Moab, Colorado River, Bounty and Arches

[Scout Master]

Between Life and death in Bountiful Canyon

A few months a go a close friend approached me with interest of spending a week in the Moab area, a group of mutual friends wanted to do some white water rafting and some rappelling, along with the usual trips to well known arches and such. In my many years of adventure seeking I had never done white water in a raft. I have done some incredible class threes in open canoes, but never a raft. So I was excited.
I left my friend in charge of securing the rafting equipment and I set out to find the perfect slot canyon. As most of you know good beta on slot canyons comes at a price. $25.00 to join the circle of friends seems to be a reasonable price to get the information necessary to find a good canyon and necessary information to plan a successful trip. You can call me a cheep B@s!@rd. or just recognize that to some people $25. bucks is still a lot of money. So I decided to forgo the expense and just Google until I found a good canyon and fly by the seat of my pants the rest of the way. After some searching I choose Bounty, (Dragonfly) inside Arches National Park. It seemed to promise all the thrills of a good canyon, including a good hike, some water, and two good rappels. I have done plenty of rappelling but not enough canyons to really know what I was getting my self into.
Day one, travel and some warm up rappels after we got camp set up I found a nice 50 footer on the cliffs east of the river with a good overhang so the guys could experience around 30 foot of free hanging. No problems every one loved it.

Day Two, as I said above I am no stranger to white water and after several trips in open canoes the raft was less exciting but still plenty of fun. It

[Scout Master]

Day one Rappelling

[Scout Master]

Day two Rafting And rainbow Arch.

[Scout Master]

Day 3 Bounty Canyon

[Scout Master]

More Bounty

[Scout Master]

Day 4 Arches

[marc olivares]

thanks for sharing...buy some helmet

everything about your story scares me :ne_nau:

[rockgremlin]

thanks for sharing...buy some helmet

everything about your story scares me :ne_nau:

:haha: Same here! My palms sweat just reading this! Glad everything worked out. Thanks for sharing.

[nosivad_bor]

Wow, this could have been really bad. glad you made it out ok

[Alex]

Wow, should have invested that 25 bucks :nod:

Bounty is a wonderful canyon for beginners, you get everything, pot holes, raps, long raps and navigation skills and best of all, it's near Moab :2thumbs:

I am very happy to hear the good end to this story, but you have taken a lot of risk and took newbies down with out prep, scary!

From my personal experience with new people to any adrenaline rushing sport is never to drag people to it. If someone is interested in it, tell them the basic gear they'd need (for canyoneering, a helmet, harness, belay device, 2 bieners, a pack and good shoes). For rafting I have my own guidelines I follow. If the new person is really interested, he/she would be ready with all the gear and mind set.

Glad everything worked out ok though! :2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

Well, I can't point the finger of blame towards Scoutmaster here without having three fingers pointing back at me! When I started out canyoneering, I didn't have a harness, no good shoes, no helmet, no backpack, and I used borrowed ropes and belay devices from the guys I went with at the time...in other words, EXTREMELY ill prepared! I can recall doing trips through The Squeeze where we were all outfitted in "swiss seat" webbing harnesses, and ONE (yes ONE - 1) figure 8 between six of us!!!!

I've come a long way since then, but my point being that sometimes it's good to go get a taste of the sport first before going out and investing all the required $$$ on gear you may not use down the road.

[Alex]

Justin, you are absolutely right, but a sport like canyoneering doesn't give second chances. When it comes to biking or fishing, sure you can experience all you want, but with raps, it only takes one false anchor. You should know better than me when it comes to that topic, I am a total noob in canyoneering really.

From my outdoor experience, I have learned that if I want to enjoy the sport the way it's intended, go out and spend the money. For me, it's just not worth settling for half assed home made crap if I can go to REI and get all the nice stuff that will keep me safe.

When I guide personal trips and in charge of one, I don't allow people come with me if they don't understand the potential risk and don't have the basic gear. It's just not worth the hassle and worry from my side as a leader.

Hell, the first time you and Shane took me out, you made me spend like $200 bucks....plus the jerky/Gatorade expenses! :lol8:

[Alex]

and investing all the required $$$ on gear you may not use down the road.

...that's why you shop in REI, where have you been the last 20 years???? :roflol:

[hesse15]

dear scoutmaster,
i am sorry you did not get a good fun there
i was in the exploration team that named the canyon bounty.
we did in april
we had a thing called topographic map, that usually help with navigation, we dis whithout wetsuit and water was cold but short swimming
the canyon is pretty staight forward
and beside poison ivy there are not any trouble.
size wise usually is posted a warning only if is thighter than 180lbs, so we did not think about putting a warning because to have problem there you need to be over 200and that is another story.
I agree the fact that beside is a beginner canyon, taking 11 people no experience whatsoever and not enough harbnesses and not enough belay device , was pretty unwise.
glad everythin is ok
but i discourage you to do any technical canyon from the circle of friend until you do not get a little more experience
same situation in a more serious canyon can lead to big consequences.
the best will start with liddle wild horse canyon
bells canyons subway
and when you get some skills keyhole

slot canyoneer need to be take as a sport a little more seriously
also help to take a class from desert highlight and spend 100$ but saving your God-bonus for more important thing. :2thumbs:

[oldno7]

congrats on the trip--kinda :nono:

I'm new also but I did pay my redtail fees to Shane. :mrgreen:

(or was that booze and women fees?) :lol8:

The one picture of the guy with the beard tied into the anchor

is enough to scare me.(it's like name the # of things wrong in this pic)

[hesse15]

ok i got 4 for now
1 not wearing an helmet
2 using a pink harness from the 80s that is more than 20 years old
3 attaching to the chain using a cheap utility biner from homedepot not rated for human weight
4 having all the clutter of packs camera attach to the same anchor from where you rapell
other can be the rope you rappel from i not attached to the anchor but to a bunch of biner including the home depot one
and less extend the bear is not in a sort of pony tail with rubber band and is not keeped out of the way from rappelling
the locking biner seems to have the locking part low in the "open " position





congrats on the trip--kinda :nono:

I'm new also but I did pay my redtail fees to Shane. :mrgreen:

(or was that booze and women fees?) :lol8:

The one picture of the guy with the beard tied into the anchor

is enough to scare me.(it's like name the # of things wrong in this pic)

[moabmatt]

Most folks know that we've never disclosed the locations of the canyons we guide. Sorry if this has upset people in the past. In part it's because we've always enjoyed the relative obscurity of these places and the lack of crowding is a nice quality for guiding beginners. A larger part for us, however, is fearing that such broadbanding of info will lead to resource damage or an accident which could jeapordize our delicate relationship with local land managers.

We've guided Dragonfly since '98 and Tierdrop since '00. No incidents and the National Park Service has always been satisfied with our stewardship. Now, free internet beta for these two canyons is barely a month old, yet we've already seen Tierdrop Canyon's anchors get trashed (see attached photos). At least one group has pulled their ropes directly around all our rappel anchors and created major grooves and burns. Grooving the rock below the anchor is an eyesore at worse, but grooving and burning the anchor itself is a very real safety hazard for those of us who are in there day after day. Six years of guiding with over a thousand clients and no damage; now this after one month... Sigh.

Now we hear that a scoutmaster actually felt the need to pray to God while fearing for his kids' lives in Dragonfly Canyon - not because of circumstances beyond their control, but because of being ill-equipped and inexperienced. Would he have been there without that beta? I doubt it. And crossing a "Not A Trail" sign with a dozen scouts!?

These are the things we fear and why we've never disclosed locations. Don't forget that Arches is not Zion. The park's officials are leery, at best, of canyoneering. It's taken several years, but we've developed a good, trusting relationship with park officials. However, we're still not sitting pretty with an iron-clad 20 year concession contract, either. Our permit is up for review and scrutinized every year. A rescue of an inexperienced scout group or a few photos in the Zephyr of a bunch of rope grooves won't bode well for canyoneering in the park - regardless of whether you're commercial or private.

Sorry Scoutmaster to lump all of this with your thread. I'm glad your day was without incident and, I suspect, that they all had a great time.

Be careful out there!

Thanks,
Moab Matt
Desert Highlights

[oldno7]

ok i got 4 for now
1 not wearing an helmet
2 using a pink harness from the 80s that is more than 20 years old
3 attaching to the chain using a cheap utility biner from homedepot not rated for human weight
4 having all the clutter of packs camera attach to the same anchor from where you rapell
other can be the rope you rappel from i not attached to the anchor but to a bunch of biner including the home depot one
and less extend the bear is not in a sort of pony tail with rubber band and is not keeped out of the way from rappelling
the locking biner seems to have the locking part low in the "open " position

not sure what the figure of 8 knot is holding---hopefully not a human



congrats on the trip--kinda :nono:

I'm new also but I did pay my redtail fees to Shane. :mrgreen:

(or was that booze and women fees?) :lol8:

The one picture of the guy with the beard tied into the anchor

is enough to scare me.(it's like name the # of things wrong in this pic)

[Scout Master]

I fully planned to get lots of "advice" after this experience or or I would not have posted this report. So bring it on.

Ya thats me in the picture

Helmets, I agree. we should have had them. I plan to get some.

Cheep beaners. I agree, they were just for extra protection while I hooked every one up my feet never left the ground with them. I will get rid of them.

The pack is my Camel back. I was hooked there for 2.5 hours It was nice to have some water. It was not in the way

Never at any time was any person at any additional risk than any other canyoneer passing through this canyon. I was there to be sure everyone was safe.

There are two separate sets of anchors in the wall. The two I was hooked to and two more for the rappelling rope

Ya My harness is kinna pink. But it is still in excellent condition and not that old.

[Scout Master]

Now we hear that a scoutmaster actually felt the need to pray to God while fearing for his kids' lives in Dragonfly Canyon - not because of circumstances beyond their control, but because of being ill-equipped and inexperienced. Would he have been there without that beta? I doubt it. And crossing a "Not A Trail" sign with a dozen scouts!?

Hey Praying is always a good thing but you were right I was Ill Equipped and inexperienced. My inexperience was however just with blind canyons I have experience in over a thousand rappels

It was not a dozen scouts It was 10 adults

[rockgremlin]

Hell, the first time you and Shane took me out, you made me spend like $200 bucks....plus the jerky/Gatorade expenses! :lol8:


:roflol: :roflol:

[stefan]

We've guided Dragonfly since '98 and Tierdrop since '00. No incidents and the National Park Service has always been satisfied with our stewardship. Now, free internet beta for these two canyons is barely a month old, yet we've already seen Tierdrop Canyon's anchors get trashed (see attached photos). At least one group has pulled their ropes directly around all our rappel anchors and created major grooves and burns. Grooving the rock below the anchor is an eyesore at worse, but grooving and burning the anchor itself is a very real safety hazard for those of us who are in there day after day. Six years of guiding with over a thousand clients and no damage; now this after one month... Sigh.



i remember ryan was greatly concerned about this with the publishing of pandora's box. such is the effect of bringing canyons into the mainstream! it would seem quite useful and important (but not ensuring) for guide authors to stress specific locations prone to anchor/rope groove abuses and to educate their following with solutions (perhaps in a blatant/overstated manner) ... needless to say, this won't ensure all will follow.

[nosivad_bor]

Ya My harness is kinna pink. But it is still in excellent condition and not that old.

Seriously? I think the shelf life of a harness is like 10 years max, even if never used.

Now if you have a source for retro harnesses fess up - I'd love to sport the old school look :D

[hesse15]

hi scoutmaster,
sorry if i jump on your case , but this is a sport as we noted also recently , that does not give much room to mistakes, i think is still highr than climbing , but less than mountaneering.
so stated that is always better to go super safe.

buying a guidebook cost 19$
buying the circle of friends beta 25$

but is not only about get to a place that look nice in pictures.

some of slot canyons can provide high difficulties, and sometime is not just "rappelling"
a lot of place they do not have anchors, and you need to be proficient in create one that is safe enough to rappel down alive and second to do not leave a permanent scar in the rock when you pull your rope.

a lot of canyons are also far away of well traveled road and very difficult to perform rescues.
will be better if you read bunch of the accidents reports over the years.

beside is nice to get friends in cute new places, safety need to be always in mind.

for helmet also just a bike helmet will be better than nothing.
harness iss important to be up to date, you rely not only your life but also to everybody you borrow it

locking biner are around 10$ you can find them slightly cheaper on internet, but again is your life

shoes ,clothes,that are irrilevant, i got mine at DI and they are super.

but all the gear to wich my life depend , i spend $$$, my life is more important, i will save on other things .

so be safe and have fun :five:




I fully planned to get lots of "advice" after this experience or or I would not have posted this report. So bring it on.

Ya thats me in the picture

Helmets, I agree. we should have had them. I plan to get some.

Cheep beaners. I agree, they were just for extra protection while I hooked every one up my feet never left the ground with them. I will get rid of them.

The pack is my Camel back. I was hooked there for 2.5 hours It was nice to have some water. It was not in the way

Never at any time was any person at any additional risk than any other canyoneer passing through this canyon. I was there to be sure everyone was safe.

There are two separate sets of anchors in the wall. The two I was hooked to and two more for the rappelling rope

Ya My harness is kinna pink. But it is still in excellent condition and not that old.

[Scout Master]

Seriously? I think the shelf life of a harness is like 10 years max, even if never used.
Can anyone substantiate this with any real proof or is this a myth created to sell new harnesses?

[Alex]

It's actually a fact that ended in death. I don't remember the famous climbers name, the one who climbed everything without a rope and was one of the fastest ascenders. His videos were very popular on Youtube. Anyways, he fell about 9 years ago and one of the potential reasons behind his fall was due to an old harness that he so loved and adore.

ScoutMaster, don't take our nagging personally. All the brought up advice was for your own safety and the safety of the sport. No reason to have the routes closed and the sport getting a bad name due to someone not wanting to dish out 25 bucks on beta or too cheap to buy some basic gear (which in reality is less than $50).

Remember we all share this sport and the canyons we all go into, are very limited. One human caused mistake will cost us a lot of routes. That is the reason we nagged you. We are all selfish and want those routes to be open for our kids enjoyment :2thumbs:

[mrbrejcha]

Seriously? I think the shelf life of a harness is like 10 years max, even if never used.
Can anyone substantiate this with any real proof or is this a myth created to sell new harnesses?

I trust my harnesses and ropes, I know they're good, I've been using them for years and years! :lol8:

I'm sure it's BS but most gear manufaturers reccomend retiring soft goods after 5 years. Does the harness spontaniously combust after that? It may lose some strength, but not enough to matter unless you're taking massive whippers or something, but for body weight, it shouldn't matter too much. if the webbing feels crunchy, it's lost strength, and obviously check the stitching. You can always get more use out of gear than the maufacturer reccomends, but remmber, f you have second thoughts about the quality of something you are trusting your life to, maybe there is a reason.

[mrbrejcha]

he fell about 9 years ago and one of the potential reasons behind his fall was due to an old harness that he so loved and adore

It may lose some strength, but not enough to matter unless you're taking massive whippers or something

If your talking about Dan Osman, that was about a 1200 foot whipper. That guy new more about rope and harness limitations, fall forces and "climbing" sysytems than anyone, that's why it is scary.

[rockgremlin]

Matt-

I see your point about beta and beta sharing, and I agree with you. However, when we did Tierdrop earlier this year, we noticed rope grooves already in place in the several different locations. Other parties may have added to those, and/or created more, but that's not to say that they were never there prior to March 2007. In fact, there were some very pronounced rope grooves on the third and final rappel -- both on the lip (where most parties descend), and also burned into some large boulders on that same ledge a little farther to the east.

I hate to sound like a broken record here, but probably the only practical solution to this is education, education, education.

Those rope burns in the photos you posted are bush league. I can't understand what those folks were trying to do. The second rappel doesn't even require a sandstone arch -- there's a perfectly good set of solid cams in place under a ledge. And that rope at the 3rd rap?! :ne_nau: :nono:

[ajroadtrips]

The second rappel doesn't even require a sandstone arch -- there's a perfectly good set of solid cams in place under a ledge. And that rope at the 3rd rap?! :ne_nau: :nono:

Our experience was that the cams shift after every rappel, and should be checked and/or re-placed. Hesse and I found them badly placed, removed them, cleaned the sand out of them, and re-placed them. This is a good solution for those with climbing experience, but if your not a climber, you likely do not know how to evaluate a cam placement. I also, personally, would not want to take large groups or heavy people off those placements.

Other rocks are available to sling, but due to the angle they were sitting, we didn't feel confident in them. We did not see the arch, so I can't comment on it.

[Scout Master]

ScoutMaster, don't take our nagging personally. All the brought up advice was for your own safety and the safety of the sport. No reason to have the routes closed and the sport getting a bad name

I am definitely not taking any of this personally. I specifically wrote this TR to get "advice" and to help me move ahead in an activity I have really fallen in love with. I am quite aware I am Very old school. I have been teaching rappelling for 20 years now. I have come a long way in that time. I am also acutely aware of the responsibility I have for those who would follow me into a canyon. I made some mistakes but no one's life was ever in danger. I want to move forward with REAL and credible information so No one will ever be in danger.

By the way
As far as I can tell no grooves were made during our trip.

[Iceaxe]

yet we've already seen Tierdrop Canyon's anchors get trashed (see attached photos). At least one group has pulled their ropes directly around all our rappel anchors and created major grooves and burns.

Careful using rope burns as a reasonable argument as to why Teirdrop should remain hidden..... we uncovered the canyon because of the several hundred rope burns your guide service has left.... in fact the rope burns were so obvious and abundant that we used them as a marker in the route description.... Something to the effect of "when you see several hundred rope burns you will know you are in the correct drainage"....

The irony being.... if you had not left hundreds of rope burns we would not have found your route.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mfl/lowres/mfln130l.jpg

[Scout Master]

This Trip and subsequent Report that I did earlier this summer taught me a lot about canyons, safety and equipment. So I am posting a final addendum to this thread just to say thanks for all the good advice given and to say I did take it all very seriously.
Some comment was made about my OLD harness. Though I am not totally convinced time and use has rendered this piece of equipment unsafe. I have decided to move forward and enjoy the security and comfort of a new and more modern Harness.
http://en.petzl.com/images/Produits/Produit_Image_160.jpg
I wonder if I can get 20 years out of this one?