What happened in Heaps Canyon??

[Scott P]

Check out the NPS site:

https://zionpermits.nps.gov/backcountry.cfm?TripTypeID=3

What happend??

[Iceaxe]

:ne_nau:

Heaps Canyon:
Heaps Canyon has been closed for the following reason(s):
Condition: Closed due to an investigation.
However, you can continue to make reservations at your own risk.

[Iceaxe]

From a very reliable source.... A rappelling fatality at the final rappel (Emerald Pools) yesterday. More info to come....

[Scott P]

Dang, that's very bad news. :sad:

[Iceaxe]

I hate that rappel more then any other. It scares the snot out of me and has been the cause of several nasty accidents.... and the worst part is I'm afraid there will be more.

[price1869]

.... and the worst part is I'm afraid there will be more.

Not if they close the canyon. :eek2:

[Iceaxe]

Not if they close the canyon. :eek2:

Thats the other part I'm afraid might happen.... Judging from the latest backcountry plan canyoneers are not really liked or wanted by Zion management.

[Scott P]

Especially concerning since there has already been speculations of that due to the fact that the last rap is into the popular tourist areas of Emerald Pools.

[hesse15]

Not if they close the canyon. :eek2:

Thats the other part I'm afraid might happen.... Judging from the latest backcountry plan canyoneers are not really liked or wanted by Zion management.



Any more new of how it happened?
do they rap past the last rap station?
wrong end of the rope?
super sad, 90 meter drop usually does not leave much chance of survival.
my condolence to the family of this poor person.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Not if they close the canyon. :eek2:

Thats the other part I'm afraid might happen.... Judging from the latest backcountry plan canyoneers are not really liked or wanted by Zion management.

Remember, those meetings are scheduled for tonight and tomorrow night... Not to take away from the significance of the accident, but it comes at an unfortunate time.

I personally hate to be thinking about those kinds of things, given the fact that a family is now forever changed, but the thought did come to mind.

[rockgremlin]

From a very reliable source.... A rappelling fatality at the final rappel (Emerald Pools) yesterday. More info to come....

Howcome this didn't make local news? Usually fatalities in ZNP make headline news. :ne_nau:

[CarpeyBiggs]

From a very reliable source.... A rappelling fatality at the final rappel (Emerald Pools) yesterday. More info to come....

Howcome this didn't make local news? Usually fatalities in ZNP make headline news. :ne_nau:

I agree... I'm hoping it wasn't truly a fatality, since we haven't heard much. It is possible though, that it happened late last night, so the word is still yet to get out. Let's hope for the best...

[Bo_Beck]

From a very reliable source.... A rappelling fatality at the final rappel (Emerald Pools) yesterday. More info to come....

Howcome this didn't make local news? Usually fatalities in ZNP make headline news. :ne_nau:

Pending Investigation Maybe?

[Iceaxe]

I've had my eye on the news wires but nothing yet....

I'm thinking the news service just has not sniffed it out as of yet. The Spectrum has a reporter who is pretty sharp and usually all over this type of stuff... must be his day off or maybe he has not come back from coffee yet?

:ne_nau:

[rockgremlin]

Ya, I've been searching around too, but nothing has come up about ZNP.

Here's hoping it's NOT a fatality.

[Scott Card]

Ahhhhhh CRAP! :frustrated: I am supposed to be in Heaps on Friday. I did just get off the phone with the Backcountry Desk and they said it was an "Administrative Closure" but the guy guessed that Heaps would be open by Friday. I hope so. I hate to hear things like this on so many levels. I hope no one is seriously hurt but it doesn't sound good right now. All I know is that if my wife gets a hold of this information I may be banished from Heaps this weekend.

[nelsonccc]

All I know is that if my wife gets a hold of this information I may be banished from Heaps this weekend.

Same here. We're going in on the 30th. If she finds out I might die she'll likely say fine but up your life insurance and leave that cute friend of your's phone number. :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

up your life insurance and leave that cute friend of your's phone number. :lol8:

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[tanya]

You guys are quick to find things out! Bo is in Heaps now and will help with the investigation. He cannot usually say anything until it hits the news or the park issues a memo. He said he will probably be gone about 48 hours.

[bruce from bryce]

Just called the Spectrum and they are working on a story. Will be online soon.

[Scott P]

You guys are quick to find things out!

The only reason I found out something was amiss is because I tried to get a permit.

[Alex]

You guys are quick to find things out! Bo is in Heaps now and will help with the investigation. He cannot usually say anything until it hits the news or the park issues a memo. He said he will probably be gone about 48 hours.

Come on Tanya!, were you born yesterday???? That's why we have this forum here:

http://uutah.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=53

Honestly....

[tanya]

You guys are quick to find things out! Bo is in Heaps now and will help with the investigation. He cannot usually say anything until it hits the news or the park issues a memo. He said he will probably be gone about 48 hours.

Come on Tanya!, were you born yesterday???? That's why we have this forum here:

http://uutah.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=53

Honestly....

:oops:

[bruce from bryce]

Not good news. Condolences to the family.


Canyoneering fatality at Zion National Park
By PATRICE ST. GERMAIN
patrices@thespectrum.com

ZION NATIONAL PARK

[adrians]

FYI

ZION NATIONAL PARK

[Alex]

http://www.northwashoutfitters.com/advancedcourse.htm

Eek, look at the bottom of the page.....

[Iceaxe]

Killed in the accident was Keith Beidermann of Garden Grove, Calif.

This really sucks...

[Scott Card]

My condolences to the family. Sad day. Gratefully, this hardly ever happens in this sport. Be safe out there.

[price1869]

http://www.northwashoutfitters.com/advancedcourse.htm

Eek, look at the bottom of the page.....

Edit: Wasn't meant to mean.

Sorry to hear. Condolences to the family.

Price

[Iceaxe]

Gratefully, this hardly ever happens in this sport.

I hate to say this.... but for the extremely small number of folks participating in this sport the fatality rate seems pretty high to me... barely two years ago we lost two in Choprock. And was it last year one in Behunin...

This is not a forgiving sport.

.

[Scott P]

I hate to say this.... but for the extremely small number of folks participating in this sport the fatality rate seems pretty high to me... barely two years ago we lost two in Choprock. And was it last year one in Behunin...

I agree. There have been a lot of deaths for such a small sport. If you count the tourist canyons fatilities in Europe and Antelope due to flash floods, the numbers are even higher, but not the ratio.

Anyway, the news gets worse. This was popular canyons group member desertres group. He request waiting before speculation and rumors start. The post is below.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/37647

Sad, very sad.

[Win]

This is very sad, my condolences to his family. A sad day for all of us that enjoy outdoor Utah.

Win

[bruce from bryce]

Hey Price that was a pretty cold comment.

ICE: please elaborate on the death in Behunin. I guess I missed it the first time around. thx.

[sparker1]

Sorry to hear this.

[stefan]

Hey Price that was a pretty cold comment.


a pretty cold comment indeed ... straight up callous.

[Iceaxe]

ICE: please elaborate on the death in Behunin. I guess I missed it the first time around. thx.

So I missed by a few years.... it sure doesn't seem like 4 years ago....

Canyoneering Fatality -Zion NP
NPS Morning Report
September 10, 2003

On Friday, September 5th, Christopher Frankewicz, 37, of Springdale, fell while descending through Behunin Canyon, a rugged canyoneering route that involves route finding, numerous rappels, and normally takes about eight hours. Frankewicz was traveling alone and intended to complete the trip in one day. Friends reported him overdue late Friday evening, and a ground search was begun early on Saturday morning. In late morning, a helicopter joined the search. Frankewicz

[rockgremlin]

DAMN!!! This is not good!

Many, many condolences to his family.

I had planned to do Heaps later this summer.......currently reconsidering.

[Iceaxe]

Press Release
Canyoneering Fatality in Zion National Park

Date: June 5, 2007
Contact: David Eaker, 435-772-7811
Contact: Ron Terry, 435-772-0160

Keith Beidermann, 48, of Garden Grove, California, fell to his death while canyoneering in Heaps Canyon in Zion National Park on Monday evening, June 4. The fatality is currently under investigation by the Washington County Sheriff

[oldno7]

very sorry to hear this,condolences to those there and family.

so it was heaps not behunin.

[FOX]

I had planned to do Heaps later this summer.......currently reconsidering.

Ditto...

I wonder if a bolt(s) blew out on him? What a terrifying way to go. My condolences to his family as well.

[Bo_Beck]

Just called the Spectrum and they are working on a story. Will be online soon.

Hmmmm? Wonder if it will be reported as another "Climbing Accident"?
Can they say "Biner Block" or "Contingency Anchor"? Will be interesting to find out how it happened, but then It's sad it happened at all.

[Bo_Beck]

You guys are quick to find things out!

The only reason I found out something was amiss is because I tried to get a permit.

You can get your permit now. Its opened back up.

[tanya]

You guys are quick to find things out!

The only reason I found out something was amiss is because I tried to get a permit.

You can get your permit now. Its opened back up.


Did you have to go through Heaps?

[tanya]

Just called the Spectrum and they are working on a story. Will be online soon.

Hmmmm? Wonder if it will be reported as another "Climbing Accident"?
Can they say "Biner Block" or "Contingency Anchor"? Will be interesting to find out how it happened, but then It's sad it happened at all.

What does that mean?

[rockgremlin]

I wonder how it happened. We may never know for sure, but my thinking is that it was late, he was tired from doing the entire canyon up to that point, it was dark, he was rigging his rappel by headlamp and tied into the pull cord instead of the load strand.

Or the rope which may have already been core-shot just snapped. I don't think the bolts failed.

I'm really bummed about this whole thing...very tragic.

[Bo_Beck]

You guys are quick to find things out!

The only reason I found out something was amiss is because I tried to get a permit.

You can get your permit now. Its opened back up.


Did you have to go through Heaps?

No. Went to UE Pool and spent 8 hours with a spotting scope, megaphone and camera. A group coming down helped us out with what I would have accomplished had I had to hike Heaps. Made for a much easier, less time consuming ordeal.

[Bo_Beck]

Just called the Spectrum and they are working on a story. Will be online soon.

Hmmmm? Wonder if it will be reported as another "Climbing Accident"?
Can they say "Biner Block" or "Contingency Anchor"? Will be interesting to find out how it happened, but then It's sad it happened at all.

What does that mean?

I guess as a climber, I took offense to the multitudes of stories run about "Canyoneers" being described as climbers. Several stories run in the past stated "Climber injured or killed in Zion", when in reality it was a "rapelling" accident by a "Canyoneer". Very big difference other than the end result of such a fall.

[price1869]

No. Went to UE Pool and spent 8 hours with a spotting scope, megaphone and camera. A group coming down helped us out with what I would have accomplished had I had to hike Heaps. Made for a much easier, less time consuming ordeal.

So can you give us any info? It wasn't the bolts, was it?

[Wasatch]

[quote=bruce from bryce]ICE: please elaborate on the death in Behunin. I guess I missed it the first time around. thx.

So I missed by a few years.... it sure doesn't seem like 4 years ago....

Canyoneering Fatality -Zion NP
NPS Morning Report
September 10, 2003

On Friday, September 5th, Christopher Frankewicz, 37, of Springdale, fell while descending through Behunin Canyon, a rugged canyoneering route that involves route finding, numerous rappels, and normally takes about eight hours. Frankewicz was traveling alone and intended to complete the trip in one day. Friends reported him overdue late Friday evening, and a ground search was begun early on Saturday morning. In late morning, a helicopter joined the search. Frankewicz

[Iceaxe]

very sorry to hear this,condolences to those there and family. so it was heaps not behunin.

Sorry to confuse you.... The Heaps accident happened Monday (2007) the Behunin accident happened in 2003. I just posted the Behunin report because someone asked for details about it.

[Bo_Beck]

No. Went to UE Pool and spent 8 hours with a spotting scope, megaphone and camera. A group coming down helped us out with what I would have accomplished had I had to hike Heaps. Made for a much easier, less time consuming ordeal.

So can you give us any info? It wasn't the bolts, was it?

Unfortunately I'm not allowed to elaborate any further at this point, but rest assured that the 4 bolt anchor system equalized with a cordelette to a focal anchor point with 2 screwlinks appear to be in fine condition? Heaps permits are obtainable now. The water level is quite low necessitating pack tosses, partner assists and beach whale slithers.

[Scott P]

Thanks for the info Bo.

No matter how it happened, a horrible tradgedy none the less. My prayers go out to the families.

[Brian in SLC]

This was posted on another website:

"heard they were rapping a single line with a biner block at the anchor, last guy pulled the biner and relied on a knot block which pulled through either the quicklink or bolt hangers themselves when midway down. Got the info from my co-worker at the outfitting shop here in Springdale."

I can't imagine. Wonder if the pull cords busted when the connecting knot hit the rapides? Or maybe he was over half way down...

Gives me a cold chill to even think about.

Tragic. My condolences to friends and family.

-Brian in SLC

[Wasatch]

Why would they/he remove the biner? Does not make sense to me. :ne_nau:

[rockgremlin]

Why would they/he remove the biner? Does not make sense to me. :ne_nau:

good question

[Brian in SLC]

Why would they/he remove the biner? Does not make sense to me. :ne_nau:

We'll probably never know for sure.

Could have been hanging up and looked bad, from a rope pull standpoint.

I know some folks really dislike rappelling off a clove hitch on the spine of a carabiner. I usually prefer a knot block for some stuff. But, I typically clip a biner on a bite back to the rappel line, as a back up. That'd make the rope pull pretty darn hard on Heaps, though.

Also wonder if the smaller rapide isn't there anymore (seems like there used to be a 5/16" one there, in combo with a 3/8" one). Might be a bunch of biners that would fit through a large rapide, too, if oriented in the right position.

Yikes...

-Brian in SLC

[Scott P]

Why would they/he remove the biner? Does not make sense to me.

Could have been lots of reasons. Maybe another one was needed for extra friction on a leg loop. Maybe one was used to hang a pack. Maybe they were worried of the biner getting hung up on the pull (there is a bush there).

Anyway, this thread seems to be headed towards the rumor and speculation catagory. Maybe best to wait for the report.

[rockgremlin]

Anyway, this thread seems to be headed towards the rumor and speculation catagory. Maybe best to wait for the report.

And that brings me to another question...why the lengthy investigation? Typically when someone falls off Angel's Landing, or drowns in a flash flood, it hits the presses immediately...unless there is some suspicion of foul play. Or even when there's suspicion of foul play (like when that one guy "didn't push his pregnant wife off of Angel's Landing.") So why all of the hush hush over this incident? It still hasn't hit the local news yet.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Anyway, this thread seems to be headed towards the rumor and speculation category. Maybe best to wait for the report.

I concur. The two individuals in the party have asked that we refrain from speculation, and they have said they will give us full details in due time. No sense in speculating, at this point. Plus, I believe the whole matter has been handled very respectfully up to this point, and I'd hate to see it go downhill.



And that brings me to another question...why the lengthy investigation? Typically when someone falls off Angel's Landing, or drowns in a flash flood, it hits the presses immediately...unless there is some suspicion of foul play. Or even when there's suspicion of foul play (like when that one guy "didn't push his pregnant wife off of Angel's Landing.") So why all of the hush hush over this incident? It still hasn't hit the local news yet.

A quick google news check shows 5 or 6 unique outlets picked it up yesterday, including the Spectrum, SLTrib, KUTV, and ABC4, and the OC Register, where the guy was from.

Hopefully, the NPS is keeping the information under wraps, so they don't have to deal with the media frenzy we've seen at other locations in similar situations (Mt. Hood, comes to mind...)

I am glad to see it so hush-hush.

[Brian in SLC]

From another website:

"From an email (second hand, not received directly from the author)
For anyone who is interested in the accident which happened the other night in Heaps canyon, I think that I might be able to shed a little light on the subject. My party and I were the first group to go down Heaps the morning after the accident. We didn't even know there had been an accident, however, as we descended the first of the last three rappels a ranger with a mega phone called up to us and told about the tragedy. They sent up a camera so we could take pictures of the anchors. The anchors looked bomber. The only abnormality was a pear shaped locking biner attached to one of the rappel rings. After all three in our party had made the final rappel we talked to the ranger about the accident. He said that it looks like the deceased had tried to make a biner block. When they arrived on the scene they found his body still tied into this three hundred foot rope and six feet above him there was a biner tied to his rope with a clove hitch. The current hypothesis is this: instead of running the rope through the rappel rings he ran it through the locking biner, and when he weighted the rope, the biner pulled through the locking biner which was larger than the biner he used for the biner block. However, there are several questions still unanswered. We don't know if the group had head lamps. It was somewhere between 10:30 and 11:00 when he fell. Maybe in the dark something went wrong that could better explain the situation. Also, when the rangers got to the scene, the 300 foot rope was not attached to the two 200 foot tag ropes. Maybe one of his partners was supposed to weight the tag line and one of the knots attaching the ropes came loose. However, the rangers don't think this is the case after interviewing the other members in his party. At any case, there does not appear to have been any equipment failure that resulted in the accident."

-Brian in SLC

[rockgremlin]

That sheds a lot of light on the situation. Thanks Brian.

Be careful out there!!

[Scott P]

Destres (Group leader) has posted the story.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/37735

What a tradgedy. Sad.

Hi again,

Let me start off with a photo of Keith....

http://www.canyoneering.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/770/limit/recent

Ok, so first off not enough can be said for the overwhelming support of so many canyoneers but also it was just amazing the kudos for the park service and people..just beyond words....I know you have all helped me so much.

I know there are many people with a hole in their heart so I thought its time to release the Q&A:

Q: What happened?
A: Keith freefell over 260ft(most likely 270+)to his death

Q: Explain
A: User error - rigging - biner block failure - rope run through large carabiner used for lowering blocked by much smaller Petzl Attache.

Q: Go on.....
A: Well Keith was the last person down the final rappel in Heaps. I was the first...lowered...then finally the rap to the bottom to retrieve the brand new Imlay 8mm 300ft rope...there was a significant delay on my descent from the end of the rap rope being stuck and then released but being thrown on top of me resulting in 30-45 mins of tied off massive knot undoings...I attached the rope for raising via a water knot with a radio communication(incl to be replaced)...it was dark and the remaining two had working safe headlamps.

The rope was rigged,I then took off all my stuff off my harness save for my large rescue steel carabiner. I then was attached to the rope, although not "onrope"..basically I didnt think a firemans belay was safe enough for the next descender.

The next descender descended on the system Keith went on and it was very eventful, but not as far as the rigging.

Final sequence:

Adonis to Keith: "...lost control..not injured...Keith - recheck the system....this is it..but we have as much time as you need, if you want to take 2 hours to rest or whatever so be it"

Keith:"Im fine..."
Adonis: "Ive changed from a loose attachment belay to a munter hitch bottom belay with about 5ft of slack."
Keith :"Why?"
Adonis: "Had too much diffuculty with the belay...(person) almost died...

Keith:"On rappel"
Adonis:"Roger that"
......
Keith:"Too much..Adonis release more slack"
Adonis:"Well, alright then"
Keith:"I know what Im doing(as opposed to the previous descender)..let it out.....

I then was on a very loose bottom belay and radioed that. Moments later Keith fell to his death.

...

The only scenario that makes any sense based upon the evidence, is that Keith started the rap(ATC with leg munter hitch(rope runs through ATC then munter on carbiner attached to leg portion of harness)), then tied off(rope wrapped around both legs) with the slack to address the pull cord side thus unweighting the rope and allowing the Attache to move to slip out. I was told that the carpet on Heaps(which was attached via a sling)had been cut away by the 2nd descender. It wasnt on the last conditions report but this should be verified as I think I heard some real reliable info...anyways Keith was untying the waterknot, and as soon as the two ropes were unjoined the system was somehow weighted, the Attache pulled through. Just before that, there was a loss of control on the rope, I was going like mad to tighten the system, but before that could even happen, the rappel rope started to fall(I knew immediately it was a biner block failure), I looked at the pull cord which was someways away from me and it wasnt moving up, Keith died downhill of me and the rest of the rope fell on top of me.

The above info will be the basis of the explaination(with a more easier way of explaining it) given to the surviving family ..and has been reviewed endlessly by everyone.

I received the final verdict late that day after I posted the first time, as I am still totally mystified why the rope was not run through a rapide, and will carry to my grave if I was upthere Keith would be alive..but then..anyways I know of the support, but just dont want people to think that Im cavalier about it. I am quitting canyoneering, but will remain to help if I can the canyoneering community reconcile it or whatever, but take heed: Any talk of Keith being an "inexperienced Choprock style descender" assault will be firecely derided.

Eventually I will write a trip report but it may be a little rambling so bear with me.

Oh also, I am not on the other boards per say, so I havent read anything but the canyoneering.net and this one but will do so...

Based upon the family reception to when I talk to them next, I will see if what in the way of condolences, etc...I can only tell you I was basically the one who broke the news to them that Tuesday early morning and they need time.

[marc olivares]

Just before that, there was a
loss of control on the rope, I was going like mad to tighten the
system, but before that could even happen, the rappel rope started to
fall(I knew immediately it was a biner block failure), I looked at
the
pull cord which was someways away from me and it wasnt moving up,
Keith
died downhill of me and the rest of the rope fell on top of me.




wow, reading this made my heart drop.... what a horrible feeling this must have been for Desertres.
i'm saddened for what he must be feeling now.

[rockgremlin]

Unbelieveably tragic. Very sad to hear.

Condolences to Kieth's family and all involved.

[price1869]

anyways Keith was untying the waterknot,

Why would he untie the rope? and what was the pull cord tied to if it didn't go up as the rope came down?

[Iceaxe]

Other than that is not a typical knot used for a pull chord I have no clue. Probably just want to be certain his ropes pulled.

One Item I do make a slight objection to is the reference to the Choprock death's being unskilled..... Don't make the mistake of believing that just because a group does not hang out on the canyon forums and flies under the radar that they are unskilled or inexperienced. The kids killed in Choprock probably had as much experience as the Heaps group. Given the beta the kids in Chop had and their previous experience in Neon the year before they figure they had things covered.... the Choprock death's were a miscalculation.... which is what I'm also seeing here with the Heaps accident.... Canyoneering is not a sport that penalizes big mistakes with a loss of 15 yard and two free throws.

And the only reason I really mention this is because thinking you are smarter then the last guy is just asking for trouble.

Food for thought...

[tanya]

Very Sad....

[mrabe1979]

Canyoneering is not a sport that penalizes big mistakes with a loss of 15 yard and two free throws.

Good point, but injuries and death's have occurred in team sports as well!
anyways my deepest condolences to family and friends..

[smcqueen]

I do hope that a better-defined cause of the accident comes out. While it is extremely sad to lose one of our community, and of course a tragedy for the family, it is even sadder not to be able to learn from such incidents. That is the lesson of the aviation industry, where each accident and incident are analyzed for root causes and lessons learned that can be applied to the future.

I just today received my NSS Cave Accidents Report for 2004-5. I always read each accident and incident report with an eye to attempting to learn how I can be safer in the future. One thing that the authors of the report recommend that I have been known to ignore is to require a belay whenever the exposure is greater than a body length. Another is to require everyone to be tied-in whenever they are closer than a body length to the lip. After Keith's accident, I'll be a little more diligent about such things in the future.

In the NSS report, there are always several reports of rappelling out of control, getting stuck on a rope, etc., but seldom are there reports of rigging failures. Of course, the notion of biner blocks, contingency anchors, releasable anchors, etc., are virtually unknown in caving, since you almost always ascend back up the rope rather than pull it down. I think in 20+ years of caving I only did one through trip where we pulled the rope and exited out another entrance. So our sport of canyoneering adds an additional dimension of risk to the rope work.

[CarpeyBiggs]

There is a lot more details being discussed on the e-group. Hayduke, who was the second person to descend, has posted his recollection of the event. Truly tragic.

I just rigged up a similar setup from the floorboards in my basement, and tried rigging a biner block to an attache with a pearabiner clipped through the rapide. Simply weighting the pull cord rotated the biner block and sent the attache through the pearabiner every time I tried it. Very scary stuff.

I too hope we can all learn from this situation, I know it has certainly been eye-opening for me.

Here is his post, from the egroup. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/37769

I may be able to shed some more light on the subject, if anyone has questions, please ask.

First let me properly introduce myself. My name is Eric Leifer, 21, a 4th year Environmental Science and Philosophy major at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff, Arizona. I have been canyoneering for three years now, being both a leader and follower on dozens of trips.

Adonis' description of the final rap sequence is a bit skewed from how I would describe it, including the radio communication. Apparently I almost died...I do not believe this is the case. I was heading down in pitch black at a reasonable fast pace to get it over with, when I suddenly noticed the ground was about 20 feet below me. I was definitely coming in hot but was ready to land, I WAS under my own control. I tried to come to a stop but I was only able to slow myself down a bit in the three second notice I had. Thankfully adonis brought my to a safer halt.

I spent nearly an hour up at the bird's perch with Keith, we thought everything was set. It was dark, Keith was noticeably exhausted. I still felt pretty good, considering the situation. The mood was grim. We spoke very little. I could feel something was not right. Radio communication with Adonis was difficult, he kept cutting out and we could not understand him very well. Miscommunication is a very real and likely possibility. It was Keith's decision to cut the carpet, all we saw was a piece of webbing hanging down that was interfering with our rope work.

It is difficult for me to write about this, for it hits quite close to home. I have been on several trips with Keith and have gotten to know him well, and considered him a friend. This is something that should never happen, but it is one of those inherent risks that we all know is a possibility, yet we don't really think about it. Yet it is this very same risk that drives us to do such things; it is the challenge of cheating death and overcoming obstacles that drives us. It is tragic that Keith has paid the ultimate price for the rest of us. It is a reality check, really, starkly showing us that this like this can and do happen.

But to try and somehow put a positive spin on it, Keith died doing what he loved; I am comforted in the thought that on his final day on this earth, he was happy. He has told me many times that he comes to the canyons not for the rappels, not for the risk and not to prove himself, but to come see and stand in awe at the incredible beauty of the places we choose to explore. I know that he, more than anyone, appreciated the beauty of the natural world, and understood. For this reason I can find closure and acceptance, for he died in one of the single most beautiful places in the world, doing what he loved. I don't think he would've wanted it any other way. It is among the same walls that he loved so much, which finally took his life.

Be safe and live your life to the fullest, because you simply never know when it will end.

Sincerely,
Eric

[moabfool]

I'm trying to figure out how to say this while maintaining sensitivity for the deceased. With every tragedy comes the opportunity to learn a lesson. I think one lesson to be learned from this is to never use a biner block when the rope has been run through another biner. The hole is just too big. Rappel rings and quicklinks (aka. rapidlinks, aka. rapides) are the only equipment from which a biner block should be rigged. Even a large quicklink will kill you using this setup. The quicklink at the top of Mystery Falls is too large for a biner block! I noticed this in the autumn of '05 when I was rigging my rappel. I got messing with the setup before putting weight on it. The biner and clove hitch slid right through! Considering the flock of newbies I was shepherding through, the results could've been disasterous.

Also, consider backing up the biner block, especially on high PFF (Penalty For Failure) rappels. Here's what Tom Jones (ratagonia) says about setting up biner blocks. Notice his backup techniques.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/tech/blocks.php

[hank moon]

The quicklink at the top of Mystery Falls is too large for a biner block!

It sure is - needs removal - bad. Maybe I can get the park to permit me to do it even if the canyon's "full" - taking a wrench and hacksaw...unless someone beats me to it.

Anyone planning Mystery this weekend?

hank

[Iceaxe]

Yeah... I've been thinking that many of the current practices used by canyoneers should be reviewed. I've been following the Heaps accident discussion on some of the climbing forums and those guys are just rolling their eyes at some of the things we do.

Also.... I thinking it might be good standard practice to use a safety as pictured in Tom's tech tips, and after the safety is removed to have someone down below tie into the retrieval line..... I know many of us use 6mm for our pull chords but there is a good chance 6mm would hold a short fall....

anyhoo.... food for thought.

[Jaxx]

When we did Mystery in March there was a 1/4" rapidlink (if I remember the size right) along with the big one. I wondered why that was, mabey someone figured that out.

[bruce from bryce]

Also, if using a contingency anchor such as a munter mule, remember to feed the non-weighted side of the rope through the rapide (see Birch 6-5-07, DSCN5006. While I cannot definitely confirm it the un-weighted side does appear like it has been fed through the rapide). When the last man is ready to descent he removes the munter and creates a biner block or just raps on two strands.

I believe that is what the group had planned on doing when they did their extensive pre-trip planning.

As for the large rapide in Mystery, if it has not been removed by June 25th I will remove it. Hank: do you think that WD-40 will break the screw enough to remove with a wrench or will a hacksaw be required?

[smcqueen]

Also, if using a contingency anchor such as a munter mule, remember to feed the non-weighted side of the rope through the rapide (see Birch 6-5-07, DSCN5006. While I cannot definitely confirm it the un-weighted side does appear like it has been fed through the rapide). When the last man is ready to descent he removes the munter and creates a biner block or just raps on two strands.

I believe that is what the group had planned on doing when they did their extensive pre-trip planning.

As for the large rapide in Mystery, if it has not been removed by June 25th I will remove it. Hank: do you think that WD-40 will break the screw enough to remove with a wrench or will a hacksaw be required?

Where is that photo? Do you have a link I could follow?

Thanks.

[Jaxx]

Where is that photo? Do you have a link I could follow?

Thanks.

http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7228
Search for DSCN5006. The knot on the carabiner is the munter I believe.

[jumar]

http://uutah.com/forum/files/dscn5006__small_.jpg

[Iceaxe]

Memorial Services for Keith Biedermann

Monday June 11, 2007
7:00 PM
St. Paul's Lutheran Church
13082 Bowen St
Garden Grove, CA 92843

Keith's obituary will be published on Sunday's Orange County Register.

[ratagonia]

Also, if using a contingency anchor such as a munter mule, remember to feed the non-weighted side of the rope through the rapide (see Birch 6-5-07, DSCN5006. While I cannot definitely confirm it the un-weighted side does appear like it has been fed through the rapide). When the last man is ready to descent he removes the munter and creates a biner block or just raps on two strands.

I believe that is what the group had planned on doing when they did their extensive pre-trip planning.

As for the large rapide in Mystery, if it has not been removed by June 25th I will remove it. Hank: do you think that WD-40 will break the screw enough to remove with a wrench or will a hacksaw be required?

I seem to remember trying to remove it with my little bolt kit wrench - no go. Maybe a substantial wrench and a large screwdriver, but a hacksaw might be a good idea - and a lot of patience.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Yeah... I've been thinking that many of the current practices used by canyoneers should be reviewed. I've been following the Heaps accident discussion on some of the climbing forums and those guys are just rolling their eyes at some of the things we do.

Also.... I thinking it might be good standard practice to use a safety as pictured in Tom's tech tips, and after the safety is removed to have someone down below tie into the retrieval line..... I know many of us use 6mm for our pull chords but there is a good chance 6mm would hold a short fall....

anyhoo.... food for thought.

Well, kinda, sorta. But really, the point is, if the ring is too large and there is even the remote possibility of the biner block pulling through, then you don't have a BLOCK, you have a land-mine-block or a pseudo-block, but you don't have a block.

Tom

[moabfool]

Yeah... I've been thinking that many of the current practices used by canyoneers should be reviewed. I've been following the Heaps accident discussion on some of the climbing forums and those guys are just rolling their eyes at some of the things we do.

Also.... I thinking it might be good standard practice to use a safety as pictured in Tom's tech tips, and after the safety is removed to have someone down below tie into the retrieval line..... I know many of us use 6mm for our pull chords but there is a good chance 6mm would hold a short fall....

anyhoo.... food for thought.

Well, kinda, sorta. But really, the point is, if the ring is too large and there is even the remote possibility of the biner block pulling through, then you don't have a BLOCK, you have a land-mine-block or a pseudo-block, but you don't have a block.

Tom

What would you think of putting up some pictures of what not to do? I noticed that every one of your biner blocks have either a safety or a substantial length of cord on the non-weighted side. Under the "Do Not" section you could have:
-A picture of a biner block with only a few feet on the retrieval end - no backup.
-A biner block put on another biner as the anchor (which seems to be the cause of the fatality).
-A quicklink that is too large and will allow a block to slide through.

If you're wondering about my first suggestion, I saw some guys last summer in Spry that were doing something that looked both smart and dumb all at the same time. They ran about five feet of their rope through the rap ring, put a biner block on it, and then rappelled on the long end. Yes, it held, but use of a biner block without a backup or a substancial lenth or rope behind it didn't seem completely secure to me. On the other hand, it worked well because it got they first guy down the rope with a reasonable assurance that he would reach bottom with rope to spare, but with no solid way to keep the rope from sliding on the clove hitch it seemed risky. What are your thoughts?

[moabfool]

Also, if using a contingency anchor such as a munter mule, remember to feed the non-weighted side of the rope through the rapide (see Birch 6-5-07, DSCN5006. While I cannot definitely confirm it the un-weighted side does appear like it has been fed through the rapide). When the last man is ready to descent he removes the munter and creates a biner block or just raps on two strands.

I believe that is what the group had planned on doing when they did their extensive pre-trip planning.

As for the large rapide in Mystery, if it has not been removed by June 25th I will remove it. Hank: do you think that WD-40 will break the screw enough to remove with a wrench or will a hacksaw be required?

I seem to remember trying to remove it with my little bolt kit wrench - no go. Maybe a substantial wrench and a large screwdriver, but a hacksaw might be a good idea - and a lot of patience.

Tom

I think a couple pair of vice grips and a MAPP gas torch would do the trick. Heat up the nut on the quicklink and the vice grips should have no trouble breaking the threads loose. Or, if I remember correctly, the big quicklink is just through a smaller quicklink. Take the smaller link off, taking the big link with it, and replace them with a climb spec quicklink.

[Mike C.]

I think a couple pair of vice grips and a MAPP gas torch would do the trick. Heat up the nut on the quicklink and the vice grips should have no trouble breaking the threads loose. Or, if I remember correctly, the big quicklink is just through a smaller quicklink. Take the smaller link off, taking the big link with it, and replace them with a climb spec quicklink.
_________________

I seem to recall when I went through Mystery a week ago, the large rapide was connected to a 5/16 quicklink. This was at Mystery Springs. We used a large Williams or similar for a block. Why would anyone use this large rapide in the first place? Better pull with a large diameter rope?

Mike C.

[moabfool]

I think a couple pair of vice grips and a MAPP gas torch would do the trick. Heat up the nut on the quicklink and the vice grips should have no trouble breaking the threads loose. Or, if I remember correctly, the big quicklink is just through a smaller quicklink. Take the smaller link off, taking the big link with it, and replace them with a climb spec quicklink.
_________________

I seem to recall when I went through Mystery a week ago, the large rapide was connected to a 5/16 quicklink. This was at Mystery Springs. We used a large Williams or similar for a block. Why would anyone use this large rapide in the first place? Better pull with a large diameter rope?

Mike C.

Easier rope pull, or a larger cross section so the link wears slower :ne_nau: . It didn't mean an easier rope pull for me last time I did Mystery. I used a knot block (backed up properly of course). The knot jammed in the large quicklink and we had a devil of a time getting it loose.

[Scott P]

Never mind.

[Stick]

Forgive my ignorance, but if the above is the case and the rapid link is hard to remove, wouldn't it be much easier to just cut the webbing out and replace it?

It has been a while since I have done Mystery but if I remember right the anchor is made of chains not webbing.

[Scott P]

It has been a while since I have done Mystery but if I remember right the anchor is made of chains not webbing.

Oh yeah. :oops: Never mind.

[rock_ski_cowboy]

What would you think of putting up some pictures of what not to do? I noticed that every one of your biner blocks have either a safety or a substantial length of cord on the non-weighted side. Under the "Do Not" section you could have:
-A picture of a biner block with only a few feet on the retrieval end - no backup.
-A biner block put on another biner as the anchor (which seems to be the cause of the fatality).
-A quicklink that is too large and will allow a block to slide through.

If you're wondering about my first suggestion, I saw some guys last summer in Spry that were doing something that looked both smart and dumb all at the same time. They ran about five feet of their rope through the rap ring, put a biner block on it, and then rappelled on the long end. Yes, it held, but use of a biner block without a backup or a substancial lenth or rope behind it didn't seem completely secure to me. On the other hand, it worked well because it got they first guy down the rope with a reasonable assurance that he would reach bottom with rope to spare, but with no solid way to keep the rope from sliding on the clove hitch it seemed risky. What are your thoughts?



Rope doesn't slide on a properly tied clove hitch or it would not be a suitable knot for a block. I would trust a clove with 5 feet of tail, but I wouldn't use it (if that makes sense?) because I would never have ocassion to do that, based on how I use biner blocks. (The clove hitch biner block is definitely one of those "freak out the uninitiated" knots, like the EDK, that leaves the uninitiated saying "Shouldn't we tie some more knots on that thing?".)


I rarely use a clove hitch block without a backup, except for on the last person down (me, if I set up the anchor) and even then having someone tied into the pull side is a good idea that I've sometimes used. Before the last one or two down, its easy enough to tie a figure eight on a bight and clip that into a bomber anchor, or back it up to another anchor near by (I don't hesitate to use a couple live bodies for a backup where there is a braceable position; but some people take issue with that); or even better, use a contingency anchor. For the last man or two down, the pull chord is lowerd and tested. I like to have two people to visually confirm the final setup, then one goes with a backup and tests and then the final one goes without having to rerig much or anything. If you're the last man down, I think its a great idea to have someone set a belay on the pull strand.

So, yeah, redundancy is important, but not having it shouldn't be classified in the same category as your second and third suggestion.

Related story #1: Once, in my earliest days of biner blocks, I clipped in the rope as a backup and forgot to unclip the rope as I rappelled down. Needless to say, I was immediately ascending back up to fix my rigging once we tried to pull and I realized what I'd done. Luckily it was a short, pretty easily ascendable rappel. Since then I've become meticulous double and triple checker, especially when i'm the last man down.


Related story #2: When Eric and I did Heaps, Eric went down on our tied off 300 (we carried it through, drybagged), and then I tied our two 150's together on the pull side and carefully lowered them to him. He then pulled the knot out past the nasty rope catching lip and tied that pull side to himself or a large boulder. Someone else took care of a fireman belay. Note that we were using rope on the pull side, NOT thin pull cord. We liked this because he rappelled off a tied-in (at the top) anchor and I rappelled off a tied-in (at the bottom) anchor , with the added benefit of having all our knots/biners out past the lip. The rope was threaded through the chain, nothing fancy. Don't take this to mean thats the right way to do the final Heaps rappel. You should already know exactly how to do that for yourself and evaluate for yourself whether you like or don't like this technique... it has its pros and cons that I won't elaborate.


PS.
I like to think of the acronym CHAD when double checking things at every rappel. When I'm a group leader with less-experienced folk I do it for others or try and have them do it. Carabiner (twisted shut), Harness (doubled back), Anchor (checked, depends on the anchor what I'm looking for, but always make sure that you are rappelling on the right strand and the block is set up properly) Device (Make sure the rope is threaded correctly through my rappel device and it's attached to my harness). Unfortunately the name Chad has no special significance for me so I find myself remembering the four things I check and then remembering what the Acronym was :)

[rockgremlin]

Some good points, thanks Ben.

[Wasatch]

OK, since we are talking about tying into a pull chord for the last person down. What kind of impact would that be to that person if the biner/edk/fishermans pull thru? Say on a 300 ft. drop?

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Well assuming they're treating it like they are anchoring/belaying the rappeller (IE no slack whatsoever) then I don't see how it would impact them at all, besides possibly giving them a little tug, regardless of the height. I wouldn't do this with a pull rope that I wouldn't also rappel on. I don't want to be responsible for advocating a non standard practice. If it doesn't make sense to you then please don't do it.

[Jaxx]

I have been told that the 6mm can take a 3,000 lb shock. Can anyone confirm that?

Also being new to the sport, Why not rappel of both the pull cord and the rope. EXAMPLE: You have a 100ft rappel. You tie the two ropes together at the top, mabey even biner block the rope. you put the pull cord (120 ft, 6mm) and put the rope (120 ft, 9 mm) through your ATC or whatever.
The downside I could see is that it might be hard to control two different sizes of rope through the device. I haven't practiced this yet, but it came up in discussion.

[rock_ski_cowboy]

I have been told that the 6mm can take a 3,000 lb shock. Can anyone confirm that?

Also being new to the sport, Why not rappel of both the pull cord and the rope.

Rappelling on different diameters of anything is not a good idea. In fact it is potentially a terrible idea! While as long as you had it blocked right you'd probably be fine, getting the block or knot on the wrong side of the anchor (Note: make sure your bigger rope is going through the rapides!) could easily result in death, as people believe it did in the case of a local climber (sad story, I've met his family) rappelling off different diameter ropes after having climbed Angel's Landing in the 90s. What would happen (likely happened) is this: Your thicker rope would have more friction than the thinner cord, so the cord passes through the device faster than the thicker. You rappel off the end of your cord before you are at the ground. Even if you did block it right and managed to get down without a mess, you'd find your pull cord twisting with your rope. Always keep them seperate .

[Jaxx]

Your thicker rope would have more friction than the thinner cord, so the cord passes through the device faster than the thicker. You rappel off the end of your cord before you are at the ground. Even if you did block it right and managed to get down without a mess, you'd find your pull cord twisting with your rope. Always keep them seperate .

Thanks for the tip. I never thought of the twisting and friction thing.

[Brian in SLC]

Also being new to the sport, Why not rappel of both the pull cord and the rope.

Rappelling on different diameters of anything is not a good idea. In fact it is potentially a terrible idea! While as long as you had it blocked right you'd probably be fine, getting the block or knot on the wrong side of the anchor (Note: make sure your bigger rope is going through the rapides!) could easily result in death, as people believe it did in the case of a local climber (sad story, I've met his family) rappelling off different diameter ropes after having climbed Angel's Landing in the 90s.

Christiansen at around 1a.m. near new years eve, I seem to recall. After soloing Prodigal Son, instead of hauling the last pitch to the walk off, chose to rappel off instead. They think the skinny rope/fat rope combo is what caused the rope ends to be uneven, but, regardless (and no one will really know), he missed the rope end and it slipped through his rap device. In other words, had less to do with rope diameter differences than it did rapping off the end of his rope. Couple different ways to have prevented that tragic accident, to be sure.

But, rappelling on different size cords is commonly done, with no ill effects at all. Sure, watch the different friction on the skinny cord and how it could effect the rope ends. But, its very commonly done by climbers who use a tag line, or, skinny static (or different size lead cords used together in the newer hybrid pairing that'll be more popular soon in the future).

I routinely rap on both a 6mm tied into a 9.4mm. Just watch in case the knot at the top moves, and keep an eye on the rope ends (which a person should do anyway, regardless of the diameter of the ropes).

I don't find twisting to be an issue with different diameter rope pairings.

Very very rarely do I rappel two ropes of the same diameter...unless I'm climbing on doubles or twins (also rare, except maybe ice climbing).

Also, with a biner block or knot block, you can clip the biner or knot back into the rappel line, creating a closed loop that might be more difficult to pull, but, it won't pull through. I do this when I want the rappel line to follow my pull cord when I pull the ropes down. Works great.

Part of me hates the thought that all the big rapides out there that don't support a biner block by being too big are going to be changed out for smaller ones. That'll make for more friction and more change outs of the smaller rapides due to wear. Not sure why folks always have to use a block, rather than just rappelling double (unless a knot is to be avoided ala the last Heaps rappel).

Anyhoo...

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

I'm with Brian, Seldom do I rappel on two ropes of the same diameter. I also will add my pull chord to the equation if I want more friction (while blocking the rappel line).... seems a much better method of adding friction than some of the mickey mouse methods I see being used. I've never had a problem with my lines twisting, but I use an ATC.

Personally I think biner blocks are being over used. Some folks biner block every rappel. I've also had problems with biner blocks causing wear spots in the sheath when pulled. We ruined a couple of ropes in Arches last winter because of biner blocks.

YMMV

[bruce from bryce]

Brian: concerning the discussion on the large rapides. I know for a fact that the one in Mystery is serving no purpose whatsoever. There is a medium sized one that does just great. The overly large one is just an accident ready to happen.

[Brian in SLC]

Brian: concerning the discussion on the large rapides. I know for a fact that the one in Mystery is serving no purpose whatsoever. There is a medium sized one that does just great. The overly large one is just an accident ready to happen.

Serving no purpose? Isn't it the rappel anchor point? That's not "no" purpose, but, a primary one?

Only an accident waiting to happen if you biner block?

Otherwise, if you rappel on two cords tied together (or, maybe a 70m rope doubled), then that big rapide would work just fine.

In the climbing world, big rapides are considered better. But, climbers rarely (if ever) biner block.

I just hate the thought that a technique is forcing the rappel anchors to be smaller and less strong, with more friction and more chance of sticking a rope, and less useful life from a wear standpoint. Plus, any diameter rope will be fine in a large rapide, versus, some small rapides will have a hard time accomodating a large diameter rope.

I'll say, that if the only advantage to a smaller rapide is that it accomodates a biner block, then, find another technique to use.

Plus, you get more friction from two ropes when you rappel. Easier to control. Less chance for wear (sheath burn throughs) on one rope.

-Brian in SLC

[Stick]

In the climbing world, big rapides are considered better. But, climbers rarely (if ever) biner block.

Forgive my ignorance here. I use biner blocks because that is what I have learned from people I have gone canyoneering with. If climbers rarely use biner blocks I am guessing they use some sort of knot block. What kind of knot (or knots) do they use?

Or do they usually rappel double strand? If that is the case then I suppose the knot doesn't necessarily have to block right next to the rapide.

[moabfool]

Brian: concerning the discussion on the large rapides. I know for a fact that the one in Mystery is serving no purpose whatsoever. There is a medium sized one that does just great. The overly large one is just an accident ready to happen.

Serving no purpose? Isn't it the rappel anchor point? That's not "no" purpose, but, a primary one?

Only an accident waiting to happen if you biner block?

Otherwise, if you rappel on two cords tied together (or, maybe a 70m rope doubled), then that big rapide would work just fine.

In the climbing world, big rapides are considered better. But, climbers rarely (if ever) biner block.

I just hate the thought that a technique is forcing the rappel anchors to be smaller and less strong, with more friction and more chance of sticking a rope, and less useful life from a wear standpoint. Plus, any diameter rope will be fine in a large rapide, versus, some small rapides will have a hard time accomodating a large diameter rope.

I'll say, that if the only advantage to a smaller rapide is that it accomodates a biner block, then, find another technique to use.

Plus, you get more friction from two ropes when you rappel. Easier to control. Less chance for wear (sheath burn throughs) on one rope.

-Brian in SLC

All good points, but the fact is, as was demonstrated by the accident that precipitated this thread, that people are going to see a technique demonstrated and then they are going to apply that technique broadly. These people may lack the skills, judgment, and insight to see that what they are about to do is unsafe. "There is nothing so uncommon as common sense," -Frank Lloyd Wright.

I'm not saying that our unfortunate victim wouldn't have picked up on the problem under normal circumstances. What I am saying is that when one is cold, fatigued, and presented with a close view of their goal (the bottom) they do not always think clearly/make rational judgments. At that point only rules and ingrained training/practice can keep you safe as logic and reasoning will not do so.

I guess my point is this: People are going to use this technique (biner block) who don't necessarily know when it is inappropriate to use. The outcome will likely be injury or death. As a result we need to play to the lowest common denominator. Sure a thinner quicklink will wear more quickly than a girthy one. And? It's the responsibility of the individual canyoneer to come equipped with a workable alternative.

[jumar]

Or do they usually rappel double strand? If that is the case then I suppose the knot doesn't necessarily have to block right next to the rapide.
I usually double strand. :ne_nau:
I climbed for about 8 years before I started officially canyoneering, so I guess old habits die hard.

[Brian in SLC]

In the climbing world, big rapides are considered better. But, climbers rarely (if ever) biner block.
Or do they usually rappel double strand? If that is the case then I suppose the knot doesn't necessarily have to block right next to the rapide.

I've never seen a climber use a biner block on a rappel.

They typically rappel double strand.

-Brian in SLC

[hesse15]

Brian,
you have to consider that a lot of people join this sport try to get as light as possible
and the biner block allow them to use the other strand with whatsoever.
the last crazy i heard was pulling the rope using a fish line!!!! :ne_nau: :ne_nau:

in a way i like the double real rope , also because if anything happens you have a rope not a shoe string to rap off.

unlikely i cannot carry the weight, but i do not understand in this sport people that brag about been superman strong :stud: and after they cry if they have to carry a 60meter 9mm rope.
:nono:


i agree that biner block can be useful in a waterfall or better a contigency anchor that you can lower who get stuck
or in small drops, but made a rule 100% i think is just wrong.
but that is the actual trend

:twisted:


Brian: concerning the discussion on the large rapides. I know for a fact that the one in Mystery is serving no purpose whatsoever. There is a medium sized one that does just great. The overly large one is just an accident ready to happen.

Serving no purpose? Isn't it the rappel anchor point? That's not "no" purpose, but, a primary one?

Only an accident waiting to happen if you biner block?

Otherwise, if you rappel on two cords tied together (or, maybe a 70m rope doubled), then that big rapide would work just fine.

In the climbing world, big rapides are considered better. But, climbers rarely (if ever) biner block.

I just hate the thought that a technique is forcing the rappel anchors to be smaller and less strong, with more friction and more chance of sticking a rope, and less useful life from a wear standpoint. Plus, any diameter rope will be fine in a large rapide, versus, some small rapides will have a hard time accomodating a large diameter rope.

I'll say, that if the only advantage to a smaller rapide is that it accomodates a biner block, then, find another technique to use.

Plus, you get more friction from two ropes when you rappel. Easier to control. Less chance for wear (sheath burn throughs) on one rope.

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

I guess my point is this: People are going to use this technique (biner block) who don't necessarily know when it is inappropriate to use. The outcome will likely be injury or death. As a result we need to play to the lowest common denominator. Sure a thinner quicklink will wear more quickly than a girthy one. And? It's the responsibility of the individual canyoneer to come equipped with a workable alternative.

Yep.

I've given this a fair bit of thought over the last while. Seems like if you had to knot and/or biner block a drop, you could carry a rigging plate or some type of rescue belay plate (I've got a few CMI ones, small hole in the middle, notches on the outside for the rope to sit against, probably a three or four inch diameter plate).

http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/hardware-anch-rig.html

Yates model above looks kinda cool.

Anyhoo, you could slip one of these onto the rope, then knot or biner block against it, which would be against a larger diameter rapide. As a large disc, it would sit nice and flush against the rapide with less chance of a hang up.

Folks could also still complete the loop on these biner blocks by clipping back into the rappel line.

I've never understood the need for a biner block when there isn't a knot to pass. There are some situations where you want to block one side of the rope in case you need to ascend it, or, to get the rappel line to follow a pull cord (by clipping it back through the rap line). But, for standard rappels, I'm not sure why its become so common, except that canyoneers not coming into canyons via climbing have learned this technique and dogmatically follow it.

-Brian in SLC

[moabfool]

I guess my point is this: People are going to use this technique (biner block) who don't necessarily know when it is inappropriate to use. The outcome will likely be injury or death. As a result we need to play to the lowest common denominator. Sure a thinner quicklink will wear more quickly than a girthy one. And? It's the responsibility of the individual canyoneer to come equipped with a workable alternative.

Yep.

I've given this a fair bit of thought over the last while. Seems like if you had to knot and/or biner block a drop, you could carry a rigging plate or some type of rescue belay plate (I've got a few CMI ones, small hole in the middle, notches on the outside for the rope to sit against, probably a three or four inch diameter plate).

http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/hardware-anch-rig.html

Yates model above looks kinda cool.

Anyhoo, you could slip one of these onto the rope, then knot or biner block against it, which would be against a larger diameter rapide. As a large disc, it would sit nice and flush against the rapide with less chance of a hang up.

Folks could also still complete the loop on these biner blocks by clipping back into the rappel line.

I've never understood the need for a biner block when there isn't a knot to pass. There are some situations where you want to block one side of the rope in case you need to ascend it, or, to get the rappel line to follow a pull cord (by clipping it back through the rap line). But, for standard rappels, I'm not sure why its become so common, except that canyoneers not coming into canyons via climbing have learned this technique and dogmatically follow it.

-Brian in SLC

I appolgize. I used circular logic there. I effectively said, "There are people who don't know that we have to think about, but they should know and be prepared." Oh well, people drive that don't know the rules of the road. What can you do? :ne_nau:

I do agree, people use the biner block too much. In most situations rappelling double strand will work just fine. Hesse does have a point though. Why carry two full length ropes when one, and a pull cord, will do fine? Both cases have merit. The ultimate point is that if you have the skills to pull it off then have at it. If you don't, you may be a candidate for the Darwin Award.

[Brian in SLC]

I do agree, people use the biner block too much. In most situations rappelling double strand will work just fine. Hesse does have a point though. Why carry two full length ropes when one, and a pull cord, will do fine? Both cases have merit. The ultimate point is that if you have the skills to pull it off then have at it. If you don't, you may be a candidate for the Darwin Award.

I rap double strand with my 6mm pull cord all the time. Usually feeding it on the go out of its little bag.

A fully functional pull cord, IMHO, should be able to function on its own in a pinch.

My old Espirit alpine escape rope kinda bit the dust (er, the dust bit the rope, rockfall chopped it). Now I've got a sweet BW chunk of 6mm kevlar that has the nicest hand...and...no worries about its strength...

-Brian in SLC

[ajroadtrips]

I rap double strand with my 6mm pull cord all the time. Usually feeding it on the go out of its little bag.

A fully functional pull cord, IMHO, should be able to function on its own in a pinch.

My old Espirit alpine escape rope kinda bit the dust (er, the dust bit the rope, rockfall chopped it). Now I've got a sweet BW chunk of 6mm kevlar that has the nicest hand...and...no worries about its strength...

-Brian in SLC

Hmmm, that peaks my interest. I rap double if I have the rope, biner block and pull cord with a 6MM if I don't. You are tying your 6mm pullcord to your "bigger" rope, then rapping double strand?

Tom's 6MM pull cord is rated on his site at 2200 lbs. Does that seem strong enough? Doesn't an overhand reduce the strength of the rope by a large percentage?

[Iceaxe]

A rough look at the numbers.... Tom rates his 8mm at 3900 lbs and his 6mm at 2200 lbs.... so a 6mm doubled is stronger then 8mm single in strength?

My preferred canyon setup has become two 100' 8mm ropes. This works for most canyons (outside Zion) and allows the group to split the weight, rap double strand, and leap frog the ropes at the smaller drops.

:popcorn:

[Brian in SLC]

Hmmm, that peaks my interest. I rap double if I have the rope, biner block and pull cord with a 6MM if I don't. You are tying your 6mm pullcord to your "bigger" rope, then rapping double strand?

All the time. I find it feeds nicely through the other slot of an ATC, too. Plus, when I deploy it as I rappel out of a bag, I control the length incrementaly, rather than "bombs away" by tossing the whole bag down, which, may not be good if I'm aiming for ledge and rap anchor off the ground aways, and I don't want that extra feet of rope (and bag) below me if there are wind concerns or stuff for the rope to get stuck on.


Tom's 6MM pull cord is rated on his site at 2200 lbs. Does that seem strong enough? Doesn't an overhand reduce the strength of the rope by a large percentage?

IMHO, for rappelling, that rope on Tom's site at 6mm would be well strong enough for a rappel, even with a knot in it. Given that, I wouldn't care to ascend it single, nor do a haul and/or rescue (ie a pick off) off it, so, I'd recognize those limitations for sure.

Overhand might take 40% out for strength. I always assume 50% for margin. But, you're not really on that knot directly either, especially on a rappel anchor. Be unusual to completely load that single strand with the knot directly in line to the load. And, if I do end up rappelling the pull cord, its usually doubled. Or, if single strand, then I need to be a bit more aware of any shock load potential and the effect a knot might have at the anchor.

-Brian in SLC

[jumar]

Why carry two full length ropes when one, and a pull cord, will do fine?
My concern has always been not getting my rope stuck. Having a knot or biner I'm pulling down, seems much more likely to get caught, then just a untied strand. This is assuming of course that you're using only one rope, doubled over. I'm wary of doing a biner block on any rap without a very clean pull, because I don't want to get my rope stuck. Are my fears not as bad as I think? :ne_nau: But I rarely have a problem double strand-ing so I haven't bothered to switch.

[smcqueen]

It seems to me that some kind of block is very nice for setting rope lengths so you don't have to stuff the whole rope in the bag, or for floating disconnects. Otherwise, rapping on a double rope is fine. I usually have a 60M 9mm plus a 60M 6mm pull cord. I've never tried rapping on them both together. I also frequently clip the block biner back into the rappel rope for safety, unless I'm concerned about the pull. For the last drop in Behunin, we used a single biner block, not clipped back. I went down first and carried the rope bag with me until I got to the free part. The last guy down brought down the pull cord with him. At the bottom, we attached jumars to the pull cord and pulled with no problem.

We actually had two 60M ropes plus the pull cord in Behunin and were able to leapfrog teams on the multi-stage drops. It worked very nicely. We always used some kind of block. I don't think we ever rapped double rope.

[moabfool]

Overhand might take 40% out for strength. I always assume 50% for margin. But, you're not really on that knot directly either, especially on a rappel anchor. Be unusual to completely load that single strand with the knot directly in line to the load. And, if I do end up rappelling the pull cord, its usually doubled. Or, if single strand, then I need to be a bit more aware of any shock load potential and the effect a knot might have at the anchor.

-Brian in SLC

Relative reduction in breaking strength of single kernmantle rope at knot:

Double Fisherman's 15-30%
Clove Hitch (biner block) 15-20%
Fisherman's 15-20%
Overhand Knot (EDK) 15-20%
Water Knot aka. Ring Bend 20-30%
Figure Eight 20-30%
Bowline 25-30%

Source: American Alpine Journal
My source: Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills, Ed. 7 p. 141

Okay, it's not an exact quote. I added the parenthetical comments.

[hank moon]

Overhand might take 40% out for strength. I always assume 50% for margin. But, you're not really on that knot directly either, especially on a rappel anchor. Be unusual to completely load that single strand with the knot directly in line to the load. And, if I do end up rappelling the pull cord, its usually doubled. Or, if single strand, then I need to be a bit more aware of any shock load potential and the effect a knot might have at the anchor.

-Brian in SLC

Relative reduction in breaking strength of single kernmantle rope at knot:

Double Fisherman's 15-30%
Clove Hitch (biner block) 15-20%
Fisherman's 15-20%
Overhand Knot (EDK) 15-20%
Water Knot aka. Ring Bend 20-30%
Figure Eight 20-30%
Bowline 25-30%

Source: American Alpine Journal
My source: Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills, Ed. 7 p. 141

Okay, it's not an exact quote. I added the parenthetical comments.

These results are not reproducible - anticipated 50% loss is prudent.