So. Utah under flash flood watch

[Iceaxe]

So. Utah under flash flood watch

ST. GEORGE

[stefan]

by the way ... the link to the newly-updated, national weather service flash flood site for utah is:


Flash Flood Forecast ~ National Weather Service (http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/slc/flashflood/)

Brian McInerney (at the NWS in salt lake) has worked hard on getting this up. i have suggested making a separate designation for the area containing the dirtydevil-northwash-north powell.

note: it can always be found at the top of the Canyoneering Links Sticky Thread

_________________________

i thought a few definitions may be useful for clarification:

note: there is a technical difference between the terms 'warning' and 'watch' which the nws maintains

Flash flood - A rapid (generally within six hours) rise of water along a stream or low-lying area after a heavy rainfall or from the failure of a dam, levee, or ice jam. By definition, flash flooding is life-threatening.


Flood - A flood occurs when water overflows the confines of a river, stream, or body of water, or accumulates in poorly drained low-lying or urban areas.


Hazardous Weather Outlook/Special Weather Statement - issued to alert the public of the potential for flooding/flash flooding. These products provide information on potentially hazardous weather out to 7 days.


Flash Flood Potential Rating - A qualitative rating (Low, Moderate, High, or Very High), indicative of the potential for flash flooding.


Flash Flood Watch - Issued when conditions are favorable for flash flooding. A watch usually gives 12 to 36 hours advance notice of the onset. A watch indicates a need for planning, preparation, and an increased awareness of changing weather conditions.


Flood Watch - Issued when conditions are favorable for river flooding. A watch usually gives 12 to 36 hours advance notice of the onset.


Flash Flood Warning - Issued when:

[goofball]

was talkign to hans flat yesterday and they had a downpour that took out the flint trail for a bit according to rangerette. they also believe the high spur road is washed out bad, but haven't driven it yet. crap. was able to drive it no problem in my hyundai last november but i guess this one http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=38.49209&lon=-110.14882&size=l&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG will have to wait a bit... again... :cry:

[Scott Card]

Weird how these weather/flash flood things are. Me, my daughter and 4 others did the Subway yesterday. We started in partly cloudy conditions and it cleared up for the rest of the day. I had my eye to the sky while hiking down all the slick rock with a mind to turn back if the clouds thickened at all but I started to see clearing from the south and the clouds started to break up as we hit the chimney down climb. By the time we were at Keyhole falls, it sunny and blue sky. And we got sunburned. We did see the remnants from some gully washers from days prior, the most significant were coming in from the East side or right looking down canyon. Hardly a sign of any rain from the west side and nothing from the top of the subway proper (Russel's Gulch) that showed any significant rain. All the signs of flashing were from blow the Subway proper part of the hike. I'll post some photos of my little Subway trip later.

[Iceaxe]

Weird how these weather/flash flood things are.

Agree.... some storms have to be really localized. I've watched The Squeeze flash big time while Knotted Rope doesn't get a drop of water. The strange part is both these routes exit into the Muddy River Gorge within a couple hundred yards of each other. I also watched Echo and Pine Creek flash big and we got nothing in Mystery. The storm only nailed the Great White Throne.

:ne_nau:

[James_B_Wads2000]

Not too surprised you saw this, the two drainages point in opposite directions. Plus the drainage for the Squeeze is much larger. My guess that it floods larger and more often than Knotted Rope.

Its pretty scary, kind of like lightning: it happens but you never know where.


James

[Iceaxe]

Its pretty scary, kind of like lightning: it happens but you never know where.

The really scary one for me was watching White Canyon flash last year. A bright blue day without a could in the sky..... it rained (down pour) for about an hour over Cheese Box the evening prior. It took about 10 hours for the surge to reach where we had camped. If we had not of watched the storm the night before I would have had no clue..... my caution level for a large drainage went way up after watching that little episode.

:popcorn:

[Scott Card]

Its pretty scary, kind of like lightning: it happens but you never know where.

my caution level for a large drainage went way up after watching that little episode.

:popcorn:

This is precisely the reason that I maintain the scariest place to be in Zion Park, particularly during Monsoon season, is the Narrows. When we left Zion yesterday it was blue sky over the park but to the north, far out of view of the narrows visitors, were some very ominous clouds. Appears from the flow levels that the Virgin river is again flashing somewhat.

[Iceaxe]

This is precisely the reason that I maintain the scariest place to be in Zion Park, particularly during Monsoon season, is the Narrows.

Yeah but....

The Narrows are really only scary for the mile section above the confluence with Ordeville. Just about every where else safety is just a hop, skip and jump away.

I was in Imlay once and a big thunderstorm moved over head.... now that was scary.... we were in the center of the Deep Narrows with no place to run and hide and the nearest safe spot was an hour away.... that was probably the most scared I have ever been of getting killed by a flash flood.

:popcorn:

[Scott Card]

Agreed. Any canyon you are in when the rain comes down on you is scary. I was in the Squeeze when a rain storm started and holy crap you have never seen four guys rap, swim and jump faster. My point is that the narrows seem to be the only Zion canyon where you can be under completely sunny skys in the park and be nailed by a flash flood from a rain storm pretty far away. Of course you can be swept away from any rain storm from directly above. :popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

I've seen a lot of flash floods..... you do get "some" warning..... maybe only a few seconds, often much more. And you can often out run them for a short distance.... which is why I never considered the Narrows to be super dangerous. The slots that scare me are the ones with no place to run and no place to hide.

:cool2:

[tanya]

It's crazy here right now! Trees falling on houses..... our golf course flooded... what a mess!

[CarpeyBiggs]

Ah Snap! Pine Creek with flow this weekend, perhaps?

Or better yet, maybe stay home and not die?

[CarpeyBiggs]

Looks like Kolob Terrace Road suffered some pretty bad damage in the flood tonight, but I'm not sure where at. Word is the road is closed right now... Might put a damper on the das boot idea?

[rockgremlin]

Wow...so what's the contingency plan?

[tanya]

Not golf. :ne_nau: Our course is filled with thick thick mud..... what a mess! I am afraid to look outside today! It was stilling pounding hard when I went to bed last night! Sewers are backed up all over the place. People evacuated from Virgin....

Not a safe place in canyons here right now!

I was watching the East Fork yesterday... it's raging!

[rockgremlin]

Once again the question --- what is the contingency plan? Rain check? Different hike? Zion isn't very flexible if plans change last minute....ya know?

[Amnesiac]

Hey, first post here, I love the forum...

Anyway, does anybody know how it is down around Leprechaun canyon? I'm supposed to take a group of scouts down there this weekend to do Leprechaun and Blarney and I want to make sure it's going to be okay before I make the drive down there. Thanks...

[Iceaxe]

I think you are getting your panties in a bunch a little early....

I also expect the Kolob Road to be repaired extremely fast. Lots of summer homes up that way.

Tonight: Scattered thunderstorms during the evening. Partly cloudy skies after midnight. Low 71F. Winds SW at 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 50%.

Friday: Sunny along with a few clouds. High 94F. Winds W at 10 to 15 mph. Generally clear overnight.

Saturday: Mix of sun and clouds. Highs in the low 90s and lows in the low 70s.

Sunday: Isolated thunderstorms. Highs in the low 90s and lows in the upper 60s.

Monday: Partly cloudy with a stray thunderstorm. Highs in the low 90s and lows in the upper 60s.


:popcorn:

[CarpeyBiggs]

All I see is a bunch of lightning bolts...

Seriously though, why do they show storms in the graphic if it is only a 20 percent chance? Hopefully it will all blow over by tomorrow...

[Iceaxe]

Anyway, does anybody know how it is down around Leprechaun canyon?

Unless its raining directly on top of Leprechaun you are safe. The drainage for Leprechaun is extremely small and clearly visible at all times. The canyon also resides in the rain shadow of the Henry Mountains and doesn't get a lot of moisture.

Ditto for Blarney.

We often use both these canyons as a fall back plan if weather in the area looks iffy.

Good luck, have fun, and if it starts to rain on your head get out of the slot.

Have the scouts do a short service project and pick up the campsite before leaving. It will be much appreciated.

:popcorn:

[rockgremlin]

Posting my plan here just in case we all get seperated and can't get in touch:

Friday -- Leaving after work, meeting Kyrell in Virgin. We plan to hook up with CarpeyBiggs to camp out on the Kolob Terrace Road somewhere around 10:00pm.

Just so you guys know....

[CarpeyBiggs]

Did you get my email Rock? The campsite I wanted to stay it is now under water... Mosquito Cove is out too... Perhaps we should shoot for Lava Point now?

[Iceaxe]

Damn... the Staples are friends of my family. They really got nailed!

Deluge soaks So. Utah
BY PATRICE ST. GERMAIN
patrices@thespectrum.com

VIRGIN - The North Creek flooded its banks Wednesday evening, bringing a torrent of water through Virgin, closing State Route 9 for several of hours and leaving behind a muddy mess and a massive amount of damage.

But despite the high property damage and personal losses, as of Wednesday evening, there were no reported losses of human lives, but a lot of heartache for one family.

The Staples family, who has a group of six homes along the North Creek on Kolob Road in the county, had muddy water wash through their homes.

Water marks along the houses were up to four feet high and several massive trees smashed into the houses and swept away vehicles.
Luann Staples said the area where she and her husband and adult children had settled seven years ago was a beautiful place to live up until Wednesday evening.

"It (the water) came up so fast," Staples said. "Two of the homes are gone."

Most of the family left before flood waters trapped a few members of the family in the homes before the flood waters receded. Air rescue was on standby if the family members remaining needed to be airlifted from the property.

Wet and muddy, the family planned to regroup at the local LDS church before finding motel rooms for the night.

Staples' husband estimated the damage at the family's property at over $1 million.

On State Route 9, the North Creek washed over the highway and into the Zion River Resort RV Park.

Springdale Police Chief Kurt Wright said the park was evacuated about 10 minutes before the water came down through the park, flattening trees and taking out tents and ripping awnings off RVs before the owners made a fast retreat from the fast moving water.

"This is the biggest flood I have ever seen in my lifetime," Wright said. "The water was cresting and tons of debris was flowing down."

Wright said while watching the water sweep through the park, there was a feeling of helplessness.

One group of foreign visitors were camping at the park and lost all their identification, money and credit cards while the group was out hiking in Zion National Park, Wright said.

At its peak, the water flowing across the highway was about 100 yards across and three feet deep in spots.

Springdale police officer Nick Hallman said campers at the RV Park were evacuated about 10 minutes before the water flowed down and another property was evacuated only 15 minutes before the muddy water roared into town.

Hallman said the flooding was the worst he had seen.

Virgin resident Jan Walker agreed.

"I saw the water coming down (the creek)," Walker said. "I saw the flood in 2005 and this is 20 times worse."

Even as the water receded, thick mud was left behind as work crews came in to clean up the damage left behind.

At Fort Zion in Virgin, Joy Ward, Riverside, Calif., and members of her group held an impromptu party in the parking lot.

The group of eight people in four motor homes had just checked in at the Zion River Resort when they were told to evacuate.

"We got out just in time," Ward said.

Ward said the group, all with Harleys, were coming back from Sturgis, South Dakota, and were planning on spending the night at the resort before the flood waters cut into their travel plans.

Ward said despite the way the last leg of their vacation was going, it was rather exciting.

Vicki Long, who was traveling in Ward's group, said everyone was making the best of the situation making up a batch of hors d'oeuvres before a dinner of chili dogs and corn on the cob before heading to Mesquite for the night.

After several hours, SR-9 reopened although Hallman said the Kolob Road would be closed overnight.

While the rain played havoc in some parts of the east side of the county, Zion National Park didn't experience any problems and hikers in the Subway, which is off the Kolob Road, all got out of the popular hiking area safely, said park spokesman David Eaker.

Numerous agencies came out to help, including the Springdale Police Department, Virgin, Hurricane and Colorado City Fire Departments, Washington County Sheriff's Office, Search and Rescue and Hurricane Police.

[Iceaxe]

A little update.... the Kolob Road is expected to be reopenned today.

:popcorn:

[rockgremlin]

A little update.... the Kolob Road is expected to be reopenned today.

:popcorn:

So, in light of this, is your campsite still accessible Dan?

[CarpeyBiggs]

:lol8: :lol8:

I sent you an email and posted a reply in here already.... The campsite is almost definitely under water. It is about 2 miles downstream from the house that currently has a tree through it's front porch.

Mosquito Cove might be okay in some spots, who knows though. Lava Point is still a good option.

[rockgremlin]

S'up to you C-biggs. I'm looking to camp out, and will follow you whereva, seeing as how you know Zion better than me. Where's Lava Point? Or more specifically, where will you be at Lava Point?

[Iceaxe]

Smith Mesa is good camping. Turn-off west just before Lower Subway TH. You have to go about 1 mile down the dirt road to get outside the park. About 1/4 mile after you exit the park there are some nice campsites.

I'll be thinking about you as I lounge around the pool drinking beer and watching the little tourist hotties.

:kickit:

[Scott Card]

Staples are friends of my family. They really got nailed!



Sorry to hear that. I have often admired that home and that little subdivision. What a beautiful place that [was?] is. I wonder how that pretty ranch up the road fared? The one tucked down in the valley as the road climbs to the west. Crazy storm.

[Win]

I've had to deal with a few floods and really feel for that family. I think that home belongs to John Staple, he owns a home theater installation company and did my theater. A really nice guy!

Win

[Iceaxe]

I have often admired that home and that little subdivision.

The subdivision (or compound as they refer to it) was all one family. The dad owned the McMansion at the head and gave property to any of his kids who wanted to build a house there. A really nice family. As an interesting side note..... the compound was professionally designed to withstand the 100 year storm and the houses were set 13 or 17 feet (can't remember which) above the flood plain. When developing the property they spent a lot of money to make certain this wouldn't happen. I called down earlier but was only able to talk with the son in law for a minute. As a professional engineer I'm interested in hearing what went wrong.... and NO, I was not the one who did the engineering on the compound.

:popcorn:
:nod:

[Iceaxe]

Update #2: At 7 a.m. this morning the road from Virgin to Kolob was open but four-wheel-drive was recommended. They are working on the road and should have it open to all in the very near future.

The only roads in Washington County currently closed are the roads to Gunlock. The north entrance into Gunlock is closed. The south entrance is being worked on and the plan is to have it open today.

[rockgremlin]

Hey Dan-

You still campin out at Lava Point? Keep me posted...

[bruce from bryce]

Sorry to hear about your friends Ice.

Now the real question is did they really prepare for a 100 year storm. Does anyone know what that means? Here is a definition from Fort Collins, CO:

http://tinyurl.com/yrhac3

And if you will note that the term applies to an event. It does not mean that it will only occur once every 100 years. I would propose that depending upon the location some places would have a higher likelihood of having more than one every 100 years. Zion Narrows with the monsoonal thunderstorms would be a good candidate. Anyone else have a location in mind that experiences an inordinate amount of thunderstorms?

:cool2:

Here is a NOAA map showing the mean frequency of t-storms within the US. Looks like Utah is some between 25-45. Tampa averages nearly 100 per year.

Interesting stuff, weather. I worked in the field for nearly 27 years and it never ceases to amaze me by it's inexactness. We always said yes it was a science, but an inexact science.

Be safe this weekend and don't take Mother Nature for granted.

[RedRoxx]

Ha, I live in Tucson and we are in the midst of monsoon season. The land of the stupid motorist law, that if you drive into a signed closed flooded wash you can be cited and have to pay for your swift water rescue.
So far a fair season. T-storms every other day. Some microbursts. One the other day had a fatality where an SuV driver either drove into or was swept into a wash, his vehicle was pinned under a bridge and he died.

Some downpours closed main streets downtown and even I-10 briefly due to debris on road and poor visibility.

I just finished a trip in the Gila in New Mexico on a 28 mile loop taking me as high as 9K elevation and had some biatching storms over there. I had a day of multiple creek hopping, crossed the next day and it was ragin. Placed some rocks by the creek bank and came back in 40 minutes and water was rising so rapidly rocks were swept away. Needless to say I camped high.

Doing an overnighter in a mountain range near home and expect thunderstorms all weekend here again. Trash bags, rain gear and 4 wheel drive rules!!!

[bruce from bryce]

don't know the name of the mountain but in NM there is a lightning facility on top of one that gets a huge amount of storms each year and they can collect a lot of data.

once saw a vertical cross-section of a lightning bolt through a time lapse photo - awesome.

[Iceaxe]

Now the real question is did they really prepare for a 100 year storm.

As I mentioned.... as an engineer I'm curious to see what went wrong. It's not like these folks were complete idiots and didn't know this happens. They spent a major amount of coin before building to make certain this would not happen.

Mother nature is strange.... the Zion Lodge is built on the Virgin Flood plain but has stood the test of time. Springdale and Rockvill are both built along the river and done alright..... but Graffton was destroied twice by floods and was finally abandonded and is now a ghost town.

:popcorn: