Knotted Rope Death

[Iceaxe]

I just heard of a death in Knotted Rope. Not yet sure of the details...

[Iceaxe]

Looks like Summit has posted a few details in the hiking section.

http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7829

This sucks.... because you just know its probably going to be someone from the Utah canyoneering community.

.

[asdf]

oh man this is horrible. .... Any idea what specific canyon it is?
http://www.kutv.com/video/?id=27338@kutv.dayport.com

[Iceaxe]

I'm 95% sure its Knotted Rope.

Knotted Rope
http://climb-utah.com/SRS/knotted.htm

The shot from the helicopter looked like this pothole. And this would be an easy place to get into trouble, its probably the hardest part of the canyon, particularly in low water. Report is the woman fell and broke her arm and could not get out of the pothole. The news says she probably died of hypothermia.

http://climb-utah.com/SRS/Files/knottedrope2.jpg

[rockgremlin]

oh man that sucks! knotted rope -- I never would've suspected that one to be a killer. UGH...this is not a good year for canyoneers.

[Iceaxe]

The names are released,,,,

Hiker Dies in Southern Utah
July 16th, 2007 @ 10:00pm
Sam Penrod Reporting

A Juab County woman has died after falling in Southern Utah. Marie Coray and her husband, Kimo, were hiking in the San Rafael Swell.

The Corays are experienced hikers. But Marie fell in the rugged country and broke her arm. Kimo worked more than four hours to free his wife. But she died, perhaps from other injuries or exposure. Kimo was flown to a hospital.

The couple was reported overdue from a camping trip on Sunday. The search focused on a remote area, and ended around noon Monday when the couple was found.

Kimo is in the LDS Bishopric in the Mona 3rd Ward. The bishop, Craig Weight, has high praise for Marie.

"I think everybody that knew her loved her," he said. "I don't think she was the kind of person that would ever say anything bad about anybody."

Neighbors say Kimo and Marie were always together.

Krista Steiner described them as a "very, very happy couple, [with the] kind of marriage that we've all kind of envied and want to achieve ourselves."

Kimo operates a photography business. The couple have six children.

[Iceaxe]

Hiker Dies In Rugged Central Utah Canyon
(KUTV) SALT LAKE CITY A woman died in a tragic climbing accident in Emery County, but it wasn

[stefan]

sad.

[Iceaxe]

Canyon fall kills climber
Husband watches helplessly as she tumbles into a 'pothole'
By Erin Alberty
The Salt Lake Tribune

An experienced rock climber died over the weekend when she fell into a pool of water in a remote San Rafael Swell canyon and, because of injuries suffered in the fall, could not pull herself out. Her husband and climbing companion was unable to rescue her.

Marie Coray, 58, was rappelling Saturday over a "pothole" - a pool of water at the bottom of a deep crevice - when she slammed into the canyon wall and broke her arm, apparently in an attempt to swing to a trail on the other side of the pool, said Emery County Sheriff Lamar Guymon.

Because her arm was broken, she could not pull herself out, Guymon said. Her husband, Kimo, couldn't pull her out either.

"He was there with her until she expired," Guymon said.

The accident occurred in a section of the San Rafael Swell that is crisscrossed with deep narrow canyons cut into rock walls. The Corays were exploring Knotted Rope Canyon, a side channel to Cistern Canyon, Guymon said.

The couple were to return to their home in Mona on Saturday. A rescue team began searching about 3 a.m. Monday after the Corays' family reported them missing. Their son, Jimmy Coray, said members of their church became concerned when the couple did not show up for services Sunday morning.

Searchers found Kimo Coray, 58, Monday about 9:30 a.m. after he had walked 20 miles in the wrong direction, Guymon said. Apparently Coray had become disoriented and began hiking out on the wrong trail.

Rescuers rappelled into the pothole to retrieve Marie Coray's body later Monday. Authorities aren't sure whether she drowned or died of hypothermia. An autopsy is likely Tuesday, Guymon said.

Kimo Coray, a professional photographer, suffered cuts and bruises and was dehydrated, Guymon said.

He has returned to his home in Mona; his family said he is not speaking publicly about the accident. The Corays have six adult children.

While it was the couple's first trip to Knotted Rope Canyon, Jimmy Coray said, they went in with 15 years of successful climbs behind them.

"They're very experienced," he said. "It's quite a shock."

Guymon agreed. "This is not a case of someone not knowing what they're doing."

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_6393423

[Iceaxe]

From the helicopter shots I saw on KUTV news it was this pothle. The pothole is easy to identify from the air because the canyon makes a very sharp 90 degree turn about 20 feet upstream.

I believe there are lessons to be learned from examing these accidents.

I know a lot of folks are asking why the man couldn't get his wife out, but I bet when more facts start coming out there will be a strong reason. Maybe she was hurt worse then a simple broken arm? maybe she took a bunch of the gear with her to the bottom of the pothole?

[rockgremlin]

I also questioned why her husband wasn't able to help her out. But I'm guessing she pulled the rope into the pothole with her. Otherwise, the husband would've been able to descend a fixed line to assist in her retrieval.

Either that, or he did have a fixed line in place, but was unable to pull his wife out of the pothole after repeated attempts. Ever try and pull someone straight up out of water at the end of a rope? Extremely difficult. He might have exhausted himself trying.

How awful --- to listen to your wife perish right in front of you, knowing there's nothing you can do to save her.

[rockgremlin]

This is one of the reasons why I prefer to canyoneer in groups larger than 3. In the sport of canyoneering, teamwork is a HUGE asset.

[Scott Card]

This is a real sad deal. I hope the details will come out on this soon. I would like to hear of the training, experience, and equipment these two had. Also, I would like to hear what efforts/techniques were made to get her out. I don't want to know this information to criticize but rather to add to my knowledge of things to take into a canyon or skills that need to be brushed up on or learned.

[hesse15]

I do not think that somebody that lost his dear wife in such a terrible way will be willing to "analyze" "disclose" and be thought any thing.
If that happened to me the last thing i will do is getting out details .

i think is a very sad occurrence and the lesson i am learning that i need to get more training in rescuing whatever canyon i do.

if my dear one get hurt am I able to lift him out and save him from drowining?
am I able to finish or reverse the canyon by myself whithout getting lost?
am I capable of doing first aid help to him?

most of these answer are NO
and that is what i am going to work on, because if something like that happen to me, my life will be affected forever.

that is also why i want my dear partners play 100% safe and ultraconservative when they are with me.

and usually i will not shut up until i get that ,no matter how skilled and strong are my dearest
:frustrated: :frustrated: :frustrated: :frustrated: :bueller: :blahblah:

i admit testosterone demostration only in one kind of situation and that is kind of private.....




This is a real sad deal. I hope the details will come out on this soon. I would like to hear of the training, experience, and equipment these two had. Also, I would like to hear what efforts/techniques were made to get her out. I don't want to know this information to criticize but rather to add to my knowledge of things to take into a canyon or skills that need to be brushed up on or learned.

[Iceaxe]

I've been giving this some though and I'm not sure how you would lift a person out of this pothole by yourself? There is no anchor easily accessible that I can remember that would not cause a major amount of friction in the ropes.

I'd be curious to hear some ideas, Lets assume a person who is of little or no help physically and equal to your own weight. There is a small arch down canyon about 20' that you can sling and use as an anchor. But the small arch is very low in the canyon wall. I can't remember exactly what's immediately up canyon.

This is the pothole that used to have the pole vault pipe in it. Maybe hauling anther pipe down from above would have provided some assistance?

.

[James_B_Wads2000]

I do not think that somebody that lost his dear wife in such a terrible way will be willing to "analyze" "disclose" and be thought any thing.
If that happened to me the last thing i will do is getting out details .

Is this what you really think? I thought for sure you would be saying got what they deserved. I mean that

[rockgremlin]

Who cleaned up the pipes? maybe she'd still be alive today if the pipes were still there.

[CarpeyBiggs]

[quote=James_B_Wads2000]Is this what you really think? I thought for sure you would be saying got what they deserved. I mean that

[Jaxx]

[quote=James_B_Wads2000]Is this what you really think? I thought for sure you would be saying got what they deserved. I mean that

[asdf]

Who cleaned up the pipes? maybe she'd still be alive today if the pipes were still there.

The pipes were removed from the canyon? Why?

[Iceaxe]

I just heard from Emery County SAR who preformed the rescue in Knotted Rope.

First order of business is SAR wanted to warn all canyoneers that the water levels in Knotted Rope (and other parts of the Swell) are extremely low and the route is in a dangerous condition. Knotted Rope is a route that becomes more difficult as the water levels drop.

And now a few more details.... The accounts in the news are fairly accurate to this point in time. The accident occurred at the first pothole in Knotted Rope. The pictures above are of the pothole where the accident occurred. The water level in the pothole is currently 7 feet below the lip of the pothole. The couple did have a rope and were unable to extract the female from the pothole with the equipment they had available.

http://uutah.com/forum/files/pothole3.jpg

[hesse15]

wow James l
ong time not hearing from you
last time was the argument about the grizzly boy
i ended up thinking was a relative of yours for how much you get upset at me.
was he?

i think the other case were different
now we are talking of somebody that saw in front of his eye diyng his love one, the person was planning the rest of his life with,his best friend the companion of his life the mother of his kids.

i think if he can he will gave his life for her.

the other cases are totally different but if you cannot see the difference is not my fault

so do not jump on me this time :hippy:





[quote=hesse15]I do not think that somebody that lost his dear wife in such a terrible way will be willing to "analyze" "disclose" and be thought any thing.
If that happened to me the last thing i will do is getting out details .

Is this what you really think? I thought for sure you would be saying got what they deserved. I mean that

[hesse15]

is an old discussion(2 yearsago) between me and james about a movie.

i am a "little' harsh on my comment sometime.... so people sometime does not like that.

by the way no i never been struck by a lightning but i had 3 boyfriend that before meet been had been,
does it count? :haha:


[quote=Jaxx][quote=James_B_Wads2000]Is this what you really think? I thought for sure you would be saying got what they deserved. I mean that

[CarpeyBiggs]

i am a "little' harsh on my comment sometime.... so people sometime does not like that.
Yeah, I think it is safe to say that you have been less than sensitive in some cases... Particularly the Heaps accident. But your comments today have been very sensitive. Go figure.


by the way no i never been struck by a lightning but i had 3 boyfriend that before meet been had been,
does it count? :haha:
Wait, you are saying three of your previous boyfriends have been struck by lightning? Damn, that must be some kinda bad sign.

[hesse15]

yeah but BEFORE they met me :roflol:

definetly after been strucked by lightning dealing with me was not that bad.

:2thumbs:

perhaps i need electric people in my life....



i am a "little' harsh on my comment sometime.... so people sometime does not like that.
Yeah, I think it is safe to say that you have been less than sensitive in some cases... Particularly the Heaps accident. But your comments today have been very sensitive. Go figure.


by the way no i never been struck by a lightning but i had 3 boyfriend that before meet been had been,
does it count? :haha:
Wait, you are saying three of your previous boyfriends have been struck by lightning? Damn, that must be some kinda bad sign.

[hesse15]

one is the arm the other is how the electricity come out of the ground
pretty impressive
and again that happened 1 years before he met me

[RedRoxx]

Pardon my ignorance, but do some of ya'll ever practice self or assisted rescues?? Cavers do some, usually in association with an NSS function or a local SAR group. It's status quo in our caving grotto if someone is lost or hurt in a cave we are on a call list and usually assist in the rescue.

Some in our caving group are planning on some big pit raps and ascents in deep caves in Mexico in Dec ( 700 feet to the big one--1200+ feet of free rap) and we are doing a lot of "what if's" this or that goes wrong. No close by help or good medical care in that part of the Yucatan. So planning to be as self sufficient as possible.

Don't know in this case if any training would have been helpful to this poor couple.

[ratagonia]

I've been giving this some though and I'm not sure how you would lift a person out of this pothole by yourself? There is no anchor easily accessible that I can remember that would not cause a major amount of friction in the ropes.

I'd be curious to hear some ideas, Lets assume a person who is of little or no help physically and equal to your own weight. There is a small arch down canyon about 20' that you can sling and use as an anchor. But the small arch is very low in the canyon wall. I can't remember exactly what's immediately up canyon.

This is the pothole that used to have the pole vault pipe in it. Maybe hauling anther pipe down from above would have provided some assistance?

.

Sounds like you're looking for a "Canyon Rescue" class, Shane. I know this red-headed guy that offers one, down Cedar City way...

Tom

[ratagonia]

Pardon my ignorance, but do some of ya'll ever practice self or assisted rescues?? Cavers do some, usually in association with an NSS function or a local SAR group. It's status quo in our caving grotto if someone is lost or hurt in a cave we are on a call list and usually assist in the rescue.

Some in our caving group are planning on some big pit raps and ascents in deep caves in Mexico in Dec ( 700 feet to the big one--1200+ feet of free rap) and we are doing a lot of "what if's" this or that goes wrong. No close by help or good medical care in that part of the Yucatan. So planning to be as self sufficient as possible.

Don't know in this case if any training would have been helpful to this poor couple.

Not very often, but quite a few of us have taken the Canyon Rescue course.

Even with a lot of training, extracting the woman would have been difficult given the likely lack of resources. Knotted Rope does not require much technical gear (when full), so they likely did not have a whole lot of gear with them. Anchors in that section of canyon are few and far between. Difficult, and sad.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Sounds like you're looking for a "Canyon Rescue" class.

Oh I have a few ideas for what I would have done..... And I'm pretty sure my number one option is not in the redheads book..... I mean if he actually had a book. :haha:

I am curious to hear what options others would have used before tainting the waters with my thoughts.

I consider these "what if's" to be excellent training.

:popcorn:

[snatch]

first things first... the person trapped in the pothole needs a harness on. in the photo above it appears the person frictioning around the pothole is not wearing a harness.

upcanyon person could find any any suitable anchor to first anchor themselves into.

if no FRICTIONLESS anchors nearby, the person upcanyon would be forced to act as anchor.

person upcanyon needs 2 belaying devices, preferably locking. belaying devices are seperated by a carabiner.

attach the center of the rope to the above mentioned carabiner with a figure 8 or a biner block.

as rescuer is looking downcanyon, he holds onto the the tail end of the right side of the rope and lowers a giant loop to the rescuee.

repeat this step with the left half of the rope, making sure that both loops have enough length to reach rescuees feet.

in essence, a giant "W" should be formed with the rope.


next, rescuee attaches a self-locking knot onto both of the center strands of the rope and attaches this to their belay loop.

in essence, 2 giant foot loops have been formed.

rescuee then shifts weight from foot to foot as rescuer belays with each step.

surely the rescuees feet will slip out of the loops so on the trough of each loop attach a carabiner with a loop of webbing. the loop of webbing may be fastened to the shoes of rescuee with a cinch knot or a simple clove hitch.

...and that's my first thought. what are its weaknesses?[/quote]

[CarpeyBiggs]

Impressive idea Snatch... My only question is what does the woman do with a broken arm? Seems like it would be difficult to balance with only one arm. Unless she is super tough and can handle the pain...

Other than that, all I can say is wow. Not sure I'd be that creative...

[snatch]

with one arm i think the rescuee would be able to adjust the prusik/friction hitch. it would take some strength but all of rescuees weight would be in the footholds, not on the prussik.

[Iceaxe]

Hey Snatch.... I never told you this before but one of your usual parrtners paid you the highest compliment I know of a while back….. he said when things go all to shit Snatch is a guy you want to have around.

:2thumbs:

[price1869]

Formal usual partner. Though I'd still trust my life to Snatch over anyone else I know.

My thoughts were the same, get her harness (if she has one, if not, tie up something quick) rig up a simple prusik/pulley system and start hauling. It's probably not as simple as it sounds, and difficult to keep a level head in that type of situation.

(Knotted rope is a technical canyon, but it can be reversed, so doing it without a harness on is not out of the question.)

Ice, I understand that the water level was 7 feet below the lip of the pothole, any idea how deep the pothole is? could she touch?

[RedRoxx]

Just some other random thoughts.

Cheap and easy footloops--- webbing dog collars sold everywhere complete with snap buckles. Have used those to fabricate a frog system on ascents, can tighten down to keep tension on boots to prevent slippage or unsnap for quick climbing.

I usually carry a small pully with a lock off/friction cam for hauling, useful if you have to rig heavy pack hauling, do a traverse or assist pulling someone up something and you are not that strong, or don't have a good belay system.

Always carry a short length of handline, and a ascender of some sort. To climb up or down short distances if your main or last rope in use and unable to use the tail or whatever. I have traditional handled ascenders ( heavy) and or carry a tibloc.

Caving problem--
We descended a vertical drop of about 40 feet to a room, part of the drop involved squirming into a stone chute about 8 feet in length with two constrictions, so tight helmets removed and shifting about like you were putting on tight jeans. No packs, and everything shoved below or above you, we belled out into the roof of a small room. Coming back up ascending once your upper body was in the hole your legs dangled below you and you couldn't lift them up to assist you because of the first constiction. Your upper body is wedged such that one arm is above you and one below. And you are against gravity. Took a lot of keeping calm and making very small adjustments to get out of that one I tell you. We had several people stationed topside just in case we had to be pulled out, which in fact one guy did have to have help; he was broader shouldered than me. So some things are very difficult even if you have all the gear and are healthy.

[tanya]

Formal usual partner. Though I'd still trust my life to Snatch over anyone else I know.

My thoughts were the same, get her harness (if she has one, if not, tie up something quick) rig up a simple prusik/pulley system and start hauling. It's probably not as simple as it sounds, and difficult to keep a level head in that type of situation.

(Knotted rope is a technical canyon, but it can be reversed, so doing it without a harness on is not out of the question.)

Ice, I understand that the water level was 7 feet below the lip of the pothole, any idea how deep the pothole is? could she touch?

That is a super compliment comming from this guy. :eek2: I have still never seen a better photo than the one of you two guys and one other on the side of a mountain looking up at rain clouds or something. The looks on your faces are priceless!!!!

[bruce from bryce]

I think the pothole in question may be in MK's red book. If not, the two photos still give an impressive (depressive) view of what it might take to extract a person from a similiar one.

FWIW. For those of you who go to the dark side there is a post by an individual who had personal involvement with this couple. He was not impressed.

[rockgremlin]

FWIW. For those of you who go to the dark side there is a post by an individual who had personal involvement with this couple. He was not impressed.



Ya I saw that post. Very telling, and confirms some suspicions I had.

[Iceaxe]

Alright.... my rescue method is not all that complex..... but probably has a high chance of success...... why not reverse out and get help from Hidden Splendor? Reversing this route is simple. Its one hour back and there are always people at the airstrip on a weekend. Also, you can get cell coverage from the top of the mesa. Not sure if they had a cell with them or in their vehicle. I'm sure he didn't want to leave his wife.

From crossing the pothole in the past using the pole vault method I'd say the pothole is 15 feet deep from lip to bottom. The water level is currently down 7 feet. I'm pretty sure the pothole water was over the woman's head as I hear her body was recovered hanging in ropes which I'm guessing were rigged to try and stop her from drowning.

[Iceaxe]

an individual who had personal involvement with this couple. He was not impressed.

I'd take one comment like that with a big grain of salt. Since that is not exactly what I'm hearing from other places. Not saying this couple was Daniel Boone, but they were not city slickers either.

Also... one guys noob is anthers pro.....

And things change a lot over time. Just imagine what my comments for Bruce would be if I based them only on my one experience, two years ago, when he was doing his first tech canyon? I'm not picking on Bruce, just making a point since he brought it up.

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

A few more details....

Knoted Rope Canyon
By Myrna Trauntvein
Times-News Correspondent

A couple from Mona, missing since Saturday night, were found at noon on Monday, however, the outcome was not happy.

The couple was spending the weekend in the San Rafael Swell, but a falling accident while hiking claimed the life of Marie Coray, 58, who broke her arm while rappelling and got caught in a pool of water.

Kimo and Marie Coray, both middle-aged, were experienced outdoor fans and had been on many camping, hiking and climbing excursions.

Kimo Coray, who is the owner of Kimo

[CarpeyBiggs]

Perhaps a bit off topic, but did anyone else recognize that most of that article is plagiarized? It is regurgitated from other news outlets... And, the picture they used is from Tom's webpage.... I guess it is Nephi, probably not a lot of staff at that paper.

One source of quotes: http://stage-v2.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1491261

Tom's picture:from his webpage.
http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/swell/9910x.jpg

[quote]This is the San Rafael Swell

[Iceaxe]

I guess it's only fair they steal pictures from Tom's website since that was the route description the couple was using.....

At least I assume that it was Tom's. I asked SAR if it was mine and was told it was the "other website".

One good point was it appears the couple did use a check in person, check in time and left them with a route description. Since the husband became disoriented and lost this might have saved his life. So I guess that's at least three things they did right. That puts the couple about 10 points up the smart and experienced ladder over some groups.

:popcorn:

[hesse15]

super sad
all my condolences to the guy,
but the below make me either more sad
damn if my parents or somebody i care is not returning home as suppose to i will not wait 1 day and a half to call for a rescue.

that remind again the importance of telling somebody where you plan to be and when you are suppose to be back.

sad sad and more sad


[quote=Iceaxe]A few more details....


The search began early Sunday after the call was received from the Coray

[ajroadtrips]

super sad
damn if my parents or somebody i care is not returning home as suppose to i will not wait 1 day and a half to call for a rescue.


Hesse has threatened me that if I miss a call-in, she will immediately post on the canyons group, uutah, and send an e-mail to Ice (and others that know me) stating I am lost and in need of help. These threats keep me in check. I would likely chew off an arm if need be to make a check-in and keep the "deserthiker is lost and needs help" distress call from going out....

:roflol:

I often fudge some of the other "rules" (going solo, not ALWAYS wearing a helmet, etc..), but I go out of my way to do the check-ins. Often driving an hour or more from remote locations to do them. They are a simple way to insure you at least have help coming at some point.

I think there would be nothing worse than being stuck somewhere with no hope that anyone knows where you are at. (ala Aaron Ralstone)

[Alex]

I haven't had much experience with canyoneering yet, but with rafting I usually calculate what time I get off a river, then add an hour to pack and get to the cell reception to make a call to my wife. Then I leave all the emergency numbers for her and all the information she'd need to track me (Permit number, river name, put in/take out, etc). Iff I don't make a call by a specific time, I tell her to call SAR. Luckily, that hasn't happened yet, I did come very close once though.... by about 3 minutes she told me. :eek2:

[Alex]

Hey I just got an idea, what if we make a forum here for the Check In/Out to use for our members and to help each other. Since most of us know how to contact SAR and get help and explain what/where the excursion is taking place better than family members, it might just work out.

I am thinking of a format such as a single post with the following info:

Name:
Cell phone number:
Group Size:
Destination:
Start date/time:
Scheduled finish date/time:
Emergency family contact:
Local SAR contact:

Any thoughts/flames?

[rockgremlin]

Hey I just got an idea, what if we make a forum here for the Check In/Out to use for our members and to help each other. Since most of us know how to contact SAR and get help and explain what/where the excursion is taking place better than family members, it might just work out.

I am thinking of a format such as a single post with the following info:

Name:
Cell phone number:
Group Size:
Destination:
Start date/time:
Scheduled finish date/time:
Emergency family contact:
Local SAR contact:

Any thoughts/flames?

One big problem with this: This is advertising to the world that you will be gone, and is inviting anyone to come rob your house in your absence.

[hesse15]

Alex that will be a nice idea, but from personal experience lately , i do not think put personal information and phone number on the internet is a safe way to do, beside most of us know each other in person, and we overall are nice people , you never know who else is gotting these numbers.

i have now some people numbers that i can call in case of an emergency and they can help getting the SAR to the right place.

so we can do the same you suggest , but just keeping off public view and sending email to each other.

:popcorn:
by the way the day i sent the email to deserthiker: IN CASE I DIE... with 2 numbers of salt lake people that are italian/english speakers and 10 phone number of how to reach my parents or my brother oversea , he was a little perplex .

but i still think is better to have these ready just in case , you know if i got struck by a lightening... :ne_nau:



Hey I just got an idea, what if we make a forum here for the Check In/Out to use for our members and to help each other. Since most of us know how to contact SAR and get help and explain what/where the excursion is taking place better than family members, it might just work out.

I am thinking of a format such as a single post with the following info:

Name:
Cell phone number:
Group Size:
Destination:
Start date/time:
Scheduled finish date/time:
Emergency family contact:
Local SAR contact:

Any thoughts/flames?

[Iceaxe]

Hey I just got an idea, what if we make a forum here for the Check In/Out to use for our members and to help each other.

Not that I don't like you guys a bunch..... but I don't trust replying on an internet forum for my safety. I usually leave my info with my wife or father. I have no doubt those two will move heaven and earth if I fail to make a check in.

:hippy:

[marc olivares]

One big problem with this: This is advertising to the world that you will be gone, and is inviting anyone to come rob your house in your absence.



although i do agree w/ what your saying Justin (i too hate webcasting when i'll be gone and leaving the wife home alone) perhaps we should get a smaller "members" group list
include only those who we've done routes w/ etc... keep it on the Down low or off the general web.
i'm backing the idea, as it would be nice to have for my wife in the event that i do something stupid or otherwise... :ne_nau:


i have to admit Ryan, a "Deserthiker rescue" would definately trump a red tail hawk any day. we'd deninately get some milage out ot that one :haha:

[Iceaxe]

i have to admit Ryan, a "Deserthiker rescue" would definately trump a red tail hawk any day. we'd deninately get some milage out ot that one :haha:

I think a Deserthiker rescue would be easier.... just put a bag over his head and lead him out. :haha:

[adrians]

Snatch, pretty brilliant--I am not SAR so please refrain from jumping all over my ass, but what about this modification...the person being rescued then can lean into the wall and not use the broken arm...

the rescuer can tie off two strands of rope off his harness carabiner--tie a loop in each end and lower the two ends into the pothole forming an upside down V. The rescuee can slip a foot into each loop. The rescuer ties two prussiks onto harness belay loop. As the rescuee steps in one loop and weights it, the rescuer can slowly pull up the other end/loop a little, say two feet and adjust the prussik. The rescuee then weights the other side and steps up, the prussik tightens and they readjut the other end/loop in the same manner thus crawling up the rope until a hand pull can top them out.

Adrian

[ratagonia]

Snatch, pretty brilliant--I am not SAR so please refrain from jumping all over my ass, but what about this modification...the person being rescued then can lean into the wall and not use the broken arm...

the rescuer can tie off two strands of rope off his harness carabiner--tie a loop in each end and lower the two ends into the pothole forming an upside down V. The rescuee can slip a foot into each loop. The rescuer ties two prussiks onto harness belay loop. As the rescuee steps in one loop and weights it, the rescuer can slowly pull up the other end/loop a little, say two feet and adjust the prussik. The rescuee then weights the other side and steps up, the prussik tightens and they readjut the other end/loop in the same manner thus crawling up the rope until a hand pull can top them out.

Adrian

Try it next time you are out, see how it works.

Tom

[hank moon]

Hey I just got an idea,

Alex, that's the seed of a great idea. If there were a secure way to house the info such that a limited group of people had access....what a great tool that could be. Execution and thoughtful organization would be key.

[Alex]

Hey I just got an idea,

Alex, that's the seed of a great idea. If there were a secure way to house the info such that a limited group of people had access....what a great tool that could be. Execution and thoughtful organization would be key.

We could possibly do it with the help of the admins. Basically if you want to belong to the group of "help the uutah member", you'd fill out an app (which we can come up by ourselves) and then the admins would give the rights to the specially designed forum for approved members only.

But I see how some folks wouldn't want their private info to be out there. I guess we can rely back on the old ways of notifying the family members. :popcorn:

[Bo_Beck]

Sounds like you're looking for a "Canyon Rescue" class.

Oh I have a few ideas for what I would have done..... And I'm pretty sure my number one option is not in the redheads book..... I mean if he actually had a book. :haha:

I am curious to hear what options others would have used before tainting the waters with my thoughts.

I consider these "what if's" to be excellent training.

:popcorn:

Hmmmm?! Lot seems to depend on the "gear" available?
Piggyback a haul system (Fashioned from the "Purcell Prusik System" I always carry through a canyon) or build a system out of the rope being used to descend?

Descend on anchored rope...prusik high...2:1 system...hoist her "counterbalance" on the 2:1 with a change of direction with a capture "ratchet" prusik on her harness.....reset the "high" prusik and start again? 2:1 not cutting it? Too much friction? 4:1 with change of direction maybe?

Carabiners have about a 60-65% effeciency, so any haul system built is better served using minimal carabiners as "Pulleys".

Most effecient use would be a compound 9:1 using 4 carabiners (about a 5.4 MA effeciency) and hauling from up top. This system would require 3 prusiks and 4 carabiners. Again the purcell prusik system would supply all the material necessary to build the system minus 3 carabiners. Granted...if there is little working space up top...there may be many resets, but if it saves a life..who cares!

[Iceaxe]

Hmmmm?! Lot seems to depend on the "gear" available?

Usually folks descending Knotted Rope are carrying a minimum of gear. A short rope (60'), harness, belay device, a little webbing and a couple of biners are pretty much standard. I usually toss in a couple of hooks just for a situation like this.

Knotted Rope is not a canyon that requires much gear in normal conditions. Highly skilled canyoneers can even do the canyon without gear.....
.

[Bo_Beck]

Hmmmm?! Lot seems to depend on the "gear" available?

Usually folks descending Knotted Rope are carrying a minimum of gear. A short rope (60'), harness, belay device, a little webbing and a couple of biners are pretty much standard. I usually toss in a couple of hooks just for a situation like this.

Knotted Rope is not a canyon that requires much gear in normal conditions. Highly skilled canyoneers can even do the canyon without gear.....
.

And folks have always wondered what I carry in my BIG pack! Well...I guess that with just a couple biners and webbing it'll be a bit more strain hauling on a simple 3:1 :nod:

[Bo_Beck]

Hmmmm?! Lot seems to depend on the "gear" available?

Usually folks descending Knotted Rope are carrying a minimum of gear. A short rope (60'), harness, belay device, a little webbing and a couple of biners are pretty much standard. I usually toss in a couple of hooks just for a situation like this.

Knotted Rope is not a canyon that requires much gear in normal conditions. Highly skilled canyoneers can even do the canyon without gear.....
.

And folks have always wondered what I carry in my BIG pack! Well...I guess that with just a couple biners and webbing it'll be a bit more strain hauling on a simple 3:1 :nod:

Oops! I guess that with a couple biners you could get a 6:1 compound constructed..that'd make it a bit easier? :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

And folks have always wondered what I carry in my BIG pack!

When I go with you I always tell my wife I'm going with my private portable rescue unit. :lol8:

[oldno7]

Not sure here--but what if she had no harness and was using the rope as a safety only :ne_nau:

seems the lack of a harness would compound this situation

[Bo_Beck]

Not sure here--but what if she had no harness and was using the rope as a safety only :ne_nau:

seems the lack of a harness would compound this situation

Not comfortable, but a "Horseshoe Sling" fashioned on a Bowline on a Coil. Have her slide into it and hoist away! :nod:

[hesse15]

Rock i found this one in the post of Ice from last year knotted rope

Iceaxe wrote:
FYI: Some of the pipes have been removed from Knotted Rope. The canyon is much better without the pipes. Solving the first big keeper is interesting

There are easy ways to solve the problem that are not obvious and hard ways that are obvious....

I used to be a fan of keeping the pipes, but after doing the canyon and not using them I now think they should be removed if possible. The canyon is more fun and a little more challenging without the pipes. Only real danger is the first big keeper, and if you can't figure it out you can always turn around, hike back out, and come back anther day after improving your skills.




Who cleaned up the pipes? maybe she'd still be alive today if the pipes were still there.

[Bo_Beck]

And folks have always wondered what I carry in my BIG pack!

When I go with you I always tell my wife I'm going with my private portable rescue unit. :lol8:

I tell my wife I want to be a race car driver when I grow up. She thinks I'm nuts! I don't tell her I go with you! :haha:

[rockgremlin]

Rock i found this one in the post of Ice from last year knotted rope



Ah...thanks.

[UtahGreen35]

Not knowing the circumstances of the accident, it's tough to say what would be possible to ensure a rescue, but - Yeah, here are some options:

1 Every big wall climber knows how to rig a system for haul bags, either a 1:1 system, a 2:1 or even 3:1 mechanical advantage system to lift heavy loads - doesn't require much besides 2 simple ascenders and a pulley for a 2:1 system

2If you don't want to carry a drill, carry a 12V portable rechargeable screwdriver with a drill bit attachment - lightweight and reliable for anchors (if neccessary) - it's always amazed me that in a sport like climbing where most accidents and fatalities occur on rappel, that some people are squeamish about placing reliable anchors - I admire the environmental ethos, but if you have to place an anchor, place one! That enables the aforementioned option 1

3Always carry extra ropes, not a 50M 10.5 mil, but even a short section of 5-6 mm cord easily holds body weight. Even a poly rope will do for reversing moves or backing out of a difficult descent or in this case effecting a rescue.

4If you can't afford or don't want to carry ascenders, at least have Prusik slings

5Per first aid: secure the victime from further injury - I hate second guessing and only mean well, here. But in an accident such as this, her partner should've at least tried to get her out of the water to avoid hypothermia first, and then tried to effect a rescue.

Maybe these suggestions will help avoid more tragedies. Canyoneering's a great sport, but you have to be prepared for whatever could go wrong as well as for a good time.