The Zephyr

[Iceaxe]

Did you see that rude post on canyons? grrrrrr!

I did now.... I really don't worry to much about what Stiles says..... he hates everyone but himself.

This is a long and on going battle..... I think my next project will be a route description called "The Zephyr" and will visit every bar in Moab and end at the city dump. :lol8:

Actually I find it flattering that he mentions me by name in his new book.... I really don't care if folks are cheering or booing.... its when they are quite that scares me.

:2thumbs:

[tanya]

I don't even know who he is. :mrgreen:

[stefan]

what do they say ... any publicity is good publicity

[Iceaxe]

Jim Stiles is the editor of the Moab Zephyr, it is a small fish wrapper that comes out bi-monthly I believe.

And yeah.... I'm a big believer in no such thing as bad publicity.

I'm just getting ready to head out the door in a few minutes to do some canyons. I'll post up a couple of email exchanges I've had with Stiles when I get back if you are interested..... they are pretty funny.... or at least I thought they were. :haha:

But to keep you entertained while I'm gone I'll post something that SUWA recently wrote about him....

Jim Stiles is Utah's Barney Fife
SUWA's 'rainy-day fund' is a drop in the bucket
By Scott Groene

In an April 15 Tribune op-ed, Moab tabloid owner Jim Stiles continued his criticism of environmental organizations, including the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance. His complaint this time is that SUWA has some money in the bank and he'd like us to give it to organizations whose work he prefers.

Part of desert country's magic is that it nourishes eccentricity. Jim is part of that, our own Barney Fife. He's worth having around though, even if we have to clean up after him now and again.

Typically enough, Jim's rant says less about SUWA than about Jim's own curious little world. As its only resident, he's in charge. He gets not only his own opinion but his own facts.

True enough, for almost the first time in our 23-year history, SUWA can pay its bills. Our assets are comparable to those of other regional groups of similar size, scope and influence. What kind of steward are we? Charity Navigator, which rates non-profit organizations, gives SUWA its highest marks for capacity and efficiency.

SUWA's "rainy-day fund," while welcome, is pitifully small, set against the bottomless pockets of an energy industry hell-bent on turning the interior West into a series of roads and well-pads. It's no more than a drop in the bucket compared to Utah counties' inexhaustible flow of taxpayer money for their crusade to turn every cow path and two-track into a spurious "public highway."

Now we may end up defending the Zion-Mojave country against Sen. Bob Bennett's and Rep. Jim Matheson's Washington County Growth and Conservation Act announced at the end of March. The order reflects the emphasis: The package has a good deal more to do with growth than with conservation. It would transfer up to 40 square miles of public land into private hands, allow utility corridors through Zion National Park, and lavish on developers new reservoir and dam sites and a pipeline right of way.

Wilderness, by contrast, is scant: 216,000 acres, half of it in Zion National Park. Park wilderness is important and deserves support. But here it's used in a cynical numbers game to mask the fact that 70 percent of Washington County's deserving wilderness goes on the chopping block.

We're hopeful that negotiations can transform this legislation into something acceptable. But we'll oppose it in anything close to its present form. It purports to follow a "model" used in neighboring Nevada, coupling wilderness with public lands giveaways that would fail by themselves.

A far better model became law earlier this year to protect Utah's Cedar Mountains. It is a wilderness bill. Period.

Yes, SUWA has a bit of a war chest. But it won't take much of a war for it to evaporate like a water drop on a hot desert day. Our only regret is that it has taken so long to reach even this still-precarious point.
---
Scott Groene is the executive director of the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance.

[stefan]

Did you see that rude post on canyons? grrrrrr!

i wouldn't say the post was rude, rather it is the passage from stiles' book that is rude.

also as another post has mentioned, i was also under the impression that the circle of friends was for profit. shane, is it not? or do you make the case that all revenue goes into exploration of new canyons?


is there something wrong in general with paying for beta? well, that's the whole idea of a guidebook, so i'd say not exactly. though, i will admit that i'd prefer a website not charge $25 every year. but that's of course my preference.

i think stiles is balking at shane's leading people to the "newly identified canyons," that this motive is inherently bad. or perhaps it's simply shane's sales pitch/pay-per-view that rubbed him raw. likely the both entwined.

it's hard to disagree with the fact that there are many(!!) issues with the exposure of new areas/canyons ... however, if stiles is targeting shane burrows simply for exposure of such areas, he probably should equally target mike kelsey, since mike is exposing slot canyons at a stunningly dramatic rate, especially with the forthcoming release of his new book. though he doesn't have the circle pitch and one difference is that kelsey's profits are what allows him to survive as it IS his source of income.

on the other hand, some folks even have the expectation that if unpublished canyons are being done, these folks should disclose them ... and for free!

since stiles has become at odds with suwa, it's interesting how he makes his two degrees of separation argument. tries to get that in there any way he can, eh? i wonder ... can we connect shane burrows with kevin bacon?

[tanya]

[quote=tanya]Did you see that rude post on canyons? grrrrrr!

i wouldn't say the post was rude, rather it is the passage from stiles' book that is rude.

[quote]

Oh! ~blush~ I should have read it all or paid attention to what I was reading. :mrgreen:

I really need to get away from the computer today before I really get myself in trouble. :lol8:

[montanablur]

Stiles has some good points and others that are little to self rightous for me. I for one am not a fan of guide books. That Keasley (sp?) character dissapoints me to no end...

Having worked in the outdoor industry on the media side for over 15 years, I have never been part of a story that directly revealed any unpublished locations. In a sense keeping it a bit of a secret.

I don't know what exchanges happened between shane and Stiles, but I can imagine he was more than a little pissed about the climb utah site. Which I personally regard as a double edged sword, the beta invaluable, yet the people it will attract unwanted... But such is the situation we are in, as people learn about the wonders of the Colorado Plateau and International travel diminishes we will see more and more people in the canyons and on the mesas.

Unfortuneatly for Mr. Stiles he longs for a time that has passed when his hero Ed Abbey lived up the road and the desert was a place to be feared not explored. Mr. Stiles is trying to follow in Abbey's footsteps by stirring the pot and causing a commotion, but seems to be alienating himself more than helping anything with his tired startegy.

The plateau is not going to be closed to people, they seem to roam wherever they like, but we can educate those new comers, welcome them and show them that it is a place to be respected and cherished. Stiles tacticts will only cause resentment.

[Iceaxe]

Just walked in the door and I'll bring you guys up to speed when I get more time. But just to get things started....

This "new" piece from his book is an old article he wrote in his bird cage liner back in June 2005. It's all basically two year old stuff. I sent him a letter back in July 2005 correcting the errors in his articule but I guess Stiles didn't really care to correct facts for his new book. Here is Stiles original article:

THE GREENING of WILDERNE$$ IN UTAH
http://www.canyoncountryzephyr.com/june-july2005/gtw.htm

And for the record.... The price of a Climb-Utah Circle of Friends membership has never been $15. It began at $20 and was jumped to $25 in 2005. Back in 1998 I did have anther website on Homestead where I sold some canyon beta for $15. But that was something totally different and I killed the Homestead site in 1999. Maybe Jim has just become confused in his later years, I hear age does that to some. If so, I'm flattered that he has followed my writing career since the late 90's.

Where Stiles gets the rest of his info is beyond me. If he had of contacted me I would have been happy to answer all his questions.

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Which I personally regard as a double edged sword, the beta invaluable, yet the people it will attract unwanted... But such is the situation we are in, as people learn about the wonders of the Colorado Plateau and International travel diminishes we will see more and more people in the canyons and on the mesas.

Welcome to the group, montanablur.

You might be under the impression that many people here share your view that more people are unwanted. I realize this is a shared value among a certain crowd, to the point of being a basic assumption, but this forum draws from a diverse audience and that value is not shared by many, including me. I believe in sharing the people's land with the people that own it.

As a rhetorical device, we could divide the spectrum into:

The Old/New West: "we should have closed the door, 30 years ago" (Stiles)

The New West: "we should close the door now, since I am here" (Montanablur?)

The New New West: "why close the door? we should learn to share" (ME!)

Tom

[Iceaxe]

The New New West: "why close the door? we should learn to share" (ME!)

Nice..... I share Tom's feelings :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

After the THE GREENING of WILDERNE$$ IN UTAH articule I wrote the following letter to Stiles and told him he had permission to publish it..... Please understand at this time I am well aware of the fact that there is no way in hell I can beat Stiles in his own fish wrapper when he has complete control of the context.... but this looked like fun to me so what the hell..... lets get out my big wood handled spoon and stir the pot a little.....

Here is the orginal letter I wrote:

I would like to thank Mr. Stiles for mentioning my website, www.Climb-Utah.com and it's foremost outdoor program 'The Circle of Friends', in his article 'The Greening of the Wilderne$$ in Utah History'. The publicity generated has been large, positive and welcome.

At Climb-Utah.com we work hard to make Southern Utah enjoyable and accessible to those who are interested in its outdoor opportunities. We look forward to providing the public with information, maps and route descriptions to all of Mr. Style's beloved and clandestine places. With our help there is no need to spend years as a local resident or National Park employee to gain the maximum value from outdoor recreation in Southern Utah. We look forward to reading future rants from Mr. Style's.

Shane Burrows
www.Climb-Utah.com


Here is what was actually printed in the Canyon Country Zephyr:
http://www.canyoncountryzephyr.com/aug-sept2005/feedback.html

FROM THE MAN WHO SELLS SECRETS FOR 15 BUCKS

This email is meant to be a comment for publication in the next FEEDBACK section of the Zephyr!!! I would like to thank Mr. Stiles for mentioning my website, and its foremost outdoor program 'The Circle of Friends', in his article 'The Greening of the Wilderne$$ in Utah History'. The publicity generated has been large, positive and welcome. We work hard to make Southern Utah enjoyable and accessible to those who are interested in its outdoor opportunities. We look forward to providing the public with information, maps and route descriptions to all of Mr. Style's beloved and clandestine places. With our help there is no need to spend years as a local resident or National Park employee to gain the maximum value from outdoor recreation in Southern Utah. We look forward to reading future rants from Mr. Style's.

Shane Burrows
Draper, Utah

As you can see they are almost the same letter.... :lol8:
It does give you some good insight into editorial liberties

.

[Iceaxe]

Don't leave now, things are just about to get good.... :popcorn:

So here is the next letter I wrote Stiles.... you will note at this point we are now on a first name bases:


Hmmmm..... this is kinda interesting..... How many changes, errors and omissions can you find between the two letters?
Come on Jim..... let's see a little testicular fortitude!!! Print it like I wrote it.....

No Guts, No Glory
Go big or go home.....

Whats the matter.... afraid..... hahaha.... chickenshit.....

Shane


Here was the Stiles reply:

I'll tell you what.. I'll print your latest email in the NEXT Zephyr, along with my explanation why I removed your web address...you can continue to enhance your reputation for sensitivity and articulation through the pages of the Zephyr by just being yourself.

Cheers,
J

.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Indeed. I like where this headed.... :popcorn:

Patiently awaiting more. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

Dang.... at this point I think I might be getting to Stiles warm and sensitive side.... So, as most of you know I can't let a good thing like this go so I wrote the following letter:

Jim,

We greatly appreciate your help in expanding visitation to the Climb-Utah.com website. Your hard work in enhancing our reputation, as the leading provider of secret route information to extraordinary places has been tremendous.

Two months ago most of your readers were probably unaware of our existence. And now we have been featured in your rants for two issues in a row, with promise of a third. That is outstanding. We are firm believers in "No such thing as bad publicity".

If you need any more cannon fodder for that fish wrapper of yours you just let us know. We are filled with insightful observations, controversy, humor and quotable remarks. We are also available for interviews, barbeques and bachelorette parties.

Your friend,

Shane Burrows
Climb Utah - Canyoneering & Mountaineering
http://Climb-Utah.com


Mr. Stiles Reply:


Seriously, I think the "haha...afraid...chickenshit" email will suffice for the next issue. Otherwise consider refraining from emailing me again until you graduate from high school.

Happy $$$ trails,
JS

At which point I understand Stiles took his ball and tabloid and went home.... Hope you enjoyed our show.... we'll be here all week with a matinee perform on Saturday.

:rockon:

[rockgremlin]

HAHA!!

When will people learn....THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BAD PRESS!!

Heck, you should cut Jim off a check for all of the generous publicity and advertising he's done for your site. :haha:

[CarpeyBiggs]

Couldn't the same be said for what we are doing for the Zephyr right now? I've been looking online, and I'm sold. I will now regularly read the Zephyr. </sarcasm>

If for no other reason it is great comedy....

[montanablur]

Which I personally regard as a double edged sword, the beta invaluable, yet the people it will attract unwanted... But such is the situation we are in, as people learn about the wonders of the Colorado Plateau and International travel diminishes we will see more and more people in the canyons and on the mesas.

Welcome to the group, montanablur.

You might be under the impression that many people here share your view that more people are unwanted. I realize this is a shared value among a certain crowd, to the point of being a basic assumption, but this forum draws from a diverse audience and that value is not shared by many, including me. I believe in sharing the people's land with the people that own it.

As a rhetorical device, we could divide the spectrum into:

The Old/New West: "we should have closed the door, 30 years ago" (Stiles)

The New West: "we should close the door now, since I am here" (Montanablur?)

The New New West: "why close the door? we should learn to share" (ME!)

Tom

I'm not under any impressions about this board or it's members other than a love of Utah, strong love... I have only met and spent time with two, so I'm not going to pass judgement.

I do have to say that I don't agree with you piling me in with the statement, "we should close the door now, since I am here." I am all for keeping access open, available, welcoming and educating new comers... As seen later on in my post.

"The plateau is not going to be closed to people, they seem to roam wherever they like, but we can educate those new comers, welcome them and show them that it is a place to be respected and cherished. Stiles tacticts will only cause resentment."

I suppose I come from a time when beta was gained from who you knew and what campfire you sat around. I'm not just talking about canyons, but climbs, MTB trails, backcountry powder stashes... That secret knowledge that was passed from friend to friend on a tailgate. Aaah nostalgia...

[Iceaxe]

That secret knowledge that was passed from friend to friend on a tailgate. Aaah nostalgia...

With the internet things have really changed.... the life of secret places is now measured in dog years. The old tactics of passing beta among friends is a dead art. Those who cling to the old ways will eventually lose the battle. Those who adapt quickly will be leaders of the community. The key now is to educate the public, and what better way to educate then with electrons moving at the speed of light.

My 2 cents.

[montanablur]

That secret knowledge that was passed from friend to friend on a tailgate. Aaah nostalgia...

With the internet things have really changed.... the life of secret places is now measured in dog years. The old tactics of passing beta among friends is a dead art. Those who cling to the old ways will eventually lose the battle. Those who adapt quickly will be leaders of the community. The key now is to educate the public, and what better way to educate then with electrons moving at the speed of light.

My 2 cents.

Oh, I agree... I don't know about leaders of community, but the old ways of smoke signals and secret hanshakes is gone... I'm still nostalgic...

As with any knowledge comes resposibility and you hit the nail on the head with educating the public. Stiles strategey will only cause resentment, where as I feel your strategy will actually teach people a thing or two... Maybe even three.

Cheers!

[Iceaxe]

Oh, I agree... I don't know about leaders of community, but the old ways of smoke signals and secret hanshakes is gone... I'm still nostalgic...

I think a fella like Stiles is missing a golden opportunity to educate the new and lead from the front...... Yes, I also loved the old days when I could hike Little Wild Horse and not see anther soul. But those days are gone.....

[stefan]

[quote=montanablur]Oh, I agree... I don't know about leaders of community, but the old ways of smoke signals and secret hanshakes is gone... I'm still nostalgic...

I think a fella like Stiles is missing a golden opportunity to educate the new and lead from the front...... Yes, I also loved the old days when I could hike Little Wild Horse and not see anther soul. But those days are gone.....

[rockgremlin]

Sooooo....you wanna keep things secret in the name of "wilderness conservation?" Kinda like....if the public doesn't know about it, then they can't go enjoy.......errrrrrr....I mean ruin it?

[Iceaxe]

... moderation/conservation goes a long way in along many angles.

Exactly.... and I think Stiles is missing a golden opportunity to help guide folks on a moderate and conservative course.

Stiles current beating of a dead horse (the past) accomplishes what?

If folks stop buying guidebooks, authors will stop publishing them. But we both know that ain't gonna happen. So better to direct your energies in a constructive approach.

:popcorn:

[stefan]

Sooooo....you wanna keep things secret in the name of "wilderness conservation?" Kinda like....if the public doesn't know about it, then they can't go enjoy.......errrrrrr....I mean ruin it?

uh oh ... there's that phrase ... keep things "secret." first off, i reject the premise of your statement. there is a whole world in between keep things secret and post a route on the internet ... and second, the wilderness conservation was going to be an analogy just as the logging was. so you can't just connect the dots there, as there is much more to the issue ...

my point was simply this: yes, times have changed, yes, the internet has and will change even more the spread of information about everything including the most precious places in southern utah and the rest of the world. the internet is powerful ... i would argue that, just as with science and politics, it's how you use that power which determines whether it is good or bad, as the changes and ramifications can be drastic. hence, just because you can, doesn't mean that you should. i think the effect of the increasing rate of disclosure needs to be appreciated more than it does. if it's exponential, then it has intense implications. and while some argue that this explosion of information is inevitable, the apparently high rate of the explosion doesn't need to be.

however, to contrast this point i wholeheartedly agree with shane and tom jones and rich carlson, amongst many others, who have realized the power of the internet to educate and promote the ethics of setting foot in these wild lands and the current best skills and techniquies for descending these canyons. this is perhaps the BEST use of this power.

[Lizzard]

:popcorn:

[quote]At the Worst Possible Time to Ask...
THE ZEPHYR NEEDS YOUR HELP

As a Zephyr reader, you have shared my grave and longstanding concerns for the future of our planet and have been painfully aware that we humans cannot maintain the extravagant consumptive lifestyle that seems to, in effect, define us as a species. Now, our "bad behavior" threatens life as we know it on all levels, in all corners of our planet.

Yet even I was shocked at the sudden collapse of the global economy last autumn, a result of the very greed and avarice that has led us to the precarious environmental threat we see today. The meltdown came just six months after I announced the end of the print Zephyr and a new beginning with the online 'cyberprint' edition which hopefully begins in April.

Now with many of us digging deep just to keep our heads above water, I have the unpleasant task of asking for your support to keep this 20 year old independent publication alive. The Zephyr's future was already a worry before the meltdown. I had cut costs wherever I could; finally abandoning the paper Zephyr was my last option. By doing so, I have eliminated most of the printing and distribution costs but there is nothing left to chop but the Zephyr itself. And please understand I am not seeking financial support to maintain a $100,000 annual salary for its publisher, or even $50,000. Or even $25,000.

If I can find enough revenue to keep beans on the table and my health insurance premiums paid, I'll keep the Zephyr going. The current Zephyr web site receives a solid 6,000 unique visitors a month and we have already accumulated an email list in excess of 4,000 additional names. With some significant additional links, The Zephyr has the potential to reach far beyond the readership of the paper Z. My hope is that the new "Planet Earth Edition" can help start a dialogue about the critical issues that face us, from a broader more culturally and geographically diverse readership.

In addition, the old Zephyr web site will disappear and a new one will take its place. The "cyberprint" Zephyr web site will recreate the paper Zephyr onscreen. It will look EXACTLY like the Zephyr you've known for 20 years. With a laptop you can even still sit in your favorite chair to read it, though I don't recommend carrying it to the toilet.

This publication has strived to be an honest and independent voice for two decades, regardless of the consequences. Subsequently, we have invoked the ire of many political and environmental ideologues, from both ends of the spectrum. On one level, it told me I was doing my job well, but I admit that it's also been painful. I recall what my old friend, the late Jim Conklin used to say when the world felt a bit unkind: "Everybody hates me. Nobody loves me. I think I'll eat worms."

The Zephyr occupies a minority voice in the whole scheme of things. We believe the crisis facing humans and the planet is real and dangerous. But we do not believe that profit-driven green technology and carbon credits are enough. We cannot buy and grow our way out of this crisis. THAT'S how we got IN to this mess. Our maddening---growth at any cost culture--- is killing us and the very precious planet we want to save. We must embrace a future very different from the life we live now. My hope is that the "Planet Earth" online edition can contribute to the discussion, generate debate, and from it

[ratagonia]

:popcorn:


At the Worst Possible Time to Ask...
THE ZEPHYR NEEDS YOUR HELP

As a Zephyr reader, you have shared my grave and longstanding Jim

C'mon Shane. Buck up. Climb_Utah should start advertising in the Zephry...

T :moses:

[Scott Card]

:popcorn:


At the Worst Possible Time to Ask...
THE ZEPHYR NEEDS YOUR HELP

As a Zephyr reader, you have shared my grave and longstanding Jim

C'mon Shane. Buck up. Climb_Utah should start advertising in the Zephry...

T :moses: :lol8: :lol8:

[Lizzard]

Great headline - Climb-Utah saves Zephyr :roflol:

[quote]Here are the Zephyr ad rates and membership costs for the Backbone... and please remember....
YOU CAN NOW PAY ONLINE WITH YOUR CREDIT CARD or PAYPAL
www.canyoncountryzephyr.com
Look for the box at the top of the home page and CLICK.

ADVERTISING RATES:
1/8 page: $59
1/4 page: $89
1/3 page: $120