Chambers

[diabolic]

Does anyone know where this is
http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0703roost/indexc.htm

[stefan]

Does anyone know where this is
http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0703roost/indexc.htm

it will be revealed, in more places than one, in due time

[rockgremlin]

Hello there 'diabolic' - welcome to the site! :2thumbs:


Chambers.....let's see here....I heard talk of this canyon mentioned a little while back...I'm almost 99.9% sure I know where this is. Give me a sec to dig through my notes and double check GoogleEarth...


Stay tuned... :2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

Give this a try:

38N 20'18"
110W 31'28"

I haven't done it yet, but I'm about 99.99% sure about those coords.

WARNING!!! This canyon is currently beta-less. Route conditions are unknown -- go at your own risk!!!!!!

[marc olivares]

it will be revealed, in more places than one, in due time

come on now Stefan, dont be THAT guy

if you know something, help the guy out
but dont taunt, that's lame :roll:
and your not like that

if the spot was all that secret, Tom would not have posted photos on his site or broadcast the name.

[Iceaxe]

Sweet.... here are the rest of the slots in the area. I noticed these slots about 2 years ago on a satellite map but haven't done any of them yet.

Paraphrasing "the author".... "I don't know any of the silly names". :lol8:

[stefan]

it will be revealed, in more places than one, in due time

come on now Stefan, dont be THAT guy

if you know something, help the guy out
but dont taunt, that's lame :roll:
and your not like that

if the spot was all that secret, Tom would not have posted photos on his site or broadcast the name.

first off ... i don't believe that it's wise for anyone to broadband coordinates of difficult canyons without beta. if they haven't even done the canyon it would seem more problematic

second ... tom mentioned in his rave said that he was writing up a route description, and i thought tom's beta would be the way to go ... AND figured diabolilc likely read this. subtlety not taunting ... sheesh.

third ... well ...

[rockgremlin]

Sorry....I didn't know posting the coords would be such a transgression. I'll amend my post to include a warning.

Sheesh....!

[ajroadtrips]

Does anyone know where this is
http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0703roost/indexc.htm

Diabolic, welcome to the ultra-competitive-high-stakes-world of canyoneering beta! Some in the community would sell their own mother for a choice canyon. I suspect a few likely already have.

The stakes are high in this fast paced world.

If your new to this arena, my advice? Wait awhile, and the secret is bound to be revealed. Once trip reports and photos begin showing up on the internet, the secret is walking the green mile. Ego is not very good at keeping secrets.

My 2 cents,
deserthiker

[rockgremlin]

Diabolic, welcome to the ultra-competitive-high-stakes-world of canyoneering beta!


:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

Seriously, this is getting out of hand. I've been sitting on this beta for about 3 months now. I wouldn't have splashed it out there if someone hadn't asked for it. But since someone asked....what was I gonna do....ignore him? Or even better, reply that I knew where it was, but wasn't going to tell....neener, neeeeener, neeeeener!! :roll:

[Scott P]

The canyon will be featured in Kelsey's new book.

[rockgremlin]

The canyon will be featured in Kelsey's new book.

Any release dates on that btw?

[hank moon]

Post deleted by author.

[Iceaxe]

Any release dates on that btw?

A couple weeks ago MK told me he was hoping for about November?

[ajroadtrips]

The canyon will be featured in Kelsey's new book.

Any release dates on that btw?

Sorry, but I think it's a secret..... :roflol:

[hank moon]

first off ... i don't believe that it's wise for anyone to broadband coordinates of difficult canyons without beta. if they haven't even done the canyon it would seem more problematic.

Teradittos. Also applies to people who distribute sub-beta about undone slots.

[rockgremlin]

Sorry, but I think it's a secret..... :roflol:


:roflol: You're on a roll deserthiker...

[rockgremlin]

Teradittos. Also applies to people who distribute sub-beta about undone slots.


OK, now this opens up a whole new topic. Let's say that someone -- anyone goes and does Chambers from the coords I posted -- and then gets injured because they were unprepared.

IS THAT MY FAULT?!

[Iceaxe]

OK, now this opens up a whole new topic. Let's say that someone -- anyone goes and does Chambers from the coords I posted -- and then gets injured because they were unprepared.

It may or may not be your fault..... but legally you are protected under the freedom of speech. The freedom of speech is probably the only reason guidebooks and websites can exist. Otherwise every tourist who twisted their ankle would be sueing the author, the publisher, rockgremlin, uutah, the web host, yada, yada....

:popcorn:

[hank moon]

OK, now this opens up a whole new topic. Let's say that someone -- anyone goes and does Chambers from the coords I posted -- and then gets injured because they were unprepared.

IS THAT MY FAULT?!

#1 Pretty irresponsible to post something like a map with lines on it w/o any other meaningful beta. If some moron does take that map out and get hurt, you probably won't be toasting about it afterwards.

#2 May not be your fault, but that won't stop you from getting sued. In this crazy bed that we have made for ourselves (called the U.S. "justice" system), you can be sued for just about anything and YOU have to pay for your own defense - not them. Just to say "it's not my fault" in a court can cost 15-30K.

[hank moon]

It may or may not be your fault..... but legally you are protected under the freedom of speech.

To quote one of my favorite movies from OZ: "tell 'im e's dreamin' !"

You may not go to jail or ever be held liable for what you write, but if sued, you will be a lot poorer - guaranteed...unless you have some kind of insurance, in which case its cost is making you somewhat poorer...

[Iceaxe]

Not sharing information can be just as dangerous as sharing information. I can also sue you for with holding information that would have kept me safe.... yada, yada.... This forum supports and maintains the idea that the safest approach is the have access to all useful information and let the individual make their own informed choice.

Just a little reminder....

This forum exists for the free exchange of pictures, beta, video's and information. Sharing has always been welcome and highly encouraged in this forum. Generous sharing of ideas and information is what makes uutah so popular. What a person chooses to share with others on this site is a personal choice and will be respected.

:popcorn:

[Scott Card]

Sue? :mrgreen: "You Rang?" (quoting Lurch) :haha: Hank is right to a point. You can get attorneys fees on frivolous suits. Proving a frivolous law suit is difficult though. Practically speaking, if you have shallow pockets, no lawyer is gonna be interested in you. And from what I can see from the tattered gear and holey pockets I've seen from those I know in this community, no need to worry fellers. :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

So if you get lost and hurt are you going to sue Kelsey and take his mother away? :lol8:

:popcorn:

[hank moon]

This forum exists for the free exchange of pictures, beta, video's and information. Sharing has always been welcome and highly encouraged in this forum. Generous sharing of ideas and information is what makes uutah so popular. What a person chooses to share with others on this site is a personal choice and will be respected.

"Respected?" :roflol:

Respect this: http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=57190#57190

:2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

Seems like a lawsuit that only a rich fool would attempt. So if I can't be held liable for my statements, how could anyone hope to win a lawsuit they would bring against me?

If I tell you to go jump off a cliff, and you do, and break your back, am I to blame? How is that one gonna play out in the courtroom...Speaking through a digitized voice: "Your honor, I jumped off the cliff of my own free will and choice, but he told me to do it..."

Seems pretty far-fetched.

[Iceaxe]

"Respected?" :roflol:

Well at least I'm not the one trying to make off with Kelsey's mom.

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/4.gif

[hank moon]

Seems like a lawsuit that only a rich fool would attempt. So if I can't be held liable for my statements, how could anyone hope to win a lawsuit they would bring against me?

If I tell you to go jump off a cliff, and you do, and break your back, am I to blame? How is that one gonna play out in the courtroom..."Your honor, I jumped off the cliff of my own free will and choice, but he told me to do it..."

Seems pretty far-fetched.

Not at all. First off, rich people rarely get involved in this type of suit - it's more idiotos who want to get rich off their own stupidity. Good for them there's lawyers willing to take on just about any case that smells green. Winning's not the object - getting someone to settle out of court for fear of what *might happen* in our crapshoot court system is.

[rockgremlin]

Not at all. First off, rich people rarely get involved in this type of suit - it's more idiotos who want to get rich off their own stupidity. Good for them there's lawyers willing to take on just about any case that smells green. Winning's not the object - getting someone to settle out of court for fear of what *might happen* in our crapshoot court system is.

Like Scott said....unless you're made of $$$$, any lawyer is just gonna laugh at you.

I'll take my chances...

[Iceaxe]

Hank my friend, you are missing out on the first rule..... It takes money to sue someone.

A lawyer will not take the case if he can't make a buck. So unless you have the coin to pay him a retainer for what is really an unwinnable case you are SOL.

YMMV

[Scott Card]

Seems like a lawsuit that only a rich fool would attempt. So if I can't be held liable for my statements, how could anyone hope to win a lawsuit they would bring against me?

If I tell you to go jump off a cliff, and you do, and break your back, am I to blame? How is that one gonna play out in the courtroom...Speaking through a digitized voice: "Your honor, I jumped off the cliff of my own free will and choice, but he told me to do it..."

Seems pretty far-fetched.

Frivolous.....unless the victim was of a diminished mental capacity and you were a trusted friend, parent child relationship, etc. In other words there are possible cases that would get over the frivolous argument but may still not win. You'd actually be surprised at what people want to sue for. I can't tell you how many people I have discouraged from suing either because of my overwhelming wisdom and advice ( :lol8: ) or my outrageous retainer. Problem, there are just a couple :lol8: of bad lawyers out there who are mercenary. Most of the crap cases can be found in the small claims courts.

[hank moon]

Frivolous.....unless the victim was of a diminished mental capacity and you were a trusted friend, parent child relationship, etc. In other words there are possible cases that would get over the frivolous argument but may still not win. You'd actually be surprised at what people want to sue for. I can't tell you how many people I have discouraged from suing either because of my overwhelming wisdom and advice ( :lol8: ) or my outrageous retainer. Problem, there are just a couple :lol8: of bad lawyers out there who are mercenary. Most of the crap cases can be found in the small claims courts.

Frivolous - yes, but you still have to pay to prove it.

[Iceaxe]

Most of the crap cases can be found in the small claims courts.

Small Claim's court reminds me of watching Judge Judge. You can tell within one minute who is prepared and who is going to win..... and it's never the dumbass with the frivolous lawsuit :haha:

What is the max you can now sue for in small claims?

:popcorn:

[Scott Card]

Most of the crap cases can be found in the small claims courts.

Small Claim's court reminds me of watching Judge Judge. You can tell within one minute who is prepared and who is going to win..... and it's never the dumbass with the frivolous lawsuit :haha:

What is the max you can now sue for in small claims?

:popcorn:

$7,500 (Utah Code Annotated 78-6-1)

[hank moon]

Hank my friend, you are missing out on the first rule..... It takes money to sue someone.

A lawyer will not take the case if he can't make a buck. So unless you have the coin to pay him a retainer for what is really an unwinnable case you are SOL.

YMMV

Not all lawyers require retainers or *any* money up front. Some work on contingency. To directly refute your assertion : No, all it takes is a willing lawyer.

Anyway, I'm not *just* saying "dont post junk 'cuz you may be sued" I'm also saying "don't post junk 'cuz someone might get hurt and whether it's your fault or not you will feel responsible for it - unless you're a sociopath or summat. Former post will be edited to emphasize the latter.

RG's "beta" posting seemed to me an ego thing. Hope it was worth it.

[rockgremlin]

RG's "beta" posting seemed to me an ego thing. Hope it was worth it.

Dude....it was soooooo worth it!!!! You should see the long line of chicks lined up outside my front door. The media has been going crazy trying to get a hold of me for interviews!!! I am FAMOUS!!!!!!

C'mon man...someone asked for help...I gave it.

An "ego" thing would be if I volunteered those coords without any request or provocation otherwise. I don't think we need to resort to name-calling. :nono:

[hank moon]

C'mon man...someone asked for help...I gave it.

An "ego" thing would be if I volunteered those coords without any request or provocation otherwise. I don't think we need to resort to name-calling.

No name calling as yet...but now that you mention it, I guess I'll just have to call you...Mr. Good Samaritan.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/engel/angel-smiley-027.gif

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/engel/angel-smiley-006.gifhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/engel/angel-smiley-031.gifhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/engel/angel-smiley-013.gif

[Iceaxe]

RG's "beta" posting seemed to me an ego thing. Hope it was worth it.

I see what RG did as sharing and typical of the behavior in this forum.....

Mr. Moon.... your a n00b on this forum so you are probably not used to our generous and sharing ways. If you look back through the archive's you will note that sharing and helping is standard practice around here.

Some examples from elsewhere on the forum over the past week:

http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5988
http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5958
http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5775

These are just a couple of examples of literally thousands. This is how we operate, it is not going to change, this is not your father's canyon group.

:popcorn:

[Sombeech]

Mr. Moon.... your a n00b on this forum so you are probably not used to our generous and sharing ways.

If this were a PAY site, I could see a little justification in offering only professional Trip Reports, safety precautions, exact mileage, and a packing list.

Since it's free and we're all above 13 years old, (remember that agreement you clicked on upon registering?), I think it's safe to say that we're going to investigate our destinations before taking advice from a complete stranger on the internet.

And if you're an unregistered lurker under the age of 13, find somebody to drive you, and then sue them.

[Iceaxe]

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[hank moon]

RockGremlin

I meant no disrespect by suggesting your Chambers post was ego-driven. I think it was a fair assessment given the balls-driven nature of this site (lots of fun sometimes). It is my opinion that posting the location of an R/X canyon w/o beta is likely to do more harm that good; ergo, ego. Obviously I do not know you or your true motivation

[hank moon]

Shane

We've shared a lot of good times, including an honest little epic. Why you persist in abusing friendships is beyond me...and beyond the pale.

Karma - it's what's for dinner.

hank

[rockgremlin]

Hey Hank -

No worries. I'm pretty thick skinned. I like to help out when I can, and ironically, that mindset can draw the ire of many within the canyoneering community. I mean no offense, nor mean to boast when I offer up beta....just thought I'd help out.



So......when a we doin' a canyon? :2thumbs:

[hank moon]

No worries. I'm pretty thick skinned.

Glad to hear it bounced off - mine's a little thinner, prolly.



I like to help out when I can, and ironically, that mindset can draw the ire of many within the canyoneering community. I mean no offense, nor mean to boast when I offer up beta....just thought I'd help out.

Right on. It's hard to discuss these things online anyway - best to do it over a beer and sardine burrito mid-canyon somewheres. so....


So......when a we doin' a canyon? :2thumbs:

PM sent.

[Iceaxe]

Shane

We've shared a lot of good times, including an honest little epic. Why you persist in abusing friendships is beyond me...and beyond the pale.

Karma - it's what's for dinner.

hank

Dude..... sorry to hear you feel that way. I certainly don't.... never have. Any animosity felt is totally on your part.

The n00b pic was a joke..... if it offended you I apologize. It was meant in good fun.

:2thumbs:

[nat]

Rockgremlin, I am actually curious how you got those coordinates for "Chambers", especially with 99.99% certainty? :ne_nau:

[stefan]

wow, looks like i missed a lot.


Let's say that someone -- anyone goes and does Chambers from the coords I posted -- and then gets injured because they were unprepared.

IS THAT MY FAULT?!

well, i believe that there is some level of responsibility.

it's not entirely your fault, obviously, but if it were your information that lead the person there ...
also by broadbanding it, others have access and might be drawn there too, ...
if it's a difficult canyon, this could present a problem, for example (one of many) if someone doesn't know the technical difficulties, especially in a remote area.




RG's "beta" posting seemed to me an ego thing. Hope it was worth it.
An "ego" thing would be if I volunteered those coords without any request or provocation otherwise.

generally speaking, an ego thing can manifest itself in many different forms ...

but if you say the following


C'mon man...someone asked for help...I gave it.

then i think a typical approach for these circumstances would be to PM the person ... perhaps broadbanding that it's a difficult canyon and you'd rather not broadband the coordinates. :ne_nau:


as is nat, i am curious too how you got the coordinates.

[Iceaxe]

as is nat, i am curious too how you got the coordinates.

Oh yeah.... tossing a friend and/or reliable source of beta under this bus is a brilliant idea.

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[rockgremlin]

Sheesh...now I know how Oliver North felt! :lol8:

Earlier this year, I was canyoneering with a couple of guys -- some who post here, and some who do not. I got a glimpse of an enlarged map of a part of the Roost containing four slots -- all between NFRR, and the Pasture forks. Rumors were that several of these were pretty good slots, and one resembling "a small scale version of Shenanigans was the first slot north of NFRR." The guy who owned the map doesn't post on Uutah, in fact he doesn't post on any of the canyons forums, but I'm pretty sure he lurks.

The map that Shane posted earlier in this thread highlighting the four slots with a dashed line is pretty much a carbon copy of the map that was shown me. All I had to do was pick the coords off the map for "slot #1"

[rockgremlin]

You know, the ironic thing about this thread is that, there are some folks out there who don't want this beta published, but the more they question my sources, the more popular this thread becomes. My last post explicitly describes the location of Chambers, not mentioned before in any of my other posts.

If the grilling continues, I suspect there will be bolts in Chambers before this weekend. :roflol:

[stefan]

You know, the ironic thing about this thread is that, there are some folks out there who don't want this beta published, but the more they question my sources, the more popular this thread becomes.

hmm ... it's just curiosity, man, no need to inflate its importance. just remember, some choose to keep information quiet until they publish it, which is a reasonable thing to do.


but i am far more concerned about broadbanding coordinates about difficult canyons without beta, especially in response to a photojournal entry showing enticing photos of such a canyon? i was more interested in your response to this

[rockgremlin]

but i am far more concerned about broadbanding coordinates about difficult canyons without beta, especially in response to a photojournal entry showing enticing photos of such a canyon? i was more interested in your response to this

I think my thoughts on that were summed up succinctly by Sombeech's post:


If this were a PAY site, I could see a little justification in offering only professional Trip Reports, safety precautions, exact mileage, and a packing list.

Since it's free and we're all above 13 years old, (remember that agreement you clicked on upon registering?), I think it's safe to say that we're going to investigate our destinations before taking advice from a complete stranger on the internet.

And if you're an unregistered lurker under the age of 13, find somebody to drive you, and then sue them.

[Iceaxe]

but i am far more concerned about broadbanding coordinates about difficult canyons without beta

It always amazes me when some think their skills are so superior to all others..... If you can do it and survive we can do it.

:2thumbs:

But we do appreciate the warning and your concern.

:nod:

[stefan]

but i am far more concerned about broadbanding coordinates about difficult canyons without beta

It always amazes me when some think their skills are so superior to all others..... trust me.... if you can do it and survive we can do it.

:2thumbs:

hmm ... shane, please don't put words into my mouth.

superiority? bah. i certainly don't have a complex, do you?


my concern had more to do with the unexpected use of information. hence PMing can be very useful

[stefan]

I think my thoughts on that were summed up succinctly by Sombeech's post:


...

alright, thanks for your thoughts. i hope you're right.

[Iceaxe]

my concern had more to do with the unexpected use of information. hence PMing can be very useful

You would be defeating the purpose of this forum. This forum was created for the exchange of information among responsible adults.

And let's get serious.... all the whining in this thread is really the result of a certain group of individuals who do not want the canyon published yet because it does not meet their self-serving agenda. Don't feed me all this its for safety bullshit. If you were truly concerned about safety you would have taken a minute and explain the dangers and what to be aware of.

:cool2:

[rockgremlin]

EZ there Shane...let's not polarize ourselves....too much.

:popcorn:

[nat]

You know, the ironic thing about this thread is that, there are some folks out there who don't want this beta published, but the more they question my sources, the more popular this thread becomes. My last post explicitly describes the location of Chambers, not mentioned before in any of my other posts.

If the grilling continues, I suspect there will be bolts in Chambers before this weekend. :roflol:

Hey RockGremlin, I didn't mean my question to be a "grilling". I was just honestly curious how you found the canyon. I personally don't have any problems with posting such beta. If you figure it out, you're free to do whatever you want with it. I think from Tom's latest rave posts, people should be aware that it poses some physical difficulties in terms of climbing/stemming. Personally, I don't think that people who give out beta on canyons are responsible for others getting into trouble, unless the beta is misleading (i.e. if someone says "goat canyon is a real sweet beginners slot!", when it has hours of 5.8 stemming 60ft off the deck).

[rockgremlin]

No offense Nat, however you were one of about four people who questioned me not only here but via private emails. Kinda felt like the Inquisition there....

[Scott P]

but i am far more concerned about broadbanding coordinates about difficult canyons without beta

As long as you mention it is difficult, this kind of information is useful.

For example, some of us are out there doing canyons without beta. If someone has done it and knows it do be difficult, sometimes a heads up is good to know.

Chambers is something I haven't divulged the location on simply because I was asked not too.

I had known about (but haven't done) the canyon for a very long time, several years ago, and undoubtable others have too. It's right next to some very popular canyons and right near the trailheads for them.

The reason I have not shared is because someone (in this case MK) asked me not to. When ever someone ask me not to, I do not share. I was not aware that it was a sensitive issue until after MK asked me not to share, nor did I know that this particular canyon was Chambers until SB told me it was one and the same.

Since this canyon is right next to some roads and right next to some very popular trailheads, it doesn't seem that secret, but personally, I still do not share the info.

It's coming out in a guidebook soon anyway, so won't be "secret" after that.

There are hundreds, no, thousands of other canyons out there so there is no reason to be upset if someone doesn't divulge the location of every single one on this or any other forum.

[hesse15]

RG's "beta" posting seemed to me an ego thing. Hope it was worth it.

Dude....it was soooooo worth it!!!! You should see the long line of chicks lined up outside my front door. The media has been going crazy trying to get a hold of me for interviews!!! I am FAMOUS!!!!!!

C'mon man...someone asked for help...I gave it.

An "ego" thing would be if I volunteered those coords without any request or provocation otherwise. I don't think we need to resort to name-calling. :nono:

which is your address? :bootyshake:

[Iceaxe]

Sorry about the previous rant..... I got up on my soapbox and got carried away. :soapbox:

The maps with the four slots marked that are floating around are mine. There are three or four different versions of the original map. At least a dozen people have copies. The slots have been known for sometime, the only mystery has been which slot was being called Chambers.

:popcorn:

[hesse15]

[quote=hank moon]RockGremlin

I meant no disrespect by suggesting your Chambers post was ego-driven. I think it was a fair assessment given the balls-driven nature of this site (lots of fun sometimes). It is my opinion that posting the location of an R/X canyon w/o beta is likely to do more harm that good; ergo, ego. Obviously I do not know you or your true motivation

[Iceaxe]

Hey Hesse.... welcome back! We missed you....

:ahh: :ahh: :ahh:

[hesse15]

Hey Hesse.... welcome back! We missed you....

:ahh: :ahh: :ahh:

:nod: you are so nice.
looking forward for spending the weekend with you again...... :five:


I will try to get in shape for another photos opp...... :mwink:

[stefan]

If you were truly concerned about safety you would have taken a minute and explain the dangers and what to be aware of.


in general true, unless one was asked not to or one didn't want to be responsible for information.

however, as i said, my point was concerned with broadbanding coordinates without beta. as a guidesite writer, do you consider this a good idea?

[Iceaxe]

looking forward for spending the weekend with you again...... :five:

You will get to meet my hot young stripper wife again on this trip. It should be major fun...... :nod:

[hesse15]

If you were truly concerned about safety you would have taken a minute and explain the dangers and what to be aware of.


in general true, unless one was asked not to or one didn't want to be responsible for information.

however, as i said, my point was concerned with broadbanding coordinates without beta. as a guidesite writer, do you consider this a good idea?

If you really need beta about the canyon there are tons of message about with a lot of detail and pictures in Tom website, if that is your ONLY concern
http://canylittle oneeringusa.com/rave/0703roost/indexc.htm
so here is the description from a 14 years old girl.
and pictures also.
Do you think that now also Tom is accountable for any accident because he posted all the description in a public highly advertise web-site?
And he posted the beta from a 14 years old girl eye.
and how a young girl can pass any difficulties there.

[Iceaxe]

do you consider this a good idea?

I try to help everyone on this forum with whatever they ask for, you should know that. I will supply warnings if I know them but it's not required. This is a casual setting meant for exchanging ideas.

I don't know what all the fuss with "Chambers" is about..... MK will change the name...... :lol8:

:popcorn:

[ajroadtrips]

Sheesh...now I know how Oliver North felt! :lol8:

Earlier this year, I was canyoneering with a couple of guys -- some who post here, and some who do not. I got a glimpse of an enlarged map of a part of the Roost containing four slots -- all between NFRR, and the Pasture forks. Rumors were that several of these were pretty good slots, and one resembling "a small scale version of Shenanigans was the first slot north of NFRR." The guy who owned the map doesn't post on Uutah, in fact he doesn't post on any of the canyons forums, but I'm pretty sure he lurks.

The map that Shane posted earlier in this thread highlighting the four slots with a dashed line is pretty much a carbon copy of the map that was shown me. All I had to do was pick the coords off the map for "slot #1"

rockgremlin -
Look, we need NAMES so we know who can't keep a secret. BTW rock, if we ever do a trip, I'm leaving my maps at home.... :roflol:

I'm with Scott, if asked to keep it a secret, keep it a secret. If your not keeping it a secret, be up front about who you got it from, etc...

deserthiker

[rock_ski_cowboy]

EZ there Shane...let's not polarize ourselves....too much.

Polarizing? Shane? too much? :ne_nau:

The blasting of those who are actually out finding and doing new canyons (it takes a lot more than doing a betaed canyon-- those who do so are often taking a serious risk), and occasionally sharing them, at their leisure, by those who want EASY BETA NOW ON EVERYTHING, has led to the halt of sharing. I'm not talking about "Shane doing a 'new' canyon every three or four months and putting it on his Pay Per View site so the subscriptions will keep coming in" kind of sharing. I'm talking about the "We did 5 new canyons and 5 old canyons last month. Here's some awesome pictures from them and beta for one or two of the new ones" kind of sharing. Tom posts a picture TR of Chambers with the promise to post detailed maps complete with no-brainer beta when he gets time (He's a busy man!), and even he gets blasted. No wonder he's basically stopped with the free online canyon guides-- doesn't seem to get a whole lot of gratitude from those who leech it.

Those explorers who are not guide book/site authors are learning their lesson about sharing pretty pictures of things they don't feel inclined to give away to the general public. It is not appreciated or accepted... so the sharing of pictures and clues without beta or occasional beta has slowed to a stop and peace has basically ensued. This peace is based upon the principle that as long as the masses don't know there's something they don't have, they are happy with what they have. The explorers haven't stopped exploring, they've just been whipped for sharing because they don't share everything. Its kind of sad when you can't tell an exciting story or show a pretty picture without posting a GPS coordinate, but thats what its become. Those of you sitting on your butts waiting for GPS coordinates and rappel lengths will have to wait till your guide book authors get out to those "blank spots on the map" or make some friends. Lucky for y'all I hear Kelsey's been busy.

You'll notice I'm not arguing for or against anything. Just observations from someone who hasn't done much canyoneering lately due to personal reasons, but has done some keen observing of this scene over the last several years. I've been on both sides of the fence and I know how damn irritating it is to see enticing pictures without knowing where. I also know there are legitimate reasons for keeping a canyon secret-- often out of respect for the person who shared it with you and has their own reason for keeping it on the down low. But, if you put yourself in the explorer's shoes, any reason, whether selfish or reasonable, is legit. One is free to share what he wants with whomever he wants with whatever conditions he wants. Someone refute that if I'm wrong.

To those who haven't figured it out yet, the rule has become: if you can't share it all then don't share at all.

[Iceaxe]

To those who haven't figured it out yet, the rule has become: if you can't share it all then don't share at all.

Didn't we learn that back in kindergarten..... :ne_nau:

And I always thought the rule was: The only way three guys can keep a secret is if two of them are dead.

:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:

[rockgremlin]

rockgremlin -
Look, we need NAMES so we know who can't keep a secret. BTW rock, if we ever do a trip, I'm leaving my maps at home.... :roflol:

I'm with Scott, if asked to keep it a secret, keep it a secret. If your not keeping it a secret, be up front about who you got it from, etc...

deserthiker

If requested to keep things a secret, I would respectfully do so. The map and beta I got was passed around casually, and no requests to keep it a secret was stated nor implied. Like I said, I've known about it for several months now, and only divulged it's location when asked.

Oh yeah, and crucify my source by naming names? :nono: I don't think so.

[Iceaxe]

Now I have a question???

Who exactly were you guys keeping these slots a secret from? It looks to me like everyone already knew about them and was keeping them secret from each other..... :roflol:

:popcorn:

[hank moon]

These are just a couple of examples of literally thousands. This is how we operate, it is not going to change, this is not your father's canyon group.

Hi Shane

The n00b thing

[Iceaxe]

so throw me a bone wilya?

I sent you a PM last night. It should be in your message box.... everything is cool with me.

I still love ya :feelgood:

[Jaxx]

Lets just agree that I have the biggest wiener and we can all argue over that. :2thumbs: :roflol: :popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

It would be more productive to do a stress analysis on Rapunzel's hair. Would it really hold the prince's weight? What is it anchored to? If he slipped, would it break?

:five:

[Scott Card]

It would be more productive to do a stress analysis on Rapunzel's hair. Would it really hold the prince's weight? What is it anchored to? If he slipped, would it break?

:five:

Tiblocs or jumars?

[hank moon]

OK, now this opens up a whole new topic. Let's say that someone -- anyone goes and does Chambers from the coords I posted -- and then gets injured because they were unprepared.

IS THAT MY FAULT?!

IF they get hurt, it's probably not gonna be in Chambers. I haven't seen anything in this thread yet that would lead anyone to the slot. Ironic, eh?

[Iceaxe]

I haven't seen anything in this thread yet that would lead anyone to the slot.

:roll:

Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.

[rock_ski_cowboy]

IF they get hurt, it's probably not gonna be in Chambers. I haven't seen anything in this thread yet that would lead anyone to the slot. Ironic, eh?

:roflol:

Alright. I'm going to reveal the secret to end all canyoneering secrets. I will have no friends left when I'm done, but it needs to be done. Here goes.

Shane's map on the first page of this thread hints at the secret but I'll give it away in case anyone missed the hint. You want to do "secret" canyons? Here's what you do. You look at google earth or other suitable "sattelite map" for slot canyons. When you find a slot canyon that isn't in a guide book you find it on your Topo map software and draw a red-dotted line. You write in big red letters "Warning: Unexplored slots could be R-rated" in case anyone sees your map and tries to do the canyon before you, for obvious liability reasons. Then you put on your canyoneering thong and go "HIT IT". Return and share GPS coordinates. Repeat. Canyon does not have to be explored in person to share GPS coordinates, as long as it looks like a slot on google earth you are encouraged to share your find, and are not liable as long as you warn others that it could be R-rated.

Warning: Unexplored slot canyons could be R-Rated.

PS
I am not liable for saying you are not liable. If you are liable, then I am not liable for your liability.

[hank moon]

I haven't seen anything in this thread yet that would lead anyone to the slot.

:roll:

Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.


None of the maps or coords given have confirmed its location. Sure, head out there and follow them little red lines...might find something good. :haha:

http://picasaweb.google.com/onkaluna/LiLFanger/photo?authkey=f5DANaO0O3E#5050441578557276178

[Sombeech]

Isn't the whole argument that he posted coordinates to the canyon?

[denaliguide]

i thought it was more of a "if you don't show me yours, i won"t show you mine" argument.

[Scott Card]

Warning: Unexplored slot canyons could be R-Rated.

PS
I am not liable for saying you are not liable. If you are liable, then I am not liable for your liability. You have a future in law with that kind of jibberish :lol8:

[rock_ski_cowboy]

You have a future in law with that kind of jibberish :lol8: Hope so. Starting at GW in August. :2thumbs:

[Scott Card]

You have a future in law with that kind of jibberish :lol8: Hope so. Starting at GW in August. :2thumbs: Whoa!! Well, there goes the neighborhood :lol8: Congrats!!!!

[hank moon]

Isn't the whole argument that he posted coordinates to the canyon?

More like he thought he did (with a mysterious degree of certainty).

[stefan]

If you really need beta about the canyon there are tons of message about with a lot of detail and pictures in Tom website,


okay, but not enough to go on to be safe for general consumption



if that is your ONLY concern


my concern is that the alleged coordinates of a canyon have been broadbanded by someone who has not been down the canyon. IMHO i don't believe that it's responsible to do this. the coordinates are assumed to be correct because of something someone heard from someone else. if the coordinates are wrong you could be leading someone down a canyon with difficulties that they may not be prepared for. if they are correct, then the two raves shouldn't be considered beta and *may* in fact be very much incomplete even for *some* (but not all) "experienced canyoneers."

i'd say, if you're not going to post sufficient beta, then PM coordinates rather than broadband it. if you post the coordinates then post the beta also. and don't expect others, who might have descended the canyon, to corroborate the location or to post beta for you since you have none or offer none. [but i understand some don't feel it necessary to do so.]

my concern is that it's irresponsible. i am not worried about the folks who know enough to go in there and be safe enough. i believe there is a responsibility to posting insufficient information which can be used improperly by others who might view this forum.

if you post sufficient/proper beta + coordinates, then i believe you've fulfilled your responsibility of presenting the inherent difficulties of the canyon which you are leading folks into.

i just thinks it's wiser to be on the safe side, and only guide people to a location with sufficient beta. i am sorry if many of you disagree.



Do you think that now also Tom is accountable for any accident because he posted all the description in a public highly advertise web-site?


i don't think tom's responsible for someone's descending a canyon based on rave information. raves are stories and aren't intended to be proper beta for mass consumption.

to the degree that canyon conditions may change at any time, tom shane, and whoever else, are responsible for presenting proper (i.e. sufficient) information about the inherent difficulties/obstacles of a canyon, if they are posting/publishing route descriptions with coordinates, maps, descriptions ...

again i think this applies to broadbanding information.




And he posted the beta from a 14 years old girl eye. and how a young girl can pass any difficulties there.

i reject the premise of your suggestion.

also, i think you confuse beta with story. there is a difference.

[rockgremlin]

:bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse: :bueller: :deadhorse:

[hesse15]

okay, but not enough to go on to be safe for general consumption
my concern is that the alleged coordinates of a canyon have been broadbanded by someone who has not been down the canyon. IMHO i don't believe that it's responsible to do this. the coordinates are assumed to be correct because of something someone heard from someone else. if the coordinates are wrong you could be leading someone down a canyon with difficulties that they may not be prepared for. if they are correct, then the two raves shouldn't be considered beta and *may* in fact be very much incomplete even for *some* (but not all) "experienced canyoneers."
i'd say, if you're not going to post sufficient beta, then PM coordinates rather than broadband it. if you post the coordinates then post the beta also. and don't expect others, who might have descended the canyon, to corroborate the location or to post beta for you since you have none or offer none. [but i understand some don't feel it necessary to do so.]
my concern is that it's irresponsible. i am not worried about the folks who know enough to go in there and be safe enough. i believe there is a responsibility to posting insufficient information which can be used improperly by others who might view this forum.
if you post sufficient/proper beta + coordinates, then i believe you've fulfilled your responsibility of presenting the inherent difficulties of the canyon which you are leading folks into.
i just thinks it's wiser to be on the safe side, and only guide people to a location with sufficient beta. i am sorry if many of you disagree
i don't think tom's responsible for someone's descending a canyon based on rave information. raves are stories and aren't intended to be proper beta for mass consumption.
to the degree that canyon conditions may change at any time, tom shane, and whoever else, are responsible for presenting proper (i.e. sufficient) information about the inherent difficulties/obstacles of a canyon, if they are posting/publishing route descriptions with coordinates, maps, descriptions ...
again i think this applies to broadbanding information.
i reject the premise of your suggestion.
also, i think you confuse beta with story. there is a difference.


i talked with somebody else that share your views, about people posting locations of canyons they DID not descend,


About just put coordinate and no beta:
if i took some random picture, i took a topo map with a suppose slot, and i put in the internet telling " it is a 2 naked chicks cool canyon"
and somebody go there and die......or get lost.

In Europe we called "natural selection"
if I swear or gave a friend false beta , i am accountable for it .

With just a map or gps coordinate i think anybody with brain more than a chiken is suppose to carry :enough ropes to fix any drop in case of retreat, bolt kit and enough skilled to be prepare for any kind of situations.
if you are not into that, just wait for when it will be in a book and will have all the "beta" you need.

I usually love to do well explored canyons that saw a lot of traffic , but also in those the conditions change over time.

last summer i was doing good day jim and were in the website was a walk, after a flood become a pothole 5 meters keeper(similar to quandary).
so I was lucky that I had a "human bolt kit" with me, otherwise will not be a fun thing to pass.

So this sport still require skills and responsabilities, i think the only situation "safe" is Zion, anything else out there can totally change with :water flood , rock falls, log jams
So you always need to be prepared.
and anybody older than 18 is accountable for their own decisions,including getting into a slot with just a gps coordinates.

[Caddis]

How many people have gone down heaps by accident with the correct coords? etc... etc... You can't stop anyone from screwing up or hurting themselves no matter how much correct info they gather.

There are idiots everywhere. Everybody gets hit by the idiot stick sooner or later.

[Scott P]

I try to help everyone on this forum with whatever they ask for, you should know that.

We shall see. Please post the coordinates of Cameltoe on this message. Not a link, but the actual coordinates. :wink:

Testing.............


I don't know what all the fuss with "Chambers" is about..... MK will change the name......

Actually, in this case, whoever tagged the name "Chambers" was the one doing the name changing. The "Bull Canyon" name actually existed long before "Chambers", though I have to admit that there are already enough Bull Canyons out there.

[stefan]

With just a map or gps coordinate i think anybody with brain more than a chiken is suppose to carry :enough ropes to fix any drop in case of retreat, bolt kit and enough skilled to be prepare for any kind of situations.
if you are not into that, just wait for when it will be in a book and will have all the "beta" you need.

i agree.


last summer i was doing good day jim and were in the website was a walk, after a flood become a pothole 5 meters keeper(similar to quandary).
so I was lucky that I had a "human bolt kit" with me, otherwise will not be a fun thing to pass.

as i understand it, the author did the canyon under different conditions and was advised, prior to the posting of the route description, that there was currently a keeper.



So you always need to be prepared.
and anybody older than 18 is accountable for their own decisions,including getting into a slot with just a gps coordinates.

i agree with you ... in general. i guess i subscribe to the idea that when posting/broadbanding information one should err on the safe side and try to avoid the misuse of information. i realize there are many sides to this issue and others feel differently.

[hesse15]

I try to help everyone on this forum with whatever they ask for, you should know that.

We shall see. Please post the coordinates of Cameltoe on this message. Not a link, but the actual coordinates. :wink:

Testing.............


I don't know what all the fuss with "Chambers" is about..... MK will change the name......

Actually, in this case, whoever tagged the name "Chambers" was the one doing the name changing. The "Bull Canyon" name actually existed long before "Chambers", though I have to admit that there are already enough Bull Canyons out there.

I think is time to recognize that the canyon we are talking about was STOLEN from MK , that found it after countless hours of hiking, esploring and studying the territory, and naiivly told somebody where was it, asking to keep it secret and that "somebody" for reason unknown cannot keep the word just tell the location to other people, until a place that was suppose to be a secret now seems on the list of everybody.

[rockgremlin]

I think is time to recognize that the canyon we are talking about was STOLEN from MK , that found it after countless hours of hiking, esploring and studying the territory, and naiivly told somebody where was it, asking to keep it secret and that "somebody" for reason unknown cannot keep the word just tell the location to other people, until a place that was suppose to be a secret now seems on the list of everybody.

How do you know? Did you ask Kelsey?

[hesse15]

last summer i was doing good day jim and were in the website was a walk, after a flood become a pothole 5 meters keeper(similar to quandary).
so I was lucky that I had a "human bolt kit" with me, otherwise will not be a fun thing to pass.




as i understand it, the author did the canyon under different conditions and was advised, prior to the posting of the route description, that there was currently a keeper.


yes my partners were preparred for it (carrying potshot bags), but to be a responsible canyonette i tried to read the not yet updated description and I was the surprised one!!!
but that was an example of how canyons change , and I like as a chick to be a little dramatic..... :blahblah:
but i usually go with people that can have enough skill that can make also grandma go trough a 4bX/R canyon safely!!!

if she can keep with them hiking.....
damn speed racers strong legs...... :cripple:

[hesse15]

I think is time to recognize that the canyon we are talking about was STOLEN from MK , that found it after countless hours of hiking, esploring and studying the territory, and naiivly told somebody where was it, asking to keep it secret and that "somebody" for reason unknown cannot keep the word just tell the location to other people, until a place that was suppose to be a secret now seems on the list of everybody.

How do you know? Did you ask Kelsey?

MK likes bikini canyonettes....I think it :cool2: remind him his traveling in Europe.

[nosivad_bor]

How can you steal a canyon from someone who does not own it?

[Iceaxe]

I think is time to recognize that the canyon we are talking about was STOLEN from MK , that found it

I didn't even know the canyon was lost... :ne_nau:

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[hesse15]

How can you steal a canyon from someone who does not own it?
it is true , is public land, so the government own it.
so how do you call when somebody find something after a lot of research and ask you to do not disclose until he tell you you can?
and you broke your word?
and others after getting that location from a your broken word they got ownership of it and intentionally rename it beside the place was already name it and do not gave any credits to the first discover?
:nono:
:twisted:

[Iceaxe]

and others after getting that location from a your broken word

Hold on there sister.... you are assuming a lot. Who ever said someone broke their word and released details of the canyon?

The slots were fairly well known, it just took someone with knowledge to combine the location, pictures and name. Happens all the time.

:popcorn:

[ajroadtrips]

How can you steal a canyon from someone who does not own it?

steal (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/steal)

1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.

...

This, unfortunately, seems to occur with some regularity in the canyon community where by one person finds a new canyon, but the information is leaked and dispersed before the initial finder has a chance to share the information of his own accord. Credit is not given to the original finder. I would lump beta into definition #2 above.

Certainly I would bet most guidebook or website authors have had this occur. Generally the person(s) involved know they are sharing information against the wishes of the finder.

It's very poor form in my book, and seems to be ego driven. Finding and doing new canyons is a substantial amount of work. Those that do it, generally do it out of a passion for the desert. Those that are always trolling for the "hidden secret" to share and call their own are motivated by ego, not a passion for the desert.

[Iceaxe]

Please post the coordinates of Cameltoe on this message.

Happy to hold your hand and give you all the help you need for $25.

:2thumbs:

[hesse15]

and others after getting that location from a your broken word

Hold on there sister.... you are assuming a lot. Who ever said someone broke their word and released details of the canyon?

The slots were fairly well known, it just took someone with knowledge to combine the location, pictures and name. Happens all the time.

:popcorn:
yeah perhaps i am just assuming, i think is part of my extra X chromosome . :haha:

It is true the good canyons are there almost a million year, but they are sparce (?) together with other gazillion slots that look the same on the maps and they are not good.


I hate to hike miles and miles on the damn slick rock up and down , with tons of webbing and tons of rope, to get to a remote little area , and get there is just to look an open insignificant drop to nothing, so i have to hike all the way back , and i lost a lot of money in gas and another of my precious weekend.
So i love (and i think 99% of the canyoneers out there) to know : where is the canyon, if it any good and which lenght of rope i need to carry.

so out there there is the 1% of canyoneers that for reason like : love of exploring, work or whatever , they do that.


so it is true 100% of canyons out there are available for free in a topo map.
but we all know that all of the unknown one are now pretty far away from main roads and require a bit of work to get there.
and we all like the easy way, what do you think?

[Scott P]

I think is time to recognize that the canyon we are talking about was STOLEN from MK , that found it after countless hours of hiking, esploring and studying the territory, and naiivly told somebody where was it, asking to keep it secret and that "somebody" for reason unknown cannot keep the word just tell the location to other people, until a place that was suppose to be a secret now seems on the list of everybody.

MK is a friend of mine, but I admit that he himself has done that same thing above to me a few times. I do remember asking him to keep some canyons I had found and expored a secret, but of course I was surprised when the Colorado Plateau 4th edition came out with some of the canyons I had found and asked to be kept secret were both in the book and near the top of the "Best Hikes list."

Now I learned to share only the ones that I wouldn't mind having in a guidebook and some I invite and welcome them to be in the guidebook.

I still am friends with Mike and go with him, but canyoneers in general are not that great at keeping secrets. I still share with him at times too, but only the ones I wouldn't mind having in the guidebook.

If asked, however, I will keep a secret even if the others are doing the same for me when I ask them. Deserthiker is one I know that can keep a secret. Other's too. Some can't, but you just learn to live with it and not share it unless you don't mind it being shared. If I already had done or known the canyon before someone is calling it secret, that's a bit different though.


This, unfortunately, seems to occur with some regularity in the canyon community where by one person finds a new canyon, but the information is leaked and dispersed before the initial finder has a chance to share the information of his own accord.

The worse thing that happens is when you do all the work and share it in the hopes that the person will go with you to finish the canyon and then they go do it without you. This has happened several times to me.

If I have already completed the canyon, I don't care so much.

I still do not mind sharing beta on many canyons I have found on my own, and do so. However, if I am ever shown or told about a canyon, and are asked not to share, I won't. I only share canyons that I found on my own, not that anyone has told me about. It's good ethics in my opinion.


so it is true 100% of canyons out there are available for free in a topo map.

Not so. There are many, many slot canyons that don't show up at all on the topo maps.


Happy to hold your hand and give you all the help you need for $25.

I was just testing you to see if you would post the coordinates for free. I am not interested in that particular canyon. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

but we all know that all of the unknown one are now pretty far away from main roads and require a bit of work to get there.
and we all like the easy way, what do you think?

I think you are assuming too much again.... within the last year or so we have seen Zero-G, Cameltoe, High Spur, Chambers, Rock and a bunch of other canyons become "known" and all are next to roads. A couple next to paved roads......

Also, I think some forget that really only a very small percentage of the canyon community follow the forums on a regular bases and most could care less what the opinions of the forums are.

Heck, MK is probably the biggest name in canyoneering and he never participates in any forum.

Food for thought....

:popcorn:

[hank moon]

It's very poor form in my book, and seems to be ego driven. Finding and doing new canyons is a substantial amount of work. Those that do it, generally do it out of a passion for the desert. Those that are always trolling for the "hidden secret" to share and call their own are motivated by ego, not a passion for the desert.

Very well put, Ryan. This is the best synopsis of the situation I've read. This entire discussion has morphed into a "personal responsibility" jag. Agree with Rckgrmln that horse is dead. I haven't yet read a serious argument FOR posting maps and coordinates of the canyon under discussion...even when such maps and coords don't even reveal its precise location. The stench of ego is high...

[hesse15]

Heck, MK is probably the biggest name in canyoneering and he never participates in any forum.

Food for thought....

:popcorn:
that is true,
but i found MK a fascinating interesting old man, very considerate and gentle always worried about his partners.
And hearing his stories from his trip around the world are so amusing.

Mk i thing got tired of always been criticized by total strangers, that i think now he prefers the low profile appearance.
[quote="scott"]
I am sorry to hear that he put the stuff in the book, but Mk pay his bills and food out of the books.
So I think after so many years you know him a little you must know that he will do that.

Deserthiker: i can confirm the guy is a tomb when is about keep a secret....I tried EVERY thing but nothing work.....
disappointing disappointing :frustrated: :frustrated:

[Iceaxe]

The stench of ego is high...

Without a doubt that is one of the most narrow minded views I have ever seen.... I can think of a lot of reasons....

Fame, encourage, fortune, prestige, help, glory, ego, assist, aid, reputation, distinction, lend a hand, money, support, promote, chicks, free beer....

:popcorn:

[rockgremlin]

The stench of ego is high...

Without a doubt that is one of the most narrow minded views I have ever seen.... I can think of a lot of reasons....

Fame, encourage, fortune, prestige, help, glory, ego, assist, aid, reputation, distinction, lend a hand, money, support, promote, chicks, free beer....

:popcorn:



AGREED!!!!


That said..... :deadhorse: :deadhorse::deadhorse:

[Iceaxe]

Have fun.... I'm out of this thread...

http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

[denaliguide]

so if poaching the coordinates and posting is ego driven, then is keeping them secret until someone can publish them financially driven? perhaps one is just as bad as the other? just give it up. this is just so much drivel. :argue: :wedgie:

[hank moon]

The stench of ego is high...

Without a doubt that is one of the most narrow minded views I have ever seen.... I can think of a lot of reasons....

Fame, encourage, fortune, prestige, help, glory, ego, assist, aid, reputation, distinction, lend a hand, money, support, promote, chicks, free beer....



We just happen to have different views of what "ego" means. Nearly all of the words you used above fall into the "ego" category.

[hank moon]

Have fun.... I'm out of this thread...

http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

Truth hurts.

[stefan]

i wonder what happened to diabolic :ne_nau:

[denaliguide]

i wonder what happened to diabolic :ne_nau:

if he was smart he just took his ball and went home. thats what i would have done.

[Udink]

i wonder what happened to diabolic :ne_nau:
He probably got injured in Chambers, and is now thumbing through the yellow pages looking for an attorney. :haha:

[hank moon]

i wonder what happened to diabolic :ne_nau:
He probably got injured in Chambers, and is now thumbing through the yellow pages looking for an attorney. :haha:

Nah. He got bit by a rattlesnake while looking for Chambers...and then what you said...

[hesse15]

i wonder what happened to diabolic :ne_nau:
He probably got injured in Chambers, and is now thumbing through the yellow pages looking for an attorney. :haha:
that is funny :roflol: :roflol:
no really does anybody know diabolik?
he is a famous italian comic carachter, so just wandering if some other lost italian soul wandering in the land of Zion.
:ne_nau: