton I placed in Eardley many years ago should be removed probably, if it is still there. Last rap. I placed it there because the chock stone was unseen due to high water and there was no anchor material we could find. So..... piton it was. Come to find out later that had we reached down about two to three feet under water the webbing and chock was still in place. Oh well. It may not even be there. Not one of my favorite canyons and one that I will likely never repeat so I ain't checking or going back to remove it. It must be 5-7 years old now???

Leaving this discussion now. I've had enough fun(?) this week posting on emotional threads. I hope the economy turns around soon. Even the "fun" sites are getting nasty lately.

[CarpeyBiggs]

qed, I see where you are coming from. I really can understand both sides of the debate. I'm honestly not that concerned about the bolts, I'm simply suggesting reasons why one might feel one way or the other. In fact, I rapped off those bolts in mindbender, so...

But, consider this. Most of these canyons would be completely unknown to you if it wasn't for someone who did the route, and provided the beta. Where do you get your beta?

A parallel... If someone put up a new killer climbing route, that ran 5.11, but you can only climb 5.9, would you take a hammer and pound out a hold on that route so you could bang it out too? Would you mind if that happened to one of your routes? Would you justify it to other climbers by saying "don't worry about it, just don't use THAT hold..."

Not a perfect parallel, but similar. Don't try climbing 5.11 until you can climb 5.9 or 5.10. Don't go place bolts in canyons that lie above your skill level to safely descend.

The other thing to consider with placing bolts, it takes considerable skill and judgement. We are talking bolts in sandstone. Every new guy to canyoneering should not be placing bolts. He should not even consider placing bolts to be a mandatory skill. Suggesting that everyone should be carrying bolt kits and bolting drops they are not sure about would be dangerous.

As to the "community," there is no absolute consensus. But, there is a small handful of people who do almost ALL the exploration, publication, and original anchor work of all these canyons that we do after the fact. I consider that a gift, and would not be able to descend many of these canyons without their generosity. As such, I respect the canyons on their terms.

And, to further suggest that there is near unanimous consensus in the canyoneering community, consider the last time you saw a new bolt. Simply stated, there just isn't that many people who actually place bolts, because there are so few places where they are truly needed. I would contend that there are very few canyoneers who carry a bolt kit with them. Therefore, my conclusion is that most of the community is not out there placing bolts, but rather using existing anchors, and that represents a near consensus.

[ratagonia]

It's a matter of timing, precedence, education, and discouraging further bolting. Mindbender was bolted needlessly. Part of it has to do with discouraging further bolting.

I can see this a bit, but not a ton. Who decides who the bolt police are?


Those who take action, one way or another. It is a self-appointment process, both for bolters and for unbolters.

A large part of the intention is to discourage further bolting. I do this BECAUSE I think it is dangerous as a 'general solution' in wilderness canyons to expect bolts to be there (and to thus be unable to create anchors using natural materials on demand).

But really, I am most concerned about people going into canyons thinking "all the anchors are taken care of", like these are sport climbs or something. They're not.



Nothing dangerous about it, unless you are incompetent. The whole sport is "dangerous." But it's a calculated risk. That deadman is hardly more dangerous than rapping off bolts.

I agree that canyoneering is a calculated risk, but it's also about managing risk. ... Every canyoneer that enters mindbender enters with the same calculated risk, but if you manage the risk right, you are much safer than those that don't. If someone feels they are managing their risks by placing a bolt, I couldn't care in the least.

I enthusiastically support your RIGHT to place any bolt you feel is necessary for your safety. I made a careful evaluation that the bolts at this drop do not contribute to the safety of the community, and in fact have a negative impact (see above). I am not asking you to risk your life. I am asking you to be prepared when you go canyoneering in wilderness canyons. If that preparation is carrying 10 lbs of bolts and spending 1 hour placing two good bolts at eash 5' 3rd class downclimb, then so be it.



And certainly, Tom likes to fuel the bolting fire. But this area is not decreed "no bolt" by Tom, simply because it's on his website. He's just the most vocal. It's accepted by the majority of the canyoneering community.

The majority??? I don't recall when the last time the 'canyoneering community' was polled regarding this question. From my experience most canyoneers don't mind having bolts at dangerous drops.

Perhaps the moderators could run a poll.

I posted that I was going to remove said bolts quite some time ago. There were a few objections, but not very many. The response was underwhelming. Other discussions on this and other forums engage these issues. I weigh the discussion, and find support for removal.

Thank you QEDCOOK, for engaging passionately in this discussion. From your previous posts, I read your argument as "You're an Idiot" - it is good to see you engaged in understanding "OUR" point of view, even if you do not adopt it.



I hope I DID emphasize that the deadman for this rappel is pretty easy to build. As in, really easy, perhaps even qedchef could manage it! and carpeybiggs said only an incompetent is in danger in mindbender.

I hope you guys are joking. Those are pretty mean slams if taken seriously. It seems at little strange to say that if you know what you are doing, then mindbender presents no danger. Any canyon that has a 150 foot drop presents a danger.

My apologies if it sounds flippant or is stated in a flippant manner, but we are deadly serious. The skills required to build strong, reliable, tested natural anchors can be learned in about an hour. My not-too-flattering opinion is that anyone who has not spent that time and enters these canyons without those skills (and a bag full of webbing) is a fool.

I'd be glad to teach these skills at any time. Perhaps we should arrange a North Wash trip. Dave's recent anchor efforts in Morrocco and the other 'short little things' are a showcase of clean, efficient 'natural' anchors. High on my list of Tech Tips to put together, but my list does not seem to be getting done, much. Too much time playing on the Internets, or something...

EVERY CANYON presents dangers. Your chances of surving a 60 foot fall are not much better than surviving 150 footer. In this case, there are 5 rappels before the final one, all from natural anchors. No discussion on these? ... but seriously, with or without bolts, drops/rappels in canyons are dangerous. The whole sport is dangerous, heck walking down the canyon with loose rock above you is dangerous. There is nothing "special" about a 150' rap, other than it tends to get people real alert. Even if the rap is only 20 feet, you still need a solid anchor to execute safely. You can build an anchor for a 20'er, but not for a 120'er?


gotta go, but I'll be back. Also, how do you do the quoting text from someone else thing? thanks in advance.

Good at ya, engaging. Perhaps other folks would like to pipe in, too.

Tom

[rockgremlin]

Perhaps the moderators could run a poll.

Tom


Done.

I added the poll to this thread to avoid splitting it in two. I hope you don't mind qedcook.

Flame on... :mrgreen:

[ratagonia]

Perhaps the moderators could run a poll.

Tom


Done.

I added the poll to this thread to avoid splitting it in two. I hope you don't mind qedcook.

Flame on... :mrgreen:

Is it possible to have more nuanced answers? Or am I just being one of those mamby-pamby liberals who cannot stand a "with us or ag'in us" world?


for instance: for, leaning toward, can deal with it either way, leaning against, against.

Tom (as in, ACLU-membership-card-carrying Tom)

[rockgremlin]

Perhaps the moderators could run a poll.

Tom


Done.

I added the poll to this thread to avoid splitting it in two. I hope you don't mind qedcook.

Flame on... :mrgreen:

Is it possible to have more nuanced answers? Or am I just being one of those mamby-pamby liberals who cannot stand a "with us or ag'in us" world?


for instance: for, leaning toward, can deal with it either way, leaning against, against.

Tom (as in, ACLU-membership-card-carrying Tom)


Done! :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Done! :2thumbs:

Looks good. :moses:

T (hangs out with terrorists) J

[jman]

hmm...all of this is very interesting to say the least.

So, a question now - how would one create a natural anchor at the 2nd to last rappel in Mystery Canyon (actually into Mystery Spring with the floating disconnect)? My only idea, would be to use a LONG amount of webbing, or wrap webbing around one of the rocks on the north side of the drop...but then again - that's a long way to fall for a mistake. But the bolts there aren't in sandstone which is more more reassuring, specifically on this rappel.

[ratagonia]

hmm...all of this is very interesting to say the least.

So, a question now - how would one create a natural anchor at the 2nd to last rappel in Mystery Canyon (actually into Mystery Spring with the floating disconnect)? My only idea, would be to use a LONG amount of webbing, or wrap webbing around one of the rocks on the north side of the drop...but then again - that's a long way to fall for a mistake. But the bolts there aren't in sandstone which is more more reassuring, specifically on this rappel.

There is a huge chockstone at the head of the watercourse. Rap down from that, then under the huge boulder and down into the spring. The start would probably be very difficult.

I have not heard anyone suggest that the bolts should be removed at this rappel.

Tom :rockon:

[qedcook]

A large part of the intention is to discourage further bolting. I do this BECAUSE I think it is dangerous as a 'general solution' in wilderness canyons to expect bolts to be there (and to thus be unable to create anchors using natural materials on demand).

But really, I am most concerned about people going into canyons thinking "all the anchors are taken care of", like these are sport climbs or something. They're not.



I agree for the most part.


I enthusiastically support your RIGHT to place any bolt you feel is necessary for your safety. I made a careful evaluation that the bolts at this drop do not contribute to the safety of the community, and in fact have a negative impact (see above).

fair enough. I wasn't there.

Perhaps the moderators could run a poll.

That's pretty darn cool, the polling, but it's only a poll of the site, not the community.


My apologies if it sounds flippant or is stated in a flippant manner, but we are deadly serious. The skills required to build strong, reliable, tested natural anchors can be...

I'd be glad to teach these skills at any time. Perhaps we should arrange a North Wash trip...

That's part of why the comments got under my skin a little bit. I've had a ton of training in all canyoneering skills. I've built over a dozen deadman's and am adamant (though sadly not as much as yourself) about people knowing what they're doing when they are in the canyons. I simply feel bolts should be used a bit more than they are in certain situations.

I also want to make sure you know I appreciate everything you do for the sport and hope and know you recognize the importance of dissenting opinions. Let's continue to hope that the right anchor is used for every drop so everyone remains safe.

[ratagonia]

hmm...all of this is very interesting to say the least.

But the bolts there aren't in sandstone which is more more reassuring, specifically on this rappel.

Sandstone varies quite a bit in hardness. That sandstone there, pretty solid I think, but sandstone none the less.

Tom

[jman]

hmm...all of this is very interesting to say the least.

But the bolts there aren't in sandstone which is more more reassuring, specifically on this rappel.

Sandstone varies quite a bit in hardness. That sandstone there, pretty solid I think, but sandstone none the less.

Tom

that's true it does. And that rappel would be a tough one to pull the ropes if ya did a natural anchor on the giant boulder at the edge of the cliff...good luck to that person/group.