When the Polygamists Came to Town

[stefan]

A dark history repeats for religious sect


ALONG THE ARIZONA-UTAH BORDER (CNN) -- A monument stands in a park in the twin cities of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona, commemorating the 263 children taken from their families during a predawn polygamy raid in 1953.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2008/CRIME/04/10/polygamist.towns/art.raid.jpg

This monument near the Utah-Arizona border commemorates the 1953 Short Creek raid. The raid at Short Creek, as these isolated border communities were known back then, holds an ignoble place in the region's history.

It was a public relations nightmare from the start. Crying children in their bedclothes were yanked from their parents in the dark of a July night.

The backlash drove a governor from office and discouraged officials from taking action against the practice of polygamy for half a century. It also left a traumatic imprint in the collective mind of a community that has withdrawn from an outside world it views as evil.

Now, more than 800 miles away, history appears to be repeating itself for the descendants of Short Creek. It is deepening their fear, distrust of outsiders and sense of persecution.

This is the heart of FLDS country; the letters stand for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The polygamist sect is headed by imprisoned "prophet" Warren Steed Jeffs and is said to include some 10,000 followers. Video Watch how the raid reopens old wounds

[DiscGo]

My brother's Mother-in-Law is one of the foremost experts on Polygamy. She once told me that a Sheriff, his deputies and town council were once all kicked out of office in Arizona for stopping Polygamy because even though most people are against it, the majority of the people have an unspoken belief that adults should be able to do what they want behind closed doors. So since that event Polygamists are always charged with child abuse, because everyone is in favor of protecting children.


Adults should be able to do what they want, in their own home. If the law does not want to sanction homosexuality or polygamy that is fine but people should be able to practice it. I don't think anyone should be able to marry before the age of 18 though.

[DiscGo]

I have change my post a couple of times, so I am not going to mess with that post any more but I decided to add a little more:

The older I get the more I realize how many answers I don't have for politics. I have my beliefs and what think would be ideal but it is seemingly impossible to have an answer for everything because most situations seem to be so important to evaluate on a case by case bases.


In the end I am glad that I do not have to solve Global warming, oil prices, what to do about the kid who burned the bridge, etc.

[JP]

Adults should be able to do what they want, in their own home.
That's all fine and dandy when you're an adult making those decisions. But, when you drag minors into the mix that cannot make those decisions is where the problem lies. You have pre-pubescent kids being setup and then married to people three times their age. Let kids grow up and be kids. And take care of the predators that are doing these types of things to them. Let's face it, the kids don not know any better. I'm sure some will speak out in defense of their living situations, but what do they really know? The only thing they know is what they are showed and told day in an day out.

[DiscGo]

I hope you didn't misinterpret what I was saying.

I in no way endorse the marrying off of children (particularly the way they commonly do in polygamists compounds). I think that people under the age of 18 have NO BUSINESS having any sorts of in sexual relationships with people above the age of 18 (minus the 2 year age difference law currently in place).

I do feel that adults should be able to do as they please, but never at the expense of the innocence of children. Look at Lindsay Lohen's parents. That should be criminal :D.

[hank moon]

No home schoolin' for pliggers. :nod:

[JP]

I hope you didn't misinterpret what I was saying.
Na, you're a Republican :haha:

[RedMan]

There is no comparison between what happened in 53 and this month.

The 53 raid was an attempt to obliterate polygamy.
A pure an simple effort to dictate how people will live their lives.
Something that does not sit well with most Americans.

The events in Texas are about child abuse.

The two events are not related nor comparable.

[abirken]

The biggest form of child abuse here is birthing these children into such a sick situation. Brain washing with religon and horrifying these children of the 'outside' world is beyond abuse. How can these children ever recover or adapt? This is nothing short of a cult like situation in my opinion.

[stefan]

When the Polygamists Came to Town
By HILARY HYLTON/ELDORADO
TIME

When a new neighbor moves into Eldorado in Schleicher County, Texas (pop. 2,800), the customary welcome from the locals is a cake and an invitation to church or a community event. But residents found the newcomers distant and unresponsive to their gestures of friendship. Four years ago, posing as Utah businessmen, David Allred and a small group of companions said they had come to Eldorado to build a hunting and game preserve in what was once the Red Cheek Ranch. That wasn't surprising. While most people in Schleicher County work in the oil field support business, some ranch or farm, and others have turned to eco-tourism offering mountain bike trails, wildlife tours and stargazing parties. Soon, enough, however, the community discovered Allred's real plans.

"We flushed them out in six weeks," says Randy Mankin, editor and publisher of the weekly El Dorado Success, circulation 1,200. Sitting in an old office chair amidst an archive of yellowing newspapers and modern computer equipment, he says the massive construction at the Red Cheek site sparked suspicions. When the paper checked Allred's Utah connections, it discovered that the men were in Eldorado to set up a large gated compound for the Fundamentalist Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), a religious group that believes in "celestial marriage"

[oldno7]

No home schoolin' for pliggers. :nod:

Your right Hank--because by the age 10 the boys are put to work, mostly in construction. They are never paid, their wage is deposited into the church. This is a well known fact here in Southern Utah. I actually have evidence but don't think it is pertinent to this conversation.
I'm not sure who is the worse drain on the American economy--Pligs or Illegals.

[Deathcricket]

I'm not sure who is the worse drain on the American economy--Pligs or Illegals.

Sheer volume = Illigals
Per person = Pligs

I'm sure someone has some hard data though.
:ne_nau:

[stefan]

Judge tightens reins at FLDS hearing

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- Children at a polygamist sect under investigation for child abuse are taught that disobeying orders leads to eternal damnation, said a child psychiatrist at a hearing Friday.

Bruce Perry said he has worked with families involved with groups such as the Branch Davidian sect in Waco, Texas, as well as some smaller groups, and has had some experience dealing with FLDS members.

He testified on the second day of a hearing aimed at determining who gets custody of more than 400 children removed from the FLDS' Texas ranch earlier the month. The FLDS, a Mormon offshoot, practices polygamy, and critics claim the group forces girls as young as 13 into marriage and motherhood. Sect members, however, deny that any abuse takes place.

Young children are not mature enough to enter into a sexual relationship or a marriage, Perry testified.

But while he said he considered the FLDS a separatist group, he acknowledged doing little reading on their doctrine and said he has not spoken to its leaders. He said he has met with two members of the group and spoken to them about their beliefs, and has met with young FLDS women to understand their community.

Defense attorneys argued that Perry's knowledge of the FLDS is not broad enough for him to form opinions.

Questioning was fragmented Friday, as Judge Barbara Walther seemed determined to keep tighter control on the proceedings than on Thursday, when chaos reigned and testimony stretched into the night. Walter said Friday testimony would end by 4 p.m (5 p.m. ET).

Walther must determine whether the state acted properly in removing the children during an April 4 raid at the ranch. The raid stemmed from a series of phone calls in late March from a 16-year-old officials referred to as Sarah, who claimed she had been beaten and forced to become the "spiritual" wife to an adult man. FLDS members have denied the girl, supposedly named Sarah Jessop Barlow, exists.

On Thursday, child protection supervisor Angie Voss testified that she and other investigators encountered several pregnant teenagers at the YFZ (Yearning For Zion) Ranch in Eldorado, Texas, about 40 miles outside San Angelo. The girls called each other "sister wives," Voss said, and believed it was acceptable to be "spiritually united" with a man at any age.

"It was the belief that no age was too young to be married," she said.

The ranch is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.

Walther must determine whether the state acted properly in removing the children during an April 4 raid at the ranch. The raid stemmed from a series of phone calls in late March from a 16-year-old officials referred to as Sarah, who claimed she had been beaten and forced to become the "spiritual" wife to an adult man. FLDS members have denied the girl, supposedly named Sarah Jessop Barlow, exists.

Voss testified that, during the interviews, the girls would often change their names.

While the men at the ranch said there were no Sarahs there, Voss testified, investigators learned through interviews there were five Sarahs at the compound -- and that one of them, like the caller, was 16 and had a baby. The women told investigators they did not know where that woman was, and her name was not Sarah Jessop Barlow. It remains unclear whether the 16-year-old who made the calls has been located by authorities. Video Watch mothers file into courthouse

[stefan]

Sect children will stay in state custody, judge rules

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- Hundreds of children who were taken from a polygamist ranch by Texas child welfare authorities will remain in state custody, a judge ruled Friday night.

Judge Barbara Walther also ordered court DNA testing for all 416 children who lived at the YFZ (Yearning For Zion) Ranch in Eldorado to determine their biological parents.

The compound is run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.

Walther made her ruling after two days of testimony at a hearing to determine whether the children were properly removed by child welfare authorities.

Walther said she found sufficient evidence for Texas Child Protective Services to keep custody of the children.

Officials are now looking for "the very best temporary placements for these children," said Marleigh Meisner, CPS spokeswoman.

"This is not about religion -- this is about keeping children safe from abuse," she added.

An attorney representing some of the children said he planned to appeal the ruling.

"We're a little disappointed in what the process turned out to be," said Cody Towns.

The ranch raid stemmed from a series of phone calls in late March from a 16-year-old officials referred to as Sarah, who said she had been beaten and forced to become the "spiritual" wife to an adult man.


FLDS members have denied that the girl, supposedly named Sarah Jessop Barlow, exists. Authorities have been trying to locate her, but have been unable to identify the girl.

Texas Rangers said Friday they are pursuing a Colorado woman as a "person of interest" regarding the phone calls that touched off the raid. Authorities said a search of the home of Rozita Swinton, 33, resulted in evidence that may link her to phone calls made about the YFZ ranch.

Earlier in the day, a defense witness testified that it is uncommon for a polygamist sect to force girls as young as 13 into marriage, as the state alleged.

Religious scholar John Walsh also addressed a particularly damning piece of evidence: At least one bed found inside a temple that was allegedly used to consummate such marriages immediately after the ceremony.

"Historically, the only use of a bed in a temple is for temple worship itself," said Walsh, who said he has studied the FLDS practices for 18 years. "The worship lasts a couple of hours, so all the temples will have a place where someone can lie down."

But, he said, "To my knowledge, there has never been any sexual activity in a Mormon temple."

Walsh said he also studies the mainstream Mormon church, which renounced polygamy a century ago and has no ties to the FLDS. He said without the polygamy aspect, the FLDS would resemble the Baptist or Catholic religions.

Walsh was followed to the stand by FLDS member Marilyn Jeffs, who said she was not forced into marriage before age 18. It wasn't clear whether Jeffs is related to jailed FLDS leader Warren Steed Jeffs.

Another FLDS woman, Maureen Jessop, said she was a mother of two toddlers and an infant, but also was trained as an emergency medical technician -- despite her husband's wishes. Jessop said she is a stay-at-home mother by choice. "I have a wonderful life in Eldorado," she testified.

Also testifying Friday was child psychiatrist and state witness Bruce Perry, who said FLDS children are taught that disobeying orders leads to eternal damnation and have little opportunity to learn how to make independent choices.

Young children are not mature enough to enter into a sexual relationship or a marriage, he added.

Perry, who has worked with families in groups such as the Branch Davidian sect near Waco, Texas, said that if the children are allowed to remain in state custody, "There have to be exceptional elements in place for these children and their families. The traditional foster care would not be good for these children."
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The state had the burden of demonstrating to Walther why removing the children was necessary.

In court Thursday, Texas state officials presented records they said show 10 women were either married or pregnant as minors. The list was found during the raid, locked in a safe at a main ranch office building, the officials said

[Mtnman1830]

I admit, I haven't been keeping up on the whole story, but I do have some questions...

Just how are they housing over 400 kids - Not to mention feeding / clothing them!

[denaliguide]

couple of more questions.

can law enforcement interogate or question minor children without a parent present?

have all the children been made wards of the state?

[Sombeech]

couple of more questions.

can law enforcement interogate or question minor children without a parent present?

have all the children been made wards of the state?

I guess if they have reason to believe the children are in danger....

Unfortunately, this whole incident started off with a scam. The feds have in custody the original woman who made the call - not a member of the sect. Just some angry woman who put in a call making it sound urgent enough for law enforcement to come out.

I'm not sure what the charges are, but she totally lied saying she was in danger, yadda yadda yadda.... So even though she's in big trouble, they were still able to get a legit investigation going, and likely found children who were in danger.

[Brewhaha]

What a quagmire. As far as I'm concerned, the adults should be able to do what they want with each other; however, minors should never be abused (duh!). Perhaps, polygamy should be legalized so that the practitioners would no longer be eligible for welfare, thus making it a little less financially attractive.

There are various flavors of "Mormon" polygamy with the FLDS one being the most extreme. Other groups, including some down here in San Juan County, seem to involve consenting and thoughtful adults. Lots of cultures have a history of polygamy, including some modern day Jewish sects. The practice is not strictly Mormon and will likely never go away.

One troubling aspect is the idea that the children who are raised in the FLDS sect, for example, appear to be brainwashed. As an outsider it is natural to make this accusation. Maybe it's true, maybe not. I don't know how to deal with this because I think that we all brainwash our kids to some degree.

What a mess. But, for what it's worth, I think that we'll all see a day when polygamy becomes legal.

[denaliguide]

I think that we all brainwash our kids to some degree.

i certainly tried to do it with mine. wouldn't want them turn into bunny huggin, tree lovin, atv hateing, liberals. :roflol:

[stefan]

Unfortunately, this whole incident started off with a scam. The feds have in custody the original woman who made the call - not a member of the sect. Just some angry woman who put in a call making it sound urgent enough for law enforcement to come out.

I'm not sure what the charges are, but she totally lied saying she was in danger, yadda yadda yadda.... So even though she's in big trouble, they were still able to get a legit investigation going, and likely found children who were in danger.

um ... more accurately, they think she made the call, they don't know she made the call.

[stefan]

i certainly tried to do it with mine. wouldn't want them turn into bunny huggin, tree lovin, atv hateing, liberals. :roflol:

yeah ... you definitely don't want them growing up and learning how to think for themselves

[denaliguide]

i certainly tried to do it with mine. wouldn't want them turn into bunny huggin, tree lovin, atv hateing, liberals. :roflol:

yeah ... you definitely don't want them growing up and learning how to think for themselves

never said it worked. :lol8:

[Sombeech]

um ... more accurately, they think she made the call, they don't know she made the call.

I thought it was just confirmed.

[stefan]

um ... more accurately, they think she made the call, they don't know she made the call.

I thought it was just confirmed.

link? i haven't seen anything that suggests that. moreover, i haven't seen anything that suggests they're convinced she did do it ... just seem that they suspect that she might have done it.

[Sombeech]

um ... more accurately, they think she made the call, they don't know she made the call.

I thought it was just confirmed.

link? i haven't seen anything that suggests that. moreover, i haven't seen anything that suggests they're convinced she did do it ... just seem that they suspect that she might have done it.

just one that i found...

http://www.keyetv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=247fdf95-4688-41f5-8b97-66be59f555ff


The Colorado Springs Police Department has confirmed that they arrested Rosita Swinton for false reporting to authorities, a misdemeanor charge. (Colorado Springs Police Department)

http://www.keyetv.com/media/news/c/8/8/c881b8fc-acc9-4662-939a-e848c7fd4d3b/Story.jpg

[stefan]

just one that i found...

http://www.keyetv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=247fdf95-4688-41f5-8b97-66be59f555ff


i think you are confusing the reason for her arrest

[stefan]

DNA testing to determine parents, sex abuse

SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) -- More than 400 children taken from a polygamous sect's ranch will undergo DNA testing this week, an attempt to determine who their parents are and if any sexual abuse took place.

Officials plan to begin taking DNA samples Monday at the coliseum in San Angelo where the children are being housed, but may need three or four days to complete the job.

Judge Barbara Walther ordered the tests at the request of state officials, who have complained that members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have continually changed their names, possibly lied about their ages and sometimes had difficulty naming their relatives.

The process will likely take about half an hour per sample because of the paperwork and care needed to avoid contamination, said Darrell Azar, a spokesman for Child Protective Services.

A certain number of DNA markers -- segments of the DNA with specific genetic characteristics -- are tested to determine whether two people are related. If any uncertainties arise, analysts test additional markers.

Three male members of the sect said in an interview aired on CBS's "Early Show" Monday that they would cooperate in DNA testing if it would help them get the children back.

"Whatever we need to do to get them back in their peaceful homes," a man identified as "Rulan" said.

State prosecutors have argued that the FLDS church encourages underage marriages and births, subjecting children to sexual abuse or the imminent risk of abuse. "Rulan" said sect members are reconsidering whether girls under 18 should have sex with adult men.

"Many of us perhaps were not even aware of such a law," he said. "And we do reconsider, yes. We teach our children to abide the law."

When the DNA sampling is complete, state officials will begin to relocate some of the 416 children from the coliseum and will separate the children younger than 4 years old from adult mothers.

Officials say family relationships in the sect can be confusing to outsiders because the children of more than one wife live in the same household.

The children identify all the women in the house as their mothers, and if a father leaves the community, children and mothers are reassigned to another man, a child welfare investigator testified during a hearing last week.

Mothers of the youngest children had been allowed to stay with the children before the judge's order Friday. But that arrangement will end after they are moved from the coliseum, Azar said.

He said it's not clear how soon the children will be moved, but state workers will try to keep them grouped together with siblings or others from the community.

They'll also try to shield the children, raised in an insular community with no television and little contact with outsiders, from overexposure to mainstream society.

"We're going to try to keep the children in groups so I don't think we're talking about your traditional foster setting," Azar said.

After two days of testimony, Walther ordered that all the children swept up in the raid of the Eldorado compound remain in state custody.

The custody case is one of the nation's largest and most complicated. The ruling Friday capped two days of testimony that sometimes became disorderly as hundreds of lawyers for children and parents competed to defend their clients in two rooms linked by a video feed.
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The children, including 130 children younger than 4 years and two dozen adolescent boys, will receive individual hearings before June 5.

Law enforcement officers raided the Yearning For Zion ranch April 3. The raid was prompted by calls made to a family violence shelter, purportedly by a 16-year-old girl who said her 50-year-old husband beat and raped her. That girl has not been identified.

[Deathcricket]

Is it me or is this the creepiest interview on the planet?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVGK2Aa4uEk&eurl

[abirken]

Is it me or is this the creepiest interview on the planet?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVGK2Aa4uEk&eurl


Whew! Heavy stuff. These women are so brainwashed I can't even watch this video. They sound like robots. It's one of the saddest videos I have ever witnessed. One of the women talk about the 'choices of her children' being taken away by the recent raid. I'd like to know what CHOICE those children had by being raised within a cult? :frustrated: :ne_nau:

[Deathcricket]

Agreed!

The funny thing is I actually work with a former plig who got "kicked out" of the society for being a free thinker and questioning the doctrines. I think he said out of his 7 brothers, only one has remained there. But the weird thing is, he says nothing but good things about them. I thought he would be a little bitter about his own family turning their back on him. But he has not even a hint of anger. He basically says "you live by their rules or you don't live there". He's even still with his "arranged" wife and they have 4 or 5 kids!

But yeah, then I see videos like this and get freaked out. So it must be different places are weirder than others. Not sure.

[Sombeech]

I thought he would be a little bitter about his own family turning their back on him. But he has not even a hint of anger.

Well, I don't think it was a family decision to expel him, it's probably the whole community.

[Deathcricket]

Oh agreed, it was basically the elders (or whatever they call themselves) that came and talked to him. Then they basically said "you have to leave, start looking for a place to live". And then about a month later they were out.

But if I had a disagreement with my folks and they made me move away, I'd be pissed. It's one thing if I was doing drugs, or something destructive, but just saying "I'm not sure I buy this whole theology" and he has to move away?

It was a difference of opinion. I would never stop sheltering my child just because they didn't have the same religious beliefs as me. And if they told me to move away instead of having a discussion and "ageeing to disagree". I can imagine I would be pissed. But I guess not growing up in that environment, I'll never understand it. It's like an extreme version of "our way or the highway".

Oh and I didn't mention he was only 20 at the time. Not super young I know, but still. I guess I'm not surprised they made him move away, but surprised he doesnt have ANY hard feelings about the situation. I can't say I would be so forgiving.

[stefan]

Court: Texas had no right to remove polygamists' children

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- The state of Texas should not have removed the more than 460 children it took from a polygamist sect's ranch, an appeals court ruled Thursday.

n its ruling, the Texas 3rd District Court of Appeals decided in favor of 38 women who had appealed the removals, as well as a decision last month by a district judge that the children will remain in state custody.

"The existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the department's witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger," the three-judge panel said.

The state's Department of Family and Protective Services "did not present any evidence of danger to the physical health or safety of any male children or any female children who had not reached puberty," the judges ruled.

According to the ruling, the mothers said the state should have proved that the children's health or safety was in danger; that there was "an urgent need for protection" that required immediately separating the children from their parents; and that the state made "reasonable efforts" to avoid removing the children.

Because no such proof was presented, the mothers argued, the District Court -- which backed the department's seizure of the children -- "was required to return the children to their parents and abused its discretion by failing to do so."

"The legislature has required that there be evidence to support a finding that there is a danger to the physical health or safety of the children in question and that the need for protection is urgent and warrants immediate removal," the ruling said.

It concluded, "Evidence that children raised in this particular environment may some day have their physical health and safety threatened is not evidence that the danger is imminent enough to warrant invoking the extreme measure of immediate removal prior to full litigation of the issue."

The children were removed last month from the Yearning for Zion (YFZ) Ranch in Eldorado, Texas, which is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.


The sect is linked to jailed "prophet" Warren Steed Jeffs.

Authorities raided the ranch after they received reports of child abuse.

[Deathcricket]

What a disaster. So if I understand this right...

They raided a ranch and forcefully removed 460 kids from their parents. Now they have no proof whatsoever that they were being abused or mishandled in any way?

I smell a lawsuit coming. And I have to say I'm in favor of the pligs. Assuming of course the children weren't being abused. They should have more proof before doing a raid IMO. Yet another instance of the government getting to big for it's britches.

Edit : dont get me wrong, I don't like pligs at all. Seems more like a brainwashed cult than anything else. But that doesnt mean they arent people and entitled certain rights. Being so secretive and on a fortified compound I'm sure makes this issue even harder.

[Scott Card]

What a disaster. (clip)
I smell a lawsuit coming. Smelt one from day one. Disaster is an understatement. That's Texas Justice or as they say, "don't mess with Texas." I lived there for about a year. I really liked the people but the general attitude seemed to be that they (Texans) WERE the United States and the rest of us poor unenlightened folks were a mere appendage to Texas. So it follows that the Constitution may just be a

[denaliguide]

it's about some sense came into the situation for a change. no way all 460 kids were being abused. if you are going to make those type of accusations you need to investigate each family individually, not collectively. the only time it makes sense to remove children form their homes is if they are in some type of immediate danger. although some may say that their religion is the main danger. in this country there is freedom of religion. even when we don't agree with or support their beliefs.

[stefan]

the only time it makes sense to remove children form their homes is if they are in some type of immediate danger.

so i am curious what constitutes "sufficient evidence" for the girls who HAVE reached puberty.



The state's Department of Family and Protective Services "did not present any evidence of danger to the physical health or safety of any male children or any female children who had not reached puberty," the judges ruled.

[moabfool]

i certainly tried to do it with mine. wouldn't want them turn into bunny huggin, tree lovin, atv hateing, liberals. :roflol:

yeah ... you definitely don't want them growing up and learning how to think for themselves

Implying that anyone that doesn't think exactly like a college professor can't think for themselves? "The sign of an open mind is the ability to entertain a thought without accepting it." If anybody knows who said that and/or what the correct quote is please let me know.

[stefan]

not exactly. more of the brainwashing comment and the margins on "to some degree" and the liberal jab. mostly in jest ...



I think that we all brainwash our kids to some degree.

i certainly tried to do it with mine.


by the way ... good to see you 'round these parts again, mike.


i think the quote you're looking for is

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it - Aristotle

carpey uses it as a signature

[moabfool]

I may be one of the few "outsiders" that's been to Colorado City. We just called it "Short Crick" while I was there (for three whole days). They were super nice people. They dressed funny and there weren't any traffic laws to speak of, but they treated you like one of their own (the creapy horror movie music just started to play in my head). I think their problem is that they're about 100 years behind the times and four years ahead of the curve. I was 10 years old when I visited there. I thought it was super cool that they let 12 year-old kids drive (yes, in cars, on the street). If I had known that 14 year-old girls were marrying 50 year-old men I might have thought differently about the situation.

On the subject, which is worse:

The guy that has three or four "wives" (that he "married" as consenting adults), 15 or 20 kids, and he provides for their needs...

or

...the girl that doesn't know which guy is her baby daddy and got pregnant just so she could collect public assistance...

or

...the guy that just says "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" and has fathered kids all over creation without providing support?

I'm inclined to say that the first guy represents the best of three very bad situations. I agree, adults can do what they want, within reason, especially if it's a truly personal decision. That theory fails due to the fact that there is no such thing as a truly personal decision.

[moabfool]

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it - Aristotle

carpey uses it as a signature

Thought I'd seen it around. Just couldn't remember where. Thanks. :five:

[RedMan]

I agree with Scott Card.
Texas had the golden opportunity to do something about the FLDS abuse situation but decided that they didn't need to actually execute according to the law.

I am happy to see the court uphold the law and PO'd at Texas for being fundamentally stupid.

I fully expect the FLDS to build several new buildings that will have plaques on the wall saying "This structure funded by the Texas department of protective services".

[stefan]

Texas appeals ruling on sect children

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- A day after an appeals court ruled that the state of Texas had no right to remove children from a polygamist sect's ranch, the state appealed that decision to the Texas Supreme Court.

The state Department of Family and Protective Services argues in its brief that the Texas 3rd District Court of Appeals overstepped its bounds by ruling that the state erred in removing the children from the ranch.

Thursday's ruling could send home more than 400 children removed April 3 from the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-day Saints' ranch in Eldorado, Texas.

As of Friday, it was unclear whether the children would remain in state custody while the appeal is pending.

In its 27-page appeal, the department said the appeals court's role is merely to determine whether a lower court abused its discretion rather than reconsider the evidence and second-guess the lower court's decision.

"The appellate court cannot concern itself with the burden of proof or conduct a legal or factual sufficiency review," the state wrote in its appeal.

Authorities contend that minors possibly were being sexually abused at the ranch.

If the state's Supreme Court appeal fails, a permanent reunion of families is assured, said Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst.

"I think it's clear that if [Thursday's ruling] stands, all these kids are going back with their mothers," Toobin said on CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360

[stefan]

Texas appeals ruling on sect children

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- A day after an appeals court ruled that the state of Texas had no right to remove children from a polygamist sect's ranch, the state appealed that decision to the Texas Supreme Court.

The state Department of Family and Protective Services argues in its brief that the Texas 3rd District Court of Appeals overstepped its bounds by ruling that the state erred in removing the children from the ranch.

Thursday's ruling could send home more than 400 children removed April 3 from the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-day Saints' ranch in Eldorado, Texas.

As of Friday, it was unclear whether the children would remain in state custody while the appeal is pending.

In its 27-page appeal, the department said the appeals court's role is merely to determine whether a lower court abused its discretion rather than reconsider the evidence and second-guess the lower court's decision.

"The appellate court cannot concern itself with the burden of proof or conduct a legal or factual sufficiency review," the state wrote in its appeal.

Authorities contend that minors possibly were being sexually abused at the ranch.

If the state's Supreme Court appeal fails, a permanent reunion of families is assured, said Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst.

"I think it's clear that if [Thursday's ruling] stands, all these kids are going back with their mothers," Toobin said on CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360

[Scott Card]

No surprise there. Child Protective Services is now in the CYA mode ("A" stands for tail). :haha:

[trackrunner]

The state Department of Family and Protective Services argues in its brief that the Texas 3rd District Court of Appeals overstepped its bounds by ruling that the state erred in removing the children from the ranch.

I love this quote. The court has no authority to check and balance the interpretation of the law. :lol8:

[stefan]

LINK (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0805/22/lkl.02.html)

the transcript from the larry king live "Inside Polygamy: An Exclusive & Personal Look"

dialogue includes:

ROD PARKER, ATTORNEY FOR YFZ FAMILIES
JULIE BALOVICH, ATTORNEY, TEXAS RIO GRANDE LEGAL AID
JENNY HOFF, REPORTER, KXAN-TV, AUSTIN
MARYANN JOHNSON, HAS FOUR CHILDREN IN TEXAS CUSTODY
WILLIE JESSOP, SPOKESMAN FOR YFZ RANCH
EDSON JESSOP, HAS FIVE CHILDREN IN TEXAS CUSTODY
ZAVENDA YOUNG, HAS FOUR CHILDREN IN TEXAS CUSTODY
MARGARET JESSOP, HAS FOUR CHILDREN IN TEXAS CUSTODY
SUSAN HAYS, ATTORNEY

[stefan]

from a different larry king:


KING: We begin tonight at the Eldorado Yearning For Zion Ranch in Texas with three women, all of whom have been separated from their children. They are Esther, Marilyn and Sally.

<snip>

KING: You never thought plural marriage was wrong?

SALLY: No, sir. I do not believe that.

KING: You never thought that a relationship between, say, older men and teenage girls and younger were wrong?

SALLY: I would not -- I would -- for my own daughter, I would advise her to wait until she was of legal age. I would not want her to get married younger than that.

KING: But did you see others at the ranch getting married younger?

SALLY: Not that I'm aware of.

KING: So you have never, to your knowledge, seen a younger girl marry an older person?

SALLY: Not that I'm aware of.

KING: Marilyn, had you?

MARILYN: Not that I have ever seen.

KING: Esther, had you?

ESTHER: Not that I have ever seen.

KING: So all of these stories are false or just you haven't seen them?

ESTHER: I believe they are false.

MARILYN: I believe they are false.

SALLY: Me, also.

KING: So you're saying there were no young girls at that ranch ever, ever married to, say, men in their 20s or 30s?

ESTHER: Not to our knowledge.

KING: You never saw anyone having sex with an underage girl?

SALLY: No...

ESTHER: No, sir.

MARILYN: No, sir.

KING: So the only thing that you dealt with was pluralistic marriages -- marriages to more than one person?

MARILYN: Yes.

ESTHER: Yes.

SALLY: Yes (INAUDIBLE)

[RedMan]

[quote]I love this quote. The court has no authority to check and balance the interpretation of the law. :lol8:

Really? In my experience that is exactly the courts function.

[Sombeech]

Yeah, embarrassing move for the child protective services. Besides, I'm not sure why they needed DNA testing to see who was related to whom.... no adoption allowed I guess?

Or does DNA now prove abuse?

I'll bet there were some underage marriages, but that doesn't mean everybody in the community knew about it. This isn't a group of only 10 people. Maybe they didn't put it in the Polygamy Paper Weekly.

Just like I don't know how many kids my neighbor has.... whom I see every day. I can't remember where he works, and I've never been inside his house.

[Gutpiler_Utahn]

I think the DNA testing is being used to show that older men were sexually abusing these kids. I agree that it's likely that many of them were not involved with any kind of abuse, but with so many of them being decietful about who they are and such, they brought it on themselves.

I feel for the children, but I have no sympathy for the liars and sickos.

[trackrunner]

I love this quote. The court has no authority to check and balance the interpretation of the law. :lol8:

Really? In my experience that is exactly the courts function.
I'm lost at what you are trying to say. Clearly I thought the quote was funny and disagree with the Texas CPS court filing argument that I quoted hence :lol8: I believe that is the proper role of the court, check & balance & interpret the law. But since you disagree, or didn't see my :lol8: , what do you think.

[RedMan]

I think I follow you now.

You know in these forums are sometimes hard to know what someone is really saying.

I guess the whole emoticon thing is lost on me. It leave too much unexplained.

I couldn't tell from your post if you are laughing at yourself, the state of Texas or the idea that the court can overturn a cops interpretation of the law or the concept that courts perform that function.

I need remedial forum lessons.

[Scott Card]

Texas Supreme Court affirmed! The kids are going back home. The rule of Law prevailed. :2thumbs:

[trackrunner]

Texas Supreme Court affirmed! The kids are going back home. The rule of Law prevailed. :2thumbs:
I bet there will be a civil lawsuit coming against CPS etc.

[stefan]

DNA taken from sect leader in criminal probe

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- Texas authorities say they have collected DNA swabs from jailed polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs in connection with a criminal investigation involving "spiritual marriages" to four girls ages 12 to 15.

The samples were taken Thursday in Arizona from Jeffs, the sect's jailed 52-year-old "prophet," said Jerry Strickland, spokesman for the Texas attorney general's office.

Jeffs is leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Marital records -- known as bishop's records -- were seized April 3 from the sect's Yearning for Zion ranch, according to an affidavit for a search warrant seeking the DNA samples. The records show that Jeffs married a 14-year-old girl on January 18, 2004, in Utah, the affidavit says.

Jeffs also "married" three other underage brides -- two 12-year-olds and a 14-year-old -- at the sect's 1,700-acre ranch near Eldorado, Texas, the affidavit says.

The court document refers to photos of Jeffs with his alleged child brides. In one picture, the affidavit states, he is kissing one of the 12-year-olds. In another, he is with a 15-year-old wife at the birth of their child in October 2004, according to the affidavit.

Jeffs is believed to have "committed the felony offense of sexual assault of a child," the affidavit says. One of the 12-year-olds, who was believed to have married Jeffs on July 27, 2006, allegedly was sexually assaulted by him later that day, the affidavit states.

The DNA samples will allow authorities to determine whether he is the father of the children born to underage mothers, according to the court documents. Jeffs' Arizona attorney, Mike Piccarreta, was not available for comment on Friday, according to his office.

The criminal investigation, led by the Texas attorney general's office, is separate from an ongoing custody dispute involving the sect. A hearing in the custody case is scheduled later Friday in San Angelo.

The Texas Supreme Court ruled Thursday that social workers overstepped their authority in rounding up more than 460 children from the YFZ ranch.

Child Protective Services did not present sufficient evidence that children were being abused, the state's highest court ruled, upholding a lower appeals court. "We are not inclined to disturb the court of appeals' decision," the high court said. "On the record before us, removal of the children was not warranted."

The 6-3 ruling could clear the way for the children to be returned to their families. State officials have expressed concern that the parents, members of the polygamist FLDS, could leave Texas.

The ruling came in the case of 38 mothers who had appealed the removal of their children, but attorneys have said the reasoning can be applied to all the children taken in the April raid.

State officials have said the sect, with its polygamist beliefs, groomed young boys on the ranch to be abusers. FLDS members deny any sexual abuse at the ranch and claim that they are being persecuted because of their religion.

Jeffs is jailed in Mohave County, Arizona, awaiting trial on five counts of sexual conduct with a minor, four counts of incest and one count of conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor.

If convicted, he could face more than three years in prison. In November, he was sentenced to two consecutive terms of five years to life in Utah after being convicted on two charges of being an accomplice to rape in connection with a marriage he performed in 2001.

He was accused of using his religious influence over his followers to coerce a 14-year-old girl into marriage with her 19-year-old cousin. The girl, Elissa Wall, testified that she repeatedly told Jeffs she did not want to be married and that she was uncomfortable with sexual advances from her husband, Allen Steed, who is now awaiting trial on rape charges.

Jeffs' trial last year thrust the FLDS into the national spotlight, and April's raid on the YFZ ranch intensified scrutiny on the sect.
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In addition to the YFZ ranch, the FLDS is prevalent in the twin border communities of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona.

The FLDS is not affiliated with the mainstream Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago. Critics of the sect say it arranges marriages for girls as young as 13 to older men.

[Sombeech]

So... The DNA tests were just to convict Warren Jeffs, already in custody? Is that really all they got out of this whole shenanigan?

And, does anybody remember the reason these hundreds of children were taken from their mothers, is because some chick placed a fake phone call?

[RedMan]

Oh I imagine there are several dozen lawyers who remember all sorts of things that will soon be spelled out in lawsuits against the CPS.

5 cases with merit, 430 children removed form their homes and family by force.

One suit per child = a butt load of trouble.

We'll have a good idea of the size of settlements when the FLDS start new buildings in a few years.

I'm betting their temple will be very nice with a Texas sized baptismal font.

What really bother me most is that this is clearly a case of religious persecution and this continent was settled by people trying to escape that.

[RedMan]

By MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writer 31 minutes ago

SAN ANGELO, Texas - More than 400 children removed from a polygamist sect's ranch will be returned to their parents beginning Monday, state officials chastened by a state Supreme Court ruling said Friday as they hammered out an agreement with the families.

The children won't be able to leave Texas but they will be allowed to move back to Yearning For Zion Ranch, where child-welfare officials have alleged that underage girls were pushed into spiritual marriages with older men. The parents say there was no abuse, and two courts ruled that the state overstepped its authority in removing all children from the ranch, from infants to teenagers.

Texas Child Protective Services took custody of the children from the west Texas ranch after a raid nearly two months ago. A court order that a judge restore custody to parents applies to only 124 of the children, but state officials said about 300 others taken under identical circumstances also will be returned.

A draft agreement released by CPS attorney Gary Banks says the parents can get their children back after showing identification and pledging to take parenting classes and remain in Texas.

The agreement was reached with 38 mothers of 124 children who filed the complaint that prompted the Texas Supreme Court's ruling Thursday.

The agreement does not specify that the fathers must stay away, and it allows the children to return to the ranch run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Eldorado, about 40 miles south of San Angelo.

Texas District Judge Barbara Walther made revisions to the deal, and attorneys on both sides were reviewing them Friday afternoon.

The high court affirmed a decision by an appeals court last week and said CPS failed to show an immediate danger to nearly all the children swept up from the ranch.

"On the record before us, removal of the children was not warranted," the justices said in their ruling issued in Austin.

The Texas high court let stand the appeals court's order that Texas District Judge Barbara Walther return the children from foster care to their parents within a reasonable time period.

Walther ruled last month that the children should be placed in foster care after a chaotic custody hearing involving hundreds of lawyers representing the individual children and parents.

FLDS elder Willie Jessop said Thursday that parents were excited about the court's decision but would remain apprehensive until they get their children back.

"We're just looking forward to when little children can be in the arms of their parents," he said. "Until you have your children in your hands, there's no relief. But we have hope."

The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled last week that the state failed to show that any more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused, and had offered no evidence of sexual or physical abuse against the other children.

The FLDS, which teaches that polygamy brings glorification in heaven, is a breakaway sect of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago.

Texas officials claimed at one point that there were 31 teenage girls at the ranch who were pregnant or had been pregnant, but later conceded that about half of those mothers, if not more, were adults. One was 27.

Roughly 430 children from the ranch are in foster care after two births, numerous reclassifications of adult women initially held as minors and a handful of agreements allowing parents to keep custody while the Supreme Court considered the case.

Under state law, children can be taken from their parents if there's a danger to their physical safety, an urgent need for protection and if officials made a reasonable effort to keep the children in their homes. The high court agreed with the appellate court that the seizures fell short of that standard.

The justices said child welfare officials could take numerous actions to protect children short of separating them from their parents and placing them in foster care, and that Walther could put restrictions on the children and parents to address concerns that they may flee once reunited.

Texas authorities, meanwhile, collected DNA swabs Thursday from sect leader Warren Jeffs in an ongoing criminal investigation separate from the custody dispute.

A search warrant for the DNA alleges that Jeffs had "spiritual" marriages with four girls, ages 12 to 15.

Jeffs, who is revered as a prophet, is serving a prison sentence for a Utah conviction of being accomplice to rape in the marriage of a 14-year-old girl to a 19-year-old sect member. He awaits trial in Arizona on similar charges.

___

Associated Press writer Jim Vertuno in Austin contributed to this report.

[trackrunner]

We'll have a good idea of the size of settlements when the FLDS start new buildings in a few years.

Red I couldn't agree more. When courts say Texas did something it was supose to do and then took it too far, I just see a big lawsuit will happen.

[Ih8grvty]

So... The DNA tests were just to convict Warren Jeffs, already in custody? Is that really all they got out of this whole shenanigan?

And, does anybody remember the reason these hundreds of children were taken from their mothers, is because some chick placed a fake phone call?


The thing you have to be careful of is that when you get info on abuse, or any crime for that matter, any of them COULD be fake, but you have to take some sort of action. Better to be wrong then do nothing and have someone die for it.
Any report to the police could be fake, but if you treat them all as fake, how many real ones go past with nothing done to help the victims?
and the one big thing in the states favor is that no matter what else or how ti came to be and why they went there is that polygamy is illegal.
Personally I am happy to have but a single bride, I couldnt take more than one of them picking on me, and 2 or more mother in laws?

[denaliguide]

[ I couldnt take more than one of them picking on me, and 2 or more mother in laws?

now if you married twins you would only have the one mother in law. :lol8:

[stefan]

Polygamist sect clarifies marriage policy

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- A polygamist sect under fire over allegations of underage marriage will now allow women to wed only when they are old enough to give consent under state law, a spokesman said Monday.

The legal age in Texas to marry without parental consent is 18.

"The church is clarifying its policy on marriage," said Willie Jessop, a spokesman for the Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

He told reporters the church would advise FLDS families "neither request nor consent" to the marriage of underage girls, though he stopped short of saying the church ever violated the law.

"In the FLDS church, all marriages are consensual. The church insists on appropriate consent," he said.

The change in policy comes after a Texas judge issued an order Monday allowing parents of hundreds of children seized from the sect to begin picking up their kids.

With one exception, Judge Barbara Walther told the Department of Family and Protective Services to allow parents to pick up the 440 children starting 10 a.m. Monday.

Thirteen children and six mothers had left the Austin Children's Shelter by 6 p.m., the shelter's executive director and CPS officials told CNN affiliate KXAN.

The exception involved a 16-year-old girl who the girl's attorney said was an "identified victim of sexual abuse."

The attorney said the child's release might cause her to come into contact with her alleged sexual abuser.

"The court has now signed an order applying to all children," the motion said. "But there are no restrictions or provisions which take into account the immediate risk of her alleged perpetrator having access."

The logistics of retrieving the remaining children may not be so simple, though, since some parents have children at different facilities across the state.

Under the judge's order, the Department of Family and Protective Services will still have the right to visit and interview the children.

These unannounced visits could entail medical, psychological and psychiatric examinations, and the parents must not intervene.

Also under the order, the parents must attend and complete parenting classes. The families must remain in the state of Texas and notify the department within 48 hours of any trips more than 100 miles from their homes.

The Texas Supreme Court on Thursday let stand a lower court's ruling that the state had no right to remove the children in April from the Yearning for Zion ranch near Eldorado.

The ranch is run by the the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.


The FLDS is not affiliated with the mainstream Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago.

The state of Texas maintained it removed the children because interviews at the ranch uncovered a "pervasive pattern" of sexual abuse through forced marriages between underage girls and older men. The state alleged that young boys on the ranch were groomed to be perpetrators because of those beliefs.

FLDS members deny any sexual abuse occurred and say they are being persecuted because of their religion.

In May, the 3rd District Court of Appeals ruled that officials erred in removing the children from the ranch, effectively overturning Walther's ruling that the children remain in state custody.

The state Supreme Court agreed with the appellate decision last week.

DFPS spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said her department supports Walther's order, which "allows for our investigation to continue."

"Our goal is always to try to reunite families," Meisner said. "We hope they can be safe there."

The children are being housed at seven facilities across the state, near Amarillo, Houston, Austin, San Antonio, Abilene, Fort Worth and Corpus Christi.

"The kids have been terrorized and put in the custody of the state for weeks and weeks," FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop said Friday after a hearing to determine how to return the children.

"Every effort has been made to bring relief," Jessop said. "It doesn't need to be a problem to go pick up the kids. It doesn't need to be any more difficult than picking them up after school."
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Also on Monday Attorney General Wally Opal called for a special prosecutor to look into allegations of sexual abuse and sexual exploitation of girls in a polygamous sect in Bountiful, British Columbia.

It was not clear if Bountiful's community had any connections to the FLDS or any other polygamous group in the United States.

[Sombeech]

Better to be wrong then do nothing and have someone die for it.

I agree, but will there be any real consequences for the woman who started this whole thing?


Rosita Swinton


http://www.keyetv.com/media/news/c/8/8/c881b8fc-acc9-4662-939a-e848c7fd4d3b/Story.jpg

[stefan]

as was pointed out before, i believe they didn't know if it was her but she was a suspect.

got anything to back that up 'beech? how do you know she started it?

[Sombeech]

I just googled "rosita swinton" - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rosita+swinton&btnG=Google+Search

[stefan]

and ... as i said the last time you made this claim ... if you actually read the articles listed at the top of google, just like the original article that was posted on this thread. she was arrested for something different. subsequently, she was suspected of making the phone call. but i haven't read anything that said they have confirmed or that they believe she did.

don't make me compare you to fox opinion news :haha:

[Sombeech]

Well, I guess it's fair to say she's guilty for the call, as much as the children were abused.


... but one of those statements will turn out to be true.

[stefan]

Five members of polygamous sect surrender

[jules]

Has anyone read the book that Carolyn Jessop (the woman that escaped from Colorado city with all of her children) wrote, called "Escape?" After reading this book, I have absolutely no respect for the polygamist community. The way they are able to afford all the children that they have is what they call, "bleeding the beast." They work the system for as much money as they can possibly get. And when a man has 56 children, that's a lot of support. They abuse their children physically and mentally, brainwashing them to be afraid of the outside world. They excommunicate many of their boys, simply to keep the ratio of women to men out of whack, and so that they cannot compete with the older men. I don't believe that what the state of Texas did was right, but at the same time, I would very much like to see the end of the FLDS, and their practices of abusing and brainwashing their children.

[stefan]

How Arizona's polygamist raid paved the way to Texas
by Jaimee Rose
The Arizona Republic


It's hard to see your way in polygamist country, always has been. The nights are dark, and street lamps rare or absent altogether. The people prefer to be guided by God's light, leaning on the moon and stars to show the way.

The first time the children were taken, in the summer of 1953, police crept into town beneath an eclipsed moon. A trail of sedans bounced over the muddy road from Fredonia to Short Creek, Ariz., with headlights dimmed. Their mission hinged on surprising the polygamists before they could flee. Overhead, a full moon glowed with a ruddy red light then faded slowly into the Earth's shadow.

The airwaves hummed in the dark. Ham-radio operators were carrying messages from Gov. Howard Pyle to the police and relaying news from Short Creek's sheriff to the Arizona attorney general. Pyle had vowed to shatter the serenity of Short Creek, where nary a girl had reached age 15 "without having been forced into a shameful mockery of marriage," he said.

Over the radios, the ham operators forecast a grim scene: Signal lanterns burned high on the red sandstone cliffs above, and the Short Creek schoolyard was filling with men armed with clubs, vowing to spill blood in the name of God.

But when the police pummeled into town at 4 that morning, their sirens piercing the last hour of darkness, they found the town tranquil instead. The polygamists were gathered in the schoolyard singing America, with children playing at their feet.

"Our father's God to Thee, author of liberty, to thee we sing. Long may our land be bright with Freedom's holy light, protect us by thy might, Great God, our King."

The police seized the women and children, and hoarded the men into jails. Short Creek was emptied, but the polygamists' faith was filled. The raid was a test from God, they said, and the faithful would rise up, armed with all the strength of their Lord.

Now, 55 years after the Short Creek raid, the nation is deep into another invasion of polygamist country, in Eldorado, Texas. And this time, it's even harder to see the way. Should the law spare families or save children, prosecute polygamy or look the other way?

And there's the matter of freedom's holy light, which shines even on the darkest nights across that ranch in Texas. The right to worship is one of America's most precious liberties, but are the parents at that ranch earnestly permitting their children that same freedom to choose?

The ethics here are treacherous and the road to the end looks labyrinthine and long, but buried deep in the tale of the Short Creek raid is a map, of sorts. This has happened before, right down to children clutching their mothers' skirts and polygamists suffering in song. The story of Short Creek offers a glimpse at an arduous path to come.

For all the darkness that enclosed them that night, the people of Short Creek saw things clearly. It was a test, to be sure, but of polygamists and Pyle alike, a test of the law and the Lord. The Short Creek folks believed they were right about him, too, for whether the families found fortitude in God or in their own hearts, they did rise up, stronger than before.

Fleeing to God's land

Short Creek is tucked into the cliffs of the Arizona Strip, one of the emptiest places in America. Carved away from the state by the crevices of the Grand Canyon, the strip measures 3,000 square miles and is larger than Connecticut, Rhode Island and Delaware combined. In 1953, these 5 million acres were home to just 700 people.

Short Creek itself straddles the Arizona-Utah border and is known today as the twin towns of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah. It has long been country given over to God.

According to The Polygamists, by Short Creek historian Ben Bistline, the land was first used in 1867 as grazing pastures for cattle owned by the Mormon Church. In the 1890s, the church disavowed polygamy, and long-established plural families were being prosecuted. Wives were sent to the Short Creek valley to hide from police.

In 1935, devout polygamists who chose to defy the Mormon Church's plural-marriage ban began to search for a spot where they could come together in worship.

They believed the ban came from political pressure, not divine inspiration. The end of polygamy helped secure statehood for Utah and ended legal threats against the church. God had not revoked his commandment to take plural wives, the devout believed, and God wasn't going to let them into heaven with one wife alone.

Sympathetic property owners at Short Creek offered their land. The polygamists moved in, and, almost immediately, the state began trying to move them back out.

There were raids in 1935 and 1944, convictions for unlawful cohabitation and for the mailing of obscene material - the polygamists' Truth magazine, which espoused plural wives. A few men went to jail, but none served more than two years. Others were released on parole and a signed promise to leave polygamy behind. They agreed, and went promptly home to their wives and more weddings.

Pyle and his staff spent two years preparing for the raid of 1953.

"It has been, frankly, the one and only real sorrow of my administration," Pyle said of Short Creek in a radio address the morning after the raid. His task force plotted every house in town, listing and observing its residents, slowly building the state's case. Special investigators even posed as a movie company making a film in Short Creek, giving residents jobs and learning about their lives. They got close enough to find the perfect day to strike.

Tipped off

In Short Creek, the celebration of July 24 is almost bigger than Christmas. It's Pioneer Day, the anniversary of the Mormons' arrival in the Salt Lake Valley after a deadly wagon trek across the Plains. As Mormon prophet Brigham Young rolled up over the Wasatch Mountains in 1847, multiple wives in tow, he declared that "this is the place" where his people could worship free of persecution.

The Short Creek polygamists honored the Pioneer Day holiday as their own. Each year, the Saturday closest to July 24 brought all the Short Creek clan back home.

While rumors of a raid were whispered around town, the people of Short Creek focused on festivities. They huddled around a barrel of lemonade and homemade cookies, remembers author Bistline, then cleared out the schoolhouse to make way for a town dinner and a family dance. At the end, they gathered in a circle on the dance floor and bowed their heads in prayer. They gave thanks for one another and their corner of the world, and asked the Lord to keep their persecutors at bay.

Pyle and his task force knew that with the homes and beds of Short Creek filled, this was the night to raid.

But the polygamists had been tipped. They sent a teenage boy to stand sentry on the edge of town. Deep into the night, he came running into Short Creek, straight to the feet of the polygamists' prophet Leroy "Uncle Roy" Johnson.

"They are coming, they're coming!" the boy cried. "And there are hundreds of them."

Johnson ordered his flock to stand firm.

"My feet are tired of running, and I intend to turn to God for protection," he said, according to author Carolyn Jessop's account of the raid in Escape.

Families torn apart

Sirens bleating and lights aglow, the state burst in with a force 100 strong. There were sheriffs, highway patrolmen, members of the National Guard, judges from both Juvenile and Superior courts as well as the entire staff of the state liquor department, just for good measure.

They held warrants for 36 men and 86 women on charges that included rape, bigamy, polygamy, adultery, violation of Arizona's corporation laws, tax evasion and misappropriation of school funds. The 263 children of Short Creek were to be adopted into other families. The state also invited 25 carloads of media personnel from across the globe to accompany the invaders.

As the officers swept through town and surrounded the schoolyard, weapons dropped, the singing stopped and one of the Short Creek residents shouted, "We have run from you for the last time. We will shed our blood right here if need be."

Not a bullet was fired as officers moved the men into the schoolhouse and pulled crying children from the arms of screaming mothers, but the photographers' flashbulbs fired away. These turned out to be the most powerful weapons of all.

Photos of families being torn apart appeared on front pages of newspapers across the country and left a public pleading in favor of the polygamists. By Tuesday, an editorial on the front page of The Arizona Republic proclaimed the raid "a humiliation to the citizens of this state."

"Are those pig-tailed brides a threat to the safety of all Arizona?" the editorial read.

Pyle soldiered on. The men were taken to jail in Kingman. The children were released back to their mothers, who had to accompany the children on a bus to Phoenix or lose custody altogether. While the men were freed on bail, the women and children were farmed out to shelters and the homes of sympathetic Mormon families across Arizona. The state threatened the mothers with the permanent adoption of their children if the women left for even one day.

A lonely time

With all the women and children gone, Short Creek was a solemn place.

"It wasn't fun at all to be there alone," remembers Ben Bistline, who was 17 on the night of the Short Creek raid. Unmarried and of legal age, he was one of a few left in Short Creek. "I missed my mom, of course, but life just went on. We had cows to milk. We had to get up at 4 o'clock in the morning."

Every day, the men gathered at Fred Jessop's home on the Utah side of the border for breakfast and dinner, served by Jessop's wives. Most of the polygamists in Utah were spared arrest. In September, Life magazine published a pictorial of the men fending for themselves: "The Lonely Men of Short Creek."

"It was hard, that first Christmas, with gifts for the little ones lying on the bed and me there all alone," remembered Dan Barlow, in a 1991 interview.

Bistline spent nights writing letters to his 15-year-old sweetheart, who was in state custody with her mother. He remembers they went something like this: "Dear Annie, I miss you and blah blah blah, Love, Bennie."

Says Bistline, now 73: "I was mighty glad when they came home."

On Nov. 30, 1953, the Short Creek men went back to court, and 26 pleaded guilty to "conspiracy to commit open and notorious cohabitation." The misdemeanor carried a sentence of one year's probation. The state dismissed charges against 62 women and seven men. It turns out that in Arizona, polygamy is not a prosecutable crime. The state Constitution bans polygamy but gives no punishment.

The men left with a promise not to practice polygamy and a lecture from Judge Robert A. Tollar.

"I don't honestly believe that I can rehabilitate you gentlemen," Tollar said. "You have an unshaken belief, and I have heard not one word of repentance from any of you. To imprison you would not deter others but would make you martyrs."

And back to Short Creek they went.

"Organized polygamist activity no longer exists in Arizona," proclaimed Paul La Prade, Arizona's assistant attorney general.

But the following year, a lawyer for the mothers found a law that put Short Creek back together. It stated if a child's parents were living, that child could not be taken from the family without the parents' consent. Nearly two years after the raid, the mothers and children went home.

Living in fear

Pyle lost his bid for re-election in 1955, his political career ruined by public outrage over the raid.

The polygamists retreated behind the sandstone cliffs of Short Creek, galvanized by their victory. The raid had been a test, and the law failed while the righteous prevailed. They believed God had blessed them for their perseverance and punished Pyle.

"They picked up this big new religious fervor," says Carolyn Jessop, who lived in Colorado City for 35 years and wrote the best-selling book Escape about fleeing her faith.

The blessing of being reunited demanded strict new standards "that would set everybody in the community apart from society," she says.

The restrictions were piled on: No more pants for women, and no more choosing their own husbands, either.

"The Short Creek raid sabotaged the trust women had in the outside world," Jessop wrote in Escape. "They'd seen their terrified babies ripped from their arms. Uncle Roy stood up to the state of Arizona and won. He credited the victory in part to the faithfulness of the women . . . (who) believed they must be even more obedient to the prophet in the future."

The women stopped believing in freedom's holy light and looked to the light of their prophet instead. When they were told to obey their husbands or risk losing their children, they complied, even when this meant suffering and even disguising abuse, Jessop says.

When the prophet commanded that they marry a man 40 years older, they thanked him and obeyed. The law was no place to turn for help: Local police reported to the prophet. Contact with outsiders was forbidden. Even conversation with family members that turned against polygamy was not allowed.

After the raid of 1953, it was hard to see any way out of Short Creek.

Leaving for Texas

Flummoxed by the difficulties of prosecuting polygamy in Arizona, state officials played laissez-faire with Short Creek for years. Even now, polygamists avoid the law by marrying "spiritually," without marriage licenses. These unions aren't legally valid or, therefore, legally wrong.

"You get killed quicker in government doing your duty than turning your back," Pyle said in a speech 25 years after the raid.

And just like the polygamists promised on that night long ago, they found strength they hadn't had before.

By 2003, when Utah and Arizona authorities renewed their efforts to prosecute crimes in the area and polygamists began leaving the Short Creek/Colorado City area for the ranch in Texas, the population had grown to nearly 8,000. Multiple sects of Mormon-offshoot polygamists now worshipped there, each descended from the original Short Creek clan.

Even when authorities found secure grounds for prosecuting the polygamists, for charges like underage marriage or sexual conduct with minors, they were hard-pressed to find a woman who would aid the law and testify against her husband, against her faith.

History repeats itself

The second time the children were taken, in April of this year, police again approached polygamist country in the dark. An allegation of child abuse gave officials a pathway into the Yearning for Zion Ranch in Texas. They surrounded the ranch with an armored car and automatic weapons and again found the polygamists peaceful. While the officials searched their homes, the sect members sang and prayed.

Authorities took 449 children from the arms of their parents. Grandmothers who suffered through the Short Creek raid watched in tears. Mindful of the path to freedom they walked before, the polygamists posted the pictures of crying mothers and children on their Web site. Again the public balked. Again, the children were released back to their mothers.

"It's an exact repeat, right down to the way it's playing out," says Ken Driggs, an Atlanta attorney who has written and studied the history of the FLDS, or Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a name this sect adopted in 1987. "This kind of tactic has always backfired."

A greater fear

It's hard to see your way in polygamist country, and the most dangerous pathway through this, says Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, is the one that came before.

Arizona and Utah officials have carefully worked to carve exit routes from Colorado City for those who want to leave. They established the Safety Net Committee to help domestic-violence victims, and on the road into Colorado City, a large billboard now advertises a "safe talk" hotline.

But "if they fear us more than they do their abusers, they're never going to seek help," Shurtleff says. "It's this fear of government they've been taught from the cradle - 'See what happened in '53? If you seek help, they'll come and take everybody.' We keep telling them, 'No, no, no. If someone needs help, we'll handle that one case. There won't be a raid.'

"And now the polygamists are saying, 'See, we told you, we told you it would happen again,' " Shurtleff says.

There's another force at work here, too, a kind of unlikely glory that comes each time the police knock on the polygamists' doors.

Nothing makes a religion like a martyr. The Bible leans on the stories of those who put faith first, who sacrificed their freedom and their families, who laid down their lives for the Lord. Through all their persecution, the polygamists talk of nothing but strength.

"The outside pressure from the government only reinforces their convictions," says Driggs, "reinforces the belief that 'We are God's chosen people, and we are going to be persecuted for living God's laws.' "

In the polygamists' darkest hours, they say, the light shines more brightly on the pathway to God.

Republic researcher Joanne Dawson contributed to this story.

[stefan]

... and now for the conclusion ...



Jury finds sect leader guilty of sexual assault
By the CNN Wire Staff


San Angelo, Texas (CNN) -- A Texas jury found polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs guilty Thursday of two counts of sexual assault on a child.

Jeffs, who represented himself, remained stoic as the verdict was read. Jurors will deliberate again in the sentencing phase. The sect leader could face up to life in prison.

Jurors deliberated for less than four hours, beginning Thursday afternoon after Jeffs stood silently for most of his 30-minute closing argument.

It was the latest dramatic twist in a trial that has included sermon-like speeches about religious freedom and an audio recording that prosecutors allege documents Jeffs' sexual assault of a 12-year-old girl in the presence of three other "wives."

Jeffs, who is representing himself, is charged with two counts of sexual assault on a child and could be sentenced to life in prison if convicted. The charges stem from a 2008 raid on a ranch his church operates near Eldorado, Texas.

During closing arguments Thursday, Jeffs stared at the table in front of him for most of his allotted block of time, as Judge Barbara Walther counted down.

He looked up at the jury when he reached the 20-minute mark, staring at each member. The jurors stared back.

Five minutes later, Jeffs mumbled, "I am at peace."

The leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints spoke so quietly that people in the courtroom strained to hear him.

Prosecutor Eric Nichols warned jurors not to be swayed by Jeffs' frequent invocations of religious freedom as a defense.

The case, he said, has nothing to do with an attack on religion. Instead, it is about Jeffs and his actions, Nichols argued.

He showed pictures of Jeffs' alleged victims as he summed up his argument.

Jeffs began Thursday's hearing -- day five of his trial -- by asking for what he called constitutional protection because he represents a religious organization. The judge immediately denied his request.

The sect leader then questioned witness J.D. Roundy, a sect member who also had taken the stand for four hours the day before. He did not call additional witnesses to the stand.

"It's time for judgment to be rendered," Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott said Thursday. He was at the courthouse for the closing arguments. "We're extremely pleased with the pace the case has taken. ... We're look forward to getting the case to the jury and reaching a verdict."

On Wednesday, Texas prosecutors rested their case after playing a key piece of evidence for jurors: an audiotape they allege documents Jeffs' sexual assault of a then-12-year-old girl in the presence of three other "wives."

One juror wiped her eyes as she listened to the recording. Another looked at Jeffs out of the corner of her eye. Still another had a hand covering her mouth.

The girl had grown up in Jeffs' Yearning for Zion ranch, clearing cactus and attending a Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints school where Jeffs was principal, authorities said.

Prosecutors showed the jury a photo of Jeffs and the girl, with her arms around him, and a marriage certificate which listed the girl's age as 12 at the time.

Jurors then heard the 20-minute tape that began and ended with a man saying a prayer.

The man, alleged by prosecutors to be Jeffs, then addresses the purported victim by name.

At one point, the man asked her how she feels, and a girl replies in a small voice, "I feel fine, thank you." At another point, the man appears to address the others who are present.

Authorities seized the recording from the car Jeffs was traveling in when he was arrested in 2006.

On Tuesday, the jury heard audio recordings that prosecutors said showed Jeffs instructing a 14-year-old victim and his other young "wives" on how to sexually please him in order to win God's favor.

Prosecutors said the 14-year-old bore a child by Jeffs when she was 15.

Jeffs' trial started last week. He made no plea during his arraignment and remained silent for more than a day of the trial proceedings. But on Friday, he began repeatedly objecting -- at one point delivering an hourlong speech about his religious freedom "being trampled upon."

If convicted, Jeffs could be sentenced to five years to life in prison on the charge of aggravated sexual assault regarding the alleged 12-year-old. For the other count, he would face a sentence of two to 20 years.

Jeffs' breakaway sect is believed to have about 10,000 followers. Their practice of polygamy, which the mainstream Mormon Church renounced more than a century ago, is part of the sect's doctrine.

Jeffs was on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list when he was arrested five years ago during a routine 2006 traffic stop in Las Vegas.

He was convicted in Utah on two counts of being an accomplice to rape for using his religious influence over his followers to coerce a 14-year-old girl into marrying her 19-year-old cousin. Afterward, he was sentenced to two consecutive prison terms of five years to life.

But in July 2010, the Utah Supreme Court overturned his convictions, ruling that the jury instructions were erroneous. Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff said last week Utah is prepared to retry Jeffs, depending on the outcome of the Texas case.

The Texas legal proceedings were set off after about 400 children were taken from the sect's Yearning for Zion ranch in 2008. Jeffs was also charged with bigamy after the raid and is expected to be tried on that charge later.

Child protection officials said they found a "pervasive pattern" of sexual abuse on the ranch through forced marriages between underage girls and older men.

But the Texas Supreme Court ruled the state had no right to remove the children. The court also said the state lacked evidence to show that the children faced imminent danger of abuse. Most of the children were returned to their families, although some men at the ranch were charged with sexual abuse.

[Scott Card]

:nod: Good for Texas. :2thumbs:

[stefan]

..
Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs sentenced to life in prison


San Angelo, Texas (CNN) -- Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs was sentenced Tuesday to life in prison plus 20 years for sexually assaulting two girls he claimed were his "spiritual wives."

Jeffs, 55, will have to spend at least 45 years in prison before being eligible for release, according to Jerry Strickland, spokesman for the Texas Attorney General's office.

The jury sentenced Jeffs to life in prison for aggravated sexual assault of a 12-year-old girl and 20 years in prison for the sexual assault of a 15-year-old girl. He must serve at least 35 years of the life sentence and half of the other sentence, Strickland said. The judge in the case ordered that the sentences be served consecutively.

Jeffs perverted his position as the head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to "satisfy his own personal appetites and desires," prosecutor Eric Nichols said.

Those appetites included forcing sex on the two girls, 12 and 15, who he had taken as wives, prosecutors said.

Audiotapes seized from his car and the church's Yearning For Zion Ranch compound in Eldorado, Texas, and played for jurors during his trial, depicted Jeffs offering "celestial marriage" instructions to the young wives, according to prosecutors.

"You have to know how to be sexually excited and to help each other ... and you have to be ready for the time I need your comfort," a man's voice says. "This is your mission. This is how you abide the law.

At one point, the man says, "Take your clothes off. Do it right now," followed by the sounds of crying.

"Just don't think about the pain; you're going to heaven," the man says.

"Rarely if ever in the criminal justice system in Texas have we ever encouraged a person such as Warren Jeffs, whose criminal conduct spans decades, multiple jurisdictions and hundreds of victims," Nichols said.

A former member of the church, Rebecca Musser, said the verdict will not bring back lost innocence. But she said it can help others escape from abuse they may have suffered.

"Whether the currency is God or greed, the trafficking of women and children for sex is a form of slavery," she said.

Jeffs is the eighth person from the ranch to be convicted on sexual assault, bigamy and other charges, according to the Texas Attorney General's office. Four others are awaiting trial.

Attorney General Greg Abbott said he believes authorities have rooted out the molesters from the ranch, but will continue to monitor the church's activities there.
"We have an ongoing open investigation that will evaluate all evidence about any kind of wrongdoing out there at the compound whatsoever," Abbott said.

Jurors came back with the sentence after 30 minutes of deliberations Tuesday.
They began their work Tuesday morning following brief closing statements by prosecutor Nichols. Jeffs, who has argued that he and his faith were being persecuted, instructed his attorneys to deliver no closing statement.

"This is not the prosecution to persecute a people, this is a prosecution to protect a people," Nichols told jurors.

Jeffs did not attend the closing statement.

In addition to tape recordings that the state said depicted sex acts with minors, prosecutors also presented evidence that Jeffs knew he was wanted by federal authorities and that his behavior would be shunned by outsiders.

FBI Special Agent John Broadway testified that Jeffs ordered the destruction of various discs and transcripts three days after an arrest warrant was issued for him on June 10, 2005. The polygamist sect leader established "houses of hiding," allegedly with young girls for him to marry, Broadway said.

The FBI agent also read from a priesthood record, in which Jeffs allegedly wrote:

"Things are happening so quickly. There is an even younger girl that the Lord wants me to take. She is 13. For some reason the Lord is sending me these girls that can be worked with."

Jeffs also wrote: "If the world knew what I was doing, they would hang me from the highest tree," according to evidence presented in court.

Jeffs' breakaway sect is believed to have about 10,000 followers. Their practice of polygamy, which the mainstream Mormon Church renounced more than a century ago, is part of the sect's doctrine.

[Scott Card]

And he now has a whole new congregation to preach to!!!

[accadacca]

Some CRAZY pictures out there and they make me SICK. :nono:

47080
Family portrait: The picture shows dozens of Warren Jeffs's brides, lined up together as if they are posing for a school photograph


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024150/Warren-Jeffs-trial-Paedophile-gets-life-sentence-50-brides-photo-emerges.html

[CarpeyBiggs]

flame suit on...

but seriously, i see all this stuff, and i have to wonder, how does it make mormons reflect on the history of their own religious heritage?

joseph smith, on multiple occasions, actually took the wives of OTHER men. polygamy, AND polyandry. he married multiple teenagers, some as young as 14 years old.

a few facts -
34 total wives, (Emma being the only legal one)
11 who already were married.
10 teenagers, 2 being only 14

but even clicking through the family search records, you can see how bizarre the marriages truly are. here is one of the 14 year old girls that joseph married - http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/af/individual_record.asp?recid=1187464&lds=0&frompage=0

joseph smith, brigham young, heber c. kimball and countless other leaders of the early mormon church engaged in practices eerily similar to this. why do they get a pass, but we are so disgusted by the actions of warren jeffs?

[tanya]

I live close to Hildale and Colorado City where they live. It is the same as a cult and the children are brainwashed from birth. From what I understand there are 2 main sections out there. In both sects, marriages are arranged. Sometimes even the father has no choice as to how early and who will take his daughter to marry/breed - inbred children. Kids are abused otherwise as well. Out of all those wives if you are not a favorite then you and your children are often unwanted and more abused than others.

I saw what was suppose to be a true movie of a girl who was 15 who her and her father were forced by the profit to give her to him for financial reasons and the father had to show his daughter how to correctly "please" the disgusting old man.
http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Follow_the_Prophet/70134415?trkid=2361638


Here is an idea of the type of abuse that goes on out there....

The concept is that you have to break a child’s will before the age of 2. If you don’t, you’ll never be able to control them at the level that their salvation depends on. A baby may be crying because it is hungry. They would take the baby and spank it to really get it going. Then they hold the baby face-up under cold running water for 30 seconds, and as soon as it gets its breath and starts crying, they’d spank it again. A session like that could last an hour until the baby quits fighting from fatigue. That can happen frequently until the parent feels the baby is sufficiently broken.

http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com/2011/03/author-who-escaped-abuse-in-us-polygamy.html