Pull Cords?

[Bo_Beck]

Just curious what diameter pull cords are most frequently being used when using the "Single Rope/ Biner or Knot Block Technique"?

It seems to me that the technique is being used quite commonly and I'm a bit confused as to why?

Pine Creek has a longest drop of 100'. 100' of 9mm rope weighs what? Maybe 5 lbs?.....ok........100' of 6mm cord maybe 2-3 lbs? So if I carried 1-100' 9mm and 1-100' 6mm, I have saved having to carry maybe 3lbs?

Maybe I'm not getting the drift, but I would much rather descend on 2 ropes than 1 if possible, plus the wear is distributed more uniformly on 2 vs 1. In addition if for some reason I had 1 of the ropes snag on a previous rappel and had to chop the rope to continue???? I still have enough rope and better chance to complete my hike.

Clue me in? Just curious as to why this technique has pretty much become the norm?

[rockgremlin]

Good question. I think it might come down to economics. One rope + one pull cord = cheaper than two ropes. Plus most people buy ropes in 150' to 200' lengths, not 100'. So in order to have a length of 100', you gotta either purchase it that way, or chop up one of your 50m or 60m ropes.

But you definitely have a good point.

[Scott Card]

I don't disagree with the economics being a reason but folks, our lives are literally "on the line". Seems like a cheap life insurance policy to buy a second rope. I agree with Bo. Go double almost always. I rarely use a single line. I use it when the drops is into a water filled pot hole when we can see to extend the rope to the right length to avoid a water disconnect. I have admittedly employed a single line on the second to the last rap in Heaps due to our 300 foot ropes being used on the final rap and not having 2-200 footers. My group and I usually have at least two times the rope needed for the longest rap and usually more like three times the length for the longest rap. Yet another reason I like larger groups (4 plus canyoneers) You can carry more rope. You have to carry a pull cord, why not just carry a rope instead? I wonder what the weight difference really is? Also, rope bags are a big help due to the ability to extend rope to the right length and then chucking the bag or clipping it on to your belt. You can carry longer ropes but not spend so much time coiling the unused rope. Just a couple of rambling thoughts. :popcorn:

[oldno7]

good question Bo

and I'm guilty--

I have a 60m canyon rope and a 60m 6mm pullcord.

I bought them with the idea of things like the spry entrance rappel

the behunin last rappel,etc. with a 300' rope we're good for only 150'

I prefer not to use a pullcord if I have enough rope doubled.

what about the other trend to 8mm rope to save weight?

maybe we need to work out more to carry the additional 3-5lbs. :haha:

p.s. Bo--I bought the pullcord from you,does that help. :mrgreen:

then theres Tues.--Rich and I are doing a new canyon(no beta)

we packed 3-200' ropes---used 160' of 1,damm that was heavy the last 3 miles out :lol8:

[jumar]

Just curious what diameter pull cords are most frequently being used when using the "Single Rope/ Biner or Knot Block Technique"?

It seems to me that the technique is being used quite commonly and I'm a bit confused as to why?

Pine Creek has a longest drop of 100'. 100' of 9mm rope weighs what? Maybe 5 lbs?.....ok........100' of 6mm cord maybe 2-3 lbs? So if I carried 1-100' 9mm and 1-100' 6mm, I have saved having to carry maybe 3lbs?

Maybe I'm not getting the drift, but I would much rather descend on 2 ropes than 1 if possible, plus the wear is distributed more uniformly on 2 vs 1. In addition if for some reason I had 1 of the ropes snag on a previous rappel and had to chop the rope to continue???? I still have enough rope and better chance to complete my hike.

Clue me in? Just curious as to why this technique has pretty much become the norm?
I've often wondered the same thing. I almost always double strand. But it might be just because that's what I've always done in climbing and old habits die hard.

[Iceaxe]

This has been one of my main complaints with some of the schooling available for local canyoneers. The schools teach a lot of different techniques for canyoneering, tools for the toolbox I think they call it..... but the students do not get enough practical experience to really understand when and why to use each technique.

:popcorn:

[stefan]

what about the other trend to 8mm rope to save weight?


i don't see a problem with using 8mm rope. also, it's to save weight and volume. the weight differential also is important when the rope becomes saturated with water.

8mm rope is strong enough to use for canyoneering purposes. of course one needs to be mindful of the condition of the rope and stop using it when it's become questionable. one use that comes to mind, for which the difference is more pronounced, between 8mm and something larger, is jugging up a rope which hasn't not be protected from the rock. the jugging motion on an 8mm can likely/possibly wear down the sheath on an 8mm more rapidly than a larger rope.

[hank moon]

i always use SRT when possible/appropriate due to following practical advantages:

- lighter, more compact
- faster, easier to rig + inspect
- significantly faster when leapfrogging w/rope bags

for my use, DRT only brings disadvantages

that said, DRT has its own set of mainly theoretical advantages which are of lower priority for me than the practical advs of SRT:

- less chance of rope cutting
- more friction
- backup rope if needed
- ropes last longer

DRT highly recommended for beginner and intermediate canyoneers who have limited experience with SRT. Start w/DRT to gain experience , then explore SRT if so inclined. YMMV, WYA, YSYR, etc.

[Bo_Beck]

good question Bo

what about the other trend to 8mm rope to save weight?

maybe we need to work out more to carry the additional 3-5lbs. :haha:

p.s. Bo--I bought the pullcord from you,does that help. :mrgreen:

then theres Tues.--Rich and I are doing a new canyon(no beta)

we packed 3-200' ropes---used 160' of 1,damm that was heavy the last 3 miles out :lol8:

I'd prefer to use doubled 8mm over single 9mm any day. 36kn vs 20kn sets my mind at ease even though its overkill either way, but then I like the friction as well!

Glad you can put it to good use! Sounds fun...a first descent.

First trip I made in H@#ps Canyon we (Mike, Mark and I) carried over 1100' of rope with us. All of it being dynamic 10.5mm except the 2-300' chunk's of 8mm accessory cord. Now I only carry 700' of 8mm thru said canyon.

I guess that my concern is that it has become common practice to use single rope technique whether needed or not. Certainly there are times that it comes into play, but if one has enough rope to do double rope, then I support this technique.

[oldno7]

what about the other trend to 8mm rope to save weight?


i don't see a problem with using 8mm rope. also, it's to save weight and volume. the weight differential also is important when the rope becomes saturated with water.

8mm rope is strong enough to use for canyoneering purposes. of course one needs to be mindful of the condition of the rope and stop using it when it's become questionable. one use that comes to mind, for which the difference is more pronounced, between 8mm and something larger, is jugging up a rope which hasn't not be protected from the rock. the jugging motion on an 8mm can likely/possibly wear down the sheath on an 8mm more rapidly than a larger rope.

whats the differance in rope strength?

isn't the 8mm rated around 2800lbs?

most 9+mm are over 5000lbs.

so generically speaking--

if our biners,harness,descending device,rapides,webbing are all rated

over 5000lbs why do you want a rope with little more than 1/2 that strength?

[hank moon]

if our biners,harness,descending device,rapides,webbing are all rated

over 5000lbs why do you want a rope with little more than 1/2 that strength?

because it is sufficient for the task (for some).

keep in mind that the strength of harnesses, 'biners, etc. is largely driven by rock climbing where higher forces are involved than those experienced in canyoneering.

[oldno7]

if our biners,harness,descending device,rapides,webbing are all rated

over 5000lbs why do you want a rope with little more than 1/2 that strength?

because it is sufficient for the task (for some).

keep in mind that the strength of harnesses, 'biners, etc. is largely driven by rock climbing where higher forces are involved than those experienced in canyoneering.

Hi Hank

I'm asking this because I don't know--

If a have a 200lb rock climber on dynamic line vs. a 200lb canyoneer

on static line--if I drop both people 10' (shock load)the rock climber will exert less force on the rope? What about force on anchor?

and these forces will not exceed a 8mm ropes limits?

like I said I'm asking because I don't know.

[hank moon]

If a have a 200lb rock climber on dynamic line vs. a 200lb canyoneer

on static line--if I drop both people 10' (shock load)the rock climber will exert less force on the rope? What about force on anchor?

like I said I'm asking because I don't know.

play w/this a bit:

http://en.petzl.com/petzl/Conseil?Conseil=56

of course, high forces can be experienced in canyoneering...esp. with the ultrastatic ropes (e.g. canyon pro)

[Bo_Beck]

if our biners,harness,descending device,rapides,webbing are all rated

over 5000lbs why do you want a rope with little more than 1/2 that strength?

because it is sufficient for the task (for some).

keep in mind that the strength of harnesses, 'biners, etc. is largely driven by rock climbing where higher forces are involved than those experienced in canyoneering.

So the 220lb (1kn) guy rapelling the last drop in Pine Creek, loses control and his friend at the bottom also 220 lbs (1kn) immediately employs the "conditional belay" with all his force and stops his friend from smacking the bottom, doesn't create forces similar to those that might be present in a lead fall? I for one hope that companies dealing with the construction of "Canyoneering" gear don't decide to skimp on gear designed specifically for "canyoneering". I call it "Safety Factor".....you call it beginner/ intermediate...we will all call it what we will! You use one rope...i'll use one rope unless I have two :five:

[price1869]

just 2 cents here:

I have yet to hear of a rope breaking - causing a canyoneering accident. If you're not comfortable using pull cords, don't. Best to concentrate on technique and let BW and Edelweis deal with the breaking strength of a single strand of 8 or 9mm rope.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[hank moon]

So the 220lb (1kn) guy rapelling the last drop in Pine Creek, loses control and his friend at the bottom also 220 lbs (1kn) immediately employs the "conditional belay" with all his force and stops his friend from smacking the bottom, doesn't create forces similar to those that might be present in a lead fall?

a lead fall can generate up to 10 kN. The scenario above, prolly no more than 4 kN.


I call it "Safety Factor".....you call it beginner/ intermediate...we will all call it what we will! You use one rope...i'll use one rope unless I have two :five:

Point is: experts can make do with a lower safety factor due to greater experience, knowledge, etc. Beginners, etc. should maintain a higher safety factor. It's not a slam...just the fax, ma'am.

[oldno7]

So the 220lb (1kn) guy rapelling the last drop in Pine Creek, loses control and his friend at the bottom also 220 lbs (1kn) immediately employs the "conditional belay" with all his force and stops his friend from smacking the bottom, doesn't create forces similar to those that might be present in a lead fall?

a lead fall can generate up to 10 kN. The scenario above, prolly no more than 4 kN.


I call it "Safety Factor".....you call it beginner/ intermediate...we will all call it what we will! You use one rope...i'll use one rope unless I have two :five:

Point is: experts can make do with a lower safety factor due to greater experience, knowledge, etc. Beginners, etc. should maintain a higher safety factor. It's not a slam...just the fax, ma'am.

so experts cannot make mistakes and if they do they shock load a rope and anchor less than begginners? :ne_nau:

your lead fall example above pretty much uses up the limits of a 8mm line.
what if that line is on a semi sharp edge?

[Bo_Beck]

So the 220lb (1kn) guy rapelling the last drop in Pine Creek, loses control and his friend at the bottom also 220 lbs (1kn) immediately employs the "conditional belay" with all his force and stops his friend from smacking the bottom, doesn't create forces similar to those that might be present in a lead fall?

a lead fall can generate up to 10 kN. The scenario above, prolly no more than 4 kN.

Go bounce on a scale sometime Hank...let me know if you can generate more than double your mass?


I call it "Safety Factor".....you call it beginner/ intermediate...we will all call it what we will! You use one rope...i'll use one rope unless I have two :five:

Point is: experts can make do with a lower safety factor due to greater experience, knowledge, etc. Beginners, etc. should maintain a higher safety factor. It's not a slam...just the fax, ma'am.

[oldno7]

I'm not a spokesman for the ACA, although I am a member.

couple points:

I strongly believe in the ACA and it's teaching.

having said that I think there is a lot of excellant training

going on but not all who are trained get the immediate chance

to apply the newly learned craft,training does no good and is lost

if not applied on a frequent and regular basis.

Experience is our best teacher but experience is best followed by instruction,(helps to have a good experience.)In this sport a bad experience can easily be fatal.

I can't imagine anyone having every tool for every circumstance,if thats true then we can all do better.

which tools do we need? the one that most effeciently solves our current problem.(sounds like infinity to me)

Sorry for the hi-jack Bo but there was earlier mention of toolbox,maybe this is a good read on the subject.http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1742

I've got a lot to learn but I try to get in 1-2 canyons a week for practice.
building me up a "toolbox"

anyone going through the Cedar area give me a holler, I'm always up for a canyon.(bring your toolbox,we'll compare) :mrgreen:

[Iceaxe]

There are people misusing the tools in their toolbox and others who don't know how to use the tools (or don't even own the tools)

Hard to argue with that....

And I don't have a good solution for correcting the problem, but I agree that it exists and it is a problem.

:popcorn:

[hank moon]

so experts cannot make mistakes and if they do they shock load a rope and anchor less than begginners?


Unlike the beginner, the expert knows/calculates / anticipates what he is getting himself into and acts accordingly. Fed. OSHA allows a 2:1 safety factor for engineered personal fall arrest systems (PFAS), but requires a significantly greater safety factor for a non-engineered system.


your lead fall example above pretty much uses up the limits of a 8mm line.
what if that line is on a semi sharp edge?

kumquats and starfruit ^ v

bo: jumping on a scale? How about attaching a 100' static line to a dynomometer and bouncing on that (say, at the 50' mark) - the scale + body scenario lacks an energy-absorbing rope.

[Bo_Beck]

kumquats and starfruit ^ v

bo: jumping on a scale? How about attaching a 100' static line to a dynomometer and bouncing on that (say, at the 50' mark) - the scale + body scenario lacks an energy-absorbing rope.[/quote]

You are right Hank.
The point I really want to make addresses the overall safety that becomes an inherent part, and ultimate responsibilityof those who chose to enter technical canyons.

Let me ask you this: If you are descending a vertical canyon and have 2 ropes, each of which is long enough to enable you to accomplish the longest rappel, time is not of the essence and you have the choice of using single rope technique or double rope technique, which method will you use and why?

If you choose the single rope technique? Is it because you are an expert and double rope technique is beneath you? No *Slam* intended.

You state that single rope technique using the bag and go method is faster....why? You still either have to bag or coil a pull cord if employing such method. If you are setting the length of a single rope, why is it faster to set a block and use one cord rather than grabbing both cords and using them? How long does it take you to unclip a rappel devise from your harness and rope? I figure it takes me no more than 5 seconds. Leapfrogging and setting up rappels in series with double rope? Feed the end while folks are on their way down.

Don't get me wrong....I see the merits of single line in certain situations, but to use it just for the sake of using it makes absolutey no sense to me at all.

[oldno7]

So Mr. Riddler--er ah Hank

riddle me this---

you say the 8mm line is adequate @ 2800+- breaking strength

you say a fall could generate 10kn

on top where your rope is anchored you have a hitch,knot

how much strength is reduced by either,25-30%?

so in real life the 8mm line will break at 1960-2100lbs?

where are we achieving 2:1 safety margin

don't we need closer to 4500 lbs(kn=225)? :ne_nau:

also--I am a beginner so doing something less than perfect is in my realm.

[Bo_Beck]

So Mr. Riddler--er ah Hank

riddle me this---

you say the 8mm line is adequate @ 2800+- breaking strength

you say a fall could generate 10kn

on top where your rope is anchored you have a hitch,knot

how much strength is reduced by either,25-30%?

so in real life the 8mm line will break at 1960-2100lbs?

where are we achieving 2:1 safety margin

don't we need closer to 4500 lbs(kn=225)? :ne_nau:

also--I am a beginner so doing something less than perfect is in my realm.

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that SSSF doesn't come into play with this debate. If we look at it the way Hank see's it...the rope strength issue is a mute point. Realistically the weak link in any "canyoneering" scenario is the human mind and I would argueablly {spelling?}have to throw in 'ANCHORS'. I believe that a lot of accidents were not caused by equipment failure, but rather by human error or anchor failure or a combination of both. I look closely at accidents that I have personally been involved with (whether my own or those of others) and wonder what could have been changed to prevent it. Some of the accidents occured to "experienced" or so proffessed, "canyoneers", and I believe that if double ropes had been used in lieu of single rope, the accident would never have occured.

FWIW

Bo

[stefan]

you say the 8mm line is adequate @ 2800+- breaking strength


so ... one thing that should be addressed first is this number you quote.

this number depends upon the rope used. so ... i don't know what is the tensile/breaking strength for the full spectrum of ropes, but here are some numbers for the following canyon ropes:

imlay canyon rope (8mm) ~ 3900 lbf
imlay canyon rope 9mm) ~ 4500 lbf
BlueWater II (8mm) ~ 4000 lbf
BlueWater Canyon Pro (8mm) ~ 5000 lbf
BlueWater Canyon Xtreme (8mm) ~ 5800 lbf

couldn't directly find value for the Beal Static Trail Line but it might be about 3080 lbf?

[Bo_Beck]

you say the 8mm line is adequate @ 2800+- breaking strength


so ... one thing that should be addressed first is this number you quote.

this number depends upon the rope used. so ... i don't know what is the tensile/breaking strength for the full spectrum of ropes, but here are some numbers for the following canyon ropes:

imlay canyon rope (8mm) ~ 3900 lbf

Ok so lets look at this for SSSF! 3900LBF = < 18kn. Single rope technique with a knot block = 30% reduction or 12.6kn. ......we have a SSSF of 12.6:1

We are looking pretty good!

Now lets look at the same using 2 ropes! 18knx2=36kn-30% (knot tying two ropes together)=25.2kn.... I'd say that now we are looking at a 25.2:1 SSSF...

I'd say both are acceptable.

I just reitertate....which system is easier to descend upon whether experienced or not?

[oldno7]

So Mr. Riddler--er ah Hank

riddle me this---

you say the 8mm line is adequate @ 2800+- breaking strength

you say a fall could generate 10kn

on top where your rope is anchored you have a hitch,knot

how much strength is reduced by either,25-30%?

so in real life the 8mm line will break at 1960-2100lbs?

where are we achieving 2:1 safety margin

don't we need closer to 4500 lbs(kn=225)? :ne_nau:

also--I am a beginner so doing something less than perfect is in my realm.

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that SSSF doesn't come into play with this debate. If we look at it the way Hank see's it...the rope strength issue is a mute point. Realistically the weak link in any "canyoneering" scenario is the human mind and I would argueablly {spelling?}have to throw in 'ANCHORS'. I believe that a lot of accidents were not caused by equipment failure, but rather by human error or anchor failure or a combination of both. I look closely at accidents that I have personally been involved with (whether my own or those of others) and wonder what could have been changed to prevent it. Some of the accidents occured to "experienced" or so proffessed, "canyoneers", and I believe that if double ropes had been used in lieu of single rope, the accident would never have occured.

FWIW

Bo

Thanks Bo

real answers,real experience,I hold what you say in high regard because you see the evidence of mistakes.Your input is much needed! All any of us want to do is have fun in a canyon and bring everyone home safe.

[oldno7]

you say the 8mm line is adequate @ 2800+- breaking strength


so ... one thing that should be addressed first is this number you quote.

this number depends upon the rope used. so ... i don't know what is the tensile/breaking strength for the full spectrum of ropes, but here are some numbers for the following canyon ropes:

imlay canyon rope (8mm) ~ 3900 lbf
imlay canyon rope 9mm) ~ 4500 lbf
BlueWater II (8mm) ~ 4000 lbf
BlueWater Canyon Pro (8mm) ~ 5000 lbf
BlueWater Canyon Xtreme (8mm) ~ 5800 lbf

couldn't directly find value for the Beal Static Trail Line but it might be about 3080 lbf?

Thanks Stefan

I think I am wrong,I got the 2800 # but it may be wrong.(not sure yet)

at least I think we're gaining.

conclusion 1) rope strength(not diameter) is usually a moot point.

[Bo_Beck]

Thanks Bo

real answers,real experience,I hold what you say in high regard because you see the evidence of mistakes.Your input is much needed! All any of us want to do is have fun in a canyon and bring everyone home safe.[/quote]

I Thank You!

Originally when I started this 'thread', the strength of a rope wasn't my main focus, but rather the overall safety of one rope descents vs two rope descents. Sure strength of a rope becomes a concern, especially when you are hanging 300' off the deck on what seems to be dental floss (8mm cord), but we all know how that feels, however we all also know how it feels as we get closer to the ground and hands get warmer, devises get warmer and forearms get "pumped" from unnecessarily gripping too tight. Sure there are ways and techniques to create more friction and backups to be used in the event of miscalculation, but what is the harm (other than being called beginner/ intermediate) in using two ropes vs one rope? Jimminy....its just letting gravity do the work for us. One thing I have focused on while being involved with Zion is to simplify. If you want to look at "complex" systems and that is your motivation, then get involved with High Angle Rescue, but I just don't see the point in making the recreation of "Canyoneering" any more complex than it needs to be. If a person wishes to use blocks and single rope descents, then have at it, but I say don't push others into believing that this is the method that should be used in lieu of double ropes. I have used both systems and prefer double rope most of the time, but see the need occasionally for single. Call me a beginner.....I really couldn't give a hoot. I'm doing this for me and not to impress or be labeled someone I'm not.

[ratagonia]

if our biners,harness,descending device,rapides,webbing are all rated

over 5000lbs why do you want a rope with little more than 1/2 that strength?

because it is sufficient for the task (for some).

keep in mind that the strength of harnesses, 'biners, etc. is largely driven by rock climbing where higher forces are involved than those experienced in canyoneering.

So the 220lb (1kn) guy rapelling the last drop in Pine Creek, loses control and his friend at the bottom also 220 lbs (1kn) immediately employs the "conditional belay" with all his force and stops his friend from smacking the bottom, doesn't create forces similar to those that might be present in a lead fall? I for one hope that companies dealing with the construction of "Canyoneering" gear don't decide to skimp on gear designed specifically for "canyoneering". I call it "Safety Factor".....you call it beginner/ intermediate...we will all call it what we will! You use one rope...i'll use one rope unless I have two :five:

( 3900 lbs for the Imlay 8mm rope, when new).

Practice, practice, practice.

A canyoneer could use single rope technique JUST to become proficient at it, so that in circumstances where it is appropriate, they WILL have the proficiency to call on. That guy out of Heaps a few years back, broke his back? The 300' rap in Heaps was his FIRST on an 8mm single strand. Probably not the best place to be learning the dynamics of that particular rig.

A young man from St George, I believe, got hurt in Telephone, couple years back. Perhaps his first long, free rappel on single strand 7mm accessory cord?

Tom

[rcwild]

Bo has made some very good points here.

There are two parts to teaching

[stefan]

welcome to the site, rich, and thanks for your comments ... useful points, in particular the releasable system.


although i have to ask about your 'ego' comment and rope size. do you think this notion of 'expert' ego-fulfilling rope is all that prevalent? i'll say that in some of these canyons---especially the kind with lots of stemming and pools--- i prefer the smallest and lightest pack and the lightest ropes ... to cut down on the weight which is arduous to stem with, and the volume that you must squeeze through tight spaces and that you must maneuver as it bobs around dangling from your waist. i think it certainly makes a difference.

[hank moon]

The main points of this thread can be summarized as follows:

- Positive descriptions of SRT and/or small-diameter rope use should not be aired online due to community fears re: "beginners" being influenced by "experts" to use such techniques.

- Discussions of what is appropriate for "beginners" vs. "experts" almost invariably provoke a PC-type reaction against the word, "expert."

- There is no rational argument for always favoring DRT over SRT in canyoneering or vice-versa.

- An irrational fear of losing control on single rope is still prevalent in the community.

- SRT training/experience is lacking and greatly needed.

- Personal preference uber alles - comme toujours!

[rcwild]

although i have to ask about your 'ego' comment and rope size. do you think this notion of 'expert' ego-fulfilling rope is all that prevalent?

Only my opinion FWIW, but yes, I think it's very prevalent.

[stefan]

( 3900 lbs for the Imlay 8mm rope, when new).


out of curiosity, do you know this changes over time, say for imlay rope?



Practice, practice, practice.

A canyoneer could use single rope technique JUST to become proficient at it, so that in circumstances where it is appropriate, they WILL have the proficiency to call on.

i was thinking this too, that it's good to practice different techniques regularly to attain and maintain proficiency. makes good sense.

also, one thing i have noticed in pine creek: the past two times nat and i have done that last rappel, nat has offered the use of our rope to people who are just behind us. on both occasions (double strand), the group was more accustomed to 9mm rope. some folks found the 8mm rope fast while others in the same group did not, for various reasons, i suppose. it would seem good, in general, to get accustomed with different diameter ropes, just to keep a good understanding of the differences in how they function with equipment, so that, for example, when you're at a spot, like this 100 foot free rappel, you aren't surprised by how slow or fast your rappel feels.

[rcwild]

The main points of this thread can be summarized as follows:

- Positive descriptions of SRT and/or small-diameter rope use should not be aired online due to community fears re: "beginners" being influenced by "experts" to use such techniques.

- Discussions of what is appropriate for "beginners" vs. "experts" almost invariably provoke a PC-type reaction against the word, "expert."

- There is no rational argument for always favoring DRT over SRT in canyoneering or vice-versa.

- An irrational fear of losing control on single rope is still prevalent in the community.

- SRT training/experience is lacking and greatly needed.

- Personal preference uber alles - comme toujours!

Pros and cons to this internet thing, Hank. It's great for disseminating information, but often fails in communicating subtle details. What the canyoneering community really needs is more mentoring.

People can learn how to rig a biner block from reading a forum post. A mentor could help them understand when it's appropriate and when it's not. I can't write enough examples to cover every possible scenario

[hank moon]

I just reitertate....which system is easier to descend upon whether experienced or not?

A single rope system is generally easier to use for one accustomed to it. Prolly same goes for double. I prefer single...you, double. Mater...Mahter.

But..."single" doesn't always mean "single 8mm"

For example, I sometimes use a single 11mm for Pine Creek as there is generally no reason to carry 8 mm for roadside canyons.

8 mm is generally reserved for places where it is advantageous: remote "not a hike" slots, long days, etc. If I may say this w/o stepping on toes, Bo does not frequent such places. He is a maven of Zion, where the slots are wide and the approaches generally pretty short (i.e. less than 1/2 day). That is not to suggest that Bo never does "rap n' stem" stuff, but not as a rule. This partly explains his pro-DRT bias. Is that a fair statement, Bo?

[hank moon]

What the canyoneering community really needs is more mentoring.

amen


So now some people are suggesting that techniques should be "dumbed down". That's scary. Answer should always start with, "It depends ..."

Tres scary. The anti-block tsunami following Keith's death was amazing to me...but very human, too.

ACA mentoring program in the works?

[RedRoxx]

From a caver standpoint, defintely not canyoneering, SRT is what we do as we are usually coming back up that rope. Big static line ropes are usually what is used, 10.5-11mm is common. The Europeans and some other deep expedition cavers are using some 9mm now and possibly some 8mm to save weight on long trips.
All ropes seem different, from slow to fast. I was on one dirty rope and I had to force myself down the darn thing. Another time I did a quick hitch thru a biner on my belt to slow myself down on a brand new rope.

Some guys like to hot dog on raps and go down quickly. Ok on short and controlled raps. Bad if you heat the rope up with your device, and can't get your momentum under control.

We recently took a 600 foot rope to rap a 500 foot mine shaft to practice ascending and some changeovers on rope. I used several of my descending devices, my rack and Petzel stop. Used a couple of different ascending systems, had a bungee cord break on me about 150 feet up; I was able to patch things up and get on up there.
I've practiced this stuff dozens of times just a few feet off the ground at our local search and rescue house with ropes tied off on big ole cottonwood trees.

Practice, still doesn't make it perfect, but single or double, know as much as you can before you are off the deck.

[hank moon]

The Europeans and some other deep expedition cavers are using some 9mm now and possibly some 8mm to save weight on long trips.

5mm and 6mm are also in use for caving SRT. Not advocating, just reporting.

[rcwild]

ACA mentoring program in the works?

Yes. Bouncing ideas around. Free train-the-trainer workshops in exchange for commitment to volunteer to mentor others? Successfully challenge Level 1 and 2 skills checklist and receive rescue and leader training free with similar mentoring commitment?

Devil's in the details.

[Iceaxe]

What the canyoneering community really needs is more mentoring.

:2thumbs:

Adopt a Noobie.

:nod:

[stefan]

For example, I sometimes use a single 11mm for Pine Creek as there is generally no reason to carry 8 mm for roadside canyons.


i suppose, unless that's all in your quiver?

[hank moon]

Yes. Bouncing ideas around. Free train-the-trainer workshops in exchange for commitment to volunteer to mentor others? Successfully challenge Level 1 and 2 skills checklist and receive rescue and leader training free with similar mentoring commitment?

Sounds good!

Could also do mento-rondies:

Sketch: Groups consisting of 1 mentor + X students descend the same drainage on the same day. Each use of rope is fully explained by the mentor, from anchor to stopper knot (ahem). Each use is also fully documented with digicam. Presentation and discussion that night.

[stefan]

:2thumbs:

[hank moon]

i suppose, unless that's all in your quiver?

word

"Generally," Stefan, "generally" !!!

Don't you know your weasel words?

[rcwild]

Could also do mento-rondies:

Sketch: Groups consisting of 1 mentor + X students descend the same drainage on the same day. Each use of rope is fully explained by the mentor, from anchor to stopper knot (ahem). Each use is also fully documented with digicam. Presentation and discussion that night.

Considering several ideas to present to Charly and Sonny. Still need time for them to gel.

Canyon Leader exam is two days. Could break it down so day one tests Level 1 and 2. Give people who acquired skills without taking courses to qualify for mentor training. We need people who have some experience already and at least basic technical skills. They can come back in the future for second day of exam (canyon rescue and leadership) to get the merit badge.

Envisioning two-day mentor training sessions. I'll volunteer one weekend per month. Saturday at a cliff working on techniques. Sunday doing a canyon to focus on application of techniques, plus problem solving.

ACA planning more rendezvous. What you're calling mento-rondies I've been calling training rondies. Same kind of idea. Do canyons, have fun, but take time to play with what-if scenarios.

ACA needs to be in a train-the-trainer role now. Force multiplier. No way a handful of instructors can keep up with the hundreds of people getting into the sport.

[Bo_Beck]

The main points of this thread can be summarized as follows:

- Positive descriptions of SRT and/or small-diameter rope use should not be aired online due to community fears re: "beginners" being influenced by "experts" to use such techniques.

The situation as I see it: One takes several courses and "hikes" several canyons using several tools acquired in such several courses. Whether the tool being used was appropriate or not for given situation, who knows? Was the person hiking the canyon a beginner, intermediate or expert? Where are you drawing the line Hank? Seems to me that in the past few years a lot of attention in the media (most of the attention) has been focused toward so called "experts", and their dilemnas whether critical accidents or even death. Could the accidents have been avoided using different technique? What I see Hank, you have suggested below. Yes...I pretty much have isolated myself to Zion "Canyons", and these are the canyons I happen to be most familiar with. My Point: Yes, I believe that many folks are using the wrong technique very often in Zion..SRT.

Just got finished yesterday having a mini Canyon Rescue Course by Peak Rescue. You may even know Darren Jeffrey and the company he works alongside? He and I had fun talking about canyons. He has spent the last 10 years exploring Hawaiian canyons and using canyon techniques that you refer to as "expert" techniques. I see those techniques being used as required techniques and not "expert" techniques. The canyons in Hawaii being done by Darren often have 60-100cfs funnelled into channels such as Chop, Imlay etc. etc, but much more vertical in nature. Set rappels, deflections and redirects are absolute necessary. Are they necessary in the canyons that you suggest that I have not experienced Hank?

If you wish to use SRT because it is an "expert" technique, then I have no problem with that. I do however have a problem with misleading folks by stating that DRT is a beginner technique. Its like saying that a person who uses a hex nut instead of cam is a beginner.

Yes..SRT should be taught, but not pushed as an "expert" technique, but rather as another tool.
- Discussions of what is appropriate for "beginners" vs. "experts" almost invariably provoke a PC-type reaction against the word, "expert."

- There is no rational argument for always favoring DRT over SRT in canyoneering or vice-versa.

- An irrational fear of losing control on single rope is still prevalent in the community.

- SRT training/experience is lacking and greatly needed.

- Personal preference uber alles - comme toujours!

[rcwild]

There is another issue in the canyoneering community regarding people who lie about their experience and accomplishments to set themselves up as experts and leaders. Sometimes for ego. Sometimes for money. Are these the people beginners should be looking to as mentors?

But how can a beginner tell who the posers are?

[Bo_Beck]

[quote="ratagoniaPractice, practice, practice.

A canyoneer could use single rope technique JUST to become proficient at it, so that in circumstances where it is appropriate, they WILL have the proficiency to call on. That guy out of Heaps a few years back, broke his back? The 300' rap in Heaps was his FIRST on an 8mm single strand. Probably not the best place to be learning the dynamics of that particular rig.

A young man from St George, I believe, got hurt in Telephone, couple years back. Perhaps his first long, free rappel on single strand 7mm accessory cord?

No names going to be listed: Heaps a month or 2 back,and JW in Heaps 8 years back. Both preventable and both by "experienced" canyoneers. Many others as well by folks that have had experience. S#1+ happens even to the best of us. Mitigating risk I say. Experience....good thing.....methods employed to mitigate and ease effort and risk....the next best step I say.

[Iceaxe]

There is another issue in the canyoneering community regarding people who lie about their experience and accomplishments to set themselves up as experts and leaders. Sometimes for ego. Sometimes for money. Are these the people beginners should be looking to as mentors? But how can a beginner tell who the posers are?

Yup... that's a problem for sure..... but an even bigger problem is schools graduating instructors and/or guides who have very little practical experience. Just curious rcwild.... Would you classify that under the money or ego category?

Noob's teaching Noob's....

:popcorn:

[rcwild]

Yup... that's a problem for sure..... but an even bigger problem is schools graduating instructors and/or guides who have very little practical experience. Just curious rcwild.... Would you classify that under the money or ego category?

You'll have to be more specific with your question. I'm unaware of any school in the U.S. that is graduating instructors and/or guides with very little practical experience. ACA, for example, only has three "certified" instructors

[hank moon]

The situation as I see it: One takes several courses and "hikes" several canyons using several tools acquired in such several courses. Whether the tool being used was appropriate or not for given situation, who knows? Was the person hiking the canyon a beginner, intermediate or expert? Where are you drawing the line Hank?

I'm not getting the thrust of your questions. can you be more specific?


Seems to me that in the past few years a lot of attention in the media (most of the attention) has been focused toward so called "experts", and their dilemnas whether critical accidents or even death.

Not following ya...sorry! Some examples with references to media attention given to so-called experts would be very welcome.


Could the accidents have been avoided using different technique? What I see Hank, you have suggested below. Yes...I pretty much have isolated myself to Zion "Canyons", and these are the canyons I happen to be most familiar with. My Point: Yes, I believe that many folks are using the wrong technique very often in Zion..SRT.

Can you explain why SRT is the "wrong" technique to use? For me, it is only "wrong" if the user incompetent.


He has spent the last 10 years exploring Hawaiian canyons and using canyon techniques that you refer to as "expert" techniques.

it's important to be clear about "expert" technique. In this case, it is the use of SRT in canyons with 8mm or smaller rope, with ATC, Figure 8, or other non-specialized friction device. To do this with a high degree of safety requires more knowledge than that possessed by a beginner. Whether or not this should be called "expert" technique is moot. Perhaps it's a bit misleading to call it "expert" - how about "competent"?

Any person aspiring to competence should be proficient with SRT. Pre-competence practice w/o adequate supervision or "mentoring" is risky. The would-be "competent person" should always seek instruction and mentoring to avoid unnecessary injury or death.


I see those techniques being used as required techniques and not "expert" techniques.

Yes. see above re: competence. To descend many class 'C' canyons, one MUST be competent in SRT or face an even greater risk of death. Because one can "get away" with DRT so often here on the CP, competence in SRT is often not required and so undervalued.

However, the benefits of knowing SRT are immeasurable. I think that's (more or less) what TJ Hooker was getting at earlier.


Are they necessary in the canyons that you suggest that I have not experienced Hank?


That is not to suggest that Bo never does "rap n' stem" stuff, but not as a rule.


If you wish to use SRT because it is an "expert" technique, then I have no problem with that.

Why would anyone want to use a technique because of its perceived glamour? Nonsense, sez i. I would hope most folks have better sense than that!


I do however have a problem with misleading folks by stating that DRT is a beginner technique. Its like saying that a person who uses a hex nut instead of cam is a beginner.

No-one has stated that DRT is a "beginner technique" What I have tried to say (perhaps unclearly) is that folks who are not competent with SRT should use DRT as a rule until such time as they feel competent using SRT. That said, there are folks out there who will experiment with unfamiliar techniques in an inappropriate setting (like, in a slot canyon). That's human nature and can't be helped directly. Rich's mentoring program will (hopefully) be a mitigating influence on this self-destructive tendency - looking forward to seeing that program put into practice.


Yes..SRT should be taught, but not pushed as an "expert" technique, but rather as another tool.

Agreed with addition: not only taught, but practiced.

[hank moon]

But how can a beginner tell who the posers are?

ha. good question. I suggest a poser blacklist be posted to the ACA site immediately! :mrgreen:

[rcwild]

But how can a beginner tell who the posers are?

ha. good question. I suggest a poser blacklist be posted to the ACA site immediately! :mrgreen:

I learned from a private email this morning that at least one experienced canyoneer whom I hold in very high regard can't tell who the posers are. Guess it's best to just keep quiet and let people figure it out for themselves.

[hank moon]

<pdba>

[hank moon]

I learned from a private email this morning that at least one experienced canyoneer whom I hold in very high regard can't tell who the posers are. Guess it's best to just keep quiet and let people figure it out for themselves.

any noobs out there want the definitive poser list, just drop me a PM.

And I'm #5 on the list, right behind "-_-_-_"

[rockgremlin]

And I'm #5 on the list, right behind "-_-_-_"


"Maurice-Jones-Drew?" I didn't know he was into canyoneering!

[hank moon]

No names going to be listed: Heaps a month or 2 back,and JW in Heaps 8 years back. Both preventable and both by "experienced" canyoneers. Many others as well by folks that have had experience.

99.9+% of all canyoneering accidents are preventable -all but the tiniest minority have subjective causes. In the 2002 Heaps accident, there was much discussion on the Canyons Group concerning the effectiveness of conditional belays, self-belays, etc. The PC probword,

[Iceaxe]

any noobs out there want the definitive poser list, just drop me a PM.

Feel free to put me #1 one the Poser List :2thumbs:

I'm just an old codger who likes hiking with ropes.... most of my tech skills suck. Anything you have heard about me other then that is a damn lie.

:popcorn:

[hank moon]

any noobs out there want the definitive poser list, just drop me a PM.

Feel free to put me #1 one the Poser List :2thumbs:

I'm just an old codger who likes hiking with ropes.... most of my tech skills suck. Anything you have heard about me other then that is a damn lie.

:popcorn:

You got it!

Here's the list so far:

#1 Shane
#2 Steve
#3 Joe
#4 <censored>
#5 Hank

don't ask. :mrgreen:

[Iceaxe]

don't ask. :mrgreen:

I can't wait to see 6 thru 10 :lol8:

:popcorn:

[price1869]

any noobs out there want the definitive poser list, just drop me a PM.

Feel free to put me #1 one the Poser List :2thumbs:

I'm just an old codger who likes hiking with ropes.... most of my tech skills suck. Anything you have heard about me other then that is a damn lie.

:popcorn:

Shane, you don't like hiking with ropes. You like hiking in narrow places. Every once in a while you like hiking with noobs that are carrying ropes. :haha: When was the last time you did behunin or englestead?

BTW, we did Englestead. It was fun. :bootyshake:

[Sombeech]

Is this poser list limited to canyoneers only?

[hank moon]

Is this poser list limited to canyoneers only?

Nope.

#1 Shane
#2 Steve
#3 Joe
#4 <censored>
#5 Hank
#6 Sombeech

[Iceaxe]

I'm just an old codger who likes hiking with ropes....

Actually.... to be completely truthful..... I like hiking, and having someone else carry the ropes.

:nod:

[hank moon]

Actually.... to be completely truthful..... I like hiking, and having someone else carry the ropes.

well...whoever said "with ropes" means "carrying ropes" ?

:haha:

[rcwild]

ACA Canyon Leader Training Program

http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1746

[Brian in SLC]

The recent Heaps accident had a multitude of contributing factors, the least of which was choice of technique.

I think one of the problems with the biner block/pull cord/SRT rappel is that, since it is less KISS, its more prone to be a contributor in accidents.

Had those guys in the mentioned Heaps accident rigged 600 feet of rope (or two 300 footers) and rappelled double strand... Bo, you rap this thing double strand? Wow, that's a bunch of rope! What could be more safe than that? And, if safety is a primary concern, then, shouldn't the safest method be primary?

Its the friggin' in the riggin'. Too much riggin', to much chance for gettin' frigged...

I guess I'd say I've tryed the SRT thing a fair bit. I think I understand it fairly well. Maybe I need to go with folks who have the technique dialed to really see its purported advantages (faster, easier to rig and inspect, significantly faster when leapfrogging with rope bags). But, for me, if I was doing something like Pine Creek, with a single 60m rope, my bet is that I'd be a fair bit faster with that rope in play (rope bag or not) that I would with a pull cord, biner block and SRT cord for those rappels. If anyone wants to race, I'd be up for it. Start clock at first rappel station, prior to rope deployment. Stop clock at last rappel, when the last bit of rope hits the ground.

I use a pull cord a fair bit. Always from a rope bag (light weight + wind = potential for cluster). Last week, did a series of 4 long double rope length rappels, one free hanging, with a pull cord and climbing rope combo. Couldn't help but think how much faster it would have been to have two single climbing ropes in play. And, I wasn't even rigging a clove hitch/biner block either (yet another opportunity for something to go wrong).

[Iceaxe]

I have to agree with everything Brian posted..... I've used the Single Rope Technique a fair amount but I always use the Double Rope Technique when given a choice or opportunity..... I really don't care if I look like a beginner... better a live beginner then a dead expert.

:2thumbs:

[CarpeyBiggs]

You're on Brian, I'll race ya. I've done 18 minutes to the final rap before, 6 additional to finish it and pull the cords and stuff the last rap, SRT and rope bags the whole way. Can we bypass the second rap and do the grim crawl? :roflol: :roflol:

Ok, that's a lie. Never timed myself... But seriously (feel free to blast me if I am making incorrect assumptions), is it possible that you don't want to understand the SRT system? You are obviously very experienced, much more than I am, for sure, as far as rope systems and practical experience go. But from what I have experienced with both systems, I don't think it is inherently dangerous. More complex? Yes. Safer when understood completely? Definitely. More potential for error that leads to injury? That's debatable.

I wonder if you've actually spent the time with the system to learn it intimately? Maybe you have, I really don't know. That's why I ask, but it doesn't seem like you really get into the canyons that often. You are definitely an outspoken critic, and I wonder why your feelings are so strong, even when you don't really consider yourself a "canyoneer." Seems you are a climber and mountaineer first and foremost, and those skills lend themselves to your ability to conquer some big canyons. Perhaps your techniques from those experiences are the ones you prefer, and haven't taken a look at the ACA styles? Again, I am assuming, so correct me if I'm wrong.

[Brian in SLC]

You're on Brian, I'll race ya. I've done 18 minutes to the final rap before, 6 additional to finish it and pull the cords and stuff the last rap, SRT and rope bags the whole way. Can we bypass the second rap and do the grim crawl?

Seen the footprints from the 18 minutes guys...(not too far behind them).

Funny, I took a climbing bud through Pine Creek (relatively famous FA'er in Zion), and he downclimbed the first drop. Yikes, dude, we rappel that! Oh, he says...

They key would be to get two people, one super proficient at one technique, likewise the other, time them, then have them trade techniques and use the other, then average the times.

Any technique in the hands of a highly skilled person will look awesome. But, for lowest common denominator, its the lowest skilled person that it would be more interesting to apply this to.


is it possible that you don't want to understand the SRT system?

But, I think I do. I've used it. Still do, in fact. Not as much with a biner block (I prefer a knot block). Have used it a ton this summer, in fact. And, a pull cord combo last week.


More complex? Yes.

My point is "more complex" equals more opportunity for screwing it up, hence, less safe. KISS.


More potential for error that leads to injury? That's debatable.

I think the recent accidents bear that fruit. Indirectly and/or directly. Jim flatly would not have been hurt had he double rope rappelled that last drop in Pine Creek. The close call Randi had a few weeks back, on a clove hitch that wasn't, using a biner block in Imlay that came undone...yikes. And so on.


I wonder if you've actually spent the time with the system to learn it intimately?

I think I have enough time in that saddle. One thing I'm not particularly saavy at, is stuffing a rope bag quickly. Kind of an artist thing, perhaps.


You are definitely an outspoken critic, and I wonder why your feelings are so strong, even when you don't really consider yourself a "canyoneer."

Because I have a ton of really good friends I don't want to see hurt and/or killed. I can't really seeing being less passionate about it due to that reason alone. The other reason, probably, is that I do like technical problem solving and learning.


Perhaps your techniques from those experiences are the ones you prefer, and haven't taken a look at the ACA styles?

Was at the first ACA rendezvous in Globe AZ, a few years back. I'll admit, my pea brain thought some of those techniques were scary as heck. And, it seemed to me, more useful in a guide/client relationship, where as I'm a recreationist, and neither guide nor client. Ie, the genesis of the term "stunt canyon". When I got one of the guides from that trip alone, and asked, what if it were just me and you, what would we do at this drop? They replied, we double the rope and rappel. I asked to try. No problemo. Rich, that was Clint, btw.

I like rope tricks. They can be fun. Entertaining. But, usually, they add risk. Risk mitigation is key for boom boom long time.

Anyhoo...lets race!

-Brian in SLC

[CarpeyBiggs]

My point is "more complex" equals more opportunity for screwing it up, hence, less safe. KISS.

True. No one will debate that in SOME situations. But I did just get back from a week up in the PNW doing all class C canyons. I don't think I'd want to huck-n-rap too many of those drops. Hell, I was scared just to even rap one of the falls, regardless of technique. It's those types of situations where the ACA techniques really shine. But yeah, I also like the less weight, faster, and easy to stuff rope bags too, which is why I like that style most of the time.

I also like SRT, because when you send Shane down first on it, he gets really worked up and emotional. That's almost more fun than the actual rappel. Right Shane?

Thanks for the reply by the way. Who was you DC'ing buddy? I still shake my head at the fact one of them locals (sure you can guess which) did a ropeless down that thing, jumped the cathedral, bypassed the last rap on the left.

So, when's the race?

[Brian in SLC]

But I did just get back from a week up in the PNW doing all class C canyons. I don't think I'd want to huck-n-rap too many of those drops. Hell, I was scared just to even rap one of the falls, regardless of technique. It's those types of situations where the ACA techniques really shine.

My bet is you used some type of contingency anchor, and, not a biner block/thin pull cord/SRT type technique, eh?

Running water can change the game, to be sure. You know, you can always rig those waterfall drops off to the side and avoid them, too...ha ha. Stunt canyons!

I have mucho respect for that moving water game. Something I'd like to do more of. Makes those international Euro rendezvous appealing. Shouting off rope in four languages is kinda funny...


I also like SRT, because when you send Shane down first on it, he gets really worked up and emotional. That's almost more fun than the actual rappel. Right Shane?

That's reason enough to use it...


So, when's the race?

Maybe this fall, sometime after labor day. Find a "quiet" weekend, or, week day. Seems like I always do these things after a big day though...(the Pine Creek record was set after the combo platter of the Eye and Chute gig?).

Fun stuff.

-Brian in SLC

[rcwild]

[quote=Brian in SLC]

[CarpeyBiggs]

My bet is you used some type of contingency anchor, and, not a biner block/thin pull cord/SRT type technique, eh?

Yeah, contingency anchors, but still single rope, no thin pull cords. Biner blocks too, to set lengths to eliminate floating disconnects and keep ropes out of nasty hydraulics. It was eye-opening for sure, my first time in that kind of flow.


Running water can change the game, to be sure. You know, you can always rig those waterfall drops off to the side and avoid them, too...ha ha. Stunt canyons!

Some can, come can't. Some drops were bolted, some weren't, so it just depended on the situation. We actually did climb a slab and set up an anchor out of the watercourse on that one. I swore it was like 30 cfs right into a chute... Apparently it was only 10 or 11 though. Still, a head rattler I wasn't exactly tickled about getting into.


Seems like I always do these things after a big day though...

Don't worry man, you don't gotta sandbag with me. You shouldn't have much problem running me into the ground... I'm just a n00b afterall.

[Iceaxe]

I also like SRT, because when you send Shane down first on it, he gets really worked up and emotional. That's almost more fun than the actual rappel. Right Shane?

Honestly.... the more rappels I do the more squirrelly I get...... its just the law of averages, so many things can go wrong with a rappel and kill you. I mean its like driving a car... you might be the greatest driver in the world but if you drive enough miles you will eventually get in an accident.

:cool2:

[rcwild]

Given that, I think the SRT/pull cord/biner block technique is inherently dangerous and shouldn't be a primary method for rappelling.

You gotta qualify this statement. Start or end with something like "for the majority of Class A and B canyons where people won't be rappelling in or into water". Since this is a Utah-centric site, no problem. Anyone reading your statement from beyond the CP who is doing Class C canyons needs to ignore you. In those environments, DRT is the more dangerous option.

You've lumped 3 separate things together as one. Biner blocks aren't dangerous

[CarpeyBiggs]

Honestly.... the more rappels I do the more squirrelly I get...... its just the law of averages, so many things can go wrong with a rappel and kill you. I mean its like driving a car... you might be the greatest driver in the world but if you drive enough miles you will eventually get in an accident.

See, I don't have those issues. I'm not afraid of death. That's why I use a biner block. :roflol: :roflol:

[Iceaxe]

If I died my hot young stripper wife wouldn't let me go canyoneering any more.

:lol8:

[Brian in SLC]

You gotta qualify this statement. Start or end with something like "for the majority of Class A and B canyons where people won't be rappelling in or into water".

This thread is about Pine Creek, as originally posted by Bo. Context, but, your right. For Pine Creek in standard conditions (ie, non flow).


Since this is a Utah-centric site, no problem. Anyone reading your statement from beyond the CP who is doing Class C canyons needs to ignore you. In those environments, DRT is the more dangerous option.

Concur. Read the first post in this thread.

Lets try this as a qualifier then. In cases where either technique can be safely applied, DRT is the safer choice?

I'd rather rappel in a waterfall on a double line, in most situations, than with a rope bag and thin pull cord swirling around next to me...excepting getting stuck in a hydraulic, of course.

[quote]You've lumped 3 separate things together as one. Biner blocks aren't dangerous

[rcwild]

This thread is about Pine Creek, as originally posted by Bo. Context, but, your right. For Pine Creek in standard conditions (ie, non flow).

Actually, I think Bo used Pine Creek as an example, but thread is intended as a general discussion. BWTFDIK


Lets try this as a qualifier then. In cases where either technique can be safely applied, DRT is the safer choice?

I understand what you're getting at, but can't give you that simple answer. I'll give you "In cases where loss of control on rappel is the greater concern and/or in cases where no one in the party is proficient rigging a block and/or in cases where fatigie/darkness lead to concerns about the party's ability to rig correctly."


I'd rather rappel in a waterfall on a double line, in most situations, than with a rope bag and thin pull cord swirling around next to me...excepting getting stuck in a hydraulic, of course.

There's that pull cord thing again. ?? Try getting stuck in a hydraulic with DRT. How will you get that rope unwrapped from around your legs? Carry a sharp rescue knife on your harness where you can get at it to cut yourself free from that rope. Boy Scouts in Kolob!

[quote]You've lumped 3 separate things together as one. Biner blocks aren't dangerous

[rcwild]

When I taught rappelling courses (not canyoneering related), I always used 7/16 KMIII. When I guided canyons, I always used 10.3mm. It took me a while to trust anything in the 9mm range for guiding.

When I started the Canyons Group and heard from canyoneers who were using ropes and accessory cord even skinnier, I thought they were nuts.

Brian, I clearly recall a thread where you spoke of using 7.6mm Ice Floss for canyoneering. I was shocked when so many people started using Canyon Pro as their primary rope, but was comforted by the belief that so many canyoneers seemed to be experienced using skinny ropes.

Then we started hearing more and more stories about people losing control on single skinny ropes. The situation may have stemmed from unfortunate timing

[Scott Card]

Rich, we've not met but thanks for jumping on this site and into this thread. I have enjoyed the discussion and I participate on this and the canyons group to learn as well as read TR's. I have nothing in particular to add to this thread but I am grateful to have your insight and experience.

[Jaxx]

was shocked when so many people started using Canyon Pro as their primary rope

Why? I just bought a Blue water canyon pro 9.2mm rope. Has something changed or are you still against the canyon pro rope? Or is it just the diameter you worry about?
I am fairly new to canyoneering but I haven't heard bad about the canyon pro. I actually got it because it was supposed to be a little tougher and I prefer the larger diameter, plus the orange makes me look sexier on rappels. I am not writing this to challenge you I am being sincere in my question.

[rcwild]

was shocked when so many people started using Canyon Pro as their primary rope

Why? I just bought a Blue water canyon pro 9.2mm rope. Has something changed or are you still against the canyon pro rope? Or is it just the diameter you worry about?
I am fairly new to canyoneering but I haven't heard bad about the canyon pro. I actually got it because it was supposed to be a little tougher and I prefer the larger diameter, plus the orange makes me look sexier on rappels. I am not writing this to challenge you I am being sincere in my question.

If your rope is 9.2mm, it's not Canyon Pro. It's Canyon. Canyon Pro is 8mm. Another way to tell the difference

[rcwild]

Rich, we've not met but thanks for jumping on this site and into this thread. I have enjoyed the discussion and I participate on this and the canyons group to learn as well as read TR's. I have nothing in particular to add to this thread but I am grateful to have your insight and experience.

No problem. It's my job. It's what I do.

So, why haven't we met? Are you traveling in the wrong circles? :rockon:

(I know that little guitar guy has nothing to do with anything. Just looks cool.)

[stefan]

:rockon:

(I know that little guitar guy has nothing to do with anything. Just looks cool.)


:lol8: :lol8:

[Scott Card]

Rich, we've not met but thanks for jumping on this site and into this thread. I have enjoyed the discussion and I participate on this and the canyons group to learn as well as read TR's. I have nothing in particular to add to this thread but I am grateful to have your insight and experience.

No problem. It's my job. It's what I do.

So, why haven't we met? Are you traveling in the wrong circles? :rockon:

(I know that little guitar guy has nothing to do with anything. Just looks cool.)

Hopefully I'm not traveling in the wrong circles just need to expand the circles I'm in. Also, I seem to be chained to the desk too much lately. My brother speaks highly of you and your training. Now if I could convince my wife that I'd rather have an ACA course than a jacket and tie for my birthday, my circle would be instantly expanded. :rockon:

[price1869]

Brian, you've read "Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales? If not, I highly recommend it.

That goes for all of you.

[Bo_Beck]

[quote=Brian in SLC]This thread is about Pine Creek, as originally posted by Bo. Context, but, your right. For Pine Creek in standard conditions (ie, non flow).

Actually, I think Bo used Pine Creek as an example, but thread is intended as a general discussion. BWTFDIK


Actually my comment or observation was made about any rappel done (excluding moving water) in which a person has twice as much rope as the longest rappel and uses SRT.

Understand...I have used and will still use SRT in certain applications, but if I have enough rope to be doing a double rope rappel and conditions are not adverse for such use...I will be on double rope.

I didn't start this thread to try convince anyone that they should do what I choose to do. My observation is just one of seeing folks using SRT, when they could have just as easily used DRT and maybe felt good about using it, rather than feeling eyes on them that may suggest they are beginning/ intermediate "hikers with a rope".

:rockon: Nothing to do with the post either.