TR: Larry, Alcatraz, and Mindbender

[CarpeyBiggs]

Quick TR from the weekend. John Varn (alusul) and I hit up Larry, Alcatraz, and Mindbender. It was a nice weekend, given the heat. Saturday was tolerable, but Sunday was damn hot. Bugs were outrageous in NF RR. Hope for better this weekend at the Hole.

Absolutely no water in Larry. Alcatraz had some nasty stuff in it, up to about mid thigh in one spot.

Mindbender TR is now up as well.

Enjoy.

Larry: http://www.danransom.com/TripReports/?p=83

Alcatraz: http://www.danransom.com/TripReports/?p=84

Mindbender: http://www.danransom.com/TripReports/?p=85

[Scott Card]

Larry is great in the cool part of spring or fall. That slog out is not that bad when it is cool. When I last did it a couple of months ago, there were still patches of snow and the hike was nice in the bottom of the canyon and no big deal up he exit crack to the car. Add heat to the equation and it would be bad. I thought the Mind bender exit was worse by far cause it was pretty warm when I did it a few weeks ago.

Great photos as always.

[rockgremlin]

Wow...this would be Alcatraz take 2 for John so far this year. He also did it back in March if I recall.


I love your photos, as always.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Add heat to the equation and it would be bad. I thought the Mind bender exit was worse by far cause it was pretty warm when I did it a few weeks ago.

Great photos as always.

Yeah, Larry isn't bad with the shuttle. If you don't shuttle though, It'd be misery, methinks. And yes, Mindbender is brutal in the heat. Just ask John, he puked all over the place on the way out... Coulda been bad if we weren't so close to the car.



Wow...this would be Alcatraz take 2 for John so far this year. He also did it back in March if I recall.

I think it is actually is third in the last few months. He did it last week, plus a few months ago. Either way, it's worth doing again. Cool canyon.

[montanablur]

Nice one...

[CarpeyBiggs]

Added Mindbender to the links in the original post.

Mindbender: http://www.danransom.com/TripReports/?p=85

[mrbrejcha]

Sounds like some fun canyons and some fun times. Those are some great pictures!

Are those bolts still at the last rap in Mindbender?

[CarpeyBiggs]

Sounds like some fun canyons and some fun times. Those are some great pictures!

Are those bolts still at the last rap in Mindbender?

Yeah, still there. I should've fixed the sling length though, as the pull is creating some nasty grooves already. Here's my proposal to the next group through... Extend the slings a few feet.

[Sombeech]

How do you get those sweet sunsets? That's gorgeous

http://www.danransom.com/TripReports/RoostJune07/images/AlcatrazSunset.jpg

[snatch]

do you have any pics of your dead man's on the last rap?

[CarpeyBiggs]

do you have any pics of your dead man's on the last rap?

The deadman cairns are still there, but since it has been recently bolted, the webbing is gone. We used the bolts.

[accadacca]

How do you get those sweet sunsets? That's gorgeous

http://www.danransom.com/TripReports/RoostJune07/images/AlcatrazSunset.jpg

WTF. . .that ain't fair. :lol8:

[oldgator]

"Yeah, Larry isn't bad with the shuttle. If you don't shuttle though, It'd be misery, methinks. "

When we did Larry a few weeks back, we stashed the packs at the trailhead, drove the car back near the Exit crack, and walked the 3+ miles to the trailhead carrying only a water bottle, still a long walk but much better in the early morning when it is cool, and easier with a whole 2-lbs of water than with a full pack.


Dan

[snatch]

bolts eh. damn, that last rap was my favorite part about that canyon. nothing beats digging in the mud for 30 minutes to bury some rocks. that's like taking a sandbox away from a little kid. anybody on this forum taking responsibility for the bolts?

[CarpeyBiggs]

bolts eh. damn, that last rap was my favorite part about that canyon. nothing beats digging in the mud for 30 minutes to bury some rocks. that's like taking a sandbox away from a little kid. anybody on this forum taking responsibility for the bolts?

Not sure anyone has taken responsibility yet... There was a lengthy discussion on the egroup though a couple weeks back. Seems like they were placed in the last month or so.

I wasn't really that impressed with the canyon either, to be honest. The last rap is the only redeeming feature for me.

[mrbrejcha]

I wasn't really that impressed with the canyon either, to be honest. The last rap is the only redeeming feature for me.

The only reason I did Mindbender was for the last rap off a pile of rocks, to me rapping off bolts would take a lot of bite out of that canyon and then it's just another rappel.

I liked mindbender a whole lot, I did it the morning after a rainstorm and it was FULL and really fun.

[Iceaxe]

I get the feeling that when the bolter is discovered he will be easily identified by the hammer and drill shoved up his ass.... :lol8:

The bolts are not very popular and I don't expect them to last very long so go prepared.

:popcorn:

[mrbrejcha]

The bolts are not very popular and I don't expect them to last very long so go prepared.

:popcorn:

I dunno, sounds to me like no one is building the deadman anymore with all the rope grooves forming, but I don't think they'll be there much longer either.

[Iceaxe]

I dunno, sounds to me like no one is building the deadman anymore with all the rope grooves forming, but I don't think they'll be there much longer either.

If what I'm hearing is correct rope grooves are now forming at the new bolted anchor.

Rope grooves are not cause by bolts or natural anchors, they are cause by poorly placed anchors and improper sling lengths.

:popcorn:

[Scott P]

The bolts are not very popular

The bolter put the bolts in the canyon with the assumption that more people could do the canyon (thus becoming more popular).

[Iceaxe]

The bolter put the bolts in the canyon with the assumption that more people could do the canyon (thus becoming more popular).

I get it... you mean someone decided to dumb down the canyon to rap-n-swim status...

I'm getting a very strong feeling that the bolter is a popular guidebook author.

http://www.canyoneering.com/pictures/envior_pics/anti-bolt-inch.gif

[CarpeyBiggs]

The bolts are not very popular and I don't expect them to last very long so go prepared.

:popcorn:

I dunno, sounds to me like no one is building the deadman anymore with all the rope grooves forming, but I don't think they'll be there much longer either.

Did you guys use the deadman when you went through? It is still there, and a nice pile of rocks to add to it. Just the webbing has been taken off of it. Should be easy to rebuild it.

The grooves are probably from only the last few parties that went through. They aren't horribly obvious yet, but they will get worse with use, no doubt.

[ajroadtrips]

I get the feeling that when the bolter is discovered he will be easily identified by the hammer and drill shoved up his ass....


To counterpoint the always vocal and eloquent Ice.

First, a disclaimer. I did not place the bolts in mindbender, don't know who did, and have not inspected them, but have heard they are very well placed.

That being said, I have done mindbender, and would say that in my opinion, it may be an appropriate place for bolts.

The area where the deadman is, from my recollection, did not have much material to build another deadman should the existing one wash out. (which is likely with big floods) Right before this rap is a stiff downclimb/rap that many would have difficulty reversing to get materials if needed.

"People should check before doing the downclimb like my beta suggests" I hear Ice chomping at the bit to post. Yeah, but most likely don't. People should also replace and clean anchors when they find bad webbing, but my experience shows they don't.

What if your there right after a heavy rain? The anchor would be difficult if not impossible to check or build in a full pothole.

Although I agree it is better to use natural anchors where appropriate and safe, in my mind, bolts may be appropriate in this case. I would certainly prefer to go off them, especially if the pothole is full.

Fire away.

[CarpeyBiggs]

The area where the deadman is, from my recollection, did not have much material to build another deadman should the existing one wash out. (which is likely with big floods) Right before this rap is a stiff downclimb/rap that many would have difficulty reversing to get materials if needed.


My only contention to your post is that the difficult downclimb is reversible, using a partner assist. It would be very hard with one person, but I think two people could pretty easily make work of it.

I'm pretty much a n00b around here, but one of the reasons why I wanted to check out Mindbender is because of all the fuss with the bolts. I am not necessarily into stirring up more controversy, but I do like to try and see both sides of the story when possible.

That being said, I think deserthiker makes a fairly logical point. Natural anchors are the way to go, but there are some situations that bolts are not a bad idea... Mindbender might be one of those.

But what do I know, I've been around for like 2 months...

[nosivad_bor]

The bolts are not very popular

The bolter put the bolts in the canyon with the assumption that more people could do the canyon (thus becoming more popular).

How do you know thats the reason the bolter put the bolts in the canyon? inside scoop ? :naughty:

[alusul]

I'm tending to stick with the view that if all traderoute canyons with a moderately difficult natural anchor setup are bolted than doing the traderoutes will give little to no prior experience to the beginning canyoneer who wishes to move into even reasonably difficult canyons that are less commonly accessed (If you dont wish to do this, I'd hardly call you a canyoneer.)

I do not believe that canyoneering will be safer if all common canyons are being geared towards canyon tourists without proper leadership. I believe it does lend a false sense of ease to the would-be-canyoneer, which then leads to panic when there is no visible anchor rigging.

Personally I'm probably going to start using up my webbing a lot more to rerig rappels, partially for safety of at least doubling up rap rings, but more for the experience.

[Johnlithon]

http://www.canyoneering.com/pictures/envior_pics/anti-bolt-inch.gif

[Iceaxe]

The area where the deadman is, from my recollection, did not have much material to build another deadman should the existing one wash out.

Ya see young'un.... this is why you have me around....

If you reach the final rappel in Mindbender and the bolts have been removed and everything on the planet has been washed out of the canyon.... what do you do? Gosh..... how about we rappel a fella down from a human anchor to load up a backpack with a couple nice rocks from the hundreds of tons of rock at the bottom of the rappel?

Just a though....

Bolts are for those with no skills and no imagination.

:five:

[ajroadtrips]

The area where the deadman is, from my recollection, did not have much material to build another deadman should the existing one wash out.

Ya see young'un.... this is why you have me around....

If you reach the final rappel in Mindbender and the bolts have been removed and everything on the planet has been washed out of the canyon.... what do you do? Gosh..... how about we rappel a fella down from a human anchor to load up a backpack with a couple nice rocks from the hundreds of tons of rock at the bottom of the rappel?

Just a though....


But...but...what if yer solo... and a flashflood is coming... and a rattlesnake has the only rock you can use for a deadman cornered.... *Rolling my eyes* The what if game.

What if the pothole was full of water and I needed to build a deadman in it? Bring a paper cup and empty it cup by cup?



Bolts are for those with no skills and no imagination.


No worries Ice, my "A" game has gotten me through many a canyon without needing to place bolts. Never had search and rescue called for me.... :roflol:

Bolts aren't neccessary a lack of skills or imagination, but like knot chocks and deadman, can be a useful tool.

[rockgremlin]

.. how about we rappel a fella down from a human anchor to load up a backpack with a couple nice rocks from the hundreds of tons of rock at the bottom of the rappel?



Yes....but....that rappel is like 160 feet. You're gonna lug rocks from 160 feet below? You're gonna be there all day, and expend an enormous amount of energy trying to build a viable anchor going at it like that.

Besides, what if you have a storm brewing overhead, the pothole is full, and you need to get youor party down ASAP? You still gonna lug rocks up from the bottom?

I prefer to go boltless, but in this case, Ryan makes a good point.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Hey, if Steve Allen can do it in a blizzard with no beta.....

[Iceaxe]

No worries Ice, my "A" game has gotten me through many a canyon

Yeah... but the big question still remains.... were you wearing knee pads while executing your "A" game?

:popcorn:

[rockgremlin]

Hey, if Steve Allen can do it in a blizzard with no beta.....

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[Iceaxe]

If I believed in therapy, now would be the time I started going.

:nod:

[mrbrejcha]

If what I'm hearing is correct rope grooves are now forming at the new bolted anchor.

Rope grooves are not cause by bolts or natural anchors, they are cause by poorly placed anchors and improper sling lengths.

:popcorn:

There were no rope grooves before the bolts, and now with bolts there are...so even when the bolts are chopped there will be permanent damage. I think when folks have to take 30 minutes to build an anchor, they think a lot more about the setup and the pull instead of just clip and go.


Did you guys use the deadman when you went through? It is still there, and a nice pile of rocks to add to it. Just the webbing has been taken off of it. Should be easy to rebuild it.

When I went through (early may) I clenaed the cord off the bolts and built a deadman, did the pile of rocks look like this pictur, cause if it does that was what Mike and i built.

[stefan]

i believe most folks place the anchor in the pothole adjacent to the the drop, right below the lip, e.g., see tom's site: http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/roost/

[alusul]

It definitely looked more like mrbrejcha's photo than tom's when I saw it, about the same size at least and in the constriction not the lip.

[Scott P]

Unfortunately, chopping the bolts could potentially lead to problems. What happens if a new guidebook comes out saying that the bolts are there, but the noobs come down and they are not?

It seems that bolting canyons in the Roost is a situation where everyone loses.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Unfortunately, chopping the bolts could potentially lead to problems. What happens if a new guidebook comes out saying that the bolts are there, but the noobs come down and they are not?

It seems that bolting canyons in the Roost is a situation where everyone loses.

Are you saying a new guide book will be mentioning these bolts sometime soon? :ne_nau:

You do bring up an interesting point though, because Mindbender is certainly an easy canyon up to the last rappel. Nothing that would give pause to the uninformed. So if they got to the last rap, no bolts, no deadman, they might be in bad shape.

BTW, the same deadman you built Matt is still there, it looks like, just with the webbing removed. The rock might still be tied off though, I can't recall.

[Iceaxe]

Unfortunately, chopping the bolts could potentially lead to problems. What happens if a new guidebook comes out saying that the bolts are there, but the noobs come down and they are not?

It might be a good idea if you informed said auther before his new book is sent to the publisher that the bolts will be pulled. That should cure that problem....


:popcorn:

[stefan]

should the bolts are pulled this summer, mike will have enough time to remove them from his book (if he mentioned them).

[Iceaxe]

Personally I believe relying on any bolt to be in place is a very stupid idea.

Relying on a bolt to be in place in what many consider to be a bolt-free area is double-stupid....

Believing that any beta printed in a guidebook (or any where else) is current is beyond stupid.... YMMV...

:popcorn:

[ajroadtrips]

It might be a good idea if you informed said auther before his new book is sent to the publisher that the bolts will be pulled. That should cure that problem....

:popcorn:

Until they re-appear and go in someone else's description...

Being a vocal opponent to bolts, can I assume all climb-utah routes are done with strictly non-bolt anchors? And the descriptions reflect such? If it is such a high personal ethic for a you (or any person for that matter), then I would expect you to never rap off a bolt in a canyon. If your clipping bolts, up your game, get some skills, then come back and we'll talk. :popcorn:

The mindbender anchor has been discussed many times in the past with many people arguing for each side. That, in my mind, likely means it will be re-bolted if "un-bolted".

If your personal ethic is to not use bolts, then just skip it. They cause no more visual intrusion than a pile of rocks and webbing.

[Iceaxe]

:roll:

ASS of U and ME

Assume whatever you like...

[ajroadtrips]

Relying on a bolt to be in place in what many consider to be a bolt-free area is double-stupid....


Ummm. I hear this a lot, "The Roost Is BOLT-FREE!". That is simply NOT TRUE.

The canyons Maybe Mind Bender, Ho-Hum, North Fork, South Fork, TCB and many others have bolts. I would discourage bolting in the roost, because canyons generally provide for natural anchors, and have been done in the past without bolts, but bolt free it is not.

Debunking BS, one post at a time...

[Iceaxe]

Debunking BS, one post at a time...

:roll:

By chance was your bus shorter than most of the other buses at your school? :lol8:

Ice... Pulling one bolt at a time....

[CarpeyBiggs]

Is this hinting at a bolt-chopping exploration in the roost for the near future??

[Iceaxe]

Let me help some of you out here a little bit..... the Roost is not devoid of bolts.... but many consider removing any bolt in the Roost to be fair game. From here you can spin it any way you wish.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Let me help some of you out here a little bit..... the Roost is not devoid of bolts.... but many consider removing any bolt in the Roost to be fair game. From here you can spin it any way you wish. I'm just reporting the facts. I'm not going to argue the finer points.

I think we all understand that.... We just want to know if you are going to be the one to yank 'em. If not, should somebody else?

Again, I realize I haven't been around for too long, so I'm just trying to hear out the dialogues on the situation. How often does actual bolt chopping happen? I know that most of the beta-masters eschew a no-bolt ethic, but how many people get torqued enough to go out and actually remove them?

I've been in 6 or 7 canyons in the roost now, and all of them had at least one bolt, with the exception of high spur, and alcatraz. Seriously, RockGremlin and I couldn't believe EF Pasture, which had bolts at every downclimb, it seemed. Doesn't seem like there is really a removal crew out there, save a few isolated incidences.

Perhaps Mindbender is worthy of chopping though, because it is more revered than others?

[rockgremlin]

Ya, East Fork Pasture is a bolt garden these days. Someone needs to go clean that up the next time they head down that way.

Roost is definitely NOT bolt-free, but I think in order to be safe, one should assume (there's that word again) that it is.

[ajroadtrips]

I think we all understand that.... We just want to know if you are going to be the one to yank 'em. If not, should somebody else?

Again, I realize I haven't been around for too long, so I'm just trying to hear out the dialogues on the situation. How often does actual bolt chopping happen? I know that most of the beta-masters eschew a no-bolt ethic, but how many people get torqued enough to go out and actually remove them?

I've been in 6 or 7 canyons in the roost now, and all of them had at least one bolt, with the exception of high spur, and alcatraz. Seriously, RockGremlin and I couldn't believe EF Pasture, which had bolts at every downclimb, it seemed. Doesn't seem like there is really a removal crew out there, save a few isolated incidences.

Perhaps Mindbender is worthy of chopping though, because it is more revered than others?

While I can understand your enthusiasm, realize a couple of things:

-If you are going to pull a bolt, learn how to do it properly. Learn the tools and techniques to remove as much of the bolt as possible, and patch over it well, so it is not visible. Removing a bolt well is not a trivial task.

-Removing bolts will impact the community, and may risk the safety of parties following you. Yes, everyone should be competent, but if someone has heard canyon ABC has bolts, finds they have been pulled, and doesn't have the appropriate skills, serious consequences can occur.

Because of the potential for bad consequences to a person(s), I do not believe bolts should be removed if they have been in situ for very long. If a bolt should be removed, it should occur ASAP after placed. For better or worse, if you let weeks, months, or years go by, then more people will expect it to be there.

Getting the word out on the forums may help, but the forums only represent a small part of those actually out doing canyons.

[Iceaxe]

Here is something that Stevee B once posted that I kept because I thought it was very elegant.....

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

:cool2:

[CarpeyBiggs]

I think we all understand that.... We just want to know if you are going to be the one to yank 'em. If not, should somebody else?

Again, I realize I haven't been around for too long, so I'm just trying to hear out the dialogues on the situation. How often does actual bolt chopping happen? I know that most of the beta-masters eschew a no-bolt ethic, but how many people get torqued enough to go out and actually remove them?

I've been in 6 or 7 canyons in the roost now, and all of them had at least one bolt, with the exception of high spur, and alcatraz. Seriously, RockGremlin and I couldn't believe EF Pasture, which had bolts at every downclimb, it seemed. Doesn't seem like there is really a removal crew out there, save a few isolated incidences.

Perhaps Mindbender is worthy of chopping though, because it is more revered than others?

While I can understand your enthusiasm, realize a couple of things:

-If you are going to pull a bolt, learn how to do it properly. Learn the tools and techniques to remove as much of the bolt as possible, and patch over it well, so it is not visible. Removing a bolt well is not a trivial task.

-Removing bolts will impact the community, and may risk the safety of parties following you. Yes, everyone should be competent, but if someone has heard canyon ABC has bolts, finds they have been pulled, and doesn't have the appropriate skills, serious consequences can occur.

Because of the potential for bad consequences to a person(s), I do not believe bolts should be removed if they have been in situ for very long. If a bolt should be removed, it should occur ASAP after placed. For better or worse, if you let weeks, months, or years go by, then more people will expect it to be there.

Getting the word out on the forums may help, but the forums only represent a small part of those actually out doing canyons.

Thanks Desert, well said. I certainly wasn't planning on doing any chopping myself, and your reasons listed above are exactly why I wouldn't. I am just interested in gauging the likelihood that someone would chop a bolt, or perhaps what precedents have occurred in the past.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: I will venture that any bolt placed in the Mindbenders stands a 99.9% chance of being removed. These drops have been bolted before and the bolts have always been removed in the past.

[snatch]

maybe somebody will snip the bolts.

[Scott P]

How do you know thats the reason the bolter put the bolts in the canyon?

'Cause the person told me. This was before it was discussed on the groups.


How often does actual bolt chopping happen?

I don't know how often it happens, but it does happen. In the Roost especially. Bolts have been removed from several canyons there.


Seriously, RockGremlin and I couldn't believe EF Pasture, which had bolts at every downclimb, it seemed.

You got to be kidding? East Pasture is now a bolt garden? I wonder who did that? Whoever it was should be ashamed. :nono:

I can somewhat see both sides for something like "Mindbender", but not for something like East Pasture. That's just silly. In this case, they should be pulled no matter what.


These drops have been bolted before and the bolts have always been removed in the past.

I knew the fork north of "Mind Bender" was bolted, but was "Mindbender" bolted too? I mean before now.


It might be a good idea if you informed said auther before his new book is sent to the publisher that the bolts will be pulled.

Done.

Anyway, I have heard another group has said they were planning on debolting Twin Corral and North Fork.

If anyone is going to pull bolts and wants me too, I can pass along the info to ______________. You will remain anonymous.

[stefan]

I knew the fork north of "Mind Bender" was bolted, but was "Mindbender" bolted too? I mean before now.


yes, the bolts were last chopped circa may '02.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/8169

[Scott P]

yes, the bolts were last chopped circa may '02.

That's actually the wrong canyon. In 2002, MBC (TJ), plus most of the rest of the canyons group thought that that fork was Mindbender, but it was not. That one is what he now calls "Not Mindbender". The one chopped in 2002 is not the one pictured above with the pothole at the edge of the drop.

See map for which fork TJ now calls Not Mind Bender and which one he now calls Mindbender (which was different in 2002):

http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/400dnotmindbender.jpg

[price1869]

Here is something that Stevee B once posted that I kept because I thought it was very elegant.....

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

:cool2:

Good quote . . . goes for chipping climbing routes too.

[Scott P]

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

Good quote . . . goes for chipping climbing routes too.

Such as Via Ferrata... :wink:

[hesse15]

hei Price ,
are you the new friend of Chippy Chopperone?
:lol8:






Here is something that Stevee B once posted that I kept because I thought it was very elegant.....

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

:cool2:

Good quote . . . goes for chipping climbing routes too.