Canyons near Moab

[shagster]

Is anyone going to be around the moab area doing canyons March 22-24, easter weekend? I would like to do a canyon or two, but I am not sure what is around. If anyone would like to meet up let me know. Any suggestions would be great also. I know there are going to be crowds galore, but thats not going to stop me. Thanks for the help. :2thumbs:

[ajroadtrips]

Is anyone going to be around the moab area doing canyons March 22-24, easter weekend? I would like to do a canyon or two, but I am not sure what is around. If anyone would like to meet up let me know. Any suggestions would be great also. I know there are going to be crowds galore, but thats not going to stop me. Thanks for the help. :2thumbs:

Not going to be down there, but my favorite is Dragonfly ( http://www.outdoorzen.org/site/beta/moab/dragonfly.html ). Second on my list is probably Not Tierdrop. ( http://www.outdoorzen.org/site/beta/moab/nottierdrop.html ).

Professor Creek is also way fun, but I'd save it for a warmer time.

Best.
DesertHiker

[moabmatt]

Moab is a fun place for canyons, but...

Desert Highlights had our annual route review with Arches National Park a couple weeks ago. Me and three rangers hiked Tierdrop, Lomatium and Dragonfly. These annual hikes are to monitor the conditions of the various areas we guide. Photos and notes are taken and this info is used by park managers to decide on whether to re-issue our annual permit.

I knew this year's review was gonna be a rough one because last year both Tierdrop and Dragonfly canyons were listed for the first time on public beta websites. Prior to this, no one but us visited these canyons, or if anyone did visit they did so without causing any discernable damage. Predictably, after the beta was released those canyons took (and are still taking) a beating! This year's review with the Park sucked!

It's amazing to observe just how little use is required to cause significant damage. We've been guiding those canyons for eight years - almost five hundred trips into Tierdrop Canyon alone - with very little impact. Now, after one year and perhaps a few dozen descents by parties armed with beta, that canyon is hammered! I know that no one is intentionally causing damage, but it's no surprise that it's happening. The root of the problem has been mentioned here before, and that is Tierdrop, despite being an easy hike with easy rappels, has some very complicated rigging in order to minimize impacts. This is not an easy canyon to rig. As we feared, the beta and "easy" rating attracts folks without the knowledge or gear to configure the complex rigging and descend that canyon without causing significant damage. Here are some examples:

At the first 20' rappel, we rig off of a sandstone mound about 130' back from the rappel. We use the Slick which facilitates rope retrieval without any damage to the very soft Entrada sandstone. This also avoids leaving any webbing behind. This year, on several occasions apparently, folks who have also decided to use this mound have simply ran their ropes directly around it and retrieved the ropes by pulling them as if it were a traditional pull-down rappel. The only thing more amazing than the friction that must have been overcome on the retrieval is the rope grooves left in their wake. They're massive! Now, the webbing we use in conjunction with the Slick on this mound has a habit of getting caught in these insanely deep grooves turning our rope retrieval into a wagering game. This excellent anchor we've used for years is barely usable now thanks to a few careless parties.

At the second 100' rappel we use cams in a horizontal crack for all but the guide, who retrieves the cams and uses the Slick to anchor to a small sandstone arch. Again, no webbing or gear is left behind and no damage to the arch. This year, at least two parties simply wrapped their rope directly around the arch and pulled. Now there is huge scarring in that little arch. Aesthetics notwithstanding, this arch is our ANCHOR! There's not much meat on it to begin with, so any amount of scarring is too much. That's why only the guide raps off it; the fewer loads it receives the better. We need it and we'd appreciate it if no one else adds to the scar or needlessly raps on it. Hand-sized cams (ie, 2.5 Friend or equivalent) work well in the horizontal cracks. There's a super-sketchy, "Wile E Coyote" sloped boulder next to one good horizontal crack and some folks have been using that boulder as an anchor. Yikes! If you use that boulder (or the small arch), at least have all but the last person go off of cams or something.

At the final rappel, we rig off of a couple short lengths of white 3/8" Sterling HTP wrapped neatly underneath a massive boulder. These two strands are the only fixed anchors we leave in the canyon. They are only visible to those who are standing right at the boulder and the NPS appreciates this. We rig the Slick off this so there is no rapide, carabiner or other hardware on the anchor. I mention this lack of hardware because last year someone too cheap to spare a couple bucks worth of metal simply ran their rope directly around our fixed anchor ropes and pulled! Now this should be obvious, but pulling one rope perpendicularly across another rope that is stationary will severely damage the stationary rope. When this person pulled their ropes, one of our anchor ropes was burned to the core and the other's sheath was significantly melted. Since beta came out we've also noticed webbing cropping up around another precariously-perched boulder far off on canyon-right. We've been leaving this webbing in place not necessarily to encourage folks to use it, but with the hope that it deters folks from sawing our anchor ropes in half again. We don't mind if you want to use our anchor ropes but please run your ropes through a rapide or biner, please. We do not use the boulder on canyon right for a number of reasons: it's not a very reassuring, solid-looking boulder and the start is awkward and, perhaps most important, it positions you for an unavoidable landing in crypto, or what used to be crypto. That vegetated area at the base of the rappel got obliterated last year! The rope pull also creates some truly heinous grooves in that soft Entrada. In fact, the rangers were pretty disgusted with the grooves. Also, anchoring to that boulder puts webbing in plain view of those hiking the adjacent rim to Sheep Rock, Three Gossips, et al. That was another thing that the rangers weren't crazy about. In contrast, our anchor ropes are neatly tucked under the massive boulder out of sight from hikers. Anyway, if you go down Tierdrop and see our white anchor rope under the big boulder, please leave it. They were gone a couple weeks ago. Realize that our anchor rope is not visible to anyone but you and is much safer and more environmentally sound then the other anchor on canyon right.

I know Shane has mentioned that we shouldn't complain about the damage in Tierdrop caused by folks using his beta since we also create rope grooves in there. This is a weak argument. Yes, there are grooves from our trips. Anytime a rope is weighted over sandstone some sand grains will be displaced. However, the slight grooving from our hundreds of trips with thousands of rappellers over eight years is trivial and less visible compared to the massive grooves caused by just the few dozen parties that have been down there in less than a year. The really nasty grooves are created when folks pull down their ropes from a double-rope rappel set-up. We don't do this since we use the Slick and don't do traditional double rope pull downs. Our grooves are caused from the weighted rope pressing against the rock while people are rappelling. There isn't the sawing action of the doubled ropes being pulled and as such the grooves are minimal. As I've said, it's amazing just how quickly the damage racks up. Unfortunately most folks who hike Tierdrop and Dragonfly probably do so once and leave it at that. They don't see what it was like before them, nor do they see what it is like after them. We go in there on a regular basis, however, and watching the past year's increasing damage has been heartbreaking.

Regarding Dragonfly, that's a pretty durable canyon with no-brainer anchors. The canyon itself looks good, but the developing network of social trails from the road to the area near the head of the canyon is atrocious! The rangers did not like this at all and they spent a good deal of time documenting this. I don't have access to either Shane's or Ryan's beta, so I don't know where they're telling folks to hike in from. Do not hike in from the Petrified Dunes pull-out! There is an all-rock route from the Milepost 6 gravel pullout where we park. It's a five-minute walk from this pullout to the canyon rim and with minor, entertaining routefinding there isn't a single step on crypto. Once at the rim, there is a ramp on the west rim that is directly across from the stair-stepping slot on the east rim. This is right at the start of the potholes. Ryan's site shows a picture of someone chimneying down a crack well before the potholes. If you find yourself there, you're too far upcanyon. This makes me wonder if Ryan's site (and perhaps Shane's) directs folks too far upcanyon and into the criss-crossing maze of social trails? The rangers were not happy with these at all. By the way, the bolted anchors in Dragonfly do not need slings on them. They are "Rap hangers" designed to be used without slings - just run the rope directly through the hangers and rap. Nonetheless, people are tying slings to the anchors and creating visual impacts from the rim. The rangers didn't care for this either. If you're concerned about equalization, then use a couple biners and equalize for all but the last person down. Without equalization, those bolts each hold about 75% of your bodyweight compared to about 60% with the equalized slings so it's not a big deal. Anyway, this isn't a resource impact, of course, but it is a visual impact. This is because the bolt hangers, by themselves, are not casually discernable to hikers from a distance, but when slings are tied to the them and formed into an obvious, linear "V" the whole station really catches your eye, even from a distance.

Bear in mind that the NPS in Arches does not view canyoneering with a gleam in their eye like the folks in Zion and elsewhere. This rope stuff doesn't seem to amuse them. Please don't make matters worse. Don't parade around Park Ave parking lot, Mile Marker 6 or the FF lot with ropes, helmets and such. No one in the park is impressed by ropes draped outside packs with dangling helmets and jingly metal clippy things. Put that stuff inside packs, please. Be discreet, please...

Website beta guys: You know that I like you guys. Really, I do. That said, please don't publish any more routes we guide. I realize that the demand for publishing new routes around Moab is strong. But, please... At least avoid publishing routes we "pioneer." Pretty Please?

I just wish you guys (and anyone else publishing beta, for that matter) will remember one thing: You guys don't need the approval of the National Park Service to make your money. We do. Please don't screw it up for us.

Cheers,
Moab Matt

[rockgremlin]

Good call Matt.

For Dragonfly, do you think it would be useful to erect one or two discreet cairns where you hike from the main road into the upper drainage in order to prevent a random network of social trails heading off in all directions?

[Iceaxe]

Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat....

And Matt, what of the routes I

[Iceaxe]

I know Shane has mentioned that we shouldn't complain about the damage in Tierdrop caused by folks using his beta since we also create rope grooves in there. This is a weak argument. Yes, there are grooves from our trips.

PS: I never made this statement. However, I did mention that Desert Highlights was responsible for it's fair share of the damage. And that the damage cause by Desert Highlights was how we first located the route. I never said any of the damage was acceptable or that others should not complain about it.

I recommend everyone "support leave no trace" to the best of their abilities.

:cool2:

[shagster]

Thanks for the info Matt and everyone else. I think I will just wait for these canyons until I can go with someone that has been through them before. That way I won't have to worry about causing damage to the canyons. I would hate for that. I really do appreciate the info. Thanks again... :nod: I think I will just stick with something easier this trip.

[Jaxx]

I don't have access to either Shane's or Ryan's beta, so I don't know where they're telling folks to hike in from.

Ryan's site shows a picture of someone chimneying down a crack well before the potholes.
:?

I thought we had a pretty good pull on that toadstool on the first rap. It used a ton of webbing and pull cord but didn't leave rope burn. My dad actually climbed up and checked it and then easily downclimbed/slid that first one. Next time I do teirdrop we will just bypass the first rap and slide! I am one of the people who used the crappy cairn style anchor for the second rap. Since I was the biggest I went down first with my dad and uncle backing it up. That way if it slides on me I can still get down safely and I don't get screwed without an anchor haha suckers! The last rap we did off that far right and when I got to the botton I didn't see any crypto, kindof sad to think about. Mabey a suggestion would be to stick a rapid on the rope you use and cut the other anchor out. That way it would be less damage on the rock and on your rope. It sounded to me like you were more worried about your rope than the damage done to the rock by the other anchor. If it is that important than make it obvious for dummies like myself.
I really enjoyed that canyon so I guess I owe you a thanks for finding it. So thanks. I will practice some different techniques on the last rappel so that we can rap off the rock your rope is on without doing damage.
I think Iceaxe is on to something with a couple well placed bolts in the canyon could solve the problem of rope grooves. Good luck trying to get that passed with the park service. What would happen if bolts showed up in the canyon, would the park take them out?

[ajroadtrips]

I think Iceaxe is on to something with a couple well placed bolts in the canyon could solve the problem of rope grooves. Good luck trying to get that passed with the park service. What would happen if bolts showed up in the canyon, would the park take them out?

According to their website (about climbing):

"No new permanent climbing hardware may be installed in any fixed location. If an existing bolt or other hardware item is unsafe, it may be replaced. This will limit all climbing to existing routes or new routes not requiring placement of fixed anchors."

http://www.nps.gov/arch/planyourvisit/climbing.htm

I would suspect they would have the same feeling about canyoneering. I tend to tread lightly in Arches, because I enjoy climbing and canyons there, and do not want to see more limitations.

Could you argue canyoneering isn't climbing? Probably, but I'd rather not see more restrictions... If bolts started showing up, they would likely add restrictions.

Please tread lightly and be respectful so that access stays open. Not Tierdrop, Tierdrops neighbor, is a better choice for less advanced canyoneers. (Easier anchors.)

http://www.outdoorzen.org/site/beta/moab/nottierdrop.html

[trackrunner]

[quote=Iceaxe]Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat....

And Matt, what of the routes I

[Iceaxe]

I suggest someone spend a few hours in Teardrop and establish some reasonable anchors. There are plenty of other methods besides bolts if someone wants to spend the time. And when I say the anchor should be flagged that usually means using something like red webbing so it can be easily seen by others.

FWIW: I do think this might be one of those rare cases where bolts are preferrable to the damage currently being done in Teirdrop. Hell, I'd bolt it except for one little problem..... I don't own a bolt kit. :ne_nau:

Dang Matt, I know you got some major skills and are located minutes away from this problem. I know you could have easily solved this problem in less time then you spent worrying about your permits and composing your previous post.

Alright everyone.... instead of bitchin' let's just solve the problem and move along.....

:cool2:

[moabmatt]

FWIW: I do think this might be one of those rare cases where bolts are preferrable to the damage currently being done in Teirdrop. Hell, I'd bolt it except for one little problem..... I don't own a bolt kit.

Hi Shane,

Placing bolts in Tierdrop will not solve the groove problem. Each rappel begins with a long, gradual slope of Entrada before going vertical. Unless you place the bolts well below these slopes - not practical - the resulting pull down will still groove the rock.


Dang Matt, I know you got some major skills and are located minutes away from this problem. I know you could have easily solved this problem in less time then you spent worrying about your permits and composing your previous post.

I did solve the problem - about eight years ago by inventing the Slick.

The problem now is that thanks to widely-available beta folks are now going in there without the means to retrieve ropes without significant grooving or leaving slings. So now you're basically asking me to solve a problem you created.

Unfortunately the Slick isn't available and likely won't be for some time, if ever. It's not that we're trying to keep the Slick to ourselves, it's a matter of simple business. There's just not enough of a market to sell enough units at a high enough price to cover costs, primarily product liability insurance costs. I really wish that weren't the case...

[quote=Iceaxe]And Matt, what of the routes I

[ratagonia]

[quote=Iceaxe]Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat....

And Matt, what of the routes I

[ratagonia]

I suggest someone spend a few hours in Teardrop and establish some reasonable anchors. There are plenty of other methods besides bolts if someone wants to spend the time. And when I say the anchor should be flagged that usually means using something like red webbing so it can be easily seen by others.

FWIW: I do think this might be one of those rare cases where bolts are preferrable to the damage currently being done in Teirdrop. Hell, I'd bolt it except for one little problem..... I don't own a bolt kit. :ne_nau:

Dang Matt, I know you got some major skills and are located minutes away from this problem. I know you could have easily solved this problem in less time then you spent worrying about your permits and composing your previous post.

Alright everyone.... instead of bitchin' let's just solve the problem and move along.....

:cool2:

Bringing the canyon down to your level? How about a staircase with handrails??? :nono:

Tom

[shagster]

Well good hell I didn't realize this was such a touchy subject :frustrated: . Sorry Ice for bringing you under fire on this one.

I'll just stay out of the Damn canyon so as to not cause you any grief Matt. Is that what your looking for? I agree everyone should be responsible and try to minimize impact on the canyon as much as possible. But I don't blame Shane one bit on wanting to share the beta with his Friends. I would do the same thing. Nothing wrong with sharing!! :five:

[Sombeech]

And telling your many fans to NOT DO THE CANYON if they can't pay the dues of not causing damage.

That's gonna stop them dead in their tracks. :roflol: Man, if I read that, I'd turn right around.

Well fellas, this is the new political forum. I knew the moaning would have to move somewhere. But seriously, blaming somebody for damage because they provided directions?

But then I guess the same thing happens with the bike community. Somebody builds a trail or a stunt, a kid gets hurt, and they want to see who they can sue. I used to think that the biker decided to ride that trail without the pressure of others.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Well fellas, this is the new political forum. I knew the moaning would have to move somewhere. But seriously, blaming somebody for damage because they provided directions?

'Beech, why do you even post in here? You have nothing to offer. Heaven forbid we actually have a dialog where people with opposing viewpoints express their opinions.

Please delete the canyoneering forum so we don't have to deal with this b.s. anymore.

[oldno7]

I hate going around following Dan and agreeing with him, or beliefs aren't even exactly the same but---what he said works for me. Close this section down--way to much controversy.
Now if someone will get busy--we need a new forum--bogley is broke

[RedRoxx]

Ha, I don't know the players here and all the undercurrents; but this is nothing compared to some cave grotto meetings I've been to. Cavers disagree who needs access, who causes damage, the land issue ( forest service is the evil empire in some areas it seems) informing private land owners what is on their property and the results---sometimes a friendly reception and sometimes at the end of a shotgun.

I respect the cavers who look into a room, with a pristine white crystal floor and delicate formations; see across the room a magnificent formation. But they would cause possible damage crossing the floor. And they say---"I don't need to go there." This is a cave dug open by these explorers, so a good chance they are the first people in this terrain, ever. Those folks have a strong respectful desire to protect the cave. So no beta is revealed as to location or whatever. Also of the two of the three cavers on that trip ( I wasn't one) they reburied the entrance and decided to never return. I hope that place remains undiscovered again forever.
Plenty of caves out there with access to all levels of interest and ability.

Off topic---so shoot me!!

[Sombeech]

Please delete the canyoneering forum so we don't have to deal with this b.s. anymore.

I'll just close your account down and see where it goes from there. :lol8:

[stefan]

how 'bout instead of calling time-outs and listening to the commentators,
we just let the players play the game?

[Jaxx]

I will show you how to solve anchor problems in tierdrop. Don't tell anyone that I showed you this. I will not take responsibility for damage done to yourself/others/rocks/gear. You understand that moabmatt will come beat you down for being in his canyon and I am not responsible for that. I am sorry that my mspaint skills are so lacking and that you have to have to try to decipher what I was trying to draw.

We used about 50 ft of webbing, tied back on itself to make a 25ft loop around the rock and about 100 ft of pull cord for the first anchor.

The second anchor was actually pretty sturdy. The slope it was on was a little nerve wrecking at first but it worked out. We tied the webbing to the rock and stacked a couple rocks in front of it. The drop isn't that far and its a big slope at first so I wasn't too worried. The last rap we did the far right. It does leave huge marks. Next time I do tierdrop I will rig something similar up as the first anchor.

Shag. Don't worry about the drama. I think moabmatt just wanted people to know about the problems he has in the canyon. We can thank Potter for the parks attitude on climbing. I would still go if I were you and figure out a way to minimize damage. You can use my anchor idea free of charge, actually I am pretty sure I stole that idea from Shane.

[shagster]

Thanks for letting me use your anchor idea Jaxx I appreacite it. At least someone is willing to show others a good way to minimize impact instead of just saying stay out I found the thing... :2thumbs: .

[Iceaxe]

Sorry Ice for bringing you under fire on this one.

No worries.... I'm here to kick ass and chew bubblegum...And I'm currently all outta bubblegum.

:lol8:

[Iceaxe]

Thanks for contributing a positive solution Jaxx....

FWIW: Teirdrop is already out of the bag and all the bitching and finger pointing in the world will not solve the current problem. No way to put the genie back in the bottle. If anyone really wants to do something useful come up with some realistic ideas to fix the current problem.

Anther mis-conception I noted in this thread.... Zion has never been happy with canyoneering. They have just been forced to deal with the issue before Arches. I know of NO National Park that is thrilled with the idea of individuals jumping in ever hole and crack in the park. Ideally a National Park would like to keep 100% of the population confined to a paved, fenced and touristized 10% of the park.

:cool2:

[Jaxx]

Thanks for letting me use your anchor idea Jaxx I appreacite it. At least someone is willing to show others a good way to minimize impact instead of just saying stay out I found the thing... :2thumbs: .

No problem. But I want to reiterate that I am pretty sure I got it from Iceaxe. If it wasn't him it was someone else, I'm just a follower :2thumbs:

Also: My dad actually climbed back up the first rap and watched me pull it. He wanted to see how well it pulled and if it would get stuck in some of the HUGE rope burns in the rock. He said it pulled beautifully and that it didn't make a mark on the rock. He also climbed back down with me spotting him, he didn't need the spot. skipping the first rap would solve part of the issue.

[mtreker]

Well I guess I'll add my two cents. I've done the canyon. It's a nice canyon that takes a couple of hour and is enjoyable. I saw it on Matt site like we all did and thought that would be fun.If Matt likes it or not his site encourages us to go find the canyons. It's just a matter of time before we find them. If he can't see this, he's not a smart man. You tell someone they can't do something, that makes them want to do it even more. I've also done granary and drangonfly I'd love to find out where Pleiades, Entrajo are and do them too. Thats my two cents.

[ratagonia]

Well fellas, this is the new political forum. I knew the moaning would have to move somewhere. But seriously, blaming somebody for damage because they provided directions?

'Beech, why do you even post in here? You have nothing to offer. Heaven forbid we actually have a dialog where people with opposing viewpoints express their opinions.

Please delete the canyoneering forum so we don't have to deal with this b.s. anymore.

Carpey - you missed the memo - this is a Rag-On-Shane thread, not a Rag-On-Beech thread.

Tom

[ratagonia]

And telling your many fans to NOT DO THE CANYON if they can't pay the dues of not causing damage.

That's gonna stop them dead in their tracks. :roflol: Man, if I read that, I'd turn right around.

Your missing the point (somewhat intentionally, methinks).

Shane spews about being a good environmental citizen, but he has had, and still has, an exciting opportunity to educate young, enthusiastic canyoneers in specific techniques to keep from ****ing up the canyon in a specific, very sensitive area. Instead, he dodges any responsibility with vague claims of ur, something - I can't really figure out what his claim is, other than its not HIS fault, when very, very clearly it is.

Shane's claim seems to be that because it is ****ing over my friend Matt, then it is all for the good. I see no reason why ****ing over members of the community, especially my friends, justifies assholian behaviour - perhaps Shane could enlighten us how the end justifies the means in this case.

And just to be clear, I absolutely support Shane's RIGHT to publish whatever bullshit he wants. Please respect my RIGHT to ATTEMPT to call him on the damage to the environment that his actions have perpetrated.

Tom

[skianddive]

Website beta guys: You know that I like you guys. Really, I do. That said, please don't publish any more routes we guide. I realize that the demand for publishing new routes around Moab is strong. But, please... At least avoid publishing routes we "pioneer." Pretty Please?

I just wish you guys (and anyone else publishing beta, for that matter) will remember one thing: You guys don't need the approval of the National Park Service to make your money. We do. Please don't screw it up for us.
OK, I'll add my 3 cents along with a possible solution.

Why not publish the beta yourself, Matt, with precise instructions on anchor locations, placements, and techniques? I'm sure you'll find that most canyoneers will be more than happy to follow your directions. And there are other retrievable anchors besides the Slick that you could recommend.

And this is *not* dumbing down the canyon - it's preserving it!

I think I can predict what you'll say....that this beta will detract from your business because people will not need to be guided in these canyons; however, I think you will find that your contribution to the community will help to project a more positive image for your business and result in more recommendations for your guiding and training services.

I'm sure the other purveyors of beta will be happy to link to your site or include your instructions to help disseminate them. Ultimately, your beta would protect the canyons from further damage and help to placate the NPS.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Why not publish the beta yourself, Matt, with precise instructions on anchor locations, placements, and techniques? I'm sure you'll find that most canyoneers will be more than happy to follow your directions. And there are other retrievable anchors besides the Slick that you could recommend.
Why would he? I can think of dozens of reasons why he shouldn't publish them. I can't think of many reasons why he should. Why do some people in the community feel like those who are out finding new canyons are under any obligation to share them? I don't ask to share Shane's wife, so why should I (or anyone else) share my unbeta-ed canyons?

The attempt at guilt tripping people for not providing beta is silly.


And this is *not* dumbing down the canyon - it's preserving it!
So why wouldn't we hold all beta-sprayers to this same ethic?


I think I can predict what you'll say....that this beta will detract from your business because people will not need to be guided in these canyons; however, I think you will find that your contribution to the community will help to project a more positive image for your business and result in more recommendations for your guiding and training services.
One of the important aspects of guiding a canyon is providing clients with an experience that is uncrowded and pristine. Matt not publishing his canyons has many variables to consider. One of those would be the fact that if he has clients in the canyons, running into other parties would significantly detract from the canyon experience, in my opinion. There is a lot of value in keeping the canyons pristine, both for the canyon's sake, and for his clients enjoyment. (IMHO, of course. Matt may have other reasons, and may not share my view. I'm just assuming)


I'm sure the other purveyors of beta will be happy to link to your site or include your instructions to help disseminate them. Ultimately, your beta would protect the canyons from further damage and help to placate the NPS.
Again, why don't we hold the other beta-sprayers to the same ethic?

Bottom line: I don't think Matt is completely without blame in the matter, nor do I think he is saying that he doesn't share some of the responsibility for protecting these canyons. It falls on the community in general. Whether Shane wants to publish these other canyons or not is his prerogative, but if he does, he holds a great deal of responsibility for educating folks on how to minimize impact in the canyon. And I am fairly certain that most of the folks now using these routes are getting their beta from Shane.

[Iceaxe]

Shane spews about being a good environmental citizen, but he has had, and still has, an exciting opportunity to educate young, enthusiastic canyoneers in specific techniques to keep from F*****g up the canyon in a specific, very sensitive area. Instead, he dodges any responsibility with vague claims of ur, something - I can't really figure out what his claim is, other than its not HIS fault, when very, very clearly it is.

Shane's claim seems to be that because it is F*****g over my friend Matt, then it is all for the good. I see no reason why F*****g over members of the community, especially my friends, justifies assholian behaviour - perhaps Shane could enlighten us how the end justifies the means in this case.

Wow Tom.... Your post reads like someone eating a muffin talks. I'm not sure how your getting all that info.... but it's wrong.

I don't think I've dodge the responsibility. Over the years I have done as much as anyone to educate others in clean canyoneering ethics.

In regards to Teirdrop I just screwed up. I didn't realize the anchors would be so difficult for others, my group had little problem anchoring our rappels safely without causing damage.

I've published hundreds of canyons, a few have suffered major damage because of my publishing them. But for the most part it's pretty rare. I find that the canyoneering community is responsible and does a pretty good job of cleaning up after themselves. I have yet to personally see the damage that matt is talking about, but if I understand correctly it was caused by a few inconsiderate groups and not the community at large.

My whole take on this thread has been let's just fix the problem in Teirdrop and stop wasting time on finger pointing.

:cool2:

[stefan]

My whole take on this thread has been let's just fix the problem in Teirdrop and stop wasting time on finger pointing.


folks who write guidebooks/guidesites all have differing perspectives on how and when to publish a route. some argue that one should do a route a few times and test it on others to see how they will do in it. the obvious reason for this is that it is sometimes really difficult to foresee how others will act. this can lead to writing a more sound, thorough, thought-out route description, which could eliminate at least some of the unforeseen problems.

it seems to me that PART OF the solution, is to have the solution (whatever it comes out to be) written up and presented on your site very clearly. i can understand your wanting to focus now on the solution. and while that's a very important topic, i think another very important topic is the responsibility and standards the community holds the guide authors to. you've preached an anti-bolt ethic and to minimize damage. so we know you have an interest in writing your guide so as to ensure that.
it seems that there are somewhere over 100 hikes on your site, so this isn't new to you.


i know you voiced some vague concerns about access issues in the park, and, of course, it's well known that arches has issues with impact of certain activities on the park, like climbing and canyoneering. given this kinda canyon is in arches, near moab, and relatively easy, it's more attractive to less experienced canyoneers, meaning that it's the kinda canyon that should raise red flags. and it could be argued that given that these hikes are in arches, there isn't the luxury of "screwing up" as there is a very real possibility that the park will respond adversely.

[Jaxx]

One point I thought of was that the people who knew about the anchors that Matt was using and reused them were probably people who had been guided through or got beta from those who were guided. I guess that is a bi-product of guiding people through canyons, they might come back later without the guide.

[ratagonia]

One point I thought of was that the people who knew about the anchors that Matt was using and reused them were probably people who had been guided through or got beta from those who were guided. I guess that is a bi-product of guiding people through canyons, they might come back later without the guide.

Unlikely.

Most of the people that Matt takes canyoning have little interest in doing it on their own. They come out, get taken through by a professional, have a great day, and go on to do something else. So...

Unlikely.

Tom

[Jaxx]

Unlikely.

Most of the people that Matt takes canyoning have little interest in doing it on their own. They come out, get taken through by a professional, have a great day, and go on to do something else. So...

Unlikely.

Tom

never say never. Oh wait you said unlikely...

[trackrunner]

After reading the beating Iceaxe has taken on here it remind me of this thread.
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3404&view=previous
Is Shane now the most controversial figure in canyoneering now? :lol8:
Sorry for the rubbing.

It has been published now it will never go away. Wait until it gets published to a wider audience in a new guide book. I vote lets come to an acceptable standard on the anchors.

[rockgremlin]

Hey Matt -

Just out of curiosity...on a percentage basis, how many of your clients are out-of-staters, who have had very little exposure to canyoneering in general?

I'm guessing these types constitute most of your business?