Rapides

[Wasatch]

Went to a couple of stores yesterday, and I notices that both sell rapides now. One store had them at $3 the other $5 or $6. They told me these were tested, compared to the one's I got at a hardware store. Has anyone noticed the difference? I hear Walmart sells some as well.

[Brian in SLC]

Went to a couple of stores yesterday, and I notices that both sell rapides now. One store had them at $3 the other $5 or $6. They told me these were tested, compared to the one's I got at a hardware store. Has anyone noticed the difference? I hear Walmart sells some as well.

I wonder if they really are tested...

Merry Hankster, what say ye?

You might also try the dollar store. Got some for, uhh, let's see, a buck per. All the way up to 7/16" size. Yowser.

I think the only chance they are tested is if they say "maillon rapide" on them, and you can see the "dinks" in the ends of the link where they were load tested individually (half rated strength?). I've got a ton of them, and, have never seen the testing marks on them.

More likely, they destructively test one or so out of the lot.

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

Unless you are replacing all rapids you find in the canyons I'm guessing you do over 1/2 your rappeling on the cheapo "untested" version.

[Wasatch]

Brian,

Thanks for the Dollar Store heads up.

Shane,

Your right, most I've seen so far are the same one's I have.

Well, I bought the WalMart quick links $1.95ea. nice and shiny.

[AJ]

The better rapides that I have seen will specify a working load limit on them (WLL880 is common). I have seen some rapides that don't give the load limit at all (I avoid those) and some that have had a lower lower limit (some down below 400lbs.) While those are probably fine, again, I avoid them. If I come down to a rap that has a rapide without a WLL stamp, I'll usually replace it. Is your life really worth $2?

If you are looking for a cheap, safe alternative; go to Home Depot and buy a section of chain. You can have them cut every other link in the chain so you get half the amount of individual links (they won't like it, but they will do it.) That's the best low cost option in my opinion; super high strength, and durable. (Has a much higher WLL than screw gate quick links since it's solid; but the obvious downside that you have to untie the webbing to add it. However, my experience has shown that if the rapide is suspect, the webbing usually looks worse...) While I don't remember what I exactly paid last time, I think it was 3000 lb WLL chain, for less than $1 a link...

To me, my life is not worth risking a possible failure of cheap crap (Walmart Quick Links) - I'll pay the extra couple of bucks to have the better QL's or use the chain links for cheap; but that's only my opinion. I could be wrong....

[Brian in SLC]

The better rapides that I have seen will specify a working load limit on them (WLL880 is common). I have seen some rapides that don't give the load limit at all (I avoid those) and some that have had a lower lower limit (some down below 400lbs.)

"Better" is pretty relative.

I think its fine that stuff is stamped, but, really, it doesn't mean that any testing was done on the link itself. Or the chain. Really doesn't buy you much seeing some arbitrary SWL or some such stamped onto a rapide. Unless its backed up by some type of test data, and, there just isn't any test data for this stuff. Not even the CE rated stuff, methinks (again, Merry Hankster, chime in!).

I think I'd almost prefer rapides over chain. At least with a rapide, if there's something major wrong with it, they'd never be able to squash in some threads and attach a threaded nut to it (and may be possible to see if there was anything wrong with the material, etc). With chain, you just hope there's nothing wrong, and go with that. Plus, rapides are pretty easy to install on in situ webbing, etc.

Its pretty interesting what us climber/canyoneer folks will trust our lives to. If this stuff were somehow PPE, industry wise, it'd be required to be load tested prior to use (and probably periodically) regardless of whatever is stamped on it.

Most of that stuff is pretty bomber in any form. Especially any steel link that is 5/16" or bigger. Could there be an internal flaw hidden inside that could fail castatrophically? Maybe. But, probably not.

Guess you could always use a chain link for an ATC....(seen it done, quick effectively).

Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances!

-Brian in SLC

[Jaxx]

how about rappel rings? Are those rated? what are the pros and cons of the rap ring?

[Scott P]

Are those rated?

Yes, but I don't remember what they are rated.


what are the pros and cons of the rap ring?

Pros:

Much lighter
Rope is easier to pull

Cons:

Usually not as strong (but still adequate)
More expensive
Don't last as long in the canyons(?)

I usually just go with rap rings. They might not last as long (?) but all the canyons I've done lately see so little traffic that it doesn't matter anyway. They are stong enough.

[Jaxx]

One thing with the rings is that you cant open it like the rapide. Mabey that won't be a problem though. I am a newb at canyoneering and anchors, so mabey with experience will come a preference.

[Iceaxe]

how about rappel rings?

Something to keep in mind from a safety stand point.... rappel rings are supposed/designed to be used in pairs. I'm guessing this is due in part to the climbers redundancy methods.

I know in the canyons I often see them used individually. Food for thought.

And Scott left out the biggest con of all for rap rings, and that is you have to thread the webbing through the rings. That little screw gate on the rapids is really handy on many occations.

:popcorn:

[Brian in SLC]

how about rappel rings?

Something to keep in mind from a safety stand point.... rappel rings are supposed/designed to be used in pairs. I'm guessing this is due in part to the climbers redundancy methods.

Some are, some aren't.

I'd use either the Fixe or the Omega Pacific ones single without hesitation.

Fixe also makes a climbing anchor with chain from two bolts connected to a single rappel ring. These rings are rated over 10,000lbs in strength, I seem to recall. Very common in Europe to go off one of these single rings.

I'd also use one of the thin SMC aluminum rappel rings single, but, I'd hate to leave it single on a popular anchor. Great for unplanned rappels, though, where the rope pull is dubious especially.

I leave a TON of Fixe rappel rings (as well as rapides). Bomber.

-Brian in SLC

[Scott P]

And Scott left out the biggest con of all for rap rings, and that is you have to thread the webbing through the rings.

Unless the sling is already there what is the disadvantage? You slip the rings on and tie the anchor and don't have to screw anything. :ne_nau:

[hank moon]

I only install rapides made by PEGUET ("Maillon Rapide" brand). These are made by an ISO 9001 company and many of them are CE labeled. The "no-name" rapides are sketchy. Tom Jones and Sonny Lawrence did tensile testing on "no name" rapides and found a huge variance in MBS (i.e. quality). How cheap is your life?

Rap rings: the ubiquitous SMC aluminum ring is very lightweight and designed to be used singly for one use. If there is any appreciable wear on a single SMC ring, it should be backed up (they are often found doubled in the field). SMC rings should not be used for trade routes, period. Great for wilderness routes, though.

Other brands come in steel, Ti, etc. and can be considerably more durable than the SMC ring. These were generally designed for use on trade routes and can withstand repeated pull-downs.

Other: chain links and split rings should be avoided by all but homeless canyoneers - they are not intended for life safety applications. Some may think it is resourceful, innovative, or frugal to use such trash - it's not. It's just adding risk w/o benefit (unless you're homeless in which case there are warmer places to hang than canyons). Chain links often have burrs and sharp points from the plating process. If you do use them (not recommended), be sure to carefully inspect every one of them for sharp points/edges and possible damage from the expert chain cutter at your local hardware store.

[Scott Card]

Other: chain links and split rings should be avoided by all but homeless canyoneers -

:roflol: I don't know why but I laughed out loud.

[Brian in SLC]

I only install rapides made by PEGUET ("Maillon Rapide" brand). These are made by an ISO 9001 company and many of them are CE labeled. The "no-name" rapides are sketchy. Tom Jones and Sonny Lawrence did tensile testing on "no name" rapides and found a huge variance in MBS (i.e. quality). How cheap is your life?

Finally you pop in...

I'd really like to see that pull test data. I remember when Tom broke a couple of them little 1/4" no name rapides and they both broke around 6200 lbs within a 100 pounds of each other.

CE label buys you what, they test one from a lot to failure? And don't load test any from the rest of the lot? Dunno, just asking.

One thing nice about ISO 9000 companies...when they have a gear failure, they might actually be able to figure out what may have caused it...(chuckle). Keeps them auditors busy...

My life is worth exactly 1 dollar. And the odds of that one dollar 3/8" or 7/16" rapide busting under any rappelling load? Almost nil.

Variation in data, but, still loads of margin??

Climbed with your canyon partner today...purty fun. 6 pitches after work at Tahquitz from L.A/O.C. Sweetness!

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

I'm still using the cheapo rapids. I work with this crap everyday in the engineering and mining industry. IMHO, the chances of one of the cheapo rapids failing on rappel is somewhere between slim to none.

YMMV

[hank moon]

Finally you pop in...

Had to set up some targets...you seemed so desperate!


I'd really like to see that pull test data. I remember when Tom broke a couple of them little 1/4" no name rapides and they both broke around 6200 lbs within a 100 pounds of each other.

Ask Tom for it - the variance in their very small sample was huge - in the thousands, not hundreds. The "odds" might not be what you think they are. Maybe "they" don't inspect welds, batch test each production lot, or test/inspect raw materials. Most of that kind of work is done by hand, whereas the manufacturing is largely done by machines / automatic controls. The low cost of Asian quick-links probably doesn't stem so much from cheap labor as it does cheap materials and poor quality assurance practices.


My life is worth exactly 1 dollar.

Only a dollar? I

[Iceaxe]

just ask Shane about the polypropylene ski rope he used to use a few years back... :eek2:

That was the best rope ever. If it can anchor a 6000# boat in a Powell wind storm its good enough in my book. :nod:

That rope had a lot of raps on it, including a few hundred by Mr. Moon. I retired that rope after Sandthrax because Chris pooped all over it. :lol8:

:popcorn:

[hank moon]

That rope had a lot of raps on it, including a few hundred by Mr. Moon. I retired that rope after Sandthrax because Chris pooped all over it.

Dude, you need super blue green algae or something to clear out the cobwebs. I rapped on that rope about 10 times total, nothing over 15'...and it was my rope that got pooped on...yours would have disintegrated!

[mrabe1979]

I buy my quick links at the Home Depot. They have both stainless steel and zinc plated links. The stainless steel ones are around 5$ or 6$ for the 5/16 and the zinc ones are $1.94. They are both Maillon brand and SWL is 1760lbs on the zinc plated ones and 2000lbs on the stainless ones. I always go with the zinc plated links and have never had a doubt :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

I only install rapides made by PEGUET ("Maillon Rapide" brand). These are made by an ISO 9001 company and many of them are CE labeled. The "no-name" rapides are sketchy. Tom Jones and Sonny Lawrence did tensile testing on "no name" rapides and found a huge variance in MBS (i.e. quality). How cheap is your life?

Finally you pop in...

I'd really like to see that pull test data. I remember when Tom broke a couple of them little 1/4" no name rapides and they both broke around 6200 lbs within a 100 pounds of each other.

CE label buys you what, they test one from a lot to failure? And don't load test any from the rest of the lot? Dunno, just asking.

One thing nice about ISO 9000 companies...when they have a gear failure, they might actually be able to figure out what may have caused it...(chuckle). Keeps them auditors busy...

My life is worth exactly 1 dollar. And the odds of that one dollar 3/8" or 7/16" rapide busting under any rappelling load? Almost nil.

Variation in data, but, still loads of margin??

Climbed with your canyon partner today...purty fun. 6 pitches after work at Tahquitz from L.A/O.C. Sweetness!

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

Yes and No. First test was 1/4" no name rapides, likely from the same box. About 6000 lbs, pretty close grouping. Second test Sonny did was more pieces, but clearly from at least two manufacturers. Quite different results on the two 'batches'. One set was very, very bad. Conclusion: without a brand name on em, you don't know squat about what you are getting.

CE mark/ISO9000: can't speak for other manufacturers, and I can't speak for BD either, because I'm not allowed. I can say, BD never tests ONE of something and draws a conclusion. BD takes a statistical sampling from each batch and tests that. The number of tests performed varies with the number of items in the batch, and the degree of concern about the controllability of the manufacturing processes. When a product first gets made, the sampling rate is high. Once confidence has been built up, the sampling rate can be reduced, but ONE was NEVER considered a statistically significant sampling.

CE does not require that each piece be individually tested. It does require that the samples tested by the CE certifying lab pass certain criteria, and that a quality control plan is in place so that future things manufactured should meet the same spec. On certain items, the easiest way to do this is by a half-strength test. On other items, not. CE is pretty non-specific about this, ISO 9000 wants to see a quality plan that meets certain criteria, but does not otherwise specify.

Bottom line: how to assure you have the best equipment available: buy brand names. how to roll the dice each time you go out? buy stuff that does not have a brand name on it. Who knows what you are getting? No one.

Tom

[hank moon]

Bottom line: ... Who knows what you are getting? No one.

An "industry insider" told me this little tale:

Popular sunglass manufacturer COOLITO once rec'd a late shipment of sunglasses from China (made to spec for COOLITO by HOLIER THAN DIVERSITY BARGAIN MANUFACTURING CONCERN). Yeah, the names...

Routine QA (COOLITO) picked up a major problem with the shipment: the lenses were not made of polycarbonate as specified. Ok, uh...can we sell them? Of course not. These shades are advertised in BIG OUTDOOR MAGAZINE as having: "Polycarbonate lenes: Shatter-proof and scratch-resistant." We don't even know what this stuff is yet. We're waiting to hear from HB (Holy Bargain) tomorrow. They're gonna vidcon their plastics expert in tomorrow's meeting...

Ok, blah blah blah...lots of boring details. Blah.

So finally the lens matierial is discovered. COOLITO had to pay to have a chemical (or whatever) analysis run on the lenses. Why? Because HB had no record of what material had been used. I can't remember the name, but no matter. It had many syllables, sounded high-tech, and was unfathomable by 99+% of the population. And the coatings didn't stick to it properly. And all inspected samples of sunglass were showing problems. And it had also been discovered that there were TWO different lens materials in the sunglasses. And so on.

In the end, COOLITO discovered the reason for the FUBAR: too many ASSumptions in the contract (or out of it). The HB had not been able to obtain the polycarbonate specified in the contract, so they just

[Brian in SLC]

Yes and No. First test was 1/4" no name rapides, likely from the same box. About 6000 lbs, pretty close grouping. Second test Sonny did was more pieces, but clearly from at least two manufacturers. Quite different results on the two 'batches'. One set was very, very bad. Conclusion: without a brand name on em, you don't know squat about what you are getting.

You remember the test data and size of rapides? Very very bad, as in, only 5000 lbs for a 1/4" rapide?

Any chance you guys busted a 5/16" one, or bigger? I'd imagine you'd need some impressive tooling to bust a 3/8" rapide. Gotta be well over 10,000 lbs, above most Instron's limits, methinks. Scary.


CE mark/ISO9000: can't speak for other manufacturers, and I can't speak for BD either, because I'm not allowed. I can say, BD never tests ONE of something and draws a conclusion. BD takes a statistical sampling from each batch and tests that. The number of tests performed varies with the number of items in the batch, and the degree of concern about the controllability of the manufacturing processes. When a product first gets made, the sampling rate is high. Once confidence has been built up, the sampling rate can be reduced, but ONE was NEVER considered a statistically significant sampling.

Yeah, BD's three sigma testing program is explained on their website. Too bad they don't make rapides...!

What is significant, is, that they do seem to load test, to half the rated strength (rating determined by the batch testing to failure, the three sigma thing), all carabiners. So at least you know that they have been yanked to catch any gross defects. And every now and again they do catch a bad one, I seem to recall...


Bottom line: how to assure you have the best equipment available: buy brand names. how to roll the dice each time you go out? buy stuff that does not have a brand name on it. Who knows what you are getting? No one.

Well, even with name brand, unless their's data on every piece, or, unless every piece is tested to half rated strength, or anything for that matter, you can pay all you want, and you still won't know what you're really getting.

Which is kinda amazing, when you compare industrial safety requirements to climbing/canyoneering equipment. Not saying that the industry should go overboard in design or testing, but, really, a no name 3/8" rapide for a buck beats a 8mm rapide with a fancy CE stamp on it for 6 bucks. Individually, they both get the same amount of load testing, which is none.

You could take the worst pig iron and make a 3/8" rapide and still have a ton of margin for rappellling loads. My bet is that most testing apparatus couldn't break a no name 3/8" rapide.

If were me, and I was using a thinner 8mm rapide for a connection on my harness, I'd probably do some type of testing to convince myself that it didn't have any gross failure issues.

I should try to get some Instron time...

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[hank moon]

really, a no name 3/8" rapide for a buck beats a 8mm rapide with a fancy CE stamp on it for 6 bucks.

Agreed...sorta - but only because 2 bux gets you two.


Individually, they both get the same amount of load testing, which is none.

You mean proof testing. True, rapides aren't proof tested. But the good ones are batch tested. Materials are batch tested, controlled, etc. So, there is some control over the final product. Rapide-X? Quien sabe?

It'd be easy for a group of folks to do a mass buy on "good" rapides and knock the cost down. I sure wouldn't pay 6 bux for a single "leaver" rapide.