canyoneering ethical question

[marc olivares]

While romping through Zero Gravity on Sunday, we ran into a little ethical dilemma
and i was curious what others would do in this same situation.

as the canyon narrowed (just before the big pothole for those who have done Zero G) we scrambled over a small chock stone and Shane starts squealing like a little girl (ok, like a manly little girl... :haha: )
i was pulling up the rear, so i howler to him WTF, you ok? and he says " there's a huge eagle down here".

Seems an eagle had gotten down into the narrow section of the canyon and could not get out. what was unknown to us was whether or not the eagle was injured or simply stuck in a canyon so narrow it was unable to open it's wings out enough to fly.

so here's the dilemma: What do we do now?

do you stem over the eagle and hope it doesnt come after you?
do you abort the canyon?
do you rescue the eagle?
do you try and put the thing out of it's misery? (still undetermined if injured or not, but it can walk)

for the record, this was one huge bird, and it scared me just being as close as we were to it.
unfortunately, the 1 photo i got of it really, really sucks :frustrated:
i know what we did, how would you handle this?

[Scott P]

do you rescue the eagle?

That's what I would do, but I'm a nice guy.

[marc olivares]

do you rescue the eagle?

That's what I would do, but I'm a nice guy.

expand on this scott... how?

[Udink]

I think I'd have tried shooing the eagle away to see if it could escape the narrow bit by itself (I sure as hell wouldn't try getting too close though). Failing that, I'd stem over it, finish the canyon, and inform the DWR or some other responsible agency of its condition and location.

[Scott P]

expand on this scott... how?

I haven't done the canyon, so I don't know how the situation is. Did you have a rope with you for a lasso? I assume slings?

Is the canyon wide enough for a lasso. I know my dad and company have actually lassoed deer and coyotes out of potholes, but you have to have enough room.

[rockgremlin]

I think I'd have tried shooing the eagle away to see if it could escape the narrow bit by itself (I sure as hell wouldn't try getting too close though). Failing that, I'd stem over it, finish the canyon, and inform the DWR or some other responsible agency of its condition and location.

ditto

[Alex]

This should clear up the condition that the eagle was in....

The canyon was about 1.5-2 feett across, enough to squeeze through without taking the backpack off. The eagle was about 4-5 feet below us behind the chock stone and in the tigher spot (about a foot across). There was no way to get to the bird to hand rescue it without human injury.

[rockgremlin]

Maybe he was just canyoneering too. :haha:


So what did you guys do?

[Alex]

So what did you guys do?

...let the nature do it's best. We backpedaled, climbed out of the canyon and rapped on the other side of the keeper pothole. The decision was mutual among the leaders to avoid the human injury. Self safety is first in my opinion.

[marc olivares]

...So what did you guys do?


Alex spilled the beans to quickly, what he meant to say was:

"it's amazing how many thing taste like chicken..." :ne_nau:



ok playing devils advocate here, Scott how does one unlasso a very large, now very pissed off eagle without human injury?

[Scott P]

Scott how does one unlasso a very large, now very pissed off eagle without human injury?

That's a good question especially in a confined space. They used to catch condors (much bigger than eagles) with lasso, so I guess it can be done, but you would have to know what you were doing. Let Shane try first. Bag it might be too risky unless it was totally exhasted. Looks too narrow to lasso anyway.

Anyway, looks like you made the right call. Too bad for the eagle; hopefully it gets out of there.

[Alex]

Alex spilled the beans to quickly, what he meant to say was:


:doh: Sorry marc, didn't mean to blow the cover.

[Iceaxe]

We were not able to shoo the eagle out (we tried that one). The keeper pothole had him trapped from below and overhanging chokestones had him trapped from above (we believe). The eagle was in a section of slot where he could walk 20' from the upper chokestones to the lower keeper.

Damn he was a big bird, You don't realize how big an eagle is until one jumps out from under the chokestone you are standing on top of. And yes I screamed.... but I like to think it was just a high pitched manly scream....

We considered trying to lift the eagle out but no way in hell was anyone getting near those talons of his.

:popcorn:

[hesse15]

this must be the season
we saw 5 baby crows (20pounds each) in neon ,next weekend 1 baby crow in black hole, and the weekend after one baby howl (6 pounds) out to camp close to moab middle of nowwhere.
so that must be a baby eagle kicked out to learn how to fly.
I got the same dilemma when we got the first crow in neon.
with little creatures i usually put them in my sweater meanwhile i downclimb (lizard and chipmonk) but bigger animal are more problematic.
i think the best is trow a sort of sweater /blanket on top and try to grab them in a way that they do not bite
a baby eagle can be pretty big and intimidating

i do not get the spot where it was but if you can get 2 people off the deck solid a third can be lower down from them and get to the animal in a
safe way
i think consedering that an eagle is protected and risk of extinction , will be worthed a try
:ne_nau:

We were not able to shoo the eagle out (we tried that one). The keeper pothole had him trapped from below and overhanging chokestones had him trapped from above (we believe). The eagle was in a section of slot where he could walk 20' from the upper chokestones to the lower keeper.

Damn he was a big bird, You don't realize how big an eagle is until one jumps out from under the chokestone you are standing on top of. And yes I screamed.... but I like to think it was just a high pitched manly scream....

We considered trying to lift the eagle out but no way in hell was anyone getting near those talons of his.

:popcorn:

[marc olivares]

...a baby eagle can be pretty big and intimidating...

Cri,
this was no "baby" eagle, that would have been a different situation, i think...?
this was a full grown, very pissed off eagle

[Iceaxe]

so that must be a baby eagle kicked out to learn how to fly.

This was no baby eagle, it was a full grown adult. I'm guessing he stood 2' tall and had a wing span of 6'.... and his talons looked lethal.

[Alex]

We threw rocks at it to try to have it move down the slot for us to be lowered and do something about it, but the damn bird did NOT move at all. I mean not even a slight movement. When Ice threw a small rock right at it, it lifted it's leg for the rock to fall through. I think a baby eagle would have jumped/moved to avoid a flying object, this beast just sat there in a staring contest with us. And yes, he definitely won that contest, 4 big guys backed down and went around. :cool2:

[CarpeyBiggs]

We threw rocks at it....

So much for an ethical dilemma, eh? :roflol: :roflol: Nothing like stoning a helpless eagle.

"Dude, Ice, use this rock, it's huge man. I guarantee it'll scare the shit outta that dumbass eagle."

This picture is starting to get more and more clear. :popcorn:

[Alex]

Truth be told, we couldn't find a big enough rock to put it out of its misery! :twisted:

[Iceaxe]

We threw rocks at it to try to have it move down the slot

We threw small pebbles.... and after I bounced one off his back and he didn't fly or run away we went to Plan B.

Actually after I bounced one off his back he looked at me like I might make a nice snack if I didn't move along to Plan B. :eat:

[stefan]

holy smokes!


yeah, i think alerting someone who deals with such birds

[Alex]

We threw [i]small pebbles....

Ya, they were totally small pebbles comparing them to the BIRD BEAST that was below us!

[hesse15]

hei if they gave me a free ride and pay the gas i will go.
big leather elbow lenght gloves a pair of workshp gaggles a big conforter from DI , and i think you can take it out safely...
trowing rocks.... :frustrated: :nono:
why you just did not stem over?
:haha:
my bigger problem will be with a fox or a skunk,because of disease and the smell in the second case




holy smokes!


yeah, i think alerting someone who deals with such birds

[Alex]

hesse, you had to be there, we definitely thought about stemming across, but the drop down would put us RIGHT next to the eagle. It wasn't worth the risk.

[Iceaxe]

Hey... if someone feels they can go down and successfully rescue the eagle I'll be happy to pay for gas.... he is not hard to locate, 10 feet before the semi-keeper in Zero-G. But this is going to be far more difficult then reaching down with a pair of leather gloves...... you will be working in an 18" wide slot, in the dark, with a wild animal that has razor blades strapped to its feet.

My feelings (past and present) is this is a nature issue and will resolve itself in short order as mother nature intended. We considered many options at the time and voted to not interfere.

The one possible solution I now think might work is to weight the end of a rope, drop it next to the eagle and then anchor the other end above the chokestone. This might allow the eagle to walk out on a tightrope under its own power. But I'm also feeling the eagle was pretty weak because other then its initial burst of energy (and my manly squeal) it didn't really move much.

:popcorn:

[marc olivares]

i've got the next few day off, i'll gladly drive and guide anyone down there if they can come up w/ a better way to resolve this.

i did try to call the hanksville BLM on monday morning, but was unable to get through.

[Alex]

Hesse, I'd take marc's offer up. You'd get to drive in the super duper Land Rover! :slobber: eclipsee_steering :cool2:

[montanablur]

My feelings (past and present) is this is a nature issue and will resolve itself in short order as mother nature intended. We considered many options at the time and voted to not interfere.


Have to agree with you on this one.

[marc olivares]

ok, so after i've posted this
it got to thinking maybe the bird can be saved...?

so i called the Utah Department of Wildlife
well they said call Wild Life Services
then they said call Utah Fish and Wildlife
then they said call the local Hanksville Game Warden
who then game me the number of a woman in Price who apparently deals w/ this kind of issue. so i called her and i'm still waiting for her to call me back.

i'd never thought i'd do guilt over a stupid bird :frustrated:

we see if she calls me back
if so, i may be taking Shanes gas card back down to the Swell... :haha:

[Iceaxe]

we see if she calls me back if so, i may be taking Shanes gas card back down to the Swell... :haha:

What the heck.... I'd just waste the money on booze and women anyways....

:five:

[Wasatch]

Looks like another skunk (Eagle) rescue, like in Birch Hollow a few years ago. Good Luck, Stay Safe.

[oldno7]

we see if she calls me back if so, i may be taking Shanes gas card back down to the Swell... :haha:

What the heck.... I'd just waste the money on booze and women anyways....

:five:
Waste????? :ne_nau:

[marc olivares]

OK SHANE!

pony up that card #

i talked to a woman at the 2nd chance wildlife rehab and it looks like she and i are gonna go get us some BIRD!

i sent her the photo that Alex took, and she seems to think it's a female red tailed Hawk.
her plan is to send me down w/ a blanket and some gloves and cuddle w/ the damn thing... :ne_nau:

anyone else want to join me?

[Alex]

OMG marc that is nuts man, when are you heading out?

[CarpeyBiggs]

OK SHANE!

pony up that card #

i talked to a woman at the 2nd chance wildlife rehab and it looks like she and i are gonna go get us some BIRD!

i sent her the photo that Alex took, and she seems to think it's a female red tailed Hawk.
her plan is to send me down w/ a blanket and some gloves and cuddle w/ the damn thing... :ne_nau:

anyone else want to join me?

:roflol: Good for you man. That's wild. I'd go, but I can't leave until Thursday afternoon...

[marc olivares]

well i get off work at 1:00am,
go home catch a few hours of sleep and head out about 7:00-ish

come on Alex, you know you want to come :haha:
Shane will buy us that luch we missed at Rays....right Shane!!!

[Alex]

OK SHANE!

pony up that card #

i talked to a woman at the 2nd chance wildlife rehab and it looks like she and i are gonna go get us some BIRD!

i sent her the photo that Alex took, and she seems to think it's a female red tailed Hawk.
her plan is to send me down w/ a blanket and some gloves and cuddle w/ the damn thing... :ne_nau:

anyone else want to join me?

So are you planning to actually rap to the bird? Would you rap from the same place we went down? I don't remember any anchors at the spot over the bird...

[Alex]

well i get off work at 1:00am,
go home catch a few hours of sleep and head out about 7:00-ish

come on Alex, you know you want to come :haha:
Shane will buy us that luch we missed at Rays....right Shane!!!

Damn dude, if we are back by 4pm I might take you up on it....

[marc olivares]

i honestly dont know what we're gonna do.... the thing scares the hell out of me. i may just squeel like Shane and wet myself?

[stefan]

damn dood!

may the force be with you

[Alex]

Woohoo it's a road trip! Off to save the damn bird! :roflol:

anyone else? :rockon:

[montanablur]

:popcorn:

I love it!!!

[mrabe1979]

sounds like a job for uncle Eddie from Christmas vacation. :lol8:
:popcorn:

[nosivad_bor]

show it who's boss marc and don't take any shit like last time.

[Scott P]

I wish you luck and hope you are successful. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

Hell... didn't I already mention this solution..... "Hey, Marc.... you climb down in the slot and grab the bird and climb out".

I'm just trying to figure out why this idea sounded better coming from a stranger? :ne_nau: :haha:

If you haven't left yet swing by and I'll give you a gas card. Or swing by on the way home and I'll at least fill up the Lifestyle for ya. Or I'd be happy to pay for all the gas on our next trip.... whatever works for you.

Easiest way to reach the Hawk would be to take the short cut to the Swimming Pool that I showed you guys. Easy to find and get in that way.

Good Luck
:2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

Wow, this is crazy! I hope you're not off to recover a carcass! Best of luck. If I had the time I would prolly do the same thing.

:popcorn:

[LJ]

Hey Marc - good luck!


:hail2thechief: :popcorn: :hail2thechief:

[CarpeyBiggs]

Wow, this is crazy! I hope you're not off to recover a carcass! Best of luck. If I had the time I would prolly do the same thing.

:popcorn:

If you had the time, you should probably announce the where is it contest, sucka. :haha:

[rockgremlin]

If you had the time, you should probably announce the where is it contest, sucka. :haha:


:lol8: I promised to post it today "sometime," and I shall deliver.

Look for it sometime this evening.... :popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

I just hope Marc remembers to give the bird lady his camera so we can get some action shots of him getting owned. :haha:

Male Red-tailed Hawks weigh 1.5 to 2.9 pounds and measure 18 to 22 in, while females weigh between 2 and 4.4 pounds and measure 20 to 26 in. The Red-tailed Hawk displays sexual dimorphism in size, as females are 25% larger than males. The wingspan is from 43 to 57 in.

:popcorn:

[montanablur]

I'm sure these will be good stories...

If only hawks could talk...

[gonzo]

Holy crap. If that bird lady doesn't take pictures I'm gonna be disappointed. (But, not nearly as disappointed as I am at myself for being at work, and not checking that thing out myself).

[asdf]

This thread has been a great read. I agree we need pics and the rest of the story.

[Alex]

:cry: I will let marc tell the story :frustrated:

[CarpeyBiggs]

C'mon Marc. We're waiting. Where's the story????

[oldgator]

:thumb:

Nice deposit in the 'ole Karma bank

great pics!


Dan

[nosivad_bor]

I waited up all night refreshing the screen waiting for a promised TR and nothing. :(

I'm going to bed now

-Rob

[hesse15]

damn from your faces must not be any good
that is so sad :cry1:


:cry: I will let marc tell the story :frustrated:

[Alex]

http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7346

Sorry guys, I kept waiting for marc to kick in with his story, but couldn't wait. He has better pics than me so I hope he will post them soon. Enjoy! :2thumbs:

[hesse15]

I am so elated now
first thing i did as soon i was at the computer was checking the story,
:cheers: :clap: :D :rockit: :party:


http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7346

Sorry guys, I kept waiting for marc to kick in with his story, but couldn't wait. He has better pics than me so I hope he will post them soon. Enjoy! :2thumbs: