Neon Keeper in its Worst Condition

[bruce from bryce]

A report from the Escalante backcountry ranger:

Pass this along...
----- Forwarded by Brent McGinn/GLCA/NPS on 04/22/2008 07:56 AM -----
Jeff Kracht/GLCA/NPS
04/22/2008 08:35 AM MDT
To
Steve Luckesen/GLCA/NPS@NPS, Brent McGinn/GLCA/NPS@NPS, Dave Goodin/GLCA/NPS@NPS
cc

Subject
Fw: Neon Canyon: keeper pothole above the Golden Cathedral is a trap





To me this is just part of canyoneering.
Do we need to address this?

JEFFRO

----- Forwarded by Jeff Kracht/GLCA/NPS on 04/22/2008 08:33 AM -----
Bob Stevenson@BLM
04/21/2008 05:59 PM MDT
To: Bowdie Pollock/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Larry Glickman/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Shannon Holt/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, David Mecham/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Jeanie Linn/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Scott Brodie/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Torrian Nelson/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Steve Henry/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, August Bernardo/R4/USDAFS@FSNOTES, Jeffrey Lauersdorf/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Jeff Kracht/GLCA/NPS@NPS
cc: Raymond Lee/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM
Subject: Neon Canyon: keeper pothole above the Golden Cathedral is a trap

The keeper pothole above the Golden Cathedral is a true keeper... and a trap. I spoke with 3 experienced canyoneers who reported these conditions. The low water level in the pothole means it is nearly impossible to exit the undercut lip of the pothole on the downstream side. They tried numerous pothole exit techniques, but none worked. Fortunately, they left their rappell rope in place and were able to ascend their rope and retreat up-canyon. If not for that, they would still be in that pothole... I wrote a note and drew a diagram inside the trailhead register to advise others of these conditions. (I also drew another diagram for the front desk.)

Strongly discourage anyone from attempting upper Neon Canyon at this time - conditions are dangerous!

There is currently one party of 3 canyoneers attempting Neon today, Monday 4/21 and Choprock on Tues 4/22. This party is due out on 4/23 according to the permit they wrote at the Egypt trailhead, where their gray crew cab pickup truck, (CA 8K16429) is parked. I have a copy of the permit at my desk, and the original is in the permit box under the front desk.

The hike into the Golden Cathedral from below is not affected by these conditions.

I could not find Dixie in FS Notes, could someone at the front desk pass this on to her please?

Thanks,

Bob Stevenson
Backcountry Ranger
Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument
755 West Main, PO Box 225
Escalante UT 84726
(435) 826-5603

Does anyone know who went into the canyon yesterday?

bruce from bryce

[tanya]

:eek2: Scary! Thanks for posting that Bruce!

[trackrunner]

Kurt "Oldno7" went there this weekend. Suppose to be back today. Neon was on the scheduale.

[Iceaxe]

Thanks Bruce. :2thumbs:

[Jaxx]

Kurt "Oldno7" went there this weekend. Suppose to be back today. Neon was on the scheduale.
:eek2: I wonder if he is one of the groups that got turned around.

[Scott Card]

Thanks Bruce. :2thumbs:Ditto. Thanks. That is one bad keeper that slopes up and back into the pothole so a bag toss is probably useless and there is nothing for the bag to snag on at the exit (at least when I was there). It's a nice sandy exit sloping the wrong direction with not too many features to grab on to. Hate to say it and I am sure to take some flak but this may be a pick and hook type hole if I ever saw one. And it would not be easy since you would have to pick to the side not directly up the exit spot. Helmet on. I would like to see some advice on this pot hole from the gurus.

[Iceaxe]

Someone could just toss a big log into it from the rim (ala the pic below) as they hike to the drop in....

Just a thought.... there is usually more then one way to skin a cat....

http://climb-utah.com/Escalante/Files/neon8.jpg

[Stick]

I would like to see some advice on this pot hole from the gurus.

I am far from being a guru, but here is my experience with it last year. There were four of us, and the pothole was about 7 feet deep. We were able to push 2 people out. We passed them the rope and they set up an meat anchor, the second person backing up the first. They got right next to the wall on the left LDC to maximize friction. We tied a loop in the rope for our first step for the next 2 people, and we were able to climb up the rope/be pulled up out of the pothole.

I'm glad there were four of us for this and not three.

I can't imagine a pack toss working unless you bring a lot of packs or potshots to toss, and there didn't seem to be any good natural features to place a hook. If anyone has any other methods beside pushing and pulling eachother out of it I would be curious to hear how they did it.

I wonder how deep it is this year. If it was much deeper I think it would have given us more problems.

[Scott Card]

Someone could just toss a big log into it from the rim (ala the pic below) as they hike to the drop in....

Just a thought.... there is usually more then one way to skin a cat....



Agreed that there is more than one way to skin that cat. But the year we went in the water was about a foot below the lip. We beached whaled our way out and then checked the depth since I was . We couldn't touch bottom and after jumping in and going under a bit we figured it was more than 10 feet deep water at the point of exit. So throw a BIG log in. :lol8: That photo shows the nasty lip nicely. Now just picture about a 20 degree (?) sandy slope back into the hole as you try to exit. It's potentially a nasty one alright.

[Scott Card]

I am far from being a guru, but here is my experience with it last year. There were four of us, and the pothole was about 7 feet deep. That is the problem with this particular hole and I guess every other hole for that matter. The depth is seasonal and changes with every storm. When we went in we were doing cannon balls off the little rap and then after exiting doing the same back into the hole. Some guys never touched. Finally one went in straight and swam down and finally touched. It was deep when I was there. Gratefully the water was only a foot from the top of the lip.

After looking at that photo again, it seems to me that the hooking would have to be g-picked (the horror) and go vertical to one side or the other and then horizontal for a hole or two. Again, nasty. :twisted:

[Iceaxe]

perhaps something I experimented with about 10 years ago.....

Take a softball and drill a hole through the center. Tie a small rope (6mm to 8mm) through the hole..... then toss the softball down canyon as far as possible. You can chuck a softball a long ways (unless you throw like a girl :haha: ). The softball also bounces nicely off the walls and continues down canyon.... the softball gets snagged and you have your anchor.... this worked well the couple of times I tried it....

...also... I've just tied about 4 hooks into a rats nest and tossed it down canyon. Same idea as above and anyone doing Neon should at least be packing a couple of hooks..... Just have to get the rats nest of hooks to snag something.....

Or maybe something I saw in Dave Blacks new book called an octopus.....

It's similar to the rats nest of hooks but perhaps more refined.... It's basically a pack toss with several hooks attached to the pack with runners.... the idea is to get one of the hooks to catch something... and combined with the pack you have enough friction to climb out.

I'm interested in other ideas.....

:cool2:

[Iceaxe]

After looking at that photo again, it seems to me that the hooking would have to be g-picked (the horror) and go vertical to one side or the other and then horizontal for a hole or two. Again, nasty.

Traditionally hooking was done by drilling a small round hole (not chopping giant craters with a G-Pick).... there is no reason to use a g-pick to hook if you know what you are doing.

The hole in the picture below is about 5 times larger then required. Traditionally about a 3/16 or 1/4" bit was used to drill the hooking holes.

Drilling and hooking is really old school.... Newer methods have yielded better results.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/images/T/bd520200.jpg

[Scott Card]

perhaps something I experimented with about 10 years ago.....

Take a softball and drill a hole through the center. Tie a small rope (6mm to 8mm) through the hole..... then toss the softball down canyon as far as possible. You can chuck a softball a long ways (unless you throw like a girl :haha: ). The softball also bounces nicely off the walls and continues down canyon.... the softball gets snagged and you have your anchor.... this worked well the couple of times I tried it....

...also... I've just tied about 4 hooks into a rats nest and tossed it down canyon. Same idea as above and anyone doing Neon should at least be packing a couple of hooks..... Just have to get the rats nest of hooks to snag something.....

Or maybe something I saw in Dave Blacks new book called an octopus.....

It's similar to the rats nest of hooks but perhaps more refined.... It's basically a pack toss with several hooks attached to the pack with runners.... the idea is to get one of the hooks to catch something... and combined with the pack you have enough friction to climb out.

I'm interested in other ideas.....

:cool2:

I tried the softball thing in the Squeeze. And no, I didn't throw like a girl. :haha: It didn't work because the walls were so polished and there was no feature, choke stone or log jam to catch on. I have often thought I might just take that thing back into Imlay or some such canyon with log jams. Also, the pack with hooks probably wouldn't work because it is sandy for quite some distance from the exit. The only trees/ boulders seemed to be around the corner towards the Cathedral. I even had my cheater stick (home made Happy Hooker) in Neon and honestly, there are not many, if any, features to hook onto at the exit. Perhaps this fall if plans happen and conditions are good/nasty I will try it again with a bunch of different techniques.

[Scott Card]

Traditionally hooking was done by drilling a small round hole (not chopping giant craters with a G-Pick).... there is no reason to use a g-pick to hook if you know what you are doing.

The hole in the picture below is about 5 times larger then required. Traditionally about a 3/16 or 1/4" bit was used to drill the hooking holes.

Drilling and hooking is really old school.... Newer methods have yielded better results.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/images/T/bd520200.jpg

Oops, my bad. I meant drill hole. :oops:

[Iceaxe]

I tried the softball thing in the Squeeze. And no, I didn't throw like a girl. :haha: It didn't work because the walls were so polished and there was no feature, choke stone or log jam to catch on.

Maybe tie a couple hooks to the softball.... you should still be able to toss it a long ways and the hooks might catch something....

....I'm just tossing out ideas....

:popcorn:

[Scott Card]

I tried the softball thing in the Squeeze. And no, I didn't throw like a girl. :haha: It didn't work because the walls were so polished and there was no feature, choke stone or log jam to catch on.

Maybe tie a couple hooks to the softball.... you should still be able to toss it a long ways and the hooks might catch something....

....I'm just tossing out ideas....

:popcorn:

Actually, I think the softball thing isn't a bad idea with the right conditions, ie. log jam or chock stone below the exit. The problem in the Squeeze and this particular hole in Neon is that there aren't many features if any for the thing to snag on with or without the hook. The nice thing about the softball thing is that it would swing back and forth over a log jam or chock stone increasing the chance of getting snagged. The bad thing about it is that it is light weight and wouldn't snag on smaller features like a pack toss with the hooks attached which would drag and tend to dig into the sand.

Heck, I am also just trying to think of natural ways to get out of these things also. Drilling and hooking is the least desirable way to exit on so many levels.

[bruce from bryce]

Question: you leave your rope but cannot get out of the pothole. You ascend back into the canyon and look for a place to climb out. I know there is that double pothole farther back up the canyon so can you get out before that and then bypass this entire section?

[trackrunner]

Heck, I am also just trying to think of natural ways to get out of these things also. Drilling and hooking is the least desirable way to exit on so many levels.

I'm learning escaping from potholes. Q: If you have tried every way to get out and it doesn't work, like these guys, would it then be alright to drill? Or never drill unless your life depends on it. Is this canyon too hard to drill?

[Iceaxe]

With enough time and equipment you can engineer you way through, over, or around any obstacle.

Heck..... if worse comes to worse you can always drill and install a bolt ladder, you could do it in short order and then spiderman right up the overhanging lip..... I have no doubt that I could cross that pothole..... but gosh, where do you draw the line. The trick for me is to do it as fast, safe and naturally as possible. I'm not interested in chopping, chipping and drilling....

:cool2:

[oldno7]

With enough time and equipment you can engineer you way through, over, or around any obstacle.

Heck..... if worse comes to worse you can always drill and install a bolt ladder, you could do it in short order and then spiderman right up the overhanging lip..... I have no doubt that I could cross that pothole..... but gosh, where do you draw the line. The trick for me is to do it as fast, safe and naturally as possible. I'm not interested in chopping, chipping and drilling....

:cool2:

You'd like to think so anyway,
Sounds easy non the internet!
You have no clue, the problem may be that some on here listen to you.

For those who are less talented than shane(myself included) heres some questions:
Can you ascend a rope while free hanging?
Can you get your ascenders over a lip while free hanging?
Can you set up haul systems up to 7:1?(maybe more)
Those are escape back up canyon questions, hoping you didn't pull your rope.
On the downstream side can you get your body up and over a 16" UNDERCUT lip?(the water is at least 8' deep at the exit side)
We tried partner assist and I'm sure I went under at least 8' and no bottom.
Me--I can't hold a drill and hammer over my head while floating on a pack, apparently shane can.
The top side of the downhill lip is probably a 30 deg. slope back into the water, completely covered with 2-3 inches of fine sand,this ramp is probably 30-40 feet long making a potshot useless, there is nothing to set your hooks into(perfectly smooth, featureless rock.)
I will post no more here about this.

I just thought those who may not have shanes manly abilities would like some "real" information.
And one last note--We had a guy go hypothermic which made retreat a necessity. Our next option was a pack raft and trying to launch off that but we had no time.

[stefan]

fluctuating sand and water levels make neon's keeper quite variable in its difficulty. yikes.

for those who haven't read it, here is a story about what can happen with the keeper going alone during less difficult conditions:
Close Call in Canyon Country (http://www.insideoutsidemag.com/archives/articles/2003/10/close_call_in_canyon_country.asp?archive_year=2003&archive_month=10)

[Iceaxe]

Gosh oldno7.... didn't mean to pull your chain.... I meant I have no doubt I could cross that pothole with enough time and equipment.... maybe my post was slightly confusing.....

And yes I've drilled out of a pothole where you could not touch bottom and it was really hard. you have to put a swimmer behind you and he has to continually power you against the rock or you just float away when you strike the drill with the hammer....

But mostly.... I'm just happy you guys are out safe. :2thumbs:

:cool2:

[oldno7]

a couple further notes:

We had several plans in place before getting in the pothole, plans are a must but---cold water will cut those plans short.

I'm absolutely positive that there are people who can get out of this hole.
We may have been able to if time permitted. Somewhere in the planning stage, before entry, an exit strategy should be in place.

I hope the couple from Cal. got through and say -- man that was easy.
I seriously do.

finally- the internet is a great thing(I use it a lot) and speculation is only human nature,I understand that. I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and--- maybe misleading to those with lesser skills. We were trained quite well,we practiced the techniques used to save our lives alot!! We did make rookie mistakes and luckily are here to benefit and learn from them.
I was very confident in our group and we have done many canyons together. We thought we were better than this also but the canyons have the final say. We have so much to learn!

[jwurst]

...Also, the pack with hooks probably wouldn't work because it is sandy for quite some distance from the exit.

Just a thought...
Modify a potshot by sewing a small pocket on the outside in which you can insert a hook with a wide base like a BD grappeling hook. leave a small hole at the bottom of the pocket so that you can stuff the hook's tether through and then use a piece of cord or webbing to secure it solidly to the rope end of the bag so that the hook stays snug in the pocket with the point facing out. Throw the bag into the sand/gravel past the pothole so that the hook is facing down into the ground. When you pull on the rope hopefully the weight of the bag will push the hook into the dirt as you drag the bag. Put maybe several hooks on several bags and add in rope friction over the lip and you might have a solid enough anchor to get out.

[Iceaxe]

I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and---

I think you took some of the posts personally and they were never intended to be.... Everything I seen posted was "what if's" to Scott's request for thoughts on escaping a pothole. We look forward to hearing more about what you tried and why it didn't work. These situations are great learning tools.

Your group got out of the slot with everyone safe... how can you ask for a better result then that?

:rockon:

[cp0915]

For what it's worth, I didn't take Shane's (or anyone else's) comments as an attack on or judgment of Kurt and his group's handling of this situation. I simply took all this as a discussion of possible solutions to a problem.

On another note, I think this is a terrific thread. I'd like to see it evolve into a discussion of the various troublesome canyon obstacles and folks' experiences working through them...with pics!

[Alex]

I tend to agree with cp. Listening to people such as Scott, Shane, stefan, bruce and many other discussing advanced techniques, seems to only add more info to us noobs.

I would appreciate oldno7's follow up to the exit techniques they used, sounds like you guys were the last group who got out successfully.

On the other note, people who take Shane's and Tom's guides to heart and follow it blindly without any on site decision making will have to go through Natural Selection. :roll: Got to have a little bit of common sense to think on your own in these situation. I really appreciate everyone who posts beta online and share their own experiences. It gives us new canyoneers more info to crunch through before plunging into the unknown.

[trackrunner]

Well since my coment started this . . . I was just wondering if drilling was your last option if it would be difficult? Yes. Now I found out.

Glad Oldno7 and his group made it out. When I first read this thread I had a feeling the "experienced canyoneers" must have been his group. I look forward to his report and discussion.

Yes I'm the first to admit it sounds easy reading but in the real world things change.

Glad you guys had a plan of attack and retreat. I learned a lot from that. Fill us more if there is any more ifno. :cool2:

Edit: I saw the pic and noticed the lip. That would be hard to climb, drill, toss, etc, out of. :cool2:

[Alex]

This might sound very naive, but I am a noob so correct me if I am wrong.

Can this be used in extreme situations such as this keeper hole?

Ramset HD22 .22 Caliber Single Shot Tool

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100091715&N=10000003+90401

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImage/2956158f-d162-4b62-9812-6861108c943e_400.jpg

Basically to put a couple of nails in, then put a webbing on it and make a ladder to get out. Just a thought I had last night at 1 o'clock in the morning.

[Brian in SLC]

Can this be used in extreme situations such as this keeper hole? Ramset HD22 .22 Caliber Single Shot Tool

My bet is not. Especially something you could hang body weight from, especially. Plus, be an extra piece of gear that doesn't accomplish any other functions, so, would be dead weight. Not to mention risky.

Best bet is to have some gear that makes escape possible, no matter the conditions. That means carrying a drill and some hooks. With a bat hook, you don't need much of a drilled hole. Easier to drill if you have someone pushing on you, for sure. But, doable if you don't, just takes a bit more time.

And, you have to be saavy on how to climb efficiently with hooks, too. If you done any A4 or A5 (!) aid climbing, that would be a huge benefit.

If you don't have enough cold tolerance, or, the wet/dry suit to hang out long enough to make it work, then that's another problem too, as doing anything technical when you're freezing is very difficult.

Pack tosses can be effective. So can tossing a wad of rope (monkey fist or some such). Expecting a hook to dig into the sand probably won't work. There needs to be enough force to withstand someone's weight on the rope.

Happy hooker can be extremely effective. We've hooked out of pot holes by just using a grappling hook on the end of a happy hooker, and hooking on features that were well out of reach (like 15 feet up). Have a couple of alpine aiders makes a huge difference too, as, you have to be able to effectively weight the hook and then climb out, without blowing it.

Part of my "kit" for canyons when I'm not sure about water levels and for the possibility of keepers, is two bat hooks, two grappling hooks (BD design, great throw), a lightweight hammer (which also extends with a cleaning tool inside the handle with would be great for tossing out of a pothole), a drill and bolt kit, two alpine aiders, and a mess of slings and biners to match. Much prefer not to drill, but, sometimes its gets 'er done.

And, really, unless you're proficient in some of these techniques, you'll probably be spinning your wheels. Well seasoned rock climbers, those with a fair bit of aid climbing under their belt, seem to do prety well as they've had to figure out these types of things "under duress" in the vertical realm before and they usually have a system for ascending these types of problems fairly dialed in.

-Brian in SLC

[Scott Card]

the internet is a great thing(I use it a lot) and speculation is only human nature,I understand that. I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and--- maybe misleading to those with lesser skills.

No arrogance on my part I assure you. I was neither being critical of you or your group or dis-ing you in any way. I saw this as an opportunity to discuss this particular pothole which is a doozy if half full. I also saw this as an opportunity to, in a round about way, spread the word again about this particular spot and the potential danger since Neon and the Cathedral are favorite places to go and an awesome place to rappel. You were wise to turn around and escape. I also thought this as an opportunity to again raise some techniques so as to get some folks thinking and experimenting in the back yard or canyon with some of this stuff. Honestly, much of my initial information and skill came from reading stuff like this on the internet and then going to the climbing store, buying some gear and then going to the back yard or on the roof and trying this stuff. You should have seen me hooking onto my roof with my homemade happy hooker and then testing it with full body weight. I had to patch a small hole after but I had a good time. Wonder what the neighbors thought? :haha:

Let me tell you my favorite tool in my arsenal. It is my friend Spiderman Steve. Amazing climber he is. When I come to a spot like this in Neon, I just usually say, "What do you think?" and then we talk and then I say, "Well Steve, get in and do your thing." He does his thing and then I go in and he pulls me out. It works really, really well. Now don't get me wrong, I think I could handle most potholes but why? I have Spidey along.

Thanks Brian for you list of gear. I think I will add a bit to my kit. And yes, I am confident that somewhere within 15 feet of the lip there is a feature that could be hooked by the happy hooker. Like I say, I will hopefully be there in the fall and I can goof around a bit with this particular pot hole.

[bruce from bryce]

That's one impressive list Brian. Hopefully you get to spread that around amongst your partners and if not I hope they are not carrying redudent equipment.

One thing I learned in my Canyon Rescue Course last week is that, while Tiblocs are a great emergency device that has multiple uses, the confidence I found in using Rope Man's was much greater so I've made the switch.

FOR SALE: Two (2) tiblocs

[Randi]

a couple further notes:

We had several plans in place before getting in the pothole, plans are a must but---cold water will cut those plans short.

Exactly what I heard from the So Cal group. Two of them went in, worked it, and got waaay too cold after a relatively short period of time. They're all experienced and innovative folks too. So they ended up jugging the rope and working up canyon to an exit. I just got off the phone with one of em.


I'm absolutely positive that there are people who can get out of this hole. We may have been able to if time permitted. Somewhere in the planning stage, before entry, an exit strategy should be in place.

I hope the couple from Cal. got through and say -- man that was easy.
I seriously do.

Nope. Wasn't easy or even possible under the circumstances and/or what they were prepared for. They had a lot of time to think about it on the way out, and back at camp, and one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts. Might've given one em lift enough to get out (with aid from another). Perhaps? I remember once on Lake Powell, working for over an hour to deal with a pothole problem. All experienced and strong folks. Innovative and imaginative. Just a damn-hard-to-solve pothole problem. Our ultimate solution came in the form of a little extra lift for one person (using some of our bodies as rafts). Worked like a charm. Remember that one Tom? : )


finally- the internet is a great thing (I use it a lot) and speculation is only human nature, I understand that. I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and--- maybe misleading to those with lesser skills. We were trained quite well,we practiced the techniques used to save our lives alot!! We did make rookie mistakes and luckily are here to benefit and learn from them.
I was very confident in our group and we have done many canyons together. We thought we were better than this also but the canyons have the final say. We have so much to learn!

It's all relative - the easy/difficult thing. There are folks who would determine that the easiest things you do would be extremely difficult for them. That's why these discussions are so valuable. Everyone just needs to take in all that info. and disseminate it with regards to their ability/experience. A pothole problem (just like a math problem) is gonna vary depending on the person dealing with it.

I'm happy you guys, and my So. Cal friends made it out OK. Live and learn, and learn to live next time too! It's easy to underestimate the difficulty of potholes until you start dealing with em up close and personal. I've sure had my problems with them. They scare the crap out of me sometimes.

[Brian in SLC]

That's one impressive list Brian. Hopefully you get to spread that around amongst your partners and if not I hope they are not carrying redudent equipment.

Hmmm. Its not really that much stuff. A petzl rokpecker with a 4" drill doesn't weight or take up that much space. Alpine aiders both fit on a single neutrino carabiner. Hammer is small and light. The hooks, drill, and a few misc. pins and bolts all fit in a very small ditty bag. A happy hooker takes us some space, but, can be so useful.

I always have my own slings, biners and mechanical ascender(s). So, the "extraction kit" weighs WAY less than a rope and takes up very little space in a pack. Not that I wouldn't use is as an excuse to not have to carry the rope...

Hate to have to deploy the heavy equipment, but, its worse style to get killed. Better style sometimes to just jug back up the rope and either bail, or, come back into the canyon downstream of the keeper.

If you know how to top step in an aider, then you can really minimize any damage too.

Very amazing what a talented climber can do. Always nice to have that in the emergency kit too. Ditto a dwarf toss. If its Stevie B, then you got both the dwarf and the climber in one, so, saves a bit of weight. Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

[Scott Card]

the confidence I found in using Rope Man's was much greater so I've made the switch.



WHAT? WHERE? Ok Bruce, who makes the "Rope Man's". How big and heavy are these things. I can see another trip to the roof in my future to test this new equipment. :haha:

[Scott Card]

Exactly what I heard from the So Cal group. Two of them went in, worked it, and got waaay too cold after a relatively short period of time. They're all experienced and innovative folks too. So they ended up jugging the rope and working up canyon to an exit. I just got off the phone with one of em.


Great stuff Randi, Thanks. Hey, did the So. Cal group have a Happy Hooker? and try it?

Also, the body raft thing was one idea I was pondering for this hole. I wonder if three or four canyoneers could push against the walls of the pot hole and against eachother forming a sort of bridge perpendicular to the exit. Then have the smurf climb up and out? Again, this takes a group effort and two or three canyoneers would not work in this situation. Another reason I like groups. More bodies to stack. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

Sweet.... my Ninja Grappling hook comes to the rescue. :haha:

http://www.airsoftadventure.co.uk/ishop/images/1066/grappling_hook.jpg

[Moose Droppings]

one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts.

a while back when that bottomless pothole was turning most folks around, our party was debating the same thing as is being debated now in this forum, only we were at the edge of the keeper. while debating the various "standard" canyoneering solutions to pothole escaping, the party member bringing up the rear, who arived late to the discussion, pulled an inflatable raft from his pack. the pothole became a non-issue.

adding a pack raft to one's canyoneering rack might not be a bad idea when attempting canyons that contain keepers.

[Scott Card]

one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts.

a while back when that bottomless pothole was turning most folks around, our party was debating the same thing as is being debated now in this forum, only we were at the edge of the keeper. while debating the various "standard" canyoneering solutions to pothole escaping, the party member bringing up the rear, who arived late to the discussion, pulled an inflatable raft from his pack. the pothole became a non-issue.

adding a pack raft to one's canyoneering rack might not be a bad idea when attempting canyons that contain keepers.

After I got done laughing my tail off, I would have gladly used the raft. That is awesome. :lol8: No wonder that canyoneer was bringing up the rear. He was packing a raft!

[Iceaxe]

one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts.

You can build a raft from your backpacks by filling everything that will hold air and stuffing the items inside the backpacks. Next you use biners and clip several packs together to create a large raft....

We once made a three pack raft to get over about a 2' lip..... the pack raft provided the needed boost to beach whale over the lip.... not sure how it would work with an 8' lip, other then maybe give you a work platform of sorts.....

Anyhoo.... good stuff being posted.

:2thumbs:

[Randi]

Hey, did the So. Cal group have a Happy Hooker? and try it?

Hey Scott, nice to see your smiling shark! Where you been? I was worried that you quit! No, they didn't have one. I'm hoping Scott (the other one) will post his experience to the canyons group. We had a happy hooker on that lake powell canyon I mentioned, and it did no good at all in that particular case.


You can build a raft from your backpacks by filling everything that will hold air and stuffing the items inside the backpacks. Next you use biners and clip several packs together to create a large raft....

We once made a three pack raft to get over about a 2' lip..... the pack raft provided the needed boost to beach whale over the lip.... not sure how it would work with an 8' lip, other then maybe give you a work platform of sorts.....

Anyhoo.... good stuff being posted.

:2thumbs:

Great idea Shane. One I'll keep in mind if I need a raft and don't happen to have one handy. Like Brian's idea too of lots and lots of slings. Slings save lives! :)

[nelsonccc]

I always carry heads in my bag when I'm doing a route i've not done before. They are remarkably easy to place and a lot stronger than you would think. The idea is that where there's a divot or tiny crack where a hook or anything else won't work. You can generally place a head.

A head is a small loop of cable with a swaged aluminum or copper head. You hold them against the divot or feature and lightly tap with hammer, once they start to stick you can fine tune the placement by using your hook or gate on a biner to tap the edges of the aluminum down.

Trust me it doesnt take much of a feature or divot to make these puppies hold body weight. I've personally used them extensively in Yosemite while climbing Excalibur and The Shield. In fact I can remember pitch 5 of Excalibur like it was yesterday. 5 placements of heads stuck to little more than booger sized peices of rock. Heads are light and cheap. My only caution would be that they are often too good and can become fixed. Experiment first to see just how little tapping is required to support body weight.

[oldno7]

[quote=oldno7]a couple further notes:

We had several plans in place before getting in the pothole, plans are a must but---cold water will cut those plans short.

Exactly what I heard from the So Cal group. Two of them went in, worked it, and got waaay too cold after a relatively short period of time. They're all experienced and innovative folks too. So they ended up jugging the rope and working up canyon to an exit. I just got off the phone with one of em.

Randi
thanks so much for the update,I'm very glad they made it out.

[bruce from bryce]

Having been through the keeper on only two occasions: one a keeper but witht the log in place and last fall when it was a walk out, I don't know if this would work but here goes.

We have been talking about throwing softballs on strings, hooks, a mess of hooks and other devices down canyon up and over the slanted sand hill. But what about throwing our devices around to the right of the exit lip. Seems to me that side was not a straight wall like the left wall was. Anyone seem to remember if this would be a possibility?

[Iceaxe]

oldno7, I'm sure you have thought long and hard about this....

What extra gear would you have wanted with you on the first attempt?

If you went back tomorrow to give it anther go what options or ideas would you attempt next?

Inquiring minds want to know.....

:popcorn:

[oldno7]

Having thought about it I still go back to my last statement on my first post. Our next idea was a pack-raft, I feel 80-90% sure that would work.

Just for the record--I would drill a 100 holes in a life or death type situation if needed. I could care less about anyones ethic while someones life is at risk.

The key element will always be that the minute you drop into the water you have started your hourglass flowing, you have very little time to accomplish your intended results.

Shane--I know what you said was not a personal attack on me but your comments are arrogant.
It's always good to have confidence in your ability but it is completely arrogant to think no canyon has an obstacle you can't conquer. If your whole group is trained in the techniques I mentioned at first they will have a good chance,if they are not someone will likely die! I wish you the best and I have no hard feelings.

[Iceaxe]

Shane--I know what you said was not a personal attack on me but your comments are arrogant.
It's always good to have confidence in your ability but it is completely arrogant to think no canyon has an obstacle you can't conquer.

I think you might be looking at my posts out of context or maybe without my complete background....

In real life I'm an engineer and I really don't know of an obstacle that can not be conquer if you are willing to spend enough time, money and resources. Heck... we have put a man on the moon....

Now some chest thumping... I have personally designed several power planets, oil refineries, dams and mines.... Today I'm working on a project to plug the #2 intake tower on Lake Mead so some repairs and modifications can be made to the penstocks.... understand that this intake is currently under a couple hundred feet of water and we have to float the plug into place and remove it when finished.....

So.... from my point of view.... engineering your way through a canyon is trivial.... if you are willing to commit enough time, money and resources.

And yes, sometimes my posts come across as arrogant to some.... it's not my intention, but it's who I am.... My apologies if you took it that way. No harm intended.

:blahblah:

[Scott Card]

I always carry heads in my bag when I'm doing a route i've not done before. They are remarkably easy to place and a lot stronger than you would think. The idea is that where there's a divot or tiny crack where a hook or anything else won't work. You can generally place a head.



Interesting. Have you ever tried these things in sandstone? I haven't so I am just asking. I remember the first time I tried to use hooks in sandstone and I was only about 6 feet off the deck up Spanish Fork canyon and my second placement blew out a chunk of stone about the diameter of a football. I decided then and there I didn't like hooking on natural features with sandstone. Any experience with these things in sandstone? Anyone?

[Scott Card]

In real life I'm an engineer and I really don't know of an obstacle that can not be conquer if you are willing to spend enough time, money and resources. Heck... we have put a man on the moon....


:blahblah:

You forgot football coach, stubborn Ute fan and accomplished trash talker.... :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

and accomplished trash talker.... :lol8:

I do have a serious weakness for trash talking.....

In sports it's amazing how many people will fold under the pressure of nothing but trash talk, even at the professional level. I won many a race before the green flag ever dropped.... once you are in a competitors head you completely own them.

:five:

[tanya]

In real life I'm an engineer and I really don't know of an obstacle that can not be conquer if you are willing to spend enough time, money and resources. Heck... we have put a man on the moon....


:blahblah:

You forgot football coach, stubborn Ute fan and accomplished trash talker.... :lol8:


There you are! You were the last person tagged on the tag thread!

[tanya]

I think you might be looking at my posts out of context or maybe without my complete background....

In real life I'm an engineer and I really don't know of an obstacle that can not be conquer if you are willing to spend enough time, money and resources. Heck... we have put a man on the moon....

Now some chest thumping... I have personally designed several power planets, oil refineries, dams and mines.... Today I'm working on a project to plug the #2 intake tower on Lake Mead so some repairs and modifications can be made to the penstocks.... understand that this intake is currently under a couple hundred feet of water and we have to float the plug into place and remove it when finished.....

So.... from my point of view.... engineering your way through a canyon is trivial.... if you are willing to commit enough time, money and resources.

And yes, sometimes my posts come across as arrogant to some.... it's not my intention, but it's who I am.... My apologies if you took it that way. No harm intended.

:blahblah:

:hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief:

And he can even handle his hot young stripper wife and do all that work while spending 90% of his time on Bogley! He is a god! :rockon:

[Scott Card]

There you are! You were the last person tagged on the tag thread!

HUH? What thread? I have had to seriously cut back due to work issues. I have mostly been hanging out only in the canyoneering section. Besides, I have "NG, NT, FP and GP" written on my arm. (No gives, no takes, flea proof and girl proof" It worked for me 35 years ago.) :haha:

[ratagonia]

And one last note--We had a guy go hypothermic which made retreat a necessity. Our next option was a pack raft and trying to launch off that but we had no time.

Which points to ==> Very important to manage energy and function, who is in the water and who is not, eating, drinking, staying warm. Which is why it is important to have a plan, and a backup plan, and a plan for what happens when people start getting cold. Going Back UP the rope to the stance and getting warm is an important part of the plan.

Throw a boat anchor from the ledge. Out in a jiffy. Every problem has a solution. The question is: what to carry, in general, which will get you out of the surprise pothole, where exitting back upcanyon is not an option. My choices are: 2 potshots. Then a hook/bolt kit, which consists of 2 BD Talon Hooks, a BD Alpine Aider, a light hammer, a Petzl Pecker and 3/8" drill. Usually toss a couple bolts in there, just in case, and the wrench, blow tube, brush.

That said, even with holes in place, I consider it a "taint" to use the hooks on drilled holes. I certainly consider it a major taint to use the hammer and drill to make new holes. If the old holes don't work, use the drill to clean and deepen the old holes, no hammer required.

Then again, that first big keeper in Imlay, I almost always use a hook in the old holes. Throwing bags works poorly as the runout is flat and sandy. next time.......

In most cases, I give myself 1 hour of trying other things (mostly pot shots) before using the hooks. Depends on the time of day and how the group is doing, etc... And how pure I am feeling at the moment. At 11 pm in the last stretch of Imlay, I plop in and use the hooks and climb the holes, no problemo.

I have not found other hooks useful. I have not found natural edges in potholes that are usable. You could maybe plop a copperhead into Kelsey's GPick holes, but...

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Going Back UP the rope to the stance and getting warm is an important part of the plan.

Not being able to get up the rope with a broken arm was what ultimately killed the lady in Knotted Rope last summer... http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7830

:popcorn:

[Brian in SLC]

At 11 pm in the last stretch of Imlay, I plop in and use the hooks and climb the holes, no problemo.
I have not found other hooks useful. I have not found natural edges in potholes that are usable. You could maybe plop a copperhead into Kelsey's GPick holes, but...

The happy hooker with the Pika Ibis hook worked pretty well for Stevie B on I seem to dimly recall that first keeper pothole. Didn't really find an edge to hook on, per se, but, more of a slightly slanting seam (ended up probably hooking on a subtle change in the seam angle). Quite amazing that it worked at all, but, it did (and I seem to recall Steve 'bout puked just lookin' at it).

I've used 'heads in sandstone, in Moab, if I recall, on an aid climb. Really depends on the placement and the rock, specifically. In general, they really don't work much at all in softer sandstone especially in the same configuration seam that would hold in a harder rock with bigger crystals, like granite. See Peeler Direct in Little Cottonwood Canyon outside SLC for what is possible on granite. I think there's still a couple of mashies fixed on that route. And, truth be told, one of the long time guidebook authors and first ascensionists here in the Wasatch routinely carries and places them, enjoying the "authenticity" air they lend to certain ascents. Ie, if it had a bashie, it was a "good" adventure.

Ahhh...memory...now I recall where I used a head in Sandtone. T'was in Arches, on the backside of Sheep Rock. Yikes. Darn thing worked, too, which really surprised me. My partner cleaned it by just pulling up on it.

Kinda easy to make if you have a swager and the right size wire rope, etc.

I don't consider heads (copper head, aluma-heads, mashies, bashies) for exploration type stuff in the desert. They mangle the rock as bad as a drill bit, but, the placement doesn't look as artifical (another "non-natural" technique!). Head placements, unless you really leave it well welded and fixed, usually get pretty blown out. Not a functional thing for the next folks sometimes. Where as, a small, drilled hole is pretty function for the next party, if need be. Last resort, to be sure.

Does make me wonder about a small blob of lead with a wire in it. You could wrap solder around the loop on a rivet hanger (small loop of wire rope) and my bet is it might work for a short up out of a hole. Hmmm. A few years back a feller who was getting way into aid experiemented with a bunch of different stuff to see what would work ok. His main focus was replacing the bashie on the Black Peeler Direct (which had blown on someone). He wanted to represent the the feeling of insecurity on that placement at the same time having a solution that would "stick around" for awhile too. Was pretty interesting. I seem to recall a bunch of pictures he posted on his research on rockclimbing.com. Might be worth a look see.

-Brian in SLC

[trackrunner]

A current picture of this pothole was posted in the ACA form, post #7.
It is hard, as stated, to tell the gap between the water and the lip.

[skianddive]

A current picture of this pothole was posted in the ACA form, post #7.
It is hard, as stated, to tell the gap between the water and the lip.
This picture that Shane previously posted shows the gap nicely - and the pothole has about the same amount of water - with a conveniently placed log giving some depth perception:

http://climb-utah.com/Escalante/Files/neon8.jpg

[oldno7]

Going Back UP the rope to the stance and getting warm is an important part of the plan.

Not being able to get up the rope with a broken arm was what ultimately killed the lady in Knotted Rope last summer... http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7830

:popcorn:

Exactly right---My initial list included doing haul systems up to 7:1
In saying that the ratio could be reduced by adding in pulleys to offset the friction encountered with biners.(we did not have pulleys)
If you don't know how--learn how. Someones life "will" depend on your ability eventually. This is not aimed at anyone, rather a advanced canyon skill that all should have if attempting unknown conditions.

[nelsonccc]

At 11 pm in the last stretch of Imlay, I plop in and use the hooks and climb the holes, no problemo.
I have not found other hooks useful. I have not found natural edges in potholes that are usable. You could maybe plop a copperhead into Kelsey's GPick holes, but...

The happy hooker with the Pika Ibis hook worked pretty well for Stevie B on I seem to dimly recall that first keeper pothole. Didn't really find an edge to hook on, per se, but, more of a slightly slanting seam (ended up probably hooking on a subtle change in the seam angle). Quite amazing that it worked at all, but, it did (and I seem to recall Steve 'bout puked just lookin' at it).

I've used 'heads in sandstone, in Moab, if I recall, on an aid climb. Really depends on the placement and the rock, specifically. In general, they really don't work much at all in softer sandstone especially in the same configuration seam that would hold in a harder rock with bigger crystals, like granite. See Peeler Direct in Little Cottonwood Canyon outside SLC for what is possible on granite. I think there's still a couple of mashies fixed on that route. And, truth be told, one of the long time guidebook authors and first ascensionists here in the Wasatch routinely carries and places them, enjoying the "authenticity" air they lend to certain ascents. Ie, if it had a bashie, it was a "good" adventure.

Ahhh...memory...now I recall where I used a head in Sandtone. T'was in Arches, on the backside of Sheep Rock. Yikes. Darn thing worked, too, which really surprised me. My partner cleaned it by just pulling up on it.

Kinda easy to make if you have a swager and the right size wire rope, etc.

I don't consider heads (copper head, aluma-heads, mashies, bashies) for exploration type stuff in the desert. They mangle the rock as bad as a drill bit, but, the placement doesn't look as artifical (another "non-natural" technique!). Head placements, unless you really leave it well welded and fixed, usually get pretty blown out. Not a functional thing for the next folks sometimes. Where as, a small, drilled hole is pretty function for the next party, if need be. Last resort, to be sure.

Does make me wonder about a small blob of lead with a wire in it. You could wrap solder around the loop on a rivet hanger (small loop of wire rope) and my bet is it might work for a short up out of a hole. Hmmm. A few years back a feller who was getting way into aid experiemented with a bunch of different stuff to see what would work ok. His main focus was replacing the bashie on the Black Peeler Direct (which had blown on someone). He wanted to represent the the feeling of insecurity on that placement at the same time having a solution that would "stick around" for awhile too. Was pretty interesting. I seem to recall a bunch of pictures he posted on his research on rockclimbing.com. Might be worth a look see.

-Brian in SLC

Oh yes. The Black Peeler. My first introduction to a rivet ladder. I remember imagining that I was on a big wall. Sparked a lot if interest in me to get out to Yosemite. As of 1999 there were still at least one large aluminum bashie fixed on the 2nd pitch I believe?

Agree that sandstone may not hold or work as well as granite for bashie, also agree that if not 'fixed' the resultant area may not be as usable to the next party. I was simply offering up an idea as to possible emergency solutions.

[jwurst]

Here is another thought on getting out of this particular pothole:
When I was there in April 2006 there was a big pile of wood in the constriction just above the pothole. If that pile were still there or if there was other wood available then find a 4 to 5 foot piece of it and tie a rope to both ends. Throw the log across and then pull on each end as needed to get the log in place, jammed across the outlet of the pothole. The outlet is maybe 3 1/2 to 4 feet wide but immedately opens out wider away from the pothole, making a nice place to jam anything that is long enough. From inside the pothole tie the two ropes together to form a V, as high up as you can reach. Then climb up onto the V like a kid standing in a swing at the park, where you will hopefully be high enough to climb out. If the ropes are tied very close to the end of the wood and the V is long then there will be minimal force on the middle of the log so it wouldn't have to be a huge tree to hold. You could pre-tie the ropes together before throwing but then it might be a little harder to get the log into place. I haven't heard of anybody doing this before but it seems viable. I know it wouldn't be common to have material available.

[Canyons12]

Here is another thought on getting out of this particular pothole:
When I was there in April 2006 there was a big pile of wood in the constriction just above the pothole. If that pile were still there or if there was other wood available then find a 4 to 5 foot piece of it and tie a rope to both ends. Throw the log across and then pull on each end as needed to get the log in place, jammed across the outlet of the pothole. The outlet is maybe 3 1/2 to 4 feet wide but immedately opens out wider away from the pothole, making a nice place to jam anything that is long enough. From inside the pothole tie the two ropes together to form a V, as high up as you can reach. Then climb up onto the V like a kid standing in a swing at the park, where you will hopefully be high enough to climb out. If the ropes are tied very close to the end of the wood and the V is long then there will be minimal force on the middle of the log so it wouldn't have to be a huge tree to hold. You could pre-tie the ropes together before throwing but then it might be a little harder to get the log into place. I haven't heard of anybody doing this before but it seems viable. I know it wouldn't be common to have material available.

that's pretty ingenious! you could add to the buoyancy of the log by securing packs and blown up drybags all across it's length.

[jwurst]

I wasn't thinking of floating the log. I was thinking of throwing it out like a potshot but then relying on its rigidness rather than its weight to serve as the anchor.

Now I want to know what you're thinking in terms of using a floating log. :ne_nau:

[Canyons12]

so you're thinking of throwing it out of the pothole, onto the lip of the exit side of the pothole? that sounds like quite a feat. that log would have to be pretty heavy.

the floating log theory goes like this:

two short lengths of rope tied to either end of the log, tied in the middle (or one single length of rope, tied at either ends of the log - either way works). the rope is longer than the log itself by a foot or so. once the log is afloat, that length of rope acts as a sort of "stirrup" that you put your foot/feet into in order to give you enough of a boost to get up and over the exit lip of the pothole. this is assuming that the water level is just under the lip of the pothole. it wouldn't work too well if the water level were several feet lower than the lip of the pothole. it is also assuming that the buoyant force of the log is greater than the gravitational force of the earth acting on your mass. :haha: :haha: :haha: if not, you can always add more bouyancy to the log by attaching floating devices to it.

[jwurst]

so you're thinking of throwing it out of the pothole, onto the lip of the exit side of the pothole? that sounds like quite a feat. that log would have to be pretty heavy.

On this pothole it is maybe 10 feet down and 20 feet across to the lip of the exit, shorter if you walk across the ledge to the right. Unless the log is rotten I think a couple inches in diameter is all you'd need. Supposing such wood was available it wouldn't be a hard toss at all. Unfortunately the same flood that washed the sand out of the pothole probably washed away the wood.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

Sorry I'm late to the party, I hope it's not over yet.

I love reading these posts because I'm always looking for new ideas to escape dangerous keepers.

One idea that I've been thinking about but haven't had the time to work on is to use a modified Drybag or large MSR Dromedary bag with a rope and vinyl hose attached and a small hand water pump or water filter with the filter removed.

The idea is that you would toss the bag as far as you can or as far as your hose would allow and use the pump to fill the bags with water from the keeper.

1 gallon of water weighs about 8.34 lbs. so a 10 liter dromedary bag would weight apx. 22.06 lbs. when filled with water. Drybags can over 100 liters so when filled with water can weigh apx. 220 lbs. when filled with water.

With the right hand pump you could fill 100 liters in only a few minutes and it can be done while floating in the keeper or with enough hose you could fill the bag before entering the keeper. It would also help to keep you warm and busy if you were stuck in the keeper.

I would really appreciate any comments about this idea.

Thanks.
Chris

p.s. patent pending

[Iceaxe]

I know of at least one highly talented team that now has this keeper in their gunsights.... probably a few other teams.... I'm betting someone knocks it off in the next couple of weeks and provides us with some answers.....

....either that or it rains again.... :haha:

:popcorn:

[Scott Card]

Sorry I'm late to the party, I hope it's not over yet.

I love reading these posts because I'm always looking for new ideas to escape dangerous keepers.

One idea that I've been thinking about but haven't had the time to work on is to use a modified Drybag or large MSR Dromedary bag with a rope and vinyl hose attached and a small hand water pump or water filter with the filter removed.

The idea is that you would toss the bag as far as you can or as far as your hose would allow and use the pump to fill the bags with water from the keeper.

1 gallon of water weighs about 8.34 lbs. so a 10 liter dromedary bag would weight apx. 22.06 lbs. when filled with water. Drybags can over 100 liters so when filled with water can weigh apx. 220 lbs. when filled with water.

With the right hand pump you could fill 100 liters in only a few minutes and it can be done while floating in the keeper or with enough hose you could fill the bag before entering the keeper. It would also help to keep you warm and busy if you were stuck in the keeper.

I would really appreciate any comments about this idea.

Thanks.
Chris

p.s. patent pending I think that would be a lot of work when several potshots or packs would do the same thing. Also, one bad seal or leak would screw up the whole idea. I guess you could pump that hole to the point you were standing and then do the body stacking technique. I don't know, seems like a lot of gear and too much room for error. One of those "I'd have to see it" work to believe it techniques.

[Scott Card]

I know of at least one highly talented team that now has this keeper in their gunsights.... probably a few other teams.... I'm betting someone knocks it off in the next couple of weeks and provides us with some answers.....

....either that or it rains again.... :haha:

:popcorn:I wish I had the time. I would love to give it a go.

[trackrunner]

Read a trip report over at yahoo groups, someone has concured it.

They took a 22 foot teliscoping pole attached an aider. Also pushed a log in there that can be used as a raft.

More ideas over at yahoo.

[Iceaxe]

From Doc Rosen....

Neon Keeper descended 3 May 08

On 3 May 2008 Jacen Wray, Randy Willis, Justin Peterson, and I went down to Neon. There is a sign at the register that says it is very dangerous and don't do it. We had lots of time to think about things and had been warned in advance so I would say that we had a few advantages over the previous groups. It was a nice day to do Neon. Not too cold not too warm about a 4 mph breeze. I'd give you the whole trip report but I know that you are only interested in the pot hole. I had done the canyon a couple of years ago and didn't remember the pothole at all. I did see pictures that were posted on the web. Often the pothole sections are deep, dark, and cold. I was pleasantly surprised that this pothole was in a real happy section. We had spent some time exploring higher in the canyon and reached it with nice warm sunlight and then it opens up below to a big open area with trees and plenty of sun. It is a great location to practice pothole escapes.

The first thing I noticed was the log above that people had used as an anchor. There were other anchors available so we moved that log into the pothole. Next we assembled the Rosen pothole escape device. A ridiculous device made of aluminum tubing in 2 foot sections overlapped 5 inches and held together with screws. It was 22 feet long and I attached an aider at the top and another at the about where that ended. Jacen and I rapped into the pool, Justin lowered the device to me and I swam over and stabilized it and Jacen climbed out. Jacen was in the water about 30 seconds. This device only needed to be about half as long as it was and leaving half of it at home would have been a lot easier on my back and shoulders. I had made it up years ago when Tom Jones asked Chris Raver and I to lead the Squeeze on a canyon fest. I had never been through the Squeeze but read about the potholes and so I made it up. We didn't use it in the Squeeze, it was a pain to carry, and I've never carried it in a canyon until now.

Now that we had established that we could exit any time, Jacen jumped back in and we used the log. He sat on the big end of the log and I stabilized it and with that flotation Jacen climbed out again.

Randy Willis jumped in and he found that he could touch the bottom and have his nose above the water. Jacen jumped in again I pushed and Jacen climbed out. I will note that Jacen is small, in good shape, and an excellent climbing and canyoneer. As I stood there pushing Jacen out the soft sand or mud at the bottom gives way and my head went underwater. One can only continue to push for about 5 seconds in such a situation so the climber has to go fast. You may think that you can hold your breath for a minute but the water is cold, you are tired from doing the canyon, your wearing a wet suit, you've been treading water, and your pushing as hard as you can. For me that comes down to one good 5 second push. The climber has to be quick and Jacen surely was.

We figured if one person could push then it ought to be easier with two people so Jacen came back in the pool and Randy and I pushed him out. It was much easier with two pushers.

We did it four different ways. We took turns climbing out. Other ways we thought of were to take a boat like Dave Roberts in his article in Outside Magazine about 1996. A pair of stilts like the ones dry wallers use could come in handy.

Things we learned.

1. The water level changes daily due to evaporation, seepage or new water. Be prepared for different conditions. the water was probably lower for us than for those who tried earlier. That made some things easier and others harder.

2. On the afternoon of 3 May 08 from the top of the water to the rock that the pole came to rest on was approximately 77 inches.

3. There was about 12 inches of soft sand or mud on top of the rock

4. From water to the lip was approximately 19 inches

5. One ought to establish a way into the pothole with the rope and away out. Best to have a separate line with an aider or two attached so that one can climb out of the pothole the same way you went in easily. It is hard to tread water and set up a tibloc. I've done it. I know. It is a lot easier to climb up the aider and then set up you ascending system.

6. We learned from those who went before. We would not have been nearly as prepared if we hadn't been forewarned.

Things we did to improve it for those who follow before water changes everything again.

1. we pushed a lot of dirt and rocks in so that there may be something to stand on. That dirt could have already settled to lower in the pool.

2. We pulled the log out and wedged it below the pool so that you could use it for a pack toss or with a happy hooker. That log may not be there when you do the canyon. You have been warned. I was going to tie some webbing for it for those who followed but the group decided that the next group needs to do some problem solving so they will have to figure out how to use the log.

I love potholes and thrive on this aspect of canyoneering. You may not. Please do not assume because our team did it on 3 May 08 that the conditions will be the same for you. We had good people, lots of experience and a couple weeks to game plan. Jacen was the most important member of our team. You need some larger people for muscle and smaller ones to be pushed. Things change. Be prepared. Know your limits and don't blame me if you misjudge.

I had a great team and it was a pleasure to work with them.

Mark

[Scott Card]

I may be there next week. If so, my plan is to make the traditional attempts using the "normal" stuff in a canyoneers pack with the possible exception of the home made "Happy Hooker" which should be a normal piece of equipment IMHO in a pot hole canyon of unknown condition. I plan on throwing the skilled guy in and watching. :lol8:

[UtahAdventureGuide]

I wouldn't mind doing Neon this season if anybody has room in their group.

[neumannbruce]

5/10/08

My partner and I were able to find a log wedged above a small drop right above the keeper. With this log currently floating in the keeper you can climb out of it with one person stabilizing the log & the other climbing.

Or if you have 2 potshots you can toss them over the large log the other party left behind and pull yourself out. A pack toss would work too, but it seems easier to toss potshots farther.

Remember conditions change - go prepared to reverse if necessary - those logs might not be there tomorrow.

[Iceaxe]

Neon Update: July 5 2008
From a note sent to me by a friend....

It [Neon] was mostly dry with about 4 or 5 pools we waded through - the deepest was just above my waste. The first keeper was almost dry but we bypassed it with the fixed 8mm rope just past it. After we bypassed it we realized that with a boost from a second person we could have defeated it quite easily. The second keeper, with the water level low enough that you don't have to swim to keep your head above water, is easily defeated with two people.

.