LAMAR & Other Stupid Ideas

[Iceaxe]

I've been giving some serious thought to some of the dumbass canyoneering techniques currently in use. This is something that has always been on the back burner with me but after the death in Heaps last month I thought I'd toss out a few thoughts. How about I begin this thread with what I consider the worst canyoneering practice of all and #1 on my dumbass idea list

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Anyhow...

It seems you've grossly misunderstood what LAMAR means, but I can understand why, as the acronym could, by some stretch of the imagination, lead some one to believe that the last man is being "risked" or engaging in some atypical risky behavior, when in reality this is definitely not the idea behind the term. If some have misconstrued it some other way and are now increasing the risk for the last man, make sure these people are your last men down :)

A more accurate acronym would be "MRTMR"... maximum redundancy to minimize risk. Or "MCML": "Most Competent Man Last". Or something to that effect, because thats all that LAMAR is trying to accomplish. But those are dumb acronyms... Its two principles: 1) Using your people in a way that eliminates risk for everyone but the last one and 2) minimizing the risk of any accident at all by carefully selecting who that last one is.

One of the most important things I've learned in canyoneering is: the last person down a rappel better be your most competent one, or in an experienced group with no clear "leader", it should be someone with more than adequate skills and experience to lead the group and handle the technical aspects of being the only one up there, safely and cautiously.

The only way I've ever understood LAMAR or heard it used is in this context:

You back up your anchors (whether bolts or natural) in a simple, typically irretrievable way (I won't elaborate, depends on the situation), for everyone but the last. It is to increase safety for all those people and test the anchor without a failure resulting in catastrophe. Then, the last person goes, and by then the anchor has been thoroughly tested. The last person has the skills to get down the drop without someone looking over their shoulder. There are real additional risks in being the last man, no matter the setup, and they better have their head on straight.

Here are some real life examples of what I think of as LAMAR:

1) You come to two ancient bolts in a certain Zion Canyon. They aren't exactly comforting but you sling your rope through the webbing. In a pothole a few feet back you set a canyoneer or two on belay so if the bolts fail then nothing bad will happen. You get your biggest and less experienced canyoneers down the rappel, double checking everything with them. They rappel off the bolts, but with the added assurance that if the bolts fail, they'll be A-OK. Inevitably and eventually, the rope must be set in a retrievable way and one person is left alone up top. There is now more risk. Risk can be minimized, by leaving a competent canyoneer, typically of smaller stature than others in the equation, as the last one down. He will no longer have the luxury of a top anchor belay, but will have the luxury of knowing that people twice his size have just been down and the bolts didn't budge. Bottom belays are set where possible.

2) Same scenario, only with a natural anchor.

3) Same scenario, only at a downclimb with no anchor. There are often situations where it is safer to rappell everyone down-- for example, a 5.8 downclimb-- except the one 5.13 climber in your group who can set an anchor or handline from above for the group and then make the downclimb look like child's play (with a spot from below of course).


The alternative is to come to an anchor, check it, throw your ropes, and send everyone down as individuals. Everyone basically assumes the same amount of risk. Or come to a downclimb, and leave the ropes in the bag and hope everyone can handle it, because it is a downclimb after all. Its how a lot of people do it, I'll take LAMAR or "MCML" or whatever, any day. Whether I'm the last man or the first, on a bolt, deadman anchor, or downclimb, its a safer way to go when understood in this way. Risk management is an important part of canyoneering. To say there is no risk involved is naive.

Good opporunity for discussion/clarification! I'm ready for your rebuttal as to why its such a stupid idea, Shane! Bring it on :nod:

[CarpeyBiggs]

I realize I am kind of a n00b, but here is my two cents...

First off, I can't say much that Rock Ski didn't already say well, but those who explained LMAR to me never explained it to mean that one person was ever really at risk, but to minimize overall risk to the group... The point of LAMAR was to maximize the safety for every person in the group to the furthest extent possible.

Ironic case in point: rappelling off a deadman anchor. LMAR is used to to TEST the anchor on the first few people down while backed up, to make sure the anchor will be adequate for the last person down (who should summarily be the lightest, hopefully). Not sure how that could be construed as "stupid." Sounds not only reasonable, but just plain mandatory to me...

Then again, if we get rid of LMAR, we should rid ourselves of the deadman too, and start bolting every drop possible. Hate to have any risky rappels out there...

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Ah at this point I regret replying to such a subtly antagonizing initial post , but it took me a while to write all that and I think I made good points so I'll leave my above statement...

[Iceaxe]

Benny.... most of your post is describing "Sequencing".... but I understand where your going with it as LAMAR is often used as part of sequencing.....

But, since you like examples so much below is my problem with one of your examples.....


There are often situations where it is safer to rappell everyone down-- for example, a 5.8 downclimb-- except the one 5.13 climber in your group who can set an anchor or handline from above for the group and then make the downclimb look like child's play (with a spot from below of course).

I'm a really good walker... I've been walking around for nearly 50 years.... but eventually I'm going to trip and fall, the law of averages are going to catch up with me, or maybe I just didn't see the ice on the driveway as I walk out to get my morning paper. It doesn't matter that I'm a 5.13 walker, one of these days I'm going to take a big fall.

I guess my worry is I see to many groups depending in the downclimbing abilities of their 5.13 climber..... I see a lot of folks taking what I consider to be chances. Roll the dice often enough and it will eventually come up snake eyes. Or maybe put anther way.... some groups are doing a poor job of risk management.

:popcorn:

[CarpeyBiggs]

I'm a really good walker... I've been walking around for nearly 50 years.... but eventually I'm going to trip and fall, the law of averages are going to catch up with me, or maybe I just didn't see the ice on the driveway as I walk out to get my morning paper. It doesn't matter that I'm a 5.13 walker, one of these days I'm going to take a big fall.


Hey, if my odds of getting hurt in a canyon as a 5.13 climber are similar to my odds of slipping on some ice on the driveway, I like those odds....

[Iceaxe]

I don't know.... I expect to die a violent death in my driveway.... you know the drill.... jealous husband, alcohol involved.... :lol8:

[CarpeyBiggs]

:lol8:

[Brian in SLC]

[quote=Iceaxe]How about I begin this thread with what I consider the worst canyoneering practice of all and #1 on my dumbass idea list

[Iceaxe]

Its amazing all you climbers have survived all these years without the fabulous biner block. :lol8:

I have to agree about the biner block.... the most over used and inappropriately used technique used in canyoneering. You know my thoughts on this type of stuff:

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

I think everyone pretty much agrees that it was a biner block that caused the death in Heaps.... end of a long day, tired, dark, why use something more complicated then required?

The biner block is a useful technique to be used in specific situations..... not at every rappel. I once bitched to Rich about the ACA teaching this technique as standard operating procedure. Rich told me the ACA only teaches this as a tool for the toolbox and it was the students who had turned it into standard operating procedure. The biner block also has a couple of real down sides in the it ruins ropes and can hang up easily.

[Iceaxe]

I can see I might have been misinterpreting what I was seeing and what is meant in regards to LAMAR. Happy to see most of you were/are using safe practices.

But with the biner block I still thinks its being misused, over used and is not the best solution to most rappel problems.

And while were listing unsafe practices....

I see a lot of groups where one guy is navigating and everyone else is just following along... :nono:

:popcorn:

[CarpeyBiggs]

I can see I might have been misinterpreting what I was seeing and what is meant in regards to LAMAR. Happy to see most of you were/are using safe practices.

But with the biner block I still thinks its being misused, over used and is not the best solution to most rappel problems.

And while were listing unsafe practices....

I see a lot of groups where one guy is navigating and everyone else is just following along... :nono:

:popcorn:

Curious where you are seeing all these groups? You sure it isn't just your groups you are seeing, with everyone blindly following you? :lol8: :lol8:

[rock_ski_cowboy]

I'm a really good walker... I've been walking around for nearly 50 years.... but eventually I'm going to trip and fall, the law of averages are going to catch up with me, or maybe I just didn't see the ice on the driveway as I walk out to get my morning paper. It doesn't matter that I'm a 5.13 walker, one of these days I'm going to take a big fall.


Do you really thing this is a valid comparison? Couldn't come up with one of your sex with herpetic hookers analogies? :haha:




I guess my worry is I see to (sic) many groups depending in the downclimbing abilities of their 5.13 climber.....


I see a lot of folks taking what I consider to be chances. Roll the dice often enough and it will eventually come up snake eyes. Or maybe put anther way....



some groups are doing a poor job of risk management.




I see a lot of groups where one guy is navigating and everyone else is just following along... No No

Been doing a lot of observing of groups other than your own lately?

[bruce from bryce]

Shane, I for one disagree that the biner block was the cause of the death in Heaps.
It was the improper changing from the munter used to lower the first individual to the proper setting of the biner block. Had the block been put on the rappel ring/rapide then the canyon 'probably' would have been successfully completed. There were two individuals still at the anchor so it should have been changed properly. Unfortunately, for reasons that we will never know, it was not done so. And take this one step further.
If Keith had set the block correctly and then chosen to retie the two 200s to the 300 foot rope the block would have held him in place.