Six miners trapped after Utah quake

[asdf]

[quote]HUNTINGTON, Utah - A coal mine collapsed Monday in central Utah, trapping six miners, less than 20 miles from the epicenter of a 4.0 magnitude earthquake, authorities said.

The Genwal mine reported a

[JP]

Wow, my prayers are with them!!! :eek2:

[KillEmAll]

Sounds like they still aren't sure if the earthquake caused the cave-in, or if the cave-in caused the earthquake. If the cave-in caused the earthquake, can you imagine the size it must be?

[accadacca]

This old bastard giving the reports from the mine is a complete nut job. They need to put him in a straight jacket and get him the hell outta there. :crazycobasa:

[greyhair biker]

Our mine (Solvay) - when we had the 'collapse' or the massive instantaneous release of methane, triggered high on the ricter scale as well...over 5....that was an experience I dont ever want to relive! :eek2: I watched it blow stopping material out of the top of the headframe over the shaft like a geyser...scary! Luckily, I was on surface at the exact time it happened...it threw me too the ground and sounded like a bomb had gone off...got that sick feeling at the pit of my stomach that my friends had just died....
I really hope they make it out alive.

[James_B_Wads2000]

This old bastard giving the reports from the mine is a complete nut job. They need to put him in a straight jacket and get him the hell outta there. :crazycobasa:

Ah, you mean this guy?:

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site297/2007/0808/20070808__ut_minebob_plug_0808~1_Gallery.jpg

Salt Lake Tribune Article Link (http://www.sltrib.com/ci_6570325)

Murray's meltdown? Angry briefing draws rebuke from House labor committee chairman, others

Robert Murray scoured the skies for the helicopters above Crandall Canyon, refusing to continue his disjointed, rambling Tuesday morning media briefing until the county sheriff chased them off.
It was a public relations meltdown that prompted the chairman of the U.S. House labor committee to demand that federal officials take the helm of all future briefings on the cave-in that trapped six men in the Crandall Canyon coal mine.
But in many ways it appears to have been Murray being Murray - an eccentric, passionate, politically connected coal executive who has never shied from speaking his mind.
In his briefing, an update of the Crandall Canyon mine collapse that was carried live on national television, Murray defended the coal industry, attacked the media and railed against what he called a foolhardy crusade against global warming that jeopardized his industry and America's economy.
Murray insisted there was no way the collapse was not caused by an earthquake - "It was a natural disaster and I'll prove it to you" - even though a federal geologist said Tuesday evening the collapse was absolutely not caused by an earthquake

[Sombeech]

Sounds like it will be another week until they can reach the miners.

[gonzo]

This Murray guy sure sounds like a piece of work. It will be interesting to see if they really were doing retreat mining when the collapse occurred.

[gonzo]

KSL (and just about everywhere else) is reporting that 3 rescue miners were killed last night after a "mountain bump" caused support pillars to blow out. All underground rescue operations have ceased, but they're continuing to drill (yet another) shaft from the top into the chamber where a mic may have heard noises earlier this week.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1652323

[shlingdawg]

This is just a bad deal all the way around. Sad sad sad.

[Scott Card]

I have been following this pretty closely. This is just one disaster heaped on another now. Those poor families who have the six trapped. Their hopes have got to be shattered by this recent collapse. And some sort of monument ought to be erected to the three who lost their lives in very dangerous conditions trying to get to their fellow miners. Dangerous business. Miners are a different, tough breed of men. My hats off to those guys.

[rockgremlin]

I have been following this pretty closely. This is just one disaster heaped on another now. Those poor families who have the six trapped. Their hopes have got to be shattered by this recent collapse. And some sort of monument ought to be erected to the three who lost their lives in very dangerous conditions trying to get to their fellow miners. Dangerous business. Miners are a different, tough breed of men. My hats off to those guys.


That means you greyhair!

Ya, this is an awful tragedy. I think our Hollywood Gov could get a little more edumacated before speaking out about these turn of events though. He's embarrassing himself and the mining industry.

[stefan]

This old bastard giving the reports from the mine is a complete nut job. They need to put him in a straight jacket and get him the hell outta there. :crazycobasa:

Ah, you mean this guy?:


yeah that guy ... i read these the other day when they came up on a news search.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/why-are-the-new-york-t_b_60412.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/14/utah-mine-owner-troublin_n_60477.html

[greyhair biker]

I have been following this pretty closely. This is just one disaster heaped on another now. Those poor families who have the six trapped. Their hopes have got to be shattered by this recent collapse. And some sort of monument ought to be erected to the three who lost their lives in very dangerous conditions trying to get to their fellow miners. Dangerous business. Miners are a different, tough breed of men. My hats off to those guys.


That means you greyhair!

Ya, this is an awful tragedy. I think our Hollywood Gov could get a little more edumacated before speaking out about these turn of events though. He's embarrassing himself and the mining industry.
My heart goes out to those guys...and it looks like the rescuers as well now that more haev died trying to save the others. I know how they feel though....we are a tight knit group underground, we may not like some of each others but you learn to rely on your coworkers to save your life everyday in sticky spots and you feel the same way. Family - Watch the industry tighten up a bit now...even though you can only eliminate just so much of the danger.
Oh, and - this is my take - mining consists of 'development' and 'retreat' mining...you cant do one without the other...yes, the media doesnt have a friggin clue, as this bozo running that mine isnt blessed with a generous amount of 'people skills'...

[Sombeech]

All of the schools got the word today to go half mast on the flag. I guess 4 rescuers died in the latest collapse. Very sad. Very frustrating, and very sad.

[JP]

Yea, more died going in on a rescue, my thoughts and prayers are with them and their loved ones.

[stefan]

My heart goes out to those guys...and it looks like the rescuers as well now that more haev died trying to save the others.

it's tough ... honorable.



I know how they feel though....we are a tight knit group underground, we may not like some of each others but you learn to rely on your coworkers to save your life everyday in sticky spots and you feel the same way. Family -

i imagined this would be the case.



Watch the industry tighten up a bit now...even though you can only eliminate just so much of the danger.

okay, but isn't tightening up for the better of the miners and their families? i would believe there is some point of diminishing returns, but it would appear that the mining industry as a whole isn't to that point. i am obviously no expert, but aren't mining accidents and safety violations happening a little too high of a rate for this day in age?



Oh, and - this is my take - mining consists of 'development' and 'retreat' mining...you cant do one without the other...yes, the media doesnt have a friggin clue, as this bozo running that mine isnt blessed with a generous amount of 'people skills'...

okay, but of course it would be nice to have them address this issue so that the public can gain a better understanding.

let me ask you this, Wade. from the second article i posted (and from the original tribune article):

Robert Gehrke at the Salt Lake Tribune reported over the weekend that Murray's Galatia mine in southern Illinois has racked up 2,787 violations over the past two years. MSHA has proposed more than $2.4 million in fines at Galatia, according to Gehrke's reporting.

Wade, in your opinion does this constitute a minor or significant neglect of safety?

the sl tribune reports:

Nowhere is Murray's companies' safety record more dismal than Galatia, the southern Illinois mine Murray bought in 1998, which has piled up 2,787 violations since June 2005. Of those, 660 violations were considered significant and substantial, meaning the hazard could "result in an injury or illness of a reasonably serious nature." MSHA issued 94 orders requiring safety issues to be fixed immediately.

is this off-base? this is the mining safety and health administration we're talking about here, (which one might imagine would be more easy-going under the current administration)?

[JP]

in your opinion does this constitute a minor or significant neglect of safety?

the sl tribune reports:

Nowhere is Murray's companies' safety record more dismal than Galatia, the southern Illinois mine Murray bought in 1998, which has piled up 2,787 violations since June 2005. Of those, 660 violations were considered significant and substantial, meaning the hazard could "result in an injury or illness of a reasonably serious nature." MSHA issued 94 orders requiring safety issues to be fixed immediately.
I don't know, how minor could have the majority of them been? This would mean that 2127 of those violations were not at all significant. What's minor? The 660 might be what made the cost so high or was it the 94 that made the fines what they were. The more serious the violation, the more the fine. Where is this the governments responsibility? They did their job, they fined the mines when they found violations. The mine has no responsibility to protect its own investment? So, do we allow the government in, to make these types of decisions? You don't want the government getting into your life anymore than they are, so it's OK for them to be involved with others?

Let's bring this down to a level that we can understand. Those racked up amounts in fines is not easily digested by all. Say that all bad police officer pulls you over, because he has nothing better to do than to piss you off by letting you know you have a tail light out. Well, the prick gives you a fine for that violation. Should he have the right (he is a representative of the government) to seize your car for that violation? OK, you get pulled over a dozen times for that tail light out, fines all the way around. Would they then have the right to seize your car? Now, because of your tail light out (who knows, you may have replaced the light tens times by now) you are involved in a fatal car crash and it's determined that your tail light was partially to blame for this fatal car crash. Is that the po-po's fault that they allowed you to drive your car with that tail light out? I mean, should they have seized your car, if they did this fatal car crash would never have happened? Where do you draw the line?

It's easy to sit back and play Monday Morning Quarterback and point fingers at everyone who we see at fault. Mines are not up there on the safest places to work in. Accidents will happen, it's the nature of the job. We can only hope that the employer will do what they can to keep the workplace as safe a place as possible. We also hope that the people in charge of keeping the employer on the ball by doing their job by inspecting said mines and keeping the employer on their toes. Hopefully policed together these places become a safer place to work, even though the environment their in is not safe at all. Accidents do and will happen, that's the nature of the game.

[greyhair biker]

I dont know about the violations, although I am sure if you wanted to get an education you could go to http://www.msha.gov/
where you would get MUCH more info than you could digest.
For the record, I think MSHA is on the ball as a federal organization. The violations in that particular mine are probably justified...2000+ is a HUGE amount, which will probably put someone in prison, but if you want to get a fair comparison go to the msha website and compare coal to metal/nonmetal to surface operations, etc. We are classified in the trona industry as a category 111 metal/nonmetal mine...not the same as a coal mine - not near as dangerous but we are considered a gassy mine so we monitor everything every day. There are regulations in place required to even operate the mine...everything is documented with msha...ventilation, roof bolting plans, cutting cycles...everything.
Do yourself a favor and check out the website

[rockgremlin]

From what I have seen in the industry, safety is paramount. Safety is talked about every day of the week, and is NOT taken lightly. Weekly safety meetings are held in every single department here at the mine where I work. I don't know how things are run at the Crandall Canyon Mine, but I would assume things aren't too different. That said, I will remark that 2000+ safety violations is wildly excessive. I question how many of those were repeat violations, and how many would be generally considered "severe." In my opinion, there are no "minor" safety violations. When it comes to safety, it's all top priority.

[greyhair biker]

From what I have seen in the industry, safety is paramount. Safety is talked about every day of the week, and is NOT taken lightly. Weekly safety meetings are held in every single department here at the mine where I work. I don't know how things are run at the Crandall Canyon Mine, but I would assume things aren't too different. That said, I will remark that 2000+ safety violations is wildly excessive. I question how many of those were repeat violations, and how many would be generally considered "severe." In my opinion, there are no "minor" safety violations. When it comes to safety, it's all top priority.
I couldnt agree with you more! We have a safety meeting every day before we even go underground, we have weekly safety meetings too...granted, they can get a bit boring and monotonous but absolutely necessary. We have new people underground all the time, we have to retrain our guys seasoned or not all the time. We are retrained minewide every spring at an annual refresher course held at our local college campus and I must stay that our mine rescue teams are among the best in the nation consistently every year at national competitions...very proud of that one. I'm starting to sound like our safety department but it's true at least in our mine that safety is first...before anything else...
..SO, whatelse would you like to know? :nod:

[stefan]

thanks, guys, for your thoughts.

first, wade, i just want to make sure i understood you correctly. when you said "the violations in that particular mine are probably justified," i took "justified" to mean that MSHA is correct in their evaluations and the violations they've cited are bona fide (as opposed to its being acceptable for that particular mine to have such violations, which i think goes against what you're saying.)

my feeling (and expectation) was that safety is a huge priority for the miners, the mine owners and the government that inspects it. if MSHA is on par as a gov organization (which makes me smile to hear) then as the naive lay person, i have to say that this many violations is unacceptable. money/business should not be prioritized over the safety of the workers, and Murray either needs to get his shit together or stop.

rockG says there are no minor safety violations. wade says 2000+ could land someone in prison. and this was only one mine of Murray's.

and in another case:

"Another Murray-owned company - Ken American Resources - and four of its top employees were convicted in a federal court in Kentucky of conspiring to violate federal mine safety rules.

A judge later threw out part of the verdict, but the company was ordered to pay $306,000 in fines, an amount federal prosecutors considered too lenient."


i guess the problem i am having with reading this stuff is that red flags are going up all over the place (i can see a red crayon being used too). however, this guy Murray is still doing his thing. and i KNOW there are miners who need work and are willing to work for this guy, despite what they know of him and his mining companies. and i guess, in my far-removed mind, this situation simply isn't right. if Murray is what it sounds like, then he and his companies need to be dealt with more seriously.


wade, i'll try to take some time to check out MSHA's site. thanks for the recommendation.

[rockgremlin]

Pretty sure Murray will have criminal charges brought against him over this latest incident. Quote me on that one. Let me put it this way - if the mine I work for received 2000+ MSHA violations, we would've been shut down a long, long time ago. It blows my mind that after so many violations they're still allowed to operate.

[greyhair biker]

Not being able to research each violation they received I couldnt really tell you specifics...that would be between MSHA and the mine in question but just for a VERY small example if MHSA on their quarterly inspections were to find say 10 fire extinguishers that had tags that were not punched for the month of july, they would be able to right a citation for each one they found. They could be talked down IF they were immediately inspected and properly tagged. However, if MSHA came around later, be it that week or during the next inspection and found that the problem had not be abated, the inspector could and probably would cite an S&S violation on each fire extiguisher he found and the fine would be higher...$15,000 per occurence.
If you read the federal regs - found on the website - you would find that EACH regulation that is not found in compliance is a citeable offence and will now be able to be cited PER INDIVIDUAL and not just to the mine or it's managers/supervisors/foremen
Just another side note: Each time a mine disaster like this occurs, MSHA becomes in complete control of the mine. It's called a 'K-order' and they become the boss until the k-order is lifted. They are GOD as fas as the mine is concerned.
I have only been in the industry for 13 years...running crews as a boss for 8 of those. I am personally liable for the safety and health of my crew and all those under my jurisdiction. I will fight to keep those guys alive...so I hope you dont interpret any of what I have said as hostile - it's just that my cockles go up when someone like this Murray turd doesnt get strung up right way.... he WILL get whats coming to him you can count on it!

[rockgremlin]

Hate to whip the dead horse but I am taking issue with some aspects of this. From KSL.com:

"...Huntsman criticized Crandall Canyon mine co-owner Bob Murray, saying Murray didn't do enough to recover the bodies of the six trapped miners and hasn't been sensitive to their families."

The "hasn't been sensitive to their families" part I can understand -- he has come across as callous, but all this crap about him not doing enough to recover the bodies I completely disagree with. Three have already been killed trying to recover the bodies -- anyone else wanna step up and willingly walk into a deathtrap to recover the bodies?


Didn't think so.


The bodies aren't being recovered because they don't want to risk killing anyone else in the process.