TPC Sports???

[Iceaxe]

Who in the hell are these guys??? I've never heard of them or their comapny....

TPC Sports
http://www.tpcsports.com/Canyoneering%20Utah.htm

Damn... the prices are cheap and they have guided trips to Zion listed, maybe someone should mention to them that guiding in Zion is illegal?

As an interesting side note that goes along with the recent ratings thread you guys might want to check out their ratings, which are a modified version of the ACA's. You also might note that when they rated the routes they used extreme inflation....

They have Eardley rated "X".... They have Mystery rated "R".... :roflol:

:popcorn:

[nat]

Who in the hell are these guys??? I've never heard of them or their comapny....

TPC Sports
http://www.tpcsports.com/Canyoneering%20Utah.htm


As an interesting side note that goes along with the recent ratings thread you guys might want to check out their ratings, which are a modified version of the ACA's. You also might note that when they rated the routes they used extreme inflation....

They have Eardley rated "X".... They have Mystery rated "R".... :roflol:

:popcorn:

Equally amusing is their X rating of Pine Creek and R for Keyhole. :haha:

Apparently Pine Creek has a "difficult to approach anchor point" and a possible required jump of a pothole, which if missed would mean "certain injury or death". :haha:

With Pine Creek an X, I wonder what they would rate something like E4 or Sandthrax?

[CarpeyBiggs]

Wow. Not exactly confidence inspiring, eh?

I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that none of their trips have any customers yet... But I sure would like to see Behunin, in all of it's "R" glory. :roflol:

[Alex]

Interesting, professional guides and all their pics have no helmets in sight anywhere. I know there is the battle of the helmet wearing among the pros, but when you are running a business and trying to attract customers, one would think that showing the best safety gear would provide reassurance to a potential client. Seems odd to me.

Wonder if they ripped most of the routes from climbutah, outdoorzen and tom's? :ne_nau:

[mrbrejcha]

:roflol: Mystery is a grade V :roflol:

[nat]

Looking thru their Kehole description again trying to figure out why an R. They mention a "multi pitch rap to 50'. :roflol:

The only menton of "risk" is: "Some walk in permits are available, but this is risky...". Must be a solid X, trying to get a walk in permit on holiday weekends. :haha:

[rockgremlin]

"The the physical and mental challenge the sport brings, fuel his thirst and passion to learn and train as much as he can.

He is a serious prodigy to the sport of canyoneering."

The the site looks looks pretty ghetto ghetto. BTW, what is is a "serious prodigy?" :roflol:

[CarpeyBiggs]

The the site looks looks pretty ghetto ghetto. BTW, what is is a "serious prodigy?" :roflol:

A serious serious prodigy is someone who can turn Mystery into a X rated canyon... :lol8:

[tanya]

The the site looks looks pretty ghetto ghetto. BTW, what is is a "serious prodigy?" :roflol:

A serious serious prodigy is someone who can turn Mystery into a X rated canyon... :lol8:


A few naked co-eds can do that quickly. :cool2:

[stefan]

yeah, i found this site sometime last june or so and pointed it out to tom.



also this is the kind of experience these guys are trying to bring



Finally, hours later, you are at the mouth of the canyon, it is conquered, and you find satisfaction in knowing you accomplished your task. It was you against nature and you won. You proved to yourself you have the grit it takes to shoulder an awesome task and come off the victor.


i guess i always felt canyoning was about moving with the canyon and not against it.

[Iceaxe]

Wonder if they ripped most of the routes from climbutah, outdoorzen and tom's?

I notice a lot of direct cut-n-paste items from Climb-Utah, Tom's Canyoneering and the ACA site.

[Sarcasm ON]
I'm sure all their insurance papers, BLM permits and National Park guiding licenses are in order....
[Sarcasm OFF]

:roll:

[CarpeyBiggs]

I notice a lot of direct cut-n-paste items from Climb-Utah, Tom's Canyoneering and the ACA site.

Wait, is that frowned upon?

[Iceaxe]

I was just sayin'.... I wasn't passin' judgement.

You have to go to church to learn how to judge.

[Scott Card]

I don't know these guys so no judgment on them or their skills but the canyon ratings are scary if not dangerous. Are they trying to re-write the canyon rating system to apply to complete rookies with no outdoor experience? Is that the measure of a rating system? They seem to use the R and X liberally. Yikes... Larry an R, Blue John an R, the Black Hole 4BX? And in Zion, like others have pointed out, Pine Creek an X along with Heaps and Keyhole an R? Granted Pine Creek gets a 3 rating not a 4 but an X???? It is a scary thing to ramp up the ratings, presumably for the purpose of adding excitement to those who would request their services. One day those "tourists" may just step into a canyon without these guides and use their bogus knowledge of this exaggerated rating system as their point of reference. Assume you have done Pine Creek and then want to ramp it up one step and do Heaps, another X canyon. They aren't even close. Dangerous. And what is with the M rating? Calf Creek "Not for first time canyoneers by themselves without climbing experience and proper equipment." Holy crap. Calf Creek is perhaps the flattest hike in the state. I'm not liking these ratings at all. Can I say it again? Dangerous.

** edit*** and they are guiding in Zion.... Hmmm.

[stefan]

i agree, scott, it's certainly an irresponsible use/abuse of the rating system and has the potential for the scary consequences you suggest.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: Zion National Park has been notified of possible illegal guiding within the park.

The last thing that recreational canyoneers need is to be competing for canyon permits against professional guide services.

:popcorn:

[RAM]

Ray and the park were notified last year about this organization. They were contacted. The organization promised not to guide in the park, but still had it on their schedules. The park took advantage of the calender and lay in wait for these fellas...but to no avail. They were not to be found in the routes on the days advertised. This organization was asked to remove the Zion info last year. The park found out recently that that has not happened. Next? Ummmm
Ram :ne_nau:

[Iceaxe]

From reading the website I get the impression that the client is asked to pick up the permit..... makes it kind of hard to trap the guides. This is the kind of stuff that gives guiding a bad name, you know dang well these guys don't have insurance, and most insurance companies I know of have an out if you were in the process of breaking the law.

[Brian in SLC]

Geez, they have space available for trip in '08 that include a few Zion canyons.

As well, if they guide on any public land in Utah, they need a permit. Wonder if they have one for the area's outside of Zion? Bet not. BLM land, methinks?

Someone oughta send the BLM office for those areas a head's up.

Ugh...

-Brian in SLC

[Stick]

From reading the website I get the impression that the client is asked to pick up the permit

If any guiding service asked me to pick up any necessary permits that would raise red flags as to how 'professional' they are. Not that I would use any guiding service for canyoneering in Utah given what they currently charge.


you know dang well these guys don't have insurance, and most insurance companies I know of have an out if you were in the process of breaking the law.

This is probably why their rates are so low compared to other guiding services around.

[ratagonia]

Geez, they have space available for trip in '08 that include a few Zion canyons.

As well, if they guide on any public land in Utah, they need a permit. Wonder if they have one for the area's outside of Zion? Bet not. BLM land, methinks?

Someone oughta send the BLM office for those areas a head's up.

Ugh...

-Brian in SLC

Did.

(Part of keeping the Empire functioning smoothly).

Tom

[ratagonia]

From reading the website I get the impression that the client is asked to pick up the permit

If any guiding service asked me to pick up any necessary permits that would raise red flags as to how 'professional' they are. Not that I would use any guiding service for canyoneering in Utah given what they currently charge.


you know dang well these guys don't have insurance, and most insurance companies I know of have an out if you were in the process of breaking the law.

This is probably why their rates are so low compared to other guiding services around.

Without insurance, permits and training, professional guiding would be considerably less expensive. Then again, it would not be professional.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Part of keeping the Empire functioning smoothly.

:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:

[Stick]

From reading the website I get the impression that the client is asked to pick up the permit

If any guiding service asked me to pick up any necessary permits that would raise red flags as to how 'professional' they are. Not that I would use any guiding service for canyoneering in Utah given what they currently charge.


you know dang well these guys don't have insurance, and most insurance companies I know of have an out if you were in the process of breaking the law.

This is probably why their rates are so low compared to other guiding services around.

Without insurance, permits and training, professional guiding would be considerably less expensive. Then again, it would not be professional.

Tom

I hope I did not give the impression that I have a low opinion of guiding companies. I don't. I think it would a good thing to have a professional guide along in a slot canyon. I could learn a lot from them. The only thing for me is I can't afford to pay $250 - $350 for a trip. So I do what is most cost effective for me. That is getting route information from Tom's site, Shane's site, and whatever other resources I can find. It is also better if people who know more than me come with.

[mrbrejcha]

what is is a "serious prodigy?" :roflol:
A serious serious prodigy is someone who can turn Mystery into a X rated canyon... :lol8:

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol: :five: :roflol: :roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[ratagonia]

I hope I did not give the impression that I have a low opinion of guiding companies. I don't. I think it would a good thing to have a professional guide along in a slot canyon. I could learn a lot from them. The only thing for me is I can't afford to pay $250 - $350 for a trip. So I do what is most cost effective for me. That is getting route information from Tom's site, Shane's site, and whatever other resources I can find. It is also better if people who know more than me come with.

No offense taken. Different strokes for different folks. Capitalism at work.

(And it's $ 149.00 per person (on a 2-person trip) per day for the Canyon Adventure Day).

http://zionadventures.com/canyon%5Fadventure%5Fday770.html

Tom

[Canyonbug]

No offense taken. Different strokes for different folks. Capitalism at work.
Tom

Amen Tom,